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Supinate vs Pronate |
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Makelele
Super Member Joined: 11/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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Posted: 11/26/2020 at 8:40am |
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Just to ilustrate the terms.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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LOL if you've already played 50 years there's no point to changing anything anymore...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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smackman
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Is this English, I have played for over 50 years and don't understand anything above ,
I thought the thread was about Dignics and Tenergy |
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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OK :)
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yes, because you raised your arm lol which opened the blade angle, it is not forearm pronation... besides that stroke wouldn't be imparting any significant topspin compared to a supination heavy stroke.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 984 |
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Hi peeps, I took the freedom to move the thread to the coaching section, it should not change anything if you have a favorite to it, the URL stays the same.
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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It should be an extreme point to show that yes - he wen as smart as he could - because of base he had that time. But with different approach - it's not a big deal to return such cases without loosing initiative.
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Valiantsin
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I do not understand you. You saw cases of pronation on BH - at least how I did that. And still maintain your point? :)
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stiltt
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Edited by stiltt - 11/25/2020 at 9:10pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I still maintain my point, there is only pronation in the FH loop and supination for the BH loop. You must always have the increasingly closing of the racket angle no matter what. For heavy backspin, what you do is you contact the ball at say 3-4 O clock, and at the end of your stroke it should end at maybe around 1-2 O clock. If you don't use pronation/supination you can still loop the ball, the spin will be just much weaker. And if you use the reverse you won't be able to generate any significant topspin. Now here I'm talking about contact and only about forearm pronation/supination. There are other factors which change the blade angle, especially when there is a sideways component of the stroke, which is I believe where the confusion is...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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For relaxed arm - is ok - let's forget about it - it should be relaxed with a bit tension to control.
Leave it here. I am on this topic - about pronation and supination and why and in which cases you would prefer one instead of another in FH and in BH.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hmm I don't quite understand your point. Yes ideally all the components of the strokes have to come together in one explosive movement, but it's quite difficult to time it well such that they are acting together unless you're loose in the arms. You can of course reduce body rotation to gain recovery time, the focus on consistency vs all in is quite individual. I know some guys who love to go all in (especially penholders) even when they have to lose balance, some go 50% and try for a rally. Actually it's an interesting topic also, my friend told me that I was too risk averse and halfhearted lol, he advised me to ignore mistakes and just try looping as high quality as possible for every loop (probably 80%-90%) without losing balance. So basically just go for all the shots without hesitation, and don't care so much about losing. Zhang Jike definitely underestimated how spinny and short the serve was gonna be (due to the extreme backspin) and mistimed the loop so failed. He would probably have dumped the serve in the net even if he pushed considering that he misjudged the spin and length of the serve.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
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Hm :) We again about a bit different. I am about actual training with real base exercises - from the roots. Agree with all that stuff with legs/hips, but while it's necessary - it's not enough. You should apply that energy somehow and should know how to dampen inertia to move one way or vice versa - how to use inertia to move another way - according to the combination you are implementing. What I am actually speaking about - trade off - between speed/spin and ability to move to next proper position. Like consistency against all-in if you want. In that case with Jan Jike - he could implement FH topspin - but for that - he should be trained differently so that his legs would allow him to come to different place and in worst case he could just flip or push that Ma Lin serve, of course it would be different style of game. But that time two only things Jan Jike could do (cause he was trained that way) - he could either push or topspin and he failed on topspin - different approach, mb better for some other cases but not that time. And further TT goes - worse that old Jan Jikes approach for FH works. Different tendencies. And many people now learn how to deal with that. Actually here is a cycle where FH game goes in place again in start of point but with different targets.
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blahness
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Yeah I mean if it's just training it's useful to reinforce it so that you know how to use it (and it makes a huge difference initially). But I think once you got the hang of it it's actually even better to "forget" about it and just do it naturally. My friend observed me playing and noted that while the stroke path was good I was losing a lot of the force from my body (even though I was actually doing it, I was not transferring it effectively into the ball) because I was concentrating too much on the wrist/forearm action. So the advice was to loosen the arm entirely (trust in yourself to do the correct thing), focus more on the legs/hips and then explode into the ball naturally. I tried it and it really improved the stroke quality significantly because I was actually timing the various acceleration components better. From the outside, the stroke looks exactly the same but the quality is significantly higher lol.
Edited by blahness - 11/25/2020 at 8:13pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
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I agree about game stuff. But what about training sessions? I mean not those "hard to teach an old dog new tricks" but those guys who are yet flexible in mind?
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blahness
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One tip I had from a super high level friend (which I can only get 4-5 points per game) is that this is all well and good, but once you've learnt it you should "forget" about it and stay loose, the mechanism will be even stronger when it's naturally combined with all the other moving parts of the stroke.The danger is that we focus so much on the pronation/supination that it becomes the driver of the stroke rather than the body, this will lead to spinny but weak strokes.
Edited by blahness - 11/25/2020 at 7:56pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
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Hi stiltt,
I believe you are right :) But for me belly button is pretty good point for BH :) So it was about classic stuff. Modern tt is very fast - the stroke should be shorter and faster - it is not really well rotated sometimes - take a look at Harimoto - often times ball goes down to the net after his opponent tries to block it. To shorten it without loosing speed and not loosing precision - what could you do? Also for FH - you have to flip/topspin and the ball has underspin and pretty fast and lower the net - what could you do? :) I mean something like on this video: what could Jan Jike do not to fail in that case?
Edited by Valiantsin - 11/25/2020 at 7:50pm |
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blahness
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Just tried it out, those are good cues.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 984 |
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To keep things simple, right or left handed:
-Pronation in the fh is starting with the palm facing up and finishing with the palm facing down. Of course at the end of the fh back swing, people often have the palm facing down but it does not have to be to produce a good fh, it's just for simplicity, giving a one dimensional fh that flies through a plane. We could push saying that palm facing down at the end of the fh back swing is technically incomplete because we'll just have the brushing without any help from the pronation. -Supination in the bh is starting with the palm facing down and finishing with the palm facing up. Of course at the end of the bh back swing, people often have the palm facing up but it does not have to be to produce a good bh, it's just for simplicity, giving a one dimensional bh that flies through a plane. We could push saying that palm facing up at the end of the bh back swing is technically incomplete because we'll just have the brushing without any help from the supination. ---------- An idea to train pronation in the fh is finishing the fh back swing with the thumb able to point behind us. It can only point forward when we cancel pronation out with the palm facing down at the end of the back swing. An idea to train supination in the bh is finishing the bh back swing with the thumb able to press the belly button. Only the pinky can do that when we cancel supination out with the palm facing up at the end of the back swing. Note: it is not comfortable to train supination that way on the bh, I find easier to finish the bh back swing with the thumb able to press on the non playing hip.Edited by stiltt - 11/25/2020 at 7:28pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Played today and my blue sponge Hurricane was close to unplayable :(
I think I'm getting sick of Hurricanes hardening prematurely and feeling like a brick unless you boost/tune it again, just gonna switch to double D09c from now on and save myself all the trouble.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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Thank you :) Just would like to tell that those who tell following 3 things are right in their own way: 1) There is no "wrap" movement; 2) There is "wrap" movement; 3) The pronation or supination is build into the full stroke motion; Point 1) is right from Physics - yes - there is no rolling of ball and there is no wrapping around the ball with the paddle; Instead there is a really short interaction period between the ball, the rubber and the wood. Angles in which this interaction happened together with motion on the ball and motion of paddle apply tension to the rubber which is making shot itself. Point 2) is right from Proprioception - it is the sense through which we perceive the position and movement of our body, senses that depend on the notion of force It is connected with muscle spindles - actual organelle which reacts to something that happened with our muscles. In this case it is our feedback from the paddle - and it is 0.1-0.001 sec (depending on action potential of fusimotor action - whether calcium(slow) or natrium(fast)) late as the contact already happened. So here we come to the 3) point. Point 3) is right from the point of biomechanics. We stretch the motion of pronation on approximate period of time when we expect that actual interaction between ball and paddle will happen. It is actually not the only motion we do with our wrist. It's impossible to isolately do stroke without using any of them: flexion/extension, radial/ulnar deviation or pronation/supination, because balancing of paddle will include all of them anyway. The only thing - it's better to know about them and to use properly instead of closing the eyes and not taking them to attention. Edited by Valiantsin - 11/23/2020 at 12:21pm |
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DonnOlsen
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Dignics completely destroys Tenergy in short game control and also the amount of gears available.
Here is a view: More precisely, using the "gears" metaphor, Dignics has more lower gears, Dignics does not have more higher gears. Moreover, it may be argued Tenergy has more higher gears, and Tenergy 05 Hard has the most high gears. Thanks.
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Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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bars
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and booster
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bars
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its amazing how the tone has changed about tenergy lol. you could say that about carbon blades also |
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ghostzen
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Yep that changed quick didn't it The new world order and all Dignics and Tenergy discussions are soo last year. Better to discuss the sometime invisible sometimes not movements which seems tricky to actually explain plainly.
Valiatstin video work is nice and appreciated definitely as a way to shed more clear light on "wrapping" the ball to increase stroke quality. Jokes aside both are a good topic
Edited by ghostzen - 11/23/2020 at 3:57am |
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fmarek
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Didn't you get it yet? Dic**ics is for pronation while Tenergy is for supination or the other way around LOL
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ghostzen
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Nice videos and thanks for creating and posting
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blahness
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Palm direction is basically the same as the blade angle. When you raise the hand, your palm direction naturally changes. But raising your hand is not pronation... this is also why this topic is so difficult :(
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
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One more time - take a look at palm direction i.e. bones - I do not speak anything about blade now. So when the palm to wrist joint is in the same plane together with elbow part of bones then it's a marker for you. If you take a look after that to these exact parts of wrist you will easily see where the pronation took place and where supination. It's evident that sometimes FZD does supination, sometimes pronation. |
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blahness
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I know where you're getting at. It's mainly because you're looking at the blade angle changes going from closed to open hence it must be pronation. But really what I'm trying to explain is that it's not necessarily the case. Try lifting your hand and watch how the blade angle changes.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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