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Supinate vs Pronate |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Just tried it out, those are good cues.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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Hi stiltt,
I believe you are right :) But for me belly button is pretty good point for BH :) So it was about classic stuff. Modern tt is very fast - the stroke should be shorter and faster - it is not really well rotated sometimes - take a look at Harimoto - often times ball goes down to the net after his opponent tries to block it. To shorten it without loosing speed and not loosing precision - what could you do? Also for FH - you have to flip/topspin and the ball has underspin and pretty fast and lower the net - what could you do? :) I mean something like on this video: what could Jan Jike do not to fail in that case?
Edited by Valiantsin - 11/25/2020 at 7:50pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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One tip I had from a super high level friend (which I can only get 4-5 points per game) is that this is all well and good, but once you've learnt it you should "forget" about it and stay loose, the mechanism will be even stronger when it's naturally combined with all the other moving parts of the stroke.The danger is that we focus so much on the pronation/supination that it becomes the driver of the stroke rather than the body, this will lead to spinny but weak strokes.
Edited by blahness - 11/25/2020 at 7:56pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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I agree about game stuff. But what about training sessions? I mean not those "hard to teach an old dog new tricks" but those guys who are yet flexible in mind?
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yeah I mean if it's just training it's useful to reinforce it so that you know how to use it (and it makes a huge difference initially). But I think once you got the hang of it it's actually even better to "forget" about it and just do it naturally. My friend observed me playing and noted that while the stroke path was good I was losing a lot of the force from my body (even though I was actually doing it, I was not transferring it effectively into the ball) because I was concentrating too much on the wrist/forearm action. So the advice was to loosen the arm entirely (trust in yourself to do the correct thing), focus more on the legs/hips and then explode into the ball naturally. I tried it and it really improved the stroke quality significantly because I was actually timing the various acceleration components better. From the outside, the stroke looks exactly the same but the quality is significantly higher lol.
Edited by blahness - 11/25/2020 at 8:13pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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Hm :) We again about a bit different. I am about actual training with real base exercises - from the roots. Agree with all that stuff with legs/hips, but while it's necessary - it's not enough. You should apply that energy somehow and should know how to dampen inertia to move one way or vice versa - how to use inertia to move another way - according to the combination you are implementing. What I am actually speaking about - trade off - between speed/spin and ability to move to next proper position. Like consistency against all-in if you want. In that case with Jan Jike - he could implement FH topspin - but for that - he should be trained differently so that his legs would allow him to come to different place and in worst case he could just flip or push that Ma Lin serve, of course it would be different style of game. But that time two only things Jan Jike could do (cause he was trained that way) - he could either push or topspin and he failed on topspin - different approach, mb better for some other cases but not that time. And further TT goes - worse that old Jan Jikes approach for FH works. Different tendencies. And many people now learn how to deal with that. Actually here is a cycle where FH game goes in place again in start of point but with different targets.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hmm I don't quite understand your point. Yes ideally all the components of the strokes have to come together in one explosive movement, but it's quite difficult to time it well such that they are acting together unless you're loose in the arms. You can of course reduce body rotation to gain recovery time, the focus on consistency vs all in is quite individual. I know some guys who love to go all in (especially penholders) even when they have to lose balance, some go 50% and try for a rally. Actually it's an interesting topic also, my friend told me that I was too risk averse and halfhearted lol, he advised me to ignore mistakes and just try looping as high quality as possible for every loop (probably 80%-90%) without losing balance. So basically just go for all the shots without hesitation, and don't care so much about losing. Zhang Jike definitely underestimated how spinny and short the serve was gonna be (due to the extreme backspin) and mistimed the loop so failed. He would probably have dumped the serve in the net even if he pushed considering that he misjudged the spin and length of the serve.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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For relaxed arm - is ok - let's forget about it - it should be relaxed with a bit tension to control.
Leave it here. I am on this topic - about pronation and supination and why and in which cases you would prefer one instead of another in FH and in BH.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I still maintain my point, there is only pronation in the FH loop and supination for the BH loop. You must always have the increasingly closing of the racket angle no matter what. For heavy backspin, what you do is you contact the ball at say 3-4 O clock, and at the end of your stroke it should end at maybe around 1-2 O clock. If you don't use pronation/supination you can still loop the ball, the spin will be just much weaker. And if you use the reverse you won't be able to generate any significant topspin. Now here I'm talking about contact and only about forearm pronation/supination. There are other factors which change the blade angle, especially when there is a sideways component of the stroke, which is I believe where the confusion is...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1009 |
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Edited by stiltt - 11/25/2020 at 9:10pm |
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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I do not understand you. You saw cases of pronation on BH - at least how I did that. And still maintain your point? :)
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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It should be an extreme point to show that yes - he wen as smart as he could - because of base he had that time. But with different approach - it's not a big deal to return such cases without loosing initiative.
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1009 |
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Hi peeps, I took the freedom to move the thread to the coaching section, it should not change anything if you have a favorite to it, the URL stays the same.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yes, because you raised your arm lol which opened the blade angle, it is not forearm pronation... besides that stroke wouldn't be imparting any significant topspin compared to a supination heavy stroke.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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OK :)
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Is this English, I have played for over 50 years and don't understand anything above ,
I thought the thread was about Dignics and Tenergy |
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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LOL if you've already played 50 years there's no point to changing anything anymore...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Makelele
Super Member Joined: 11/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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Just to ilustrate the terms.
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