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Closed bat on the takeback on backhand

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    Posted: 07/04/2019 at 2:01am
One coach told me that all the top 20 pro players have a closed bat angle on the take back position in the backhand against backspin and topspin. So the bat is parallel to the floor or table at the end of the backswing.

I had a training session with another coach and he said that top players do not do this and the bat angle is more open. He showed me a video of ma longs backhand on his phone but it was not that clear.

I have seen slow motion videos on ma long that supports the first coaches view but have not looked at all the top pro players.

What do others think about this different point of views and if you have good videos one way or the other can you please post ? Do you think that this is something club players should copy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 2:41am
If there is an answer to your question, it would still be a trick with the same disconnection with the essential: 1)point of contact with the ball 2)bat angle at contact and 3)bat trajectory at contact. Whatever bat angle at the end of the backswing you choose is good as long as you know what you do with the 3 1st factors.
There is no theory other than doing it and let your body decide, I would just encourage to force fluidity while you are going for strong shots at training: you go for maximum force and let the wrist loose and fluid, you make it snap with the forearm --> don't think about activating the wrist, think more of a forearm jerk forward that stops, throwing the wrist forward. Do one after the other and find the groove where you have speed, spin and it does not hurt, then you have a tempo and good recovery. Good luck finding practice partners for that, they might be annoyed so a robot is perfect for the routine. Then, when you feel that nice groove by getting a low fast and spinny ball again and again, you know you found your bh and you can make them slower, controlled, placed, on demand.

Note: it's a dangerous route to tune shots with hard strokes and it may sound counter intuitive. The idea here is the importance of the wrist snap is so huge that it can't be taught and learned at medium strength. To feel the importance of the wrist snap from the forearm, it has to be done strongly from the start, a bit like teaching the flick, it's hard to do well with no hard commitment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 2:50am
I think the closed bat angle is an illusion created during the backswing because they're bowing their upper bodies forward.

Try having your racket in front of your belly with an open racket angle while standing straight up. Then bow forward without moving your arm or changing the racket angle in any way. You'll notice your racket starts to face the ground.

So the real power generator you need is that bowing movement following by the unbowing movement during your forward swing.

For strokes over the table, you can also help close your racket angle by having your elbow higher.

For all backhand strokes, your wrist should be slightly bent back toward you, which also should help with having a closed racket angle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 3:21am
Yes I understand the bowing closes the racket angle and unbowing opens the racket angle. My point is that the 2 coaches have a different opinion on what the pros are doing as regards this topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 3:27am
Yes I understand the bowing closes the racket angle and unbowing opens the racket angle. My point is that the 2 coaches have a different opinion on what the pros are doing as regards this topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarkerMyLove Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 3:36am
Coach #1 is much closer to the truth if you are talking about flying BH to BH topspins.  But usually it will *not* get perfectly parallel in most cases.
example from the first few minutes here:

If they are doing BH loop against BLOCK it will be slightly more open but even then still more closed than open.

Every ball is a bit different in terms of amount of spin coming at you, height, where you are and where you are trying to hit and what you are trying to do with the ball---> going for more spin and depth....or you are going for more speed and lower trajectory.




Edited by DarkerMyLove - 07/04/2019 at 3:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 5:21am
The bat angle should is more open. The answer can easily be found when looking at the biomechanics of the backhand. The forearm has to supinate, making an open racket angle essential. Look at fzd backhand in slow mo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarkerMyLove Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 5:51am
Maybe we need to make some definitions.  Are talking about the "take back" of a Backhand shot when you are in your loaded, semi-crouched position?  And we are talking about the bat *relative* to the floor...   is that right? 

For me, both Ma Long and FZD have quite a closed bat angle.  In my mind an open bat angle (for a topspin shot) would be almost perpendicular to the floor.  As I know, we are talking about the bat relative to the floor on the take back.  




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 7:36am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

The bat angle should is more open. The answer can easily be found when looking at the biomechanics of the backhand. The forearm has to supinate, making an open racket angle essential. Look at fzd backhand in slow mo.

+1 Even more so if you're playing a slow as hell tacky BH rubber like Ma Long, the ball will just die in the net if you don't hit it with a more open bat angle (compared to those using tensors)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 8:42am
Originally posted by maurice101 maurice101 wrote:

Yes I understand the bowing closes the racket angle and unbowing opens the racket angle. My point is that the 2 coaches have a different opinion on what the pros are doing as regards this topic.

Good coaches disagree all the time.  It was one of the first things Brett told me.  

In general, I have learned that if you want a coach to tell you something the way you need to understand it, you will get into trouble as an adult learner as many coaches are just used to training kids who absorb a lot of stuff unconsciously. In TT, the coach is always trying to tell you something, his language is almost always wrong for you and you have to figure out how to make it work.

Pros almost always close their rackets on the backswing on both forehand and backhand but it doesn't matter in terms of what they are trying to do.  What really matters is the path their rackets take to the ball and the follow through.  Even if the racket seems to start closed, it usually opens up at some point during to the swing to make the appropriate contact on the ball. No one hits the top of the ball on every swing but most swings come over the ball to keep the ball low and generate forward motion.

The biomechanics of propelling the ball powerfully are probably what most TT coaches should be learning and teaching. 


Edited by NextLevel - 07/04/2019 at 8:44am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 9:44am
Maybe i have misunderstood. But how would it help to change the angle during the swing back?

How the angle should be depends on What kind of stroke you want to Do or and how fast you can move the arm. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 10:08am
Thinking about infinitely variable body movements in this overly rational, intellectualized way is the road to Hell, imo.  Every time one of these discussions starts, somewhere far off a beautiful little table tennis fairy dies.  Please don't kill the TT fairies.
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Agreed Clap protect the TTF's

Edited by ghostzen - 07/04/2019 at 10:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Thinking about infinitely variable body movements in this overly rational, intellectualized way is the road to Hell, imo.  Every time one of these discussions starts, somewhere far off a beautiful little table tennis fairy dies.  Please don't kill the TT fairies.
LOL

I’m with nextlevel and lula on that one, best position to shield the tt 🧚‍♀️ fairies.

Now what about the grip at the end of the backswing when we got the angle right?


Edited by stiltt - 07/04/2019 at 12:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 4:41pm
I agree with you nextlevel. No coach I have had have agreed about anything!

However this is a question about what the top 10 pros are doing in their backhand take back with 2 coaches having a difference of opinion. If someone has the time to do a freeze frame at the end of the backswing for the top pros backhands it would be interesting to see who is more correct.

As for my own game I do find a forward bow with the bat pretty parallel to the floor at the extreme end of the backswing and coming out of the bow the bat naturally opens up and the resulting stroke is much more spinny and powerful.

One of the above coaches would tell me in multball if he could see the red rubber in the backswing for each ball. So for him this was an important aspect of a backhand shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2019 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by maurice101 maurice101 wrote:

I agree with you nextlevel. No coach I have had have agreed about anything!

However this is a question about what the top 10 pros are doing in their backhand take back with 2 coaches having a difference of opinion. If someone has the time to do a freeze frame at the end of the backswing for the top pros backhands it would be interesting to see who is more correct.

As for my own game I do find a forward bow with the bat pretty parallel to the floor at the extreme end of the backswing and coming out of the bow the bat naturally opens up and the resulting stroke is much more spinny and powerful.

One of the above coaches would tell me in multball if he could see the red rubber in the backswing for each ball. So for him this was an important aspect of a backhand shot.

The answer is both are correct. It depends on what you define as "take back". The bat angle is open relative to the torso during the takeback. The closing of the angle relative to the table, like what mickd said is related to bowing of the upper body. So first coach is correct if he measures relative to the table, and second coach is correct if he measures relative to the torso. The bat angle during ball contact is the most important though and it is more open in Ma Longs case. 


Edited by blahness - 07/04/2019 at 6:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2019 at 10:00pm
Well here is my ROBOT backhand against topspin. I was told by the coach to get a lower stance. It looks like I close the bat and open it up and the way I do looks a bit forced. Perhaps a bigger forward bow bend would make the stroke more natural as regards this area.


Dog and washing add spice  to the video.


Edited by maurice101 - 07/06/2019 at 10:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2019 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by maurice101 maurice101 wrote:


Dog and washing add spice  to the video.

Loved it! Looks like the dog wanted to hit some backhands too... maybe I'm just projecting.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2019 at 11:52pm
The dog likes that I have a robot that I have to pick up the balls. He gets his ball thrown when I do this. I trained him not to go after tt balls!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2019 at 11:55pm
Originally posted by maurice101 maurice101 wrote:

The dog likes that I have a robot that I have to pick up the balls. He gets his ball thrown when I do this. I trained him not to go after tt balls!!!

Haha... no wonder the dog got so excited when you started hitting. I thought maybe he approved of your new swing.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2019 at 3:56pm
Yes my wrist looks kind of strange ad forced in the backswing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2019 at 4:09pm
cool stuff, it's a nice bh, the forearm throw and related wrist snap are there. I recommend a backswing closer to the swing, as if you didn't know where the ball is coming.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2019 at 4:53am
I am not sure I understand your comment...I recommend a backswing closer to the swing, as if you didn't know where the ball is coming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2019 at 5:08am
I mean the backswing is happening in advance and then there is a little pause; no biggie. to make it more realistic, try doing the backswing at the very last moment so it is very close to the swing. but again it's very good a bh already, you got the essential which is that forearm throw and wrist snap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2019 at 10:13am
Yes but make sure you don't let your racket get too low on backswing (or in ready position).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2019 at 11:03am
It's a very good stroke.  But it looks like a robot-optimized backhand that you will not be able to use in matchplay or even  to do drills with a human partner.  You are crushing the ball like Kreanga because it always lands on a dime with identical spin and speed.  That doesn't happen irl.

I once had a complete set of highly robot-optimized strokes which I had to unlearn and then replace from nothing.  If you are a ttedge member watch the first ten LTT videos and you will see what I mean.

So robots are great partners, but beware of optimizing your strokes for them.  It's not actually table tennis.  NL once suggested trying to make your shot land short in the table with heavy spin.  That may seem counterintuitive, but it might be a good idea if you do a lot of robot practice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2019 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

It's a very good stroke.  But it looks like a robot-optimized backhand that you will not be able to use in matchplay or even  to do drills with a human partner.  You are crushing the ball like Kreanga because it always lands on a dime with identical spin and speed.  That doesn't happen irl.

I once had a complete set of highly robot-optimized strokes which I had to unlearn and then replace from nothing.  If you are a ttedge member watch the first ten LTT videos and you will see what I mean.

So robots are great partners, but beware of optimizing your strokes for them.  It's not actually table tennis.  NL once suggested trying to make your shot land short in the table with heavy spin.  That may seem counterintuitive, but it might be a good idea if you do a lot of robot practice.

My rules for proper multiball/robot practice:

1.  If you need to improve rather than just drill the stroke, incorporate movement as it always makes you reset and makes things harder.  The risk is that you develop bad movement habits.
2.  Avoid hitting the ball as hard as possible because it will always involve bad technique and arm overuse. 
3.  Use the body as well as you can even if you miss or the ball moves like a snail became the muscles will get stronger and the timing better.
4. Try to play different kinds of shots, changing the arc and the placement of your shot.  If you want, put targets on the table and try to hit them.
5. Find some drills where you don't know where the ball is going.
6.  Find some drills where the ball changes quality so you adapt your stroke to different spins. 

All of these things will help you control your stroke better and improve. Hitting the ball hard is overrated if you are doing it with bad technique. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2019 at 9:35am
Another way that you can randomize a bit is to have different balls, different ages of  balls, etc. As opposed to just buying a bag of 72 and dumping them in.  

Most of us it just happens naturally as balls progress from play to club to robot.

I haven't been able to hit with my new two wheel robot like I'd like (tennis elbow) but I'd say the ability to make dead balls was fascinating vs what I was used to. I think it would have helped me avoid some robot-itis to have that when I started with a robot.


Edited by cole_ely - 07/11/2019 at 9:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2019 at 3:49pm
One aspect of why their (ML FZ) paddle is closed that you would need to take into consideration is their grip. They both have some degree of BH bias which is going to automatically close the paddle on the take back. If you don't use a similar grip than you may experience some awkwardness trying to copy what you are seeing. It also might be awkward if you don't have the hip extension body movement automated especially if you are imitating ML. 



Edited by V-Griper - 07/11/2019 at 3:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2019 at 4:00pm
Thanks for the great feedback. Why pay a coach when I can get expert advice here for free. Smile Thanks guys.

BRS is correct in that the stroke breaks down in match play. I tend to get the timing of the bow down wrong in matches and this messes up the stroke. I also find my training partner can not block consistently when I do this stroke correctly. I did ask a coach about the timing issue and he was not keen on the bow down movement and closed bat angle and had no advice to my question. This resulted in my original question on this post. This stroke resulted from 5 lessons with brett clark.

The suggestion to time the whip closer to the ball could help this. Perhaps a faster bow down movement would give more time to adjust to the balls position. I am at the Australian open at present and I see the pros have a short sharp backhand stroke maybe due to lack of time.

I do find adding a hip rotation element allows a shorter stroke action although I am not sure why.
Thanks next level for the robot tips. The robot app does not have random functions but that is coming soon.

I find that there is a certain nice feeling when you time the bow up movement with the slight delay in back whip motion  that feels effortless in some way as my body is moving the arm up. I am trying to focus on having this feeling in training with a partner.


Edited by maurice101 - 07/11/2019 at 4:15pm
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