|
|
Supinate vs Pronate |
Post Reply | Page 123 4> |
Author | |||||
jpenmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 12/24/2008 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 2176 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 11/11/2020 at 7:45pm |
||||
Now that these rubbers have been out for a while which do you prefer and why. I switched to Dignics but might be going back to Tenergy.
Edited by jpenmaster - 11/22/2020 at 9:52am |
|||||
OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip
|
|||||
Sponsored Links | |||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Dignics completely destroys Tenergy in short game control and also the amount of gears available.
Tenergy is good only if you need the rubber to help you out in power...
|
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
IMHO:
T05fx is better for banana, for flip. D05 much better in short game and in pushes and chopblocks. T05fx is better for thin balls (in receives and against semi-short pushes) T05fx is better for serves. So basically close to table game is better with soft T05fx (except short game pushes and chopblocks), and the farther from the table - the better D05 be it bh or fh. Did not try D09c
|
|||||
nv42
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2013 Location: india Status: Offline Points: 466 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Imo, the biggest advantage dignics provides is in the active rally game, mainly the counter loop, which is what many pros give most preferance to. For a regular club player that wants something really close to a d05 in hardness and power, a mxp50 feels the the most similar.
|
|||||
1.dhs pg2 fl
-FH t05h (max) -BH tibhar genius (max) |
|||||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
i like d05 over t05. D05 is easier to handle and to spin.
|
|||||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||||
Knuckle Ball
Super Member Joined: 05/26/2012 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 245 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Dignics 05 solves the sensitivity to incoming spin I've had with T05. D05 is also much better in blocking. I still love the spin generation and looping of T05. So for me DO5 on backhand and T05 on forehand.
|
|||||
Blade: Rosewood NCT V
FH: Dignics 05 Black BH: Moristo SP Red |
|||||
DonnOlsen
Gold Member Joined: 11/15/2008 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1751 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Hi,
This is a good topic of discussion, however its meaningfulness would be increased with the direct inclusion of Tenergy 05 Hard in the equation of the question, as its attributes are of a distinction from Tenergy as to be worthy of standalone analysis. Thanks.
|
|||||
Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
|
|||||
BrunodeDanann
Super Member Joined: 11/12/2007 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 278 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Which one is less angle sensitive?
Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot. Would a harder rubber be easier?
|
|||||
Harimoto ALC
HUrricane 3 Vega asia |
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique. However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle) I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). |
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1010 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
I was told that the brain can't act so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting. Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.
|
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
Tbh this technique produces much more spin than the thin brush method.
Yes the brain can't really act that fast, it's really a timing thing, so the pronation/supination actually has to occur before contact. The main thing is to engage the pronation/supination mechanism which allows for much more power and spin generation. To do this you also need strong forearm muscles since the muscles controlling pronation/supination are in the forearm. I bought a Powerball to train these muscles up and it seems to be making a huge difference haha... Edited by blahness - 11/12/2020 at 4:24pm |
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
SmackDAT
Platinum Member Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 2231 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Agreed, I have the same contact especially for forehand counters
|
|||||
Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
|
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
The Yassun video is a bit misleading. What he really does differently vs Guchy is swing faster and with better timing and he is likely stronger/faster physically as well.
In general, players who spin with more brush rotation are often not able to get to the ball consistently enough to bring their power to bear on it and when when they do, they may lack the energy to generate power consistently. It isn't so much about a technical approach to contact as it is the ability to swing faster and get spin with speed. It is also difficult to get to the ball consistently on time and if you get to it late, unless you have good knee-bend and stay low, you will need to arc the ball to stay safe. If you are contacting the ball more solidly, that is a good thing for consistency. But if you want to hit the ball consistently better, the path is usually to get a faster swing into the ball more consistently while swinging in a curved path over the top of the ball. But I would argue that the issue when you brush too much is that you don't swing fast enough consistently and not that you are not making solid contact. Once most of your loops use fast swings, you have reached a different level of play.
Edited by NextLevel - 11/12/2020 at 10:19pm |
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Yassun doesn't really teach the pronation contact (that he unconsciously does use but not to the full extent possible). The video was more about how to hit harder and to have better body mechanics. What I notice is that hitting harder without increasing the spin is useless because you will just increase your unforced errors. The harder you hit, the more spin you need to keep the ball on the table.
|
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
For reference this is what I was referring to.
|
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball. It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show.
|
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
I had to hold the camera in one hand lol...but yes I intentionally separated it from the other components (forearm snap+body rotation) to make the mechanism clearer. But I disagree about the range shown being too large, if you combine it with the entire swing plane (imagine the pronation being done throughout the stroke), it looks a lot more subtle, I can have a stroke with pronation/supination and one without, and they will look almost the same. If you look at for eg Ovtcharov's BH loop and compare his blade angles between start and end, his range of supination is even larger than what I shown here, especially against underspin.
|
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Okay. I think the last sentence is true, but that is because the distance over which supination occurs is controlled by more than just the elbow joint so you CAN have supination without forcing it. Hence my point that when it happens throughout the swing plane, it doesn't need to be a pronounced as you make out. In any case, the way you do it is not the way most people use it to hit a ball.
Edited by NextLevel - 11/13/2020 at 7:03am |
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
That I believe is biomechanically incorrect. The range of movement of forearm supination is controlled solely from the forearm and nothing else. See If you watch the blade angle changes between start and finish for the modern players, their start and finishing angles wouldn't look the way they look if not for the pronation and supination they are doing. Also if you look at out of position strong shots, you will see ample evidence of the pronation/supination. The supination mechanism has huge amounts of power reserves, but if you haven't really focused on it, it would be weak. There's some degree of strength training required for this muscle. Recently TableTennisDaily had a video with Ovtcharov, and he commented that Dan was not strong enough in his forearm which is why he's not explosive enough. If you look at other sports (tennis, badminton for eg), pronation/supination Is really one of the basics, for good reason. What I did looks weird to you, because you haven't really realised how to use it to its fullest extents. |
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Okay - I fixed my post before your finished responding to it but probably while you were editing. I won't get into what I don't realize. I am just pointing out that for a looping stroke, your demonstration seems to hit excessively into the ball. Here is Dan Ives of TTD doing what I the stroke - it forms a plane with the ball and snaps into it: https://youtu.be/2QoQh3_12WE?t=44 Here is YangYang: https://youtu.be/VLQHP609pzQ?t=173 Here is Jang Woojin using it vs topspin: https://youtu.be/RI8u-xmEP5g?t=124 Here is Jang Woojin discouraging what you are demonstrating except for possibly on Chiquitas (and he isn't quite breaking the plane of motion of his wrist either): https://youtu.be/RI8u-xmEP5g?t=297 My other point is that there are other parts of the body including the bowing motion and the movement of the shoulder joint and hip rotation that add to the effect of supination so that when hitting a ball, it isn't exclusively about the elbow motion. I don't doubt you can supinate on a few shots like that but it isn't what most people hit the ball with unless they are trying to trap spin they didn't prepare for. In any case I have gone on about this a bit too long. My apologies for making it an issue. I agree that there is some supination and pronation but I don't think your arm motions shadow what is going on when playing a topspin because the wrist is being overused without forming a angle that spins the ball. Edited by NextLevel - 11/13/2020 at 8:08am |
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
I don't think we are on different pages here. It is a part of a larger stroke which involves the legs, core, body rotation, forearm snap, all of which are as important. Obviously if you just have pronation/supination, you only get a spinny shot with no power at all which is not all that useful, however this detail helps with stability and spin on an existing stroke hugely. There are benefits to isolating the movement in terms of understanding the contact mechanisms. |
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Everyone in those videos is supinating so I am not sure why you are focusing on Jang Woojin (maybe his playing level?) They are doing it without breaking the plane of their swing when they contact the ball. And here is LowerLevel supinating as well without any of the class or quality of the aforementioned players who are all too good for me: https://youtu.be/N_P72IXZMVA?t=8 I could get videos from the others you mentioned that show they aren't that different but I won't belabor the point but to just some from Dima. All I am saying that your demonstration doesn't show how one would play a topspin with supination. I am just giving examples so that they can be distinguished from what you demonstrated. If you snapped into contact with the ball and kept a plane, I wouldn't be posting all this.
Edited by NextLevel - 11/13/2020 at 8:45am |
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
supination and pronation are used to increase power or reduce movement path.
Ovtcharov mostly supinates on BH, while Fan pronates. What was shown on video can be used for both flat hit and for heaviest topspin.
|
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Maybe I am just not clear on what blahness and you mean by pronation and supination. That may be confusing me.
|
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Believe need to create one more video to explain better. Contact point and overall body biomechanics are crucial.
|
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Lmao I don't understand the confusion here, forearm pronation and supination are scientific terms for a specific movement. You supinate every time you turn a door knob or unscrew a bottle cap.
Valiantsin is correct in saying that it can be applied towards the heaviest topspins as well as flat hitting, even Ito Mima's BH flathit is almost purely supination. And yes Ovtcharov's powerful topspin BH is mostly supination too. Edited by blahness - 11/13/2020 at 4:31pm |
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
He said Fan pronates on backhand. I try to take what people write as seriously and charitably as I can.
|
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
|
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
But anyway this thread has been hijacked too much, the original topic was Dignics vs Tenergy.....
|
|||||
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||||
Post Reply | Page 123 4> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |