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Alternative way to loop underspin |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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Posted: 07/15/2019 at 3:42pm |
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Some see a big difference while others see only nuances.
That's been the argument. It's a "safer" or at least an "alternative" way to get low to the ball, that's it. No more. No less. Agreed?
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Sure. You can loop in many ways, and like I said, making it just about underspin is the issue.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Of course these features are all in their basic loops! You definitely can't have completely different stroke structures to loop different balls. The point of this thread was to point out an alternative way of getting low to loop underspin, but you have to get low for many other types of balls too and of course you would be using similar technique for those. So you agree with me that it is an alternative way of approaching the problem of looping underspin without using potentially injurious lumbar flexion and knee shear. Great! Case closed.....
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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I can see the differences and to make it crystal clear: 1. These differences are built into how they loop any ball, including their basic loop vs block. 2. Their modifications for underspin are similar when their basic loop is understood. If you look at Harimoto, Boll or Ma, all these things you are pointing out are in their basic loops. I will leave the issues with your inability to understand my sarcasm and issues with arthritis for another time.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Obviously NextLevel loves this thread secretly given how much he posted. I'm seriously confused by his position. He claims that this is a standard stroke but earlier also said maybe this alternative should be more widely taught. He also can't make up his mind whether or not dropping the shoulder to get low to loop underspin is acceptable or not (earlier on he wanted to say that lower back usage is perfectly fine, but later on he said it is not). He also admitted to having lower back soreness when getting low to loop in earlier threads but is now denying it because it no longer suits his position. Lol! He will probably delete his own video next....
If you can't see the differences between the 3 players in terms of the use of the lumbar, seriously try it yourself. Tip: In terms of the degree of lumbar flexion the list goes this way with Timo having the most extreme position, Ma Long uses it but to a lesser degree, and Harimoto just doesn't use it. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Okay, none of this is video of the original shot. So we are moving the goalposts here. Harimoto does not look like the original photo on many of the shots here.
If the argument is that Harimoto's forehand is different from Ma Long's or Timo Boll's, nothing to argue with though in terms of standard body usage, I would argue it is a matter of degree and that they are all textbook forehands. Whether Harimoto should or will continue to loop like this as he gets older will be interesting. If the idea is that Harimoto loops underspin differently, without getting into it, I would like to introduce one more player to show what your loop looks like when you are low to the table without squatting to get some perspective since all the comparables are going to be much older, taller and physically stronger than Harimoto at 14. Then you can decide whether the technique is new or related to specific things about Harimoto's forehand. As LGL said, he has the forehand of a boy at his age. Since the T2 videos are the most comparable.i may look for Boll vs Joo there as well (no point comparing old balls to newer ones). Edited by NextLevel - 07/12/2019 at 12:44am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Ok it's probably a trap but I'll bite regardless for the sake of discussion. Just try to be intellectually honest. Even in this thread I already see the ever changing goalposts which I won't call out. Watch carefully the lumbar, shoulders, feet. Of course I can't help if some people already closed their mind and are unable to accept new ideas. |
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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looks like it. Need to see a bit of video I would guess to see 100%.
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symbat
Member Joined: 03/01/2019 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Actually, I think for both players the nonplaying foot is aimed at the middle of the table on the opponents side. Only difference is Harimoto's heal is off the ground.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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If anyone looks at the TTEDGE video, none of the techniques espoused require you to drop the shoulder and use lumbar flexion. Ma Long and Xu Xin do not do this either, they fold their torso by bowing and not by twisting their spine over one side to drop one shoulder lower. It is a great service you have done to point out that people should not be looping underspin by folding one abdominal to drop the shoulder and twist their spine. But this is not how most pros are trained to loop underspin and what Brett is teaching is 100% the way it is done with none of the shoulder dropping you are talking about.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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You never know you might one day be in my neck of the woods or me yours. First rounds on me.
Edited by ghostzen - 07/09/2019 at 6:37pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Lol sure, it's half the world away tho haha!
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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No performance advantages... I would say they are equally effective. The only "advantage" the alternative has is to eliminate lumbar flexion and knee shear. Basically, either you bend down by a combination of bending knees and leaning over (using lumbar flexion), which makes your playing side shoulder much lower than your other shoulder, or you rotate your feet more to achieve a much deeper bend in your knees, while keeping torso straight. Edited by blahness - 07/09/2019 at 6:06pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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But since you are saying there is an alternative, shouldn't the video show it?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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bard romance
Gold Member Joined: 02/18/2016 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 1185 |
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Perhaps blahness could send videos comparing the two options so we could see the advantages.
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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Maybe one day we should sit down with a few beers each and a bottle of vodka and have a good old chat about TT eh Blahness? We would probably try and put the world to rights and you could confuse the bejesus out of me with your breakdown of strokes and there uses. If you are ever in the UK drop me a line mate.
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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That we agree on... no tag required.. got it the first time ...
If this is the alterative way to loop what's the standard then? 😉
Edited by ghostzen - 07/09/2019 at 8:44am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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There's nothing to see here guys, remember KISS principle - just get low and hit the ball. It's all standard technique!
Edit: looks like I needed a sarcasm tag... Edited by blahness - 07/09/2019 at 2:00am |
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ghostzen
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Having watched some of the Ma Long and FZD training videos from TTD it's looks like both players play this stroke pretty well all the time when they are in correct position. when they aren't mind their footwork can vary a bit … and their strokes. I suppose it's a case of adapting all the time if you aren't in the correct position even the Pro seem to do the same
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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The actual video would help lots in the discussions to be honest.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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The truth is that arm positioning on a specific shot can be the result of a variety of things during a point. It is different from what it is during training a rally shot. When you backswing or swing really hard and you have a loose arm for maximum whip, you get a lag on the backswing that makes the upper arm fly back harder. Whether you want this depends on many things, including the intention to kill the ball vs just to play a rally shot. If you watched Ma Long playing a max power (windmill) shot in a match, you would see a purportedly larger backswing as well.
I am still waiting for someone to post the actual shot where the still in the original post was taken from so we can look at it in the context of the point. Discussing TT without having the full context can distort the analysis and conclusions.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Well Harimoto got rid of his FH arm backswing in this Korean Open. Also if you watch LGL and the CNT coaching and training, they absolutely care about the details of the techniques. Do you still think they aren't thinking about these issues? |
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penholderxxx
Super Member Joined: 09/19/2016 Location: Asia Status: Offline Points: 451 |
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We are moving into the realm where pros would not even think of.
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Iloveplayingtabletennis
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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If you intended to say that a difference in the understanding of what words mean (semantics) is nitpicking, in this instance (as well as generally), I strongly disagree.
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stiltt
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What about the energy input from the legs? Is it exaggerated? Brutal? Does fluidity need to step in urgently before the definite settling of an energy/recovery/time hungry lumberjack FH loop? It seems his natural close to the table bh king game could suffer from such a overshadowing FH wanting it all. Just random thoughts. |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Larry Hodges had the right idea. Btw when I talk about arm backswing it is relative to the body. If you use your body to do the backswing your arm might move a long distance but relative to the body it is not moving a lot. The easiest way would be to look at the position of the elbow relative to the torso during the backswing. If it is far away then that indicates arm backswing, otherwise there's not. Most pros do not have much of an arm backswing in today's game due to the speed required.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I watched Harimoto vs Wong Chun Ting in the Korea Open recently, he tightened that backswing a lot, now the elbow is quite close to the body during the backswing. Arm backswing makes the stroke less stable and slower imo. |
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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stlitt wrote:
"can TH fh loop with less backswing to save time and energy?" if yes, then blahness is right;" You are begging the question. Based on videos I've seen I don't see a difference in backswing length. Both players' swings look equally long to me against underspin. Of course, their swing lengths are not always the same. Harimoto appears to swing with his arm further from his body than ML, but that does not mean his swing is longer. Eg., I can take a very short swing with my elbow "far" from my body. I suspect the disagreement is more semantics than anything else.
Edited by Ieyasu - 07/05/2019 at 6:49pm |
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stiltt
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I would tend to go as efficient as possible, gaining little things here and there is what pays off overtime. Think of cyclists selling their mom to shave 20 grams off their bike. I bet those guys at the top of TT are the same, if they can get an edge, they'll work for it. The only thing that strikes me is the brutality of his fh, the legs work in the backswing and the swing is so strong, stronger than needed, the same racket speed at contact can be reached spending way less energy. Compare throwing a disc and a sledgehammer, it seems he throws the latter. But there is maybe a reason for that, if fluidity builds up on top of that as he peaks a couple years down the road, it could be scary for example. The evolution of TH's fh is so interesting, as his body evolves into his adult age and training shapes his fh in a controlled environment with the best coaches, we could end up with something radically new and ridiculously efficient in terms of connection with the bh. The next 2 years are going to be determinant, I hope whatever route he chooses doesn't mute his bh in a tt mystery hard to anticipate. |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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OMG - I saw a partial clip of that video and patterned my entire backspin looping technique on the "how not to" section not knowing there was a "how to" section that came later.
Ok, I never really saw the video. But it is remarkable how much my loop against underspin looks just like what he first showed. Been working 2+ yrs to get it to look more normall without much luck. Mark
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