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ITTF has sanctioned friction tests on pimpled rubb

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    Posted: 07/17/2019 at 9:11pm
ITTF sanctioned friction tests on pimpled rubbers.
They're planning to deploy the tests for some ITTF events. The locals may adopt it on their own.   





Be happy.

Edited by igorponger - 07/17/2019 at 11:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 11:36am
when drug test to  umpires I know one who is on dope 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alisha_Hooksit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

when drug test to  umpires I know one who is on dope 

Ahhh,  you know an umpire on "dope"  so therefore all of them should be drug tested? Good plan.
BTW what kind of dope does that known to you umpire use, cannabis, opioid pain pills, benzos, shrooms, coke, downers, meth, acid, Angel dust, smack, ludes, roofies, or bathtub gin?


Edited by Alisha_Hooksit - 07/18/2019 at 8:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alisha_Hooksit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 8:45pm
Waiting for the Pushblocker to weigh in after he orders the gizmo and deciphers how to confound it Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 8:49pm
Nowhere does it say that this is the device they'll be using.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 9:54pm
Igor has posted pics of this contraption before. If ittf did want to do friction testing, it is doubtful they would use a mickey mouse device like this.

There are a range of professional devices made to test surface friction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnopgnipster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2019 at 10:21am
Am I allowed to clean my long pips before taking the test? Long pips can get awfully dirty during a tournament and show up maybe as frictionless on the test...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2019 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Alisha_Hooksit Alisha_Hooksit wrote:

Waiting for the Pushblocker to weigh in after he orders the gizmo and deciphers how to confound it Wink
I hope that someone challenges this in court. They are enforcing a rule that does not exist. They are violating their own bylaws. The friction regulation was created by the BoD. Rules are passed by the AGM.
There is currently no rule in place that would make a uniform used rubber illegal for competition if it has naturally lost it's friction without any treatment.  The "as authorized" wording means that a rubber can't be modified. EVERY rubber will no longer be "as authorized" after only a little bit of use, so if a rubber is a "used rubber", it is still as authorized. Nothing in the rules make a used rubber illegal after a certain amount of use. There is no "pimple specfic" rule when it comes to the "AS AUTHORIZED" rule.  
What the BoD effectively did was to bypass the AGM which is the body that can actually implement rules. Now the BoD passed a REGULATION (not rule) and now the BoD passed a testing mechanism to inforce that REGULATION as a RULE which clearly violates their bylaws.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2019 at 12:47pm
they are going after 3 (4? LOL) remaining choppers / blockers on the tour...Maybe boosted H3s is what they should be after 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alisha_Hooksit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2019 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Alisha_Hooksit Alisha_Hooksit wrote:

Waiting for the Pushblocker to weigh in after he orders the gizmo and deciphers how to confound it Wink
I hope that someone challenges this in court. They are enforcing a rule that does not exist. They are violating their own bylaws. The friction regulation was created by the BoD. Rules are passed by the AGM.
There is currently no rule in place that would make a uniform used rubber illegal for competition if it has naturally lost it's friction without any treatment.  The "as authorized" wording means that a rubber can't be modified. EVERY rubber will no longer be "as authorized" after only a little bit of use, so if a rubber is a "used rubber", it is still as authorized. Nothing in the rules make a used rubber illegal after a certain amount of use. There is no "pimple specfic" rule when it comes to the "AS AUTHORIZED" rule.  
What the BoD effectively did was to bypass the AGM which is the body that can actually implement rules. Now the BoD passed a REGULATION (not rule) and now the BoD passed a testing mechanism to inforce that REGULATION as a RULE which clearly violates their bylaws.

I do not doubt that you are likely correct with that information, and also agree with you. Personally I enjoy the challenge and variation that comes with competing against players using long-standing and legal rubber alternatives to inverted, and feel the reactionary discontent against them comes from players who are rather, sore losers, for lack of a better term. Also I enjoy watching videos of your matches and the many valuable contributions and information you share with everyone here regarding the long-pips game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purpletiesto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2019 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by gnopgnipster gnopgnipster wrote:

Am I allowed to clean my long pips before taking the test? Long pips can get awfully dirty during a tournament and show up maybe as frictionless on the test...

Surely the testing process will ensure the surface is in a control state when taking friction readings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2019 at 10:32am
Can anyone show me the rule that requires a untreated rubber to maintain a certain amount of friction? I'm not talking about the regulation that a rubber must have x friction when being manufactored. I'm talking about any RULE that requires a rubber to maintain x amount of friction or x percent of it's original friction to be used in an event. What if a rubber is authorized with 50 micro newton friction and the limit is 50 micro newton. Now the rubber is used for 1 hour and now is 49 micro newton. Where is the rule that the rubber has to stay above that when it was used? As I said, EVERY rubber loses friction naturally and if "as authorized" means the original friction, then no used rubber would be legal for competition as a used rubber does not have it's original properties in as short time as a match. 
Any such rule that requires a certain amount of friction or % of the original friction?


Edited by Pushblocker - 07/20/2019 at 10:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2019 at 12:50pm
Yep, someone show me this in the Laws of Table Tennis.
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Here we go again LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2019 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Can anyone show me the rule that requires a untreated rubber to maintain a certain amount of friction? I'm not talking about the regulation that a rubber must have x friction when being manufactored. I'm talking about any RULE that requires a rubber to maintain x amount of friction or x percent of it's original friction to be used in an event. What if a rubber is authorized with 50 micro newton friction and the limit is 50 micro newton. Now the rubber is used for 1 hour and now is 49 micro newton. Where is the rule that the rubber has to stay above that when it was used? As I said, EVERY rubber loses friction naturally and if "as authorized" means the original friction, then no used rubber would be legal for competition as a used rubber does not have it's original properties in as short time as a match. 
Any such rule that requires a certain amount of friction or % of the original friction?
I can see how this would be an important rule for you and perhaps emotional. However, if we look at it dispassionately, then I think it's workable.

First, ITTF doesn't invent rules with amateur players in mind.  As far as they're concerned, we don't actually exist. To them, someone at (as an example) your level of play, is no different than the guys in the homeless shelter playing ping pong.  So we might be stuck with rules that make no sense to us because they were designed with us in mind.

Second, "as authorized" has some meaning for how some long pips are being sold.  Last year I posted a thread about some long pips that one of my club mates was (and still is) using.  The pips as  approved by ITTF had some grip, enough that a player could actual put spin on the ball.  However, the same manufacturer also sold a version that was UV treated and were *very* slick.  This second version is very much not "as approved", but people are using it anyway. That's clearly illegal and a test for it would be nice.

Third, you talked about natural wear and loss of friction on all rubbers. I think ITTF would need to set a tolerance for loss.  You gave an example of a rubber that, when new, has a friction of 50 when the legal limit is 50.  After an hour of use, the rubber is now 49 and no longer technically legal.  ITTF would have to argue that you should have bought at rubber that has a friction of 55 (if you change rubbers frequently) or even 60 (if you don't change rubbers frequently).  Their argument would be that they've set the minimum standard for friction and it's up to you to not go below it. If they really thought it was OK for the grip to go down to 49, then they wold have set the minimum standard at, for example, 45.

At the professional level, the pros do change rubbers frequently, so old or abused rubbers aren't really a problem for them.  And, as I said, they are all that ITTF cares about.  At the amateur level, I see rubbers that don't behave right all the time, because they're old or in some way deteriorated.  It leads to some weird or unexpected play, but we're only amateurs and I can't see anyone testing those rubbers.

As for whether ITTF is implementing these rules following the proper procedures: I don't know the ITTF political structure well enough to not what's allowed and what is not.  However, I do know that in most democratic governments (including our federal government and all 50 states), there are multiple ways to implement restrictions that seem like laws.  You can have actual laws passed by a legislature, you can have executive fiats by governors or the President, and you can have administrative rules that are created by bureaucrats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purpletiesto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2019 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Can anyone show me the rule that requires a untreated rubber to maintain a certain amount of friction? I'm not talking about the regulation that a rubber must have x friction when being manufactored. I'm talking about any RULE that requires a rubber to maintain x amount of friction or x percent of it's original friction to be used in an event. What if a rubber is authorized with 50 micro newton friction and the limit is 50 micro newton. Now the rubber is used for 1 hour and now is 49 micro newton. Where is the rule that the rubber has to stay above that when it was used? As I said, EVERY rubber loses friction naturally and if "as authorized" means the original friction, then no used rubber would be legal for competition as a used rubber does not have it's original properties in as short time as a match. 
Any such rule that requires a certain amount of friction or % of the original friction?

It would be reasonable to assume they will implement a testing methodology to determine a number of metrics which will in turn determine whether or not a rubber is violating the rule and those metrics and associated violating thresholds will be published as a new specific rule in conjunction with the testing methodology.

Also, you may want to read this --> https://www.britannica.com/science/friction

Once that is implemented, you may need to start playing with new rubbers, which are legal according to the new rule set regarding friction. I wouldn't mind what you used, though, I love beating a cheater or a sook but even better when it's both at once.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ingo_Ger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2019 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

First, ITTF doesn't invent rules with amateur players in mind.  As far as they're concerned, we don't actually exist. To them, someone at (as an example) your level of play, is no different than the guys in the homeless shelter playing ping pong.  So we might be stuck with rules that make no sense to us because they were designed with us in mind.
I don't know where you are playing, here in Germany, the rule is for sure for us "amateur" players. You will find most of these type of totally frictionless long pimples within the last(!) 4-6 leagues. Above a certain skill level, everyone is too consistent with their top spin and you will loose if you're dependant on your material alone. In Germany, I would say "Bezirksliga" which should translate into a TTR of round about >1500 is the ceiling for most of the players with frictionless material. There are some exceptions but those I would bet would be better with inverted rubber.
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Second, "as authorized" has some meaning for how some long pips are being sold.  Last year I posted a thread about some long pips that one of my club mates was (and still is) using.  The pips as  approved by ITTF had some grip, enough that a player could actual put spin on the ball.  However, the same manufacturer also sold a version that was UV treated and were *very* slick.  This second version is very much not "as approved", but people are using it anyway. That's clearly illegal and a test for it would be nice.
And everybody, who knows the difference between frictionless and "legal" pimples can immediately tell the difference with stroking a ball on it. So we're not talking about 60 to 59 µN but something about 60 to 5 µN. 
I really like the idea to get rid of all of these illegal pimples. Using this material cover a (often physical and technical) weakness and to get an advantage has nothing to do with sport. On the other hand I see so many of them played in the lower leagues by old and often not so athletic players. I doubt that they would continue playing table tennis after their material will be really banned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2019 at 11:34pm
I do believe the decision to ban frictionless (and minimum friction level for pimples) was made with amateur players in mind, because I don't think anyone at the professional level used it.

I also agree with ingo_Ger, in that frictionless is an advantage only up to a certain level, above which it because a weakness that can be exploited by higher level players. It takes a high-skilled players (eg Pushblocker) to still play that style at the higher level. It bugs me that players of this style at this level are not given the credit and respect that they deserve. Those that have tried to play this style and the higher level will appreciate how hard it gets.

Note: Although I play with long pimples myself, I don't use frictionless as it does not suit my style.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2019 at 2:05am
Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

I do believe the decision to ban frictionless (and minimum friction level for pimples) was made with 
To quote one of my favorite movies: "I love your innocence. Never lose it."

ITTF *never, ever* makes rules with amateurs in mind.  In  this case, the story behind the ban on frictionless pips is well known, and relates to Dr. Neubeur and some high-up person at ITTF.  I'll let someone else provide the details.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2019 at 2:54am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

To quote one of my favorite movies: "I love your innocence. Never lose it."
That's a little condescending, don't you think? Ouch

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

ITTF *never, ever* makes rules with amateurs in mind.  In  this case, the story behind the ban on frictionless pips is well known, and relates to Dr. Neubeur and some high-up person at ITTF.  I'll let someone else provide the details.

When I say 'amateurs in mind', I mean that they were looking at the effect on amateurs, I wasn't implying it was done for their benefit. Yes I've read lots of things about what really went on, and the people influencing the decisions...hard to know who and what to believe, but it was yet another non-transparent decision by the ITTF.Angry


Edited by haggisv - 07/21/2019 at 3:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2019 at 8:04pm
It's unclear what device will be used to measure low friction, as the ITTF notice on low friction is devoid of any image, but a low friction racket could be deemed illegal based on this regulation if a friction test is added: 

3.4.2.3 A racket shall successfully pass all parameters of the racket control tests.

Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 07/21/2019 at 11:22pm
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Why use money on this  ...  Why not ban all pimpled rubbers ?! Big smileTongueBig smile
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Originally posted by AmiciSumus AmiciSumus wrote:

Why use money on this  ...  Why not ban all pimpled rubbers ?! Big smileTongueBig smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2019 at 10:27pm
Quote I can see how this would be an important rule for you and perhaps emotional. However, if we look at it dispassionately, then I think it's workable.

First, ITTF doesn't invent rules with amateur players in mind.  As far as they're concerned, we don't actually exist. To them, someone at (as an example) your level of play, is no different than the guys in the homeless shelter playing ping pong.  So we might be stuck with rules that make no sense to us because they were designed with us in mind.

Second, "as authorized" has some meaning for how some long pips are being sold.  Last year I posted a thread about some long pips that one of my club mates was (and still is) using.  The pips as  approved by ITTF had some grip, enough that a player could actual put spin on the ball.  However, the same manufacturer also sold a version that was UV treated and were *very* slick.  This second version is very much not "as approved", but people are using it anyway. That's clearly illegal and a test for it would be nice.

Third, you talked about natural wear and loss of friction on all rubbers. I think ITTF would need to set a tolerance for loss.  You gave an example of a rubber that, when new, has a friction of 50 when the legal limit is 50.  After an hour of use, the rubber is now 49 and no longer technically legal.  ITTF would have to argue that you should have bought at rubber that has a friction of 55 (if you change rubbers frequently) or even 60 (if you don't change rubbers frequently).  Their argument would be that they've set the minimum standard for friction and it's up to you to not go below it. If they really thought it was OK for the grip to go down to 49, then they wold have set the minimum standard at, for example, 45.

At the professional level, the pros do change rubbers frequently, so old or abused rubbers aren't really a problem for them.  And, as I said, they are all that ITTF cares about.  At the amateur level, I see rubbers that don't behave right all the time, because they're old or in some way deteriorated.  It leads to some weird or unexpected play, but we're only amateurs and I can't see anyone testing those rubbers.

As for whether ITTF is implementing these rules following the proper procedures: I don't know the ITTF political structure well enough to not what's allowed and what is not.  However, I do know that in most democratic governments (including our federal government and all 50 states), there are multiple ways to implement restrictions that seem like laws.  You can have actual laws passed by a legislature, you can have executive fiats by governors or the President, and you can have administrative rules that are created by bureaucrats.
RULES are just like laws. They say what they say and nothing else. Furthermore, the Board of Directors has not authority of making rules or enforcing rules that do not exist. Just because there is a friction limit for a new rubber in a regulation does not automatically create a rule that the rubber may not go below that friction after being used. The rule just is not there. If I was playing in ITTF sanctioned events, I would sue
 AS I'm not an ITTF member, I would not have standing in such lawsuit.
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So you still can't beat your Grandfather?

Haha ... Just tried to be "funny" but Perhaps you can be my Grandfather ?!  SmileTongue

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2019 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Can anyone show me the rule that requires a untreated rubber to maintain a certain amount of friction? I'm not talking about the regulation that a rubber must have x friction when being manufactored. I'm talking about any RULE that requires a rubber to maintain x amount of friction or x percent of it's original friction to be used in an event. What if a rubber is authorized with 50 micro newton friction and the limit is 50 micro newton. Now the rubber is used for 1 hour and now is 49 micro newton. Where is the rule that the rubber has to stay above that when it was used? As I said, EVERY rubber loses friction naturally and if "as authorized" means the original friction, then no used rubber would be legal for competition as a used rubber does not have it's original properties in as short time as a match. 
Any such rule that requires a certain amount of friction or % of the original friction?

It would be reasonable to assume they will implement a testing methodology to determine a number of metrics which will in turn determine whether or not a rubber is violating the rule and those metrics and associated violating thresholds will be published as a new specific rule in conjunction with the testing methodology.

Also, you may want to read this --> https://www.britannica.com/science/friction

Once that is implemented, you may need to start playing with new rubbers, which are legal according to the new rule set regarding friction. I wouldn't mind what you used, though, I love beating a cheater or a sook but even better when it's both at once.
A rule has to be created that determine on how much percent a rubbers properties may change from use or what friction has to be retained. If they make a rule that requires a rubber to have a certain friction remaining when being used, then that rule would be valid and everyone would have to abide. However, there is no such rule at this point. The only body that creates rules is the AGM. If they don't pass such rules, there is no minimum friction requirement for an untreated, uniform rubber.
It is a scientific fact that properties of rubber changes constantly when being used. If a rubber has x friction when new,  it is pretty safe to say that after let's say 5 hours of use if you would measure the friction, it would be less than when it was new and no longer as authorized.


Edited by Pushblocker - 07/21/2019 at 10:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2019 at 11:35pm
So regulations don't apply unless there's a specific rule regarding it?  From the 2019 ITTF handbook:

3.1.2.6 The Laws and the Regulations for International Competitions shall be presumed to apply unless variations have been agreed in advance or are made clear in the published rules of the competition.

And as I mentioned above, the racket has to pass racket control (for tournaments that actually have racket control) which in the future might include a friction test.

And from the USATT Rules:

2. Adoption of ITTF Rules 2.1. The ITTF Laws of Table Tennis and the ITTF Regulations for International Competitions shall apply, unless superseded by an amendment in this document. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purpletiesto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2019 at 2:51am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Can anyone show me the rule that requires a untreated rubber to maintain a certain amount of friction? I'm not talking about the regulation that a rubber must have x friction when being manufactored. I'm talking about any RULE that requires a rubber to maintain x amount of friction or x percent of it's original friction to be used in an event. What if a rubber is authorized with 50 micro newton friction and the limit is 50 micro newton. Now the rubber is used for 1 hour and now is 49 micro newton. Where is the rule that the rubber has to stay above that when it was used? As I said, EVERY rubber loses friction naturally and if "as authorized" means the original friction, then no used rubber would be legal for competition as a used rubber does not have it's original properties in as short time as a match. 
Any such rule that requires a certain amount of friction or % of the original friction?

It would be reasonable to assume they will implement a testing methodology to determine a number of metrics which will in turn determine whether or not a rubber is violating the rule and those metrics and associated violating thresholds will be published as a new specific rule in conjunction with the testing methodology.

Also, you may want to read this --> https://www.britannica.com/science/friction

Once that is implemented, you may need to start playing with new rubbers, which are legal according to the new rule set regarding friction. I wouldn't mind what you used, though, I love beating a cheater or a sook but even better when it's both at once.
A rule has to be created that determine on how much percent a rubbers properties may change from use or what friction has to be retained. If they make a rule that requires a rubber to have a certain friction remaining when being used, then that rule would be valid and everyone would have to abide. However, there is no such rule at this point. The only body that creates rules is the AGM. If they don't pass such rules, there is no minimum friction requirement for an untreated, uniform rubber.
It is a scientific fact that properties of rubber changes constantly when being used. If a rubber has x friction when new,  it is pretty safe to say that after let's say 5 hours of use if you would measure the friction, it would be less than when it was new and no longer as authorized.

No, there only needs to be a threshold of legality. And they will amend the current rule set to reflect this.

If rubber changes over time, I highly doubt manufacturers would release rubbers on the threshold of what is legal and if they did then more power to them. They may have the opportunity to release competition rubbers which are at the lowest possible metric for friction and also release training rubbers, which may start with more friction.

I am looking forward to the future of table tennis because of these new rules and testing. It shows that they have identified a rampant problem of cheating and cheaters and are taking steps to eliminate it. My club has  already pledged they will invest in the testing equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2019 at 7:04am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

So regulations don't apply unless there's a specific rule regarding it?  From the 2019 ITTF handbook:

3.1.2.6 The Laws and the Regulations for International Competitions shall be presumed to apply unless variations have been agreed in advance or are made clear in the published rules of the competition.

And as I mentioned above, the racket has to pass racket control (for tournaments that actually have racket control) which in the future might include a friction test.

And from the USATT Rules:

2. Adoption of ITTF Rules 2.1. The ITTF Laws of Table Tennis and the ITTF Regulations for International Competitions shall apply, unless superseded by an amendment in this document. 


Regulations apply. The regulations in the technical leaflet are for MANUFACTURERS and outline what properties the ITTF require to authorize a rubber. This means that a rubber, when new, must have certain properties.
There is, however, no RULE that says that a rubber that naturally changes properties after being used is not allowed to be used in competition. There is no rule on how much a rubber can change when being used. If you ask a scientist, he will tell you that the rubber constantly changes when being used and therefore, the moment you start using it, the properties will start to slowly change. There is no RULE that determines on how much a rubber may naturally change. It's just not there. Furthermore, there is no "limit" on what friction a rubber must maintain. IT'S NOT THERE!
As I said, if the limit is 55 micro newton and a rubber has exactly that friction when new, the rubber certainly will no longer have 55 micro newton if it has been used for a couple of hours. There is no rule that would make a rubber illegal to use if it drops below 55 micro newton as there is no rule that sets a friction limit that a used, untreaded rubber must retain. IT IS NOT THERE!
It's very easy to implement a minimum friction for being used in events. The AGM can easily pass a rule that requires x micro newton of friction to be retained in order for a rubber to be legal in competition.


Edited by Pushblocker - 07/22/2019 at 7:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2019 at 7:07am
Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Can anyone show me the rule that requires a untreated rubber to maintain a certain amount of friction? I'm not talking about the regulation that a rubber must have x friction when being manufactored. I'm talking about any RULE that requires a rubber to maintain x amount of friction or x percent of it's original friction to be used in an event. What if a rubber is authorized with 50 micro newton friction and the limit is 50 micro newton. Now the rubber is used for 1 hour and now is 49 micro newton. Where is the rule that the rubber has to stay above that when it was used? As I said, EVERY rubber loses friction naturally and if "as authorized" means the original friction, then no used rubber would be legal for competition as a used rubber does not have it's original properties in as short time as a match. 
Any such rule that requires a certain amount of friction or % of the original friction?

It would be reasonable to assume they will implement a testing methodology to determine a number of metrics which will in turn determine whether or not a rubber is violating the rule and those metrics and associated violating thresholds will be published as a new specific rule in conjunction with the testing methodology.

Also, you may want to read this --> https://www.britannica.com/science/friction

Once that is implemented, you may need to start playing with new rubbers, which are legal according to the new rule set regarding friction. I wouldn't mind what you used, though, I love beating a cheater or a sook but even better when it's both at once.
A rule has to be created that determine on how much percent a rubbers properties may change from use or what friction has to be retained. If they make a rule that requires a rubber to have a certain friction remaining when being used, then that rule would be valid and everyone would have to abide. However, there is no such rule at this point. The only body that creates rules is the AGM. If they don't pass such rules, there is no minimum friction requirement for an untreated, uniform rubber.
It is a scientific fact that properties of rubber changes constantly when being used. If a rubber has x friction when new,  it is pretty safe to say that after let's say 5 hours of use if you would measure the friction, it would be less than when it was new and no longer as authorized.

No, there only needs to be a threshold of legality. And they will amend the current rule set to reflect this.

If rubber changes over time, I highly doubt manufacturers would release rubbers on the threshold of what is legal and if they did then more power to them. They may have the opportunity to release competition rubbers which are at the lowest possible metric for friction and also release training rubbers, which may start with more friction.

I am looking forward to the future of table tennis because of these new rules and testing. It shows that they have identified a rampant problem of cheating and cheaters and are taking steps to eliminate it. My club has  already pledged they will invest in the testing equipment.
So, with other words, you think that the ITTF can just make shit up no matter if there is a rule to support it or not.. 
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Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
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