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Alternative way to loop underspin

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    Posted: 07/15/2019 at 3:42pm
Some see a big difference while others see only nuances.
That's been the argument.
It's a "safer" or at least an "alternative" way to get low to the ball, that's it. No more. No less.
Agreed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 8:45am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Obviously NextLevel loves this thread secretly given how much he posted.  LOL I'm seriously confused by his position. He claims that this is a standard stroke but earlier also said maybe this alternative should be more widely taught. He also can't make up his mind whether or not dropping the shoulder to get low to loop underspin is acceptable or not (earlier on he wanted to say that lower back usage is perfectly fine, but later on he said it is not). He also admitted to having lower back soreness when getting low to loop in  earlier threads but is now denying it because it no longer suits his position. Lol! He will probably delete his own video next....

If you can't see the differences between the 3 players in terms of the use of the lumbar, seriously try it yourself. Tip: In terms of the degree of lumbar flexion the list goes this way with Timo having the most extreme position, Ma Long uses it but to a lesser degree, and Harimoto just doesn't use it. 

I can see the differences and to make it crystal clear:

1.  These differences are built into how they loop any ball, including their basic loop vs block.
2. Their modifications for underspin are similar when their basic loop is understood.

If you look at Harimoto, Boll or Ma, all these things you are pointing out are in their basic loops.

I will leave the issues with your inability to understand my sarcasm and issues with arthritis for another time.

Of course these features are all in their basic loops! You definitely can't have completely different stroke structures to loop different balls. The point of this thread was to point out an alternative way of getting low  to loop underspin, but you have to get low for many other types of balls too and of course you would be using similar technique for those.

So you agree with me that it is an alternative way of approaching the problem of looping underspin without using potentially injurious lumbar flexion and knee shear. Great! Case closed.....

Sure. You can loop in many ways, and like I said, making it just about underspin is the issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 3:25am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Obviously NextLevel loves this thread secretly given how much he posted.  LOL I'm seriously confused by his position. He claims that this is a standard stroke but earlier also said maybe this alternative should be more widely taught. He also can't make up his mind whether or not dropping the shoulder to get low to loop underspin is acceptable or not (earlier on he wanted to say that lower back usage is perfectly fine, but later on he said it is not). He also admitted to having lower back soreness when getting low to loop in  earlier threads but is now denying it because it no longer suits his position. Lol! He will probably delete his own video next....

If you can't see the differences between the 3 players in terms of the use of the lumbar, seriously try it yourself. Tip: In terms of the degree of lumbar flexion the list goes this way with Timo having the most extreme position, Ma Long uses it but to a lesser degree, and Harimoto just doesn't use it. 

I can see the differences and to make it crystal clear:

1.  These differences are built into how they loop any ball, including their basic loop vs block.
2. Their modifications for underspin are similar when their basic loop is understood.

If you look at Harimoto, Boll or Ma, all these things you are pointing out are in their basic loops.

I will leave the issues with your inability to understand my sarcasm and issues with arthritis for another time.

Of course these features are all in their basic loops! You definitely can't have completely different stroke structures to loop different balls. The point of this thread was to point out an alternative way of getting low  to loop underspin, but you have to get low for many other types of balls too and of course you would be using similar technique for those.

So you agree with me that it is an alternative way of approaching the problem of looping underspin without using potentially injurious lumbar flexion and knee shear. Great! Case closed.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 3:12am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Obviously NextLevel loves this thread secretly given how much he posted.  LOL I'm seriously confused by his position. He claims that this is a standard stroke but earlier also said maybe this alternative should be more widely taught. He also can't make up his mind whether or not dropping the shoulder to get low to loop underspin is acceptable or not (earlier on he wanted to say that lower back usage is perfectly fine, but later on he said it is not). He also admitted to having lower back soreness when getting low to loop in  earlier threads but is now denying it because it no longer suits his position. Lol! He will probably delete his own video next....

If you can't see the differences between the 3 players in terms of the use of the lumbar, seriously try it yourself. Tip: In terms of the degree of lumbar flexion the list goes this way with Timo having the most extreme position, Ma Long uses it but to a lesser degree, and Harimoto just doesn't use it. 

I can see the differences and to make it crystal clear:

1.  These differences are built into how they loop any ball, including their basic loop vs block.
2. Their modifications for underspin are similar when their basic loop is understood.

If you look at Harimoto, Boll or Ma, all these things you are pointing out are in their basic loops.

I will leave the issues with your inability to understand my sarcasm and issues with arthritis for another time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 1:15am
Obviously NextLevel loves this thread secretly given how much he posted.  LOL I'm seriously confused by his position. He claims that this is a standard stroke but earlier also said maybe this alternative should be more widely taught. He also can't make up his mind whether or not dropping the shoulder to get low to loop underspin is acceptable or not (earlier on he wanted to say that lower back usage is perfectly fine, but later on he said it is not). He also admitted to having lower back soreness when getting low to loop in  earlier threads but is now denying it because it no longer suits his position. Lol! He will probably delete his own video next....

If you can't see the differences between the 3 players in terms of the use of the lumbar, seriously try it yourself. Tip: In terms of the degree of lumbar flexion the list goes this way with Timo having the most extreme position, Ma Long uses it but to a lesser degree, and Harimoto just doesn't use it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 12:32am
Okay, none of this is video of the original shot.  So we are moving the goalposts here.  Harimoto does not look like the original photo on many of the shots here.

If the argument is that Harimoto's forehand is different from Ma Long's or Timo Boll's, nothing to argue with though in terms of standard body usage, I would argue it is a matter of degree and that they are all textbook forehands.  Whether Harimoto should or will continue to loop like this as he gets older will be interesting.

If the idea is that Harimoto loops underspin differently, without getting into it, I would like to introduce one more player to show what your loop looks like when you are low to the table without squatting to get some perspective since all the comparables are going to be much older, taller and physically stronger than Harimoto at 14.  Then you can decide whether the technique is new or related to specific things about Harimoto's forehand.  As LGL said, he has the forehand of a boy at his age. 

Since the T2 videos are the most comparable.i may look for Boll vs Joo there as well (no point comparing old balls to newer ones).



Edited by NextLevel - 07/12/2019 at 12:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2019 at 7:44am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

looks like it. Need to see a bit of video I would guess to see 100%.

Ok it's probably a trap but I'll bite regardless for the sake of discussion. Just try to be intellectually honest. Even in this thread I already see the ever changing goalposts which I won't call out. Watch carefully the lumbar, shoulders, feet. Of course I can't help if some people already closed their mind and are unable to accept new ideas. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2019 at 7:13am
looks like it. Need to see a bit of video I would guess to see 100%.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote symbat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2019 at 12:13am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Are you referring to having both feet pointing in the same direction (to the side) like the split squat image you linked above?

I think it'll be really hard to transfer your weight forward into your opposite playing foot if you had them both pointing in the same direction like that. If you did manage to do it, your non-playing leg foot will probably have to rotate to be facing forward during the stroke. Harimoto still has his left foot facing diagonally forward. Xu Xin has it (his right) facing a little more forward, and we can't see Ma Long's feet in the third picture.

I think your playing foot should be pointing sideways like the split squat, which Harimoto and Xu Xin both have in the pictures above. But your non-playing foot should be pointed more forward. And you should be folding your body over your leg (like a bow, though I think for injury prevention you're advocating not to lean as well as bow here?) to transfer all your weight to that side.

I could be missing it, though! There are slight differences, but I see the same key ingredients in all their strokes.

Getting low would also be influenced by the height and length of the incoming ball, the timing you're planning to hit it, your current position, and the type of ball you're going to play.

I'm thinking the underlying principle I'm seeing from this thread is to get low. Having a wider stance also makes getting lower easier (which the split squat definitely has). Your success could be attributed to getting lower than you usually do. I used to try and get super low, but I was never able to commit it to muscle memory!

No not really but closer in angle rather than say 90 deg (left leg at 12 o'clock and right leg at 3oclock). And yes with this method both feet have to rotate. Right foot goes from roughly 3 o'clock to 1oclock and left foot goes from 2oclock to 12oclock. 
The CNT players all have slightly different technique but generally they have their right leg roughly around 2oclock and left leg around 12 oclock, then they compress their right waist to get low. 
Although these may be "slight" differences but because of biomechanics it makes a world of difference. Harimoto's method simply allows you to get really low easily without compressing the right waist, which is the key point I am making. 

Oh, so just having that one foot parallel to the table. I had a hard time picturing it because the split squat picture has both feet parallel, and that would make it a disaster to try and rotate forward into the ball.

I think I see what you're saying now. I'm just not sure if this is something the Chinese don't do. Even that ZJK video above with him looping against a chopper, I see his right leg completely parallel to the table on at least one of the shots. There are also shots where he has his right leg facing slightly forward like you've mentioned, though.

Does Harimoto always have his foot parallel? I would think he would have them parallel sometimes and facing forward slightly sometimes, too.

As for injury prevention, this might be something to take into consideration. For people who have a bad back, but good knees/legs, they could definitely get lower by adjusting their feet angle and stance (I think having a wider stance would help with this too maybe?)

Pros often maximize power at the cost of their bodies. So even if they could save their backs by not leaning their waist to the side, they probably would because it's another source of power.

(P.S. Personally I often have my foot parallel to the table against top and under spin. I added a picture below from a recent match I had. Though this was against top spin).



EDIT: Oh, and I should probably add that I like having these kinds of discussions. As an adult learner, I like thinking about these things. I'm also at a point where I can usually decide for myself whether something will work well for me or not, but I do also understand the other side of the argument because a few years ago I couldn't, and I tried a lot of incorrect things I thought were correct. I also prefer a lively forum with lots of discussions, controversial or not, than a dead one!! Let's keep it civil :)

Actually to clarify when I was talking about the direction of the feet, it was relative to the hitting direction rather than the table. Relative to table is hard to say because there's many possibilities. But feet position relative to the hitting direction is usually quite consistent for any player. 

Yours looks pretty similar to Harimoto's position except for the extra thoracic rotation that he has and he rotates a bit more on the nonplaying foot. 

Actually, I think for both players the nonplaying foot is aimed at the middle of the table on the opponents side.  Only difference is Harimoto's heal is off the ground.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2019 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Perhaps blahness could send videos comparing the two options so we could see the advantages.

No performance advantages... I would say they are equally effective. The only "advantage" the alternative has is to eliminate lumbar flexion and knee shear.

Basically, either you bend down by a combination of bending knees and leaning over (using lumbar flexion), which makes your playing side shoulder much lower than your other shoulder, or you rotate your feet more to achieve a much deeper bend in your knees, while keeping torso straight. 



If anyone looks at the TTEDGE video, none of the techniques espoused require you to drop the shoulder and use lumbar flexion. Ma Long and Xu Xin do not do this either, they fold their torso by bowing and not by twisting their spine over one side to drop one shoulder lower.  

It is a great service you have done to point out that people should not be looping underspin by folding one abdominal to drop the shoulder and twist their spine.  But this is not how most pros are trained to loop underspin and what Brett is teaching is 100% the way it is done with none of the shoulder dropping you are talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2019 at 6:37pm
You never know you might one day be in my neck of the woods or me yours. First rounds on me. Big smile

Edited by ghostzen - 07/09/2019 at 6:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2019 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Maybe one day we should sit down with a few beers each and a bottle of vodka and have a good old chat about TT eh Blahness? We would probably try and put the world to rights and you could confuse the bejesus out of me Wacko with your breakdown of strokes and there uses. If you are ever in the UK drop me a line mate.
 

Lol sure, it's half the world away tho haha! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2019 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Perhaps blahness could send videos comparing the two options so we could see the advantages.

No performance advantages... I would say they are equally effective. The only "advantage" the alternative has is to eliminate lumbar flexion and knee shear.

Basically, either you bend down by a combination of bending knees and leaning over (using lumbar flexion), which makes your playing side shoulder much lower than your other shoulder, or you rotate your feet more to achieve a much deeper bend in your knees, while keeping torso straight. 




Edited by blahness - 07/09/2019 at 6:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2019 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

There's nothing to see here guys, remember KISS principle - just get low and hit the ball. It's all standard technique! 
 
Edit: looks like I needed a sarcasm tag... LOL

But since you are saying there is an alternative,  shouldn't the video show it?   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2019 at 11:33am
Perhaps blahness could send videos comparing the two options so we could see the advantages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2019 at 11:23am
Maybe one day we should sit down with a few beers each and a bottle of vodka and have a good old chat about TT eh Blahness? We would probably try and put the world to rights and you could confuse the bejesus out of me Wacko with your breakdown of strokes and there uses. If you are ever in the UK drop me a line mate.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2019 at 1:33am
That we agree on... Clap no tag required.. got it the first time Wink...

If this is the alterative way to loop what's the standard then? 😉


Edited by ghostzen - 07/09/2019 at 8:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2019 at 11:55pm
There's nothing to see here guys, remember KISS principle - just get low and hit the ball. It's all standard technique! 
 
Edit: looks like I needed a sarcasm tag... LOL


Edited by blahness - 07/09/2019 at 2:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2019 at 7:03am
Having watched some of the Ma Long and FZD training videos from TTD it's looks like both players play this stroke pretty well all the time when they are in correct position. when they aren't mind their footwork can vary a bit … and their strokes. I suppose it's a case of adapting all the time if you aren't in the correct position even the Pro seem to do the same
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2019 at 4:06am
The actual video would help lots in the discussions to be honest. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2019 at 5:35am
The truth is that arm positioning on a specific shot can be the result of a variety of things during a point.  It is different from what it is during training a rally shot.  When you backswing or swing really hard and you have a loose arm for maximum whip, you get a lag on the backswing that makes the upper arm fly back harder.  Whether you want this depends on many things, including the intention to kill the ball vs just to play a rally shot.  If you watched Ma Long playing a max power (windmill) shot in a match, you would see a purportedly larger backswing as well. 

I am still waiting for someone to post the actual shot where the still in the original post was taken from so we can look at it in the context of the point.  Discussing TT without having the full context can distort the analysis and conclusions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2019 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

We are moving into the realm where pros would not even think of. LOL

Well Harimoto got rid of his FH arm backswing in this Korean Open. Also if you watch LGL and the CNT coaching and training, they absolutely care about the details of the techniques.  

Do you still think they aren't thinking about these issues? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2019 at 9:06pm
We are moving into the realm where pros would not even think of. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2019 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

stlitt wrote:

I suspect the disagreement is more semantics than anything else.
right, it’s nitpicking based on expectations.


If you intended to say that a difference in the understanding of what words mean (semantics) is nitpicking, in this instance (as well as generally),  I strongly disagree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2019 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

stlitt wrote:
"can TH fh loop with less backswing to save time and energy?" if yes, then blahness is right;"

You are begging the question. Based on videos I've seen I don't see a difference in backswing length. Both players' swings look equally long to me against underspin. Of course, their swing lengths are not always the same.

Harimoto appears to swing with his arm further from his body than ML, but that does not mean his swing is longer. Eg., I can take a very short swing with my elbow "far" from my body.

I suspect the disagreement is more semantics than anything else.
right, it’s nitpicking based on expectations I’m nobody to set, despite his genius that easily carries me away. 
What about the energy input from the legs? Is it exaggerated? Brutal? Does fluidity need to step in urgently before the definite settling of an energy/recovery/time hungry lumberjack FH loop? It seems his natural close to the table bh king game could suffer from such a overshadowing FH wanting it all. 
Just random thoughts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2019 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

NL wrote:
"IMO, the elbow distance is one of those nuances that is related to your technique and not part of looping backspin as long as you don't engage the upper arm too much - it does make controlling the backswing easier IMO but some people prefer direct backswings."

Thanks. I was curious whether you thought the difference was significant.

Five years ago on this forum there was a bit of discussion regarding arm extension in the backswing here: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/angular-momentum-info-from-larry-hodges_topic64840.html sparked by some brief comments by Larry Hodges on his blog: http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1720

As an aside, that is why I disagree with Blahness's claim that Harimoto's backswing is "way too much arm backswing." At best it's ambiguous or misleading because the ML video clearly shows ML taking a very long arm swing-path against backspin. Harimoto's swing-path is just as long except the arm is a tad further from his body.

Larry Hodges had the right idea. Btw when I talk about arm backswing it is relative to the body. If you use your body to do the backswing your arm might move a long distance but relative to the body it is not moving a lot. The easiest way would be to look at the position of the elbow relative to the torso during the backswing. If it is far away then that indicates arm backswing, otherwise there's not. Most pros do not have much of an arm backswing in today's game due to the speed required. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2019 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

...
As an aside, that is why I disagree with Blahness's claim that Harimoto's backswing is "way too much arm backswing." At best it's ambiguous or misleading because the ML video clearly shows ML taking a very long arm swing-path against backspin. Harimoto's swing-path is just as long except the arm is a tad further from his body.
If we agree that in theory, we choose the most efficient way, then more backswing than necessary means waste. So the question should be instead: "can TH fh loop with less backswing to save time and energy?" if yes, then blahness is right; but we could go the other way saying that at that age, there is plenty of energy and speed available and not in use so that waste is not the priority in things to fix if there are any. 
I would tend to go as efficient as possible, gaining little things here and there is what pays off overtime. Think of cyclists selling their mom to shave 20 grams off their bike. I bet those guys at the top of TT are the same, if they can get an edge, they'll work for it. The only thing that strikes me is the brutality of his fh, the legs work in the backswing and the swing is so strong, stronger than needed, the same racket speed at contact can be reached spending way less energy. Compare throwing a disc and a sledgehammer, it seems he throws the latter. But there is maybe a reason for that, if fluidity builds up on top of that as he peaks a couple years down the road, it could be scary for example.
The evolution of TH's fh is so interesting, as his body evolves into his adult age and training shapes his fh in a controlled environment with the best coaches, we could end up with something radically new and ridiculously efficient in terms of connection with the bh. The next 2 years are going to be determinant, I hope whatever route he chooses doesn't mute his bh in a tt mystery hard to anticipate.


I watched Harimoto vs Wong Chun Ting in the Korea Open recently, he tightened that backswing a lot, now the elbow is quite close to the body during the backswing. Arm backswing makes the stroke less stable and slower imo. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2019 at 6:45pm
stlitt wrote:
"can TH fh loop with less backswing to save time and energy?" if yes, then blahness is right;"

You are begging the question. Based on videos I've seen I don't see a difference in backswing length. Both players' swings look equally long to me against underspin. Of course, their swing lengths are not always the same.

Harimoto appears to swing with his arm further from his body than ML, but that does not mean his swing is longer. Eg., I can take a very short swing with my elbow "far" from my body.

I suspect the disagreement is more semantics than anything else.


Edited by Ieyasu - 07/05/2019 at 6:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2019 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

...
As an aside, that is why I disagree with Blahness's claim that Harimoto's backswing is "way too much arm backswing." At best it's ambiguous or misleading because the ML video clearly shows ML taking a very long arm swing-path against backspin. Harimoto's swing-path is just as long except the arm is a tad further from his body.
If we agree that in theory, we choose the most efficient way, then more backswing than necessary means waste. So the question should be instead: "can TH fh loop with less backswing to save time and energy?" if yes, then blahness is right; but we could go the other way saying that at that age, there is plenty of energy and speed available and not in use so that waste is not the priority in things to fix if there are any. 
I would tend to go as efficient as possible, gaining little things here and there is what pays off overtime. Think of cyclists selling their mom to shave 20 grams off their bike. I bet those guys at the top of TT are the same, if they can get an edge, they'll work for it. The only thing that strikes me is the brutality of his fh, the legs work in the backswing and the swing is so strong, stronger than needed, the same racket speed at contact can be reached spending way less energy. Compare throwing a disc and a sledgehammer, it seems he throws the latter. But there is maybe a reason for that, if fluidity builds up on top of that as he peaks a couple years down the road, it could be scary for example.
The evolution of TH's fh is so interesting, as his body evolves into his adult age and training shapes his fh in a controlled environment with the best coaches, we could end up with something radically new and ridiculously efficient in terms of connection with the bh. The next 2 years are going to be determinant, I hope whatever route he chooses doesn't mute his bh in a tt mystery hard to anticipate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2019 at 5:34pm
OMG  -  I saw a partial clip of that video and patterned my entire backspin looping technique on the "how not to" section not knowing there was a  "how to" section that came later.

Ok, I never really saw the video.  But it is remarkable how much my loop against underspin looks just like what he first showed.  Been working 2+ yrs to get it to look more normall without much luck.

Mark
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