Alternative way to loop underspin

Hmmm... doing this against topspin just like Harimoto does. I think we should make distinctions between what people do because they are athletes and what people do because they are part of proper technique.  I am not even sure whether Harimoto is just an exceptionally limber individual or whether he is inventing new technique.   The idea is intriguing.

If you lift a heavy object, you don't want to overuse your back muscles but you are going to use your back muscles.  What you don't want is to stress your back muscles by using them in a way that it affects your spine. Hip rotation solves most of the problem as well as playing mostly within the power level generater by your hip rotation, but I think if someone believes that back muscles have no place in safe TT, it is something one can say but which one will have a tough time defending.  Proper throwing technique uses the back muscles.

My real "secret" is having very long arms. But to maintain standard looping form, I loop more upwards than someone with your ability to get low might.  The principles of what we do aren't that different. 

Thanks, and to be clear, I have nothing against talking about lumbar flexion.  Back injuries are common in all sports and injury prevention is important.  In fact, my arthritis gave me injuries all by itself.  TT was just the icing on the cake.  

But that said, talking to high level coaches, especially those who played at a decent level, gives you a different insight into technique and injury.  High level coaches try to stop motions that cause injuries. The biggest source of injuries is trying to get power from motions that cannot handle the stress.  It requires you to to learn how to use your body properly.  That said, a lot of injury prevention also comes from self care because the human body can only handle so much physical activity without rest and restoration.  If anyone playing table tennis isn't getting massages or using a roller or something to take care of the tightness that builds up in the muscles, you are due for something at some point as tight muscles pull on tendons and need to relax to free them up.

The thing I tell people is that you need to hit the ball essentially the same way every single time, and then learn how to adjust to spin with practice.  Top players are mostly doing one stroke which they have adapted to the ball with practice and learning to adjust their body to create different stroke trajectories and to adapt to different incoming spins and placements.  

I have learned a lot more about technique since the time I spoke to you and I have better ways of teaching how to hit a TT ball.  I don't even practice what I preach well enough but I know the limitations of reality like gravity.

Harimoto does just about everything blahness wrote about on his standard forehand loop (vs block).  So why is this an alternative way to loop underspin?  All Harimoto is doing (for anyone who understands standard technique) is getting a deeper knee bend on his left knee as part of his hip rotation on the backswing.    He is not folding his torso as much as some might but it goes back to the question of where is the video of what he was looping so we can even confirm the ball was heavy underspin.  Adjusting to the ball leads to all kinds of things that may or may not be part of a base technique.  The main benefit of getting lower is that it helps you keep the ball lower and play lower balls.

Here is a video that goes into detail on how to loop underspin.  Here, the lowering of the body with the hip rotation on the backswing is not as low as Harimoto.  But conceptually, it is the same stroke.  No, not an alternative.  Standard forehand technique is standard forehand technique, even if some do it better than others.

Something the video doesn't mention which I like to emphasize to students is that when you are looping underspin, there is a strong emphasis on spinning the ball because underspin wants to go into the table/net so you need to have a very spin focused stroke.  If you want to drive the ball faster, spin the ball more with more power, don't try to hit it harder.

Thanks.  IMO, the elbow distance is one of those nuances that is related to your technique and not part of looping backspin as long as you don't engage the upper arm too much - it does make controlling the backswing easier IMO but some people prefer direct backswings.  If I was coaching, I would tell you to keep the elbow close and to limit upper arm usage as much as possible, but if you found me a video of Kreanga or Boll doing it a bit differently, I would just tell you okay.  But if you felt that you wanted to just drop your arm and that it was optional getting the shoulder lower with some combination of folding the torso and rotating the hip to lower the racket, I would just say that is clearly inferior technique. 

"IMO, the elbow distance is one of those nuances that is related to your technique and not part of looping backspin as long as you don't engage the upper arm too much - it does make controlling the backswing easier IMO but some people prefer direct backswings."

Five years ago on this forum there was a bit of discussion regarding arm extension in the backswing here: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/angular-momentum-info-from-larry-hodges_topic64840.html sparked by some brief comments by Larry Hodges on his blog: http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1720

As an aside, that is why I disagree with Blahness's claim that Harimoto's backswing is "way too much arm backswing." At best it's ambiguous or misleading because the ML video clearly shows ML taking a very long arm swing-path against backspin. Harimoto's swing-path is just as long except the arm is a tad further from his body.

I would tend to go as efficient as possible, gaining little things here and there is what pays off overtime. Think of cyclists selling their mom to shave 20 grams off their bike. I bet those guys at the top of TT are the same, if they can get an edge, they'll work for it. The only thing that strikes me is the brutality of his fh, the legs work in the backswing and the swing is so strong, stronger than needed, the same racket speed at contact can be reached spending way less energy. Compare throwing a disc and a sledgehammer, it seems he throws the latter. But there is maybe a reason for that, if fluidity builds up on top of that as he peaks a couple years down the road, it could be scary for example.

I watched Harimoto vs Wong Chun Ting in the Korea Open recently, he tightened that backswing a lot, now the elbow is quite close to the body during the backswing. Arm backswing makes the stroke less stable and slower imo. 

I am still waiting for someone to post the actual shot where the still in the original post was taken from so we can look at it in the context of the point.  Discussing TT without having the full context can distort the analysis and conclusions.

If this is the alterative way to loop what's the standard then? 😉

No performance advantages... I would say they are equally effective. The only "advantage" the alternative has is to eliminate lumbar flexion and knee shear.

Basically, either you bend down by a combination of bending knees and leaning over (using lumbar flexion), which makes your playing side shoulder much lower than your other shoulder, or you rotate your feet more to achieve a much deeper bend in your knees, while keeping torso straight. 

Actually, I think for both players the nonplaying foot is aimed at the middle of the table on the opponents side.  Only difference is Harimoto's heal is off the ground.