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ESN alternatives to D05, T05H |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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Posted: 06/07/2019 at 12:59pm |
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I am pleasantly surprised by the new 50 deg + ESN alternatives to D05 & T05H. I have tried:
The ones I have not tried are Omega 7 Tour, Omega 7 China, Gewo Nexxus EL Pro 52, Rhyzer R50, etc. At 42 deg point, ESN is better than Tenergy, IMHO (R42 vs T05FX). At 45-46 deg point, T05 is better than alternatives (Omega V Europe, etc). But the best quality competition is at the >50 sponge hardness level. Good to know that Butterfly has some competition. Would love to hear from others who use rubbers of similar hardness.
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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The victas rubbers are right up there as well, and probably better! I think they generate more spin than tenergy, but perhaps are not as fast.
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notfound123
Gold Member Joined: 01/18/2008 Location: MD, USA Status: Offline Points: 1025 |
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V15 Extra generates more spin than the Tenergy. Haven't had enough playing time with T05H but it definitely produces more spin than T05. Liam Pitchford just signed with Victas and as a result switched from T05 to V15 Extra.
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nv42
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2013 Location: india Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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I've been using the El pro 53 since a few weeks, working amazingly well. Felt pretty similar to t05H, just a whole lot more easier to use since the topsheet is less spin sensitive. I only need a short Stroke to create good quality topspins that land quite deep on the other side of the table. Extremely easy to hit through heavy topspin or backspin, as long as they are at net level or higher, while its not so easy to lift low balls as you can't get any extra quality/spin since you can't penetrate the sponge then. Extremely good for players with short strokes and quick movement.
Also, topsheet only loops aren't as spinny t05H, or h3 ofcourse. I still find the aurus, rakza, hexer, genius gen rubbers best for people with topsheet heavy loops.
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1.dhs pg2 fl
-FH t05h (max) -BH tibhar genius (max) |
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AMonteiro
Platinum Member Joined: 01/30/2007 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 2042 |
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I've been playing with ESN hard rubbers for a while after using T05 both sides.
Target Pro GT X51 is still one of my favorite. Not super fast but very spinny and durable. Lightly boosted have a better speed/spin ratio compared to T05 also with better stability on short game, less bouncy. Rakza X is very close to Pro GT X51, just a little bit softer (50º x 51º). Great rubber as well. Now I use Rhyzer Pro 50 both sides, lightly boosted (1 layer of TRF). Same spin compared to X51 but a tad faster.. Great rubber overall.
I tried T05H from my students, great spin and control without booster. Harder compared to ESN 50, so it is slower on slow and mid gears. But I was not impressed compared to Nexxus Hard 53, for exemple. Dignigs 05 I have never tried but talking with some pro players I know, it's not a game changer from BTY. Just between the hardness of Tenergy05 and Tenergy 05 Hard. It could have been called Tenergy 05 Mid Hard as well |
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Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR
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nv42
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2013 Location: india Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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1.dhs pg2 fl
-FH t05h (max) -BH tibhar genius (max) |
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AMonteiro
Platinum Member Joined: 01/30/2007 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 2042 |
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To be honest, none of them (Nexxus 53 or T05H) impressed me not because they are bad but because 50º both sides feels just right for me. I feel that with 53º I have to put much more energy on my strokes to get what I want. I would be ok if I was younger and well trained because now I teach more than train myself.
But overall T05H is not a lot better compared to Nexxus 53. I feel that ESN is very close in performance and the price we can buy these rubbers is very atractive. I found T05H a little bit faster at mid range compared to NXX53. In my opinion, 53 ESN rubbers or T05H are for 2 type of players:
- High level players and profissionals that need a very hard and fast rubbers that suports their powerfull strokes and some layers of booster - Amateurs that prefer very hard rubbers that can be better controled close to the table compared to more lively ESN rubbers around 48-50º or Tenergy original series. Just because these hard rubbers can be very powerfull in right hands or very controled on lower skilled hands. Take Hurricane as an exemple. |
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Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR
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nv42
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2013 Location: india Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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Ah! Got it, great response! Thanks man! :)
Also, the nexxus El pro 50 and 53( the hard series basically) have a different topsheet composition than the regular nexxus. Its more of an opaque colour like the new gen stuff from other brands as opposed to the translucent colour of the nex 38, 43 and 48. They still have the same pip structure, however the new new opaque topsheet feels a bit harder and doesn't chip as easy.
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1.dhs pg2 fl
-FH t05h (max) -BH tibhar genius (max) |
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mischasln
Super Member Joined: 09/18/2016 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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So, what's your consensus after trying the aforementioned rubbers compared to T05? I'm also interested in buying a T05 alternative and took a closer look to the Rasanter R50, the MX-P 50 as well as Gewo's Nexxus EL Pro 50. What would your 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice be?
Edited by mischasln - 06/08/2019 at 6:41am |
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Mickael
Silver Member Joined: 10/30/2011 Location: World Status: Offline Points: 794 |
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why there is a big gap between t05h , dignics and the rest for example r50 , v15 extra gt x51 is the huge weight difference. why esn cannot make a rubber hard as dignics for example and be of the same weight? there is always 6 grams difference in one sheet! assuming you want to change rubbers back and forth between esn and butterfly keeping the same blade, it is really annoying and unplayable.
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Nittaku Acoustic Carbon FL
Butterfly Dignics 05 2.1 FH Butterfly Dignics 05 2.1 BH |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4227 |
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I think R47 is closer to T05 than R50. R50 might be similar to T05H.
Personally, I prefer R47 more than T05 ever their prices are the same.
Edited by kindof99 - 06/08/2019 at 8:18am |
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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Honestly, dont you guys think R47 sucks compared to Tenergy. It's no substitute if you ask me. Low level players might not be able to tell the difference, but over 1900 or so should be able to notice a big difference between Rasanter and Tenergy. R47 vs T05, I'd take T05 every time and I don't even like T05 all that much. R47 sucks.
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Nope, it's great. It's not the same of course and there are differences. But if you think that amateur players can't play a typical topspin game at roughly the same level (after an adjustment period) with either rubber then I think you're mad.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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Well, one of my usual practice partners played on the Junior National team in Denmark 5 or 6 years ago. He's played with both R47 and T05 on the forehand recently. When he plays with R47, I can and have beaten him. When he plays with T05, I have no chance. I'm lucky to even get one game. That has to say something.
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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vik2000
Super Member Joined: 06/29/2018 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 264 |
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Don't think this is the experience for most people.
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I think you can make it fit lots of different narratives, depending on what you're trying to push. Could be that it doesn't suit his style. Or he hasn't fully adjusted to it. Or his style with that rubber is more comfortable for you to play against, personally. I could go on. But it doesn't show some innate superiority for tenergy imo. Otherwise you wouldn't see pros using anything else, but we do.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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Actually, he didn't play for several years. Upon coming back to table tennis, he started off with R47. He played it for around 4 months. He beat me in most of the matches during that time period, but I could keep it close and get a match here and there. He changed to T05, and from day 1 I didn't have a chance.
Honestly, I tried using R47 before and I also didn't like it. You can't close the racket angle very much or the ball just drops to the ground. The sweet spot isn't that big. It shrinks quite a bit and the sponge loses its oomph after just 3 or 4 weeks. I find Baracuda to be more Dynamic and more durable than R47. I don't honestly think there are too many high level professionals who use it. Say, top 200. Are there any using R47? We do see pros using other rubbers, but R47 isn't high on the popularity list at that level. Edited by ericd937 - 06/08/2019 at 12:33pm |
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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There are quite a few pros using the Rasanter series, mostly R50.
I don't know what to say to you beyond what I've already said. You may not like it, perfectly fair of course. But it say it sucks in comparison with rubber X which you happen to like is just your own point of view. One which is pretty extreme, again just my own point of view of course.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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Actually, i don't even like T05 all that much. I'd rather play T80 or even T64, which are more forgiving. I also think the newer series of ESN, like Gewo Nexxus EL Pro 48, plays better than the R47 generation. I haven't played R50 or the other rubbers that hard from ESN, so I can't really say anything about that.
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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jpenmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 12/24/2008 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 2176 |
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I like the harder 50 degree ESN rubbers but still prefer Dignics(Spinart FX). I liked R50 and MX-P 50 but for me the issue was weight. They are much heavier than Dignics . I'm sure i could adjust after some training time but for me personally it wasn't worth it as I feel Dignics still has more spin and suits my stroke better. T05 is still king in the next hardness scale down. As for the softer stuff ESN is better . FX-P is quite fun to play.
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OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Dignics is really interesting - plays hard-ish/fast, high spin, but the weight is reasonable. If it wasn't for the price....
Personal preference is always the winner, but I really feel that any huge performance gap has been closed between Tenergy and ESN. Now the differences are minor, but noticeable enough that people will stick with what they just feel they like best, and there's nothing wrong with that. I recently gave T05H another go and it was great, but I didn't feel like it was doing anything more than other rubbers I'd been using over the last few years and it made no difference to wins/losses or how I felt during training. I look around my peers, and the players at the next 2,3,4 levels above me and there's a real mix of stuff being used. MX-P (some using 50 degree now), R47/R50, some Bluefire, lots of Tenergy of course, still a good bunch of H3 on forehand (presumably boosted). There's a decent mix at the pro level as well. I think this is healthy for the sport overall, and a decent sign that Tenergy is a great rubber amongst other great rubbers, and pretty much anything which suits a style could be used in theory by the majority of amateurs.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Do realize at the pro level, what the pro is being paid does affect the equipment they use. I suspect Pitchford is an example of that but in general, people below the top 10 don't get paid much by Butterfly because Butterfly knows it has already got a large market share and those guys barely contribute to it. So many pros use other stuff because some of the other companies will pay them more than Butterfly does to use their stuff. It is a difficult conversation sometimes for the pros who need more money from their equipment deal but want to use Tenergy (where they will get the rubbers but no real cash for using it). If they signed with someone else, they would get more money and marketing than they do with Butterfly. So they make a switch. Not saying this is true in every case, but it is something to think about when you think that because a pro is using something, it implies it is what they chose to use. Sometimes they chose it because they are paid better to use it than they would if they used Tenergy and that is the most important thing for them.
Edited by NextLevel - 06/08/2019 at 6:49pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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bard romance
Gold Member Joined: 02/18/2016 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 1185 |
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This x100 - also note that some pros on ESN rubber deals are changing the rubbers damn close to daily, no exaggeration, and thus they never have to deal with the inevitable performance drop off that us normal folks would start experiencing after a few short weeks with many ESN selections.
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notfound123
Gold Member Joined: 01/18/2008 Location: MD, USA Status: Offline Points: 1025 |
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Correct.. The sponge is hard and requires proper looping technique. Chicken wing or arm only loops won't work. Another reason why I keep it on at least one blade is it can make spin even in hot/humid conditions. I've been using it on and off for several months and just switched back to it b/c our club has been too hot and humid way too often lately (mxp becomes a slippery mess when it's humid outside).
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AndySmith
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I understand that using Pros as any kind of relative measure is highly problematic. What I would point out is that I see a lot of amateurs use Butterfly as a special case because of their volume of use at Pro level, and I think that's flawed for all sorts of reasons. I also see a lot of people use highly suspect, one-sided arguments against other manufacturers when looking at the Pro level, and I think that's simply unfair.
Ultimately, I think you should be very careful about how Pro equipment use can be applied to amateur equipment selection. But people could at least be even handed with their reasoning. Any argument about how often Pros change rubber, or if they "have" to boost to make their equipment competitive, could equally be applied to Butterfly as it is to ESN, or anything else (perhaps H3 being a special case of "probably gets boosted all the time"). My position, to clear up any misconception, is that a reasonable number of Pros use ESN. If the baseline (day 1) performance of ESN rubber was really so much worse (as in, nerfs their game) than Brand X, they wouldn't use it. If it's slightly worse, perhaps their contract is worth enough to offset that, but even if that represents some real-world measurable performance hit to a Pro, what is the real-world impact on an amateur? Negligible, I would say. A 5% drop is major to a Pro, hardly anything to most amateurs. From that point, any argument about having to boost, durability, (or cost) not being a factor for Pros (which is probably correct) should also be applied across the board, including Butterfly. I don't think we can take much value from what the Pros use, but what we can take is that there is a mix of manufacturer use, non-Butterfly gets used at the very highest level, if there is any real-world performance hit by that use then it's small at Pro level (meaning even smaller at amateur level), and we can't take much valuable info about durability from it (for any manufacturer). My argument, boiled down, is that amateurs read far too much into Butterfly's dominance at Pro level and use it to justify their own equipment selection rather than pick something that just works for them. And there's nothing wrong with picking Tenergy because it fits your own game nicely of course. But trying another manufacturer for a bit and deciding that it "sucks" unilaterally is taking a fairly complex situation with lots of shades of grey and over-simplifying it.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AndySmith
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Durability is a personal evaluation as well. I don't see a high drop-off after "a few short weeks" with my rubber, but this depends on technique, level, expectations. Each player needs to make their own mind up about durability, and we shouldn't look to Pros for help with this because it isn't relevant to them. For ESN v Tenergy, IMO Tenergy used to have a massive advantage for durability when it was T05 vs (for example) Donic Coppa or Macro Era. That was a long time ago, and back then the prices were pretty much the same (edit - meaning when Tenergy was released it wasn't much more expensive than ESN). Now ESN durability is much better, and Tenergy prices have rocketed. I can get 2 sheets of ESN vs one sheet of Tenergy, but there's no way I would claim than Tenergy has double the durability of R47 (from my highly average amateur use position).
Edited by AndySmith - 06/10/2019 at 5:34am |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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I use R47 on my FH. I do rotate between a number of blades. I have not had a sheet "go bad" on my yet over 6 months. I also have not noticed a difference between older sheets and new ones applied to other blades. Durability has been excellent.
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NextLevel
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I don't know whether the difference in Tenergy vs. best ESN or reasonable ESN is really 5% if the issue is soin production and shot quality. But my point is that straightforwardly talking about what pros use without understanding how compensation drives some of that can misleading. That some pros switched to Butterfly to stick with T05 (Freitas and Appolonia) is telling. That some pros have also gone the other way (Koki Niwa, Paul Drinkhall and now Pitchford) is a reminder that this can be complicated. But I just brought this up be cause I felt your simply referring to what pros use without remembering their incentives to use those things required some nuanced. I personally agree that blind usage of Tenergy is not necessary but I also think it isn't unreasonable for someone to try to copy what a pro uses as their baseline. I think following the experts is a necessary Consequence Of division Of labor. But if you ask me, I will say that Tenergy is not necessary but if you think u can use it go for it. But I would not recommend it to an adult learner given my experiences. But it has more to do with passive game than active game and whether I would really feel happier playing $100 for a rubber when I can get 4 for $120. Edited by NextLevel - 06/10/2019 at 11:27am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AndySmith
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Well, that's it exactly. You have to start somewhere, so why not a pro setup? Or, perhaps slightly more reasonably, the setup of someone who has a style you wish to develop towards. Doesn't have to be a pro, could be someone you admire at the higher levels of the amateur game. The point I try to make about this is that although there is some value to be extracted from the pro's choice of equipment, it's often overstated. And there's no more reason, IMO, to pick a Tenergy-using player to copy than anyone else, if that style is what you want to ape. So if I see, say, Gauzy using Rasanter then that's enough of a jumping-off point for me for a dependable level of performance as picking, say, Boll. There's either some value to be taken from Pro selection, in which case there are lots of options from various manufacturers, or none at all (in which case, moot point). But when I see people state, unequivocally, that rubber x is just bad (Rasanter here, Dignics over there, etc), rather than bad for them, and not just slightly worse, but totally sucks, then showing that rubber x is used at the Pro level is a fair response I think. And we can also go down to the semi-pro level if we want, say Bundesliga, and see more variety again. Or I can go to high-level banded tournaments here in the UK and see the same. The implication that Tenergy is just objectively better, and if you don't agree then you're not good enough to know the difference (see eric above), just grinds my gears somewhat.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AndySmith
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To bring things back on track somewhat (apologies for the rant there) - as much as I like R50, I do find the topsheet hard work sometimes for spin because of the hardness. The top end is excellent, and the hardness makes things super linear and simple for drives, but I have to be really on it all the time for looping. A few people have commented that they lightly boost these 50+ sponges, so I have to wonder if the trend leans that way (or emerges from it, if you see what I mean). Plastic ball leads to harder sponges because there's more to be gained from boosting than before.
As an aside, I've been using Hexer Powergrip for a few weeks now and it's excellent for spin...but I'd love to try a 50 degree sponge under it.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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