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Topmost outer layer=composite. Is it legal ? |
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Charlie Brown
Gold Member Joined: 03/17/2019 Location: PineTreeCorners Status: Offline Points: 1079 |
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Posted: 09/25/2019 at 4:54pm |
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it is legal in TTX ;)
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*sigh*
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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Be happy. Edited by igorponger - 09/24/2019 at 8:09pm |
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stiltt
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BTW...the blade is now with alexli. For historical purposes... The Iliad: The Odyssey:
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Baal
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This is correct. That blade had a layer of silver-gray paint all over the blade surface that made it so you could not feel or see the underlying grain of the wood. (See my earlier post on Technical Leaflet T4 where they use that as a criterion). The blade is something of a collectors item now. As an aside, a clubmate of mine had one and it was really hard to get rubbers to stick to it. It still amazes me that a company like Butterfly would manufacture a blade like that with great fanfare (for one of their signature international players) and then come up with something illegal! This is what it looked like (it's the blade on the top left when you click the link below): Edited by Baal - 09/12/2019 at 4:51pm |
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Baal
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NaanAvana I already quoted from the document from ITTF that should have proved to you what the regulation is. Your argument about the meaning of "within" or other stuff doesn't matter. The relevant section is A. Qualitative Criteria and Paragraph 2. I already quoted it but you can click here and check it for yourself. To be honest, any further argument as to what the actual regulation is (regarding whether you can have a composite as the outer layer) will be interpreted as trolling. As of September 2019, such a blade would be illegal and would not be allowed if it was checked by a tournament official. Edited by Baal - 09/12/2019 at 4:44pm |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Knock yourself out. Been there, done that. History repeats itself. http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39602&PID=487843&title=ma-lins-serve-legal#487843
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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pingpungpeng
Silver Member Joined: 12/14/2017 Location: chaila Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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I'm not talking about associations. I'm talking about playing level. The people who play ittf tournaments all have this playing level. If you go to an ittf tournament with a poor playing level you will get crushed in the group zone. it's a waste of time and money.
Edited by pingpungpeng - 09/12/2019 at 11:14am |
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NaanAvana
Beginner Joined: 09/11/2019 Location: Frankfurt Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Congratulations , you reposted something from ITTF that was already posted in the beginning of this thread. Still does not explain what "within" means which is open to very subjective interpretation. I could interpret it to mean any layer within the blade meaning including outermost layer
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NaanAvana
Beginner Joined: 09/11/2019 Location: Frankfurt Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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WRONG If you are from same Association , I think you just enter. If you are from a different national association, that association needs to give you an OK I think but for that I do not think you need to be on National Team |
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pingpungpeng
Silver Member Joined: 12/14/2017 Location: chaila Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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guys...... do you understand that the players who play ittf tournaments are in "national team" level?
unless you are in the national team at 15 years old, you probably don't need to worry about what ittf wants.
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zeio
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https://ittf.cdnomega.com/eu/2018/12/call-for-blades-4.pdf
Edited by zeio - 09/12/2019 at 6:21am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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zeio
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The wording here is rather straight and clear to me, that "an adhesive layer within the blade may be reinforced with fibrous material..."
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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ITTF has it on their webpage now. It is a free PDF download. Actually I think there are 8 of them. It's not my rule its ITTF so disagree with them if you want. I'm just reporting the current state of affairs.
Search for it and you will find it easily. It's pretty dull reading. As for why ITTF uses such strange wording, it has bugged me for a long time especially when it comes to enforcing serve rules. In the case of the racket it is pretty clear. The rackets and rubbers sold by main TT online vendors will be legal. Aliexpress is very hit or miss but even there most blades you could buy would be legal. Also in Germany where you live there are actual TT shops with experts who can help you buy the right stuff. You live in one of the best places in the world for a TT enthusiast. Clubs everywhere and lots of good players.
Edited by Baal - 09/11/2019 at 11:54pm |
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NaanAvana
Beginner Joined: 09/11/2019 Location: Frankfurt Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Thank you . But you keep referring to this Leaflet over & over. Where can I find this leaflet ? Does it cost me to buy from ITTF ? Why does ITTF make things so difficult ? All they need to do is remove the word "within" and add a clause that says " The outermost layers have to be only wood" . As far as I see it now, "within" to me means anything within the racket including outerlayer. I strongly disagree with poster BAAL It is like I need a legalman (attorney ot advocate or barrister as they say) before a new person like me buys a racket and goes to a competition ( only to be banned from ITTF in shame)
Edited by NaanAvana - 09/11/2019 at 10:05pm |
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Baal
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Blades don't need ITTF approval but they have to follow ITTF guidelines stated in Technical Leaflet T4. At sanctioned events they may inspect your racket for compliance with rules on blade and coverings. Rubbers do have to be approved by ITTF.
They could of course revise that leaflet to allow this but I for one doubt they will. Edited by Baal - 09/11/2019 at 9:56pm |
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NaanAvana
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Do blades need ITTF approval ? I was told you don't. All this is very confusing. I am new & am trying to buy a racket and don't want to buy wrong one and get banned by ITTF
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Baal
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ITTF Technical Leaflet T4 states:
2. Blade A very thin layer of lacquer is permitted on the blade, only for the purpose of anchoring wood fibres, thereby facilitating replacement of the racket covering. Anything more than this will be deemed to constitute a layer of plastic, and will not be permitted. This layer may be no more than 0.1 mm thick, and should not hide the wood from sight or touch. It is considered to be part of the blade, rather than part of the thickness of the racket covering. A thin layer of paint or plastic laminate is permitted on an uncovered non-striking side of the blade, for the purpose of having a proper red or black side. |
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1dennistt
Silver Member Joined: 03/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 533 |
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Wow! Now these do appear to have the fiber on the outside of the blade. It will be interesting to see if they get ITTF approval. Thanks for the links.
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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
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pingpungpeng
Silver Member Joined: 12/14/2017 Location: chaila Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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a few more
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1dennistt
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Yes, that is an outer, it has the carbon just under the dark surface ply wood. It is 5 plys of wood and 2 layers of carbon. TT11 has a great photo taken from the side of the blade of the composition, that allow you to see the 3 center plys, the carbon layers and the outer dark surface wood. An interesting pattern they have chosen for the paint on the outer layer of the blade, I'm guessing it would not work with most OX long pips, too dark. I guess it is suppose to look like carbon fiber weave? Looks gray in some pictures and black in others depending on the lighting used.
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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
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pingpungpeng
Silver Member Joined: 12/14/2017 Location: chaila Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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this blade has that characteristic
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1dennistt
Silver Member Joined: 03/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 533 |
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Usually
when I have seen the terms inner and outer denoting ZLC blades it is
the positioning of the fiber within the blade. If the fiber is only one
layer under the surface then it is "termed" an outer layer, while if it
is buried deeper under the surface then it is termed and inner layer.
In both cases the fiber is under the wood, just depends on how many
layers of wood are above the fiber. One would be considered outer, 2 or
more layers of wood above the fiber would be an inner positioning. |
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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2336 |
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Correct. In the late nineties-early noughties, Butterfly put out a Kreanga blade with an outer composite layer. Referees did not allow the blade. I think that ITTF issued a clarification stating that the Kreanga was illegal for competition. This is from my sometime flaky memory. What I do remember is that the blade was very expensive so several players lost out financially. I suppose that today, Butterfly would have to refund or replace.
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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Hozuki
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2017 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 477 |
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xvt has an external ZLC blade
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Splintering will be a thing of the past. No more griping over joint veneer. More room to play with weight, thickness and stiffness.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Not ambiguous at all.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Once you aren't restricted to wood, you can use materials with more consistency. You can also use different materials to create a different variety of spin/speed producing effects.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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TT newbie
Gold Member Joined: 11/25/2011 Location: Far Far Away Status: Offline Points: 1391 |
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Apart from being legal or not, what would be the advantages of a composite outer layer?
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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It's coming. That rule will be changed in the near future.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Silver Server
Beginner Joined: 08/26/2019 Location: DMV Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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I often wonder if the composition will ever change in the future to complete man made materials. To where wooden blades are ancient relics lol.
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