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short pips experiment -what equipment |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Posted: 03/07/2021 at 4:34am |
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I heard lots of good stuff about short pips and want to try it out myself
I mean my skillsets should probably transfer quite well to short pips, pushflicks, strawberry, chiquita, short stroke miniloops, chopblocks should be able to transition smoothly to their pips equivalent haha. I'm looking of more of an Ito Mima style except with a much more loopier FH. Can anyone recommend a good setup for me (blade + pips). I'll be using D09c for my FH as my serves and FH powerloop is a major point winner for me.
Edited by blahness - 03/07/2021 at 4:35am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Basquests
Silver Member Joined: 08/29/2016 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 520 |
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You know your game better than anyone.
Two great resources would be: 1) Short pimples forum on OOAK. 1000's of posts about SP's, with stickied guides 2) I used the 'wayback' machine, which is a project that has archived a big chunk of the internet. Fortunately, it archived pipfacts.com, which was 'the' pimples website for advice and understanding re: pips, but the actual website is no longer available [hence using the wayback machine]. I learnt a lot about the theory about pips from there, everything else was the robot helping me with it's reproducible balls to help figure out the technique [which is why understanding the theory is important, as it helps you get to a good technical shot quicker]. The pip geometry is important. Some rubbers the pips are aligned vertically, others horizontally. Given how we play a Fh and BH, I'm guessing you want the opposite alignment that I do as a FH pips player. edit: I found a resource about the last point; http://mytabletennis.net/forum/vertical-vs-horizontal-short-pips_topic88171.html You will need to decide what you want your pips to do. Sponge thickness affects how much spin you can generate, as does the alignment and as does other factors; i picked Razka PO with max sponge as the alignment suits a FH player who wants to generate spin ie still wanted to be able to loop and push etc. The MAX was to get the most spin i could, as well as higher top end speed. However, the cost [every benefit with pips / additional thickness comes with a cost] is it's more spin sensitive and it is harder to deal with spinny balls / flat hit any type of ball by a lot compared to older-gen pips with thin sponges [and the newer versions of the classic SP's]. I don't know how important or how recommended it would be to be able to loop easier for example, as it varies based on the player, and definitely is less important on the BH than FH. When I had inverted, I loved to vary between looping and flat hitting to upset my opponent, so wanted to do this with pips too. With a BH, it is less important to have multiple ways of hitting a ball fast, especially if it comes at the cost of consistency. If you want to play Mima style, why not just go with her pips. Make sure you get the version of pips correct [there are multiple Moristo versions]. She uses Nittaku Acoustic Carbon; I simply kept using the acoustic carbon inner [LG handle] - a very similar blade. It seems to work beautifully for me - any deficiencies are my own. I see no reason to not simply keep using the HL5 you currently own, unless you need to keep that bat for your normal inverted bat and hence would need a second blade for your 'experiment' [I bought a second Acoustic Inner Carbon as I love the blade]. Edited by Basquests - 03/07/2021 at 6:11am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hey thanks I'm just experimenting haha so I'll need a second blade. Acoustic carbon sounds like a inner carbon blade so should be pretty similar to the HL5? Maybe I'll just get that, Moristo SP and then slap on a D09c to complete the package haha.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Basquests
Silver Member Joined: 08/29/2016 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 520 |
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Yes, I'd be careful with the handle size, however. Nittaku have a handle size significantly smaller than all other manufacturers, which is why most of their blades come in a 'LG' handle version. LG handle is around the same size as a normal handle. The traditional handle is suited for women and children, and men with very small hands. My understanding is the Acoustic carbon [inner / outer and 'carbon']'s should all be at least vaguely close to HL5, although I've not really hit with the blade more than 1 or 2 minutes.
Edited by Basquests - 03/07/2021 at 6:49am |
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Skyline
Premier Member Joined: 07/01/2007 Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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Do you have a good backhand punch and block? Only switch to sp if these strokes are your trademarks.
Chiquita's, strawberries and chop blocks are more effective with inverted.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hmm I don't think I have a good BH punch, but I have a small stroke hard BH close table counter which is not that different from a punch imo. My block is quite decent, but my real trademark is my chiquita haha... But I see Ito Mima being highly effective with those strokes with her pips too... It's probably a stupid experiment and I'll be going back to inverted lol... I guess the real thing I don't like about inverted is having to BH loop heavy af underspin balls, I would love to just ignore the spin and counter through the underspin.
Edited by blahness - 03/07/2021 at 7:59am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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TT newbie
Gold Member Joined: 11/25/2011 Location: Far Far Away Status: Offline Points: 1391 |
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I would keep the HL5 since it is one of the best, if not the best, looping blade available.
I myself use a TB ALC with SP, but I use it in FH. SP need some blade flex and sometimes I find TB ALC too stiff, maybe the Innerforce or TB ZLF would suit better. That said, if you wanna try a BH with SP I suggest to try an easy SP to start. Tension SP like Impartial XB or Rakza PO might be too bouncy and fast. I changed to RITC 802 and since then I´m still playing with it. Mine is 2.1mm in 35° because I need speed in FH smashes, but if you want an allround BH game 1.9mm might be enough.
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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it depends what you want to do with SP. There are SP substyles some just hit and some spin some balls block. 1 for aggresive speed play use a SP with low spin like spectol. hard stiff blade like clipper ebenholz 2 spin type..look for longer rallies like miyu kihara..victas and moristo are the most used sp for pros. some use slighly flex blades like falck.
Edited by mykonos96 - 03/07/2021 at 11:54am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hmm I'm more inclined towards 2
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ejprinz
Member Joined: 01/01/2020 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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The Yinhe Uranus Pro medium sponge is about as hard as the Nittaku Moristo SP, the Uranus Pro soft sponge is softer (so more jumpy, less control for pushing). PrinceTT.com has it for approx. $10 + shipping.
Note that if you go with more spinny pips the behavior becomes closer to say a inverted Sriver, so why bother. The Rakza PO is faster than the Moristo SP and has horizontal pips vs. the Moristo SP vertical ones, so control becomes a problem for pushing (at least for me). So I would maybe start with the Moristo SP (or Uranus Pro if you want to save a few $$) on a blade which is good for the FH topspin. I have played the SP backhand on various blades and I think for a Mima Ito type style you optimize the blade for FH and choose the short pips rubber to go with the blade.
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Yinhe 980XX, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Nittaku Wallest 1.0mm sponge.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Thanks... first time I've heard of vertical vs horizontal pips haha... It looks like Moristo is probably the one I'll be going for. If I have Dignics 09c on a inner carbon type blade I'm happy with the FH in general.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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A player that is using horizontal pip in her BH is Miyu Kihara..I played with vertical hexerpips and horizontal...small diffrence. A rubber that can work for you is moristo AX spinny fast and makes flat balls
Edited by mykonos96 - 03/07/2021 at 6:11pm |
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ejprinz
Member Joined: 01/01/2020 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Also I would read the reviews by Patrick Hrdlicka:
and watch the detailed review of the Uranus Pro by Maxim Cerepnin (switch on subtitles): The Uranus Pro is horizontal but slower than the Nittaku Moristo SP which is vertical. Spinwise I really can't tell the difference, at least for the Uranus Pro medium sponge. Edited by ejprinz - 03/07/2021 at 11:45pm |
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Yinhe 980XX, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Nittaku Wallest 1.0mm sponge.
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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Have you played with uranus Pro?
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Everything was out of stock so I ended up getting a cheapo 729-563 on a Viscaria, will try it out tonight!
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Ok had a long hit with the short pips tonight. I'm actually really surprisingly happy with it.
The thing I'm not really used to is the thinness of the pips (I went for 1.5mm sponge), it felt like my index finger was always misplaced and felt weird. The grip will take some getting used to. I got the hang of just hitting the ball solidly, and it felt good to be able to just hit through almost anything. The biggest improvement is attacking the 3rd ball from my serves, it felt so natural and easy compared to inverted where I often had to be very careful with reading my opponent's receive and adjusting accordingly. It felt so good to attack heavy underspin pushes on the rise with good percentages lol, it is definitely something that has to be experienced Pushes felt really weird because if I pushed with the same open bat angle it'll just pop up like crazy. I did a couple of pushes that had some weird af spin but didn't manage to figure out how to reproduce them... Sidespin pushes (strawberry plus normal chopblock technique) were very effective too, but didn't have the weird af spin that inverted produces. The pushflick is useless because of the low dwell time, impossible to disguise anything imo. I could do the chiquita with even more ease now because I simply didn't really need to adjust all that much to incoming spin, it felt so good just blasting those away lol. It is probably one of my biggest point winners. The other thing that was really weird was the weight of the blade, I felt that my FH loop lost quite a bit of spin (could be because of the Viscaria vs Long 5, or the reduction in weight), but the real advantage was in the initiation speed, I was simply able to get the swings in faster which actually resulted in some ridiculous shotmaking that even I was surprised I was capable of. Overall I feel it's actually a better FH now thanks to the increased speed. The receive of long fast serves with the pips was a problem, it was quite hard to get good quality out of them (I've been pretty much hitting through them). I think I'll have to investigate some chopblocking or sideswipes to complement this too. I felt like serves with the 09c didn't lose any quality so I retained my biggest weapon. It was actually physically easier to serve with the reduced weight (less taxing on the muscles)
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Basquests
Silver Member Joined: 08/29/2016 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 520 |
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I was very interested to know if you'd get the same boost to your inverted rubber, from the lower weight / increased head heaviness on the inverted side - glad you got it. Since you have a lower swingweight, and higher swing speed, I'd wager you're perhaps converting this acceleration into more speed than spin compared to before [either due to a slight technical change, or due to the blade's natural arc being lower]; i can't really speak to it since I retained the same blade when changing over. Yes, the pushes / receives with pips become significantly better placed, but do become less spinny/threatening in terms of spin, hopefully this can be rediscovered once we learn more about the nuances about receiving with pips, although a decent well placed receive is still pretty good, it's just nice completely destroying someone off receives. I noticed if I chopped in a certain way, the ball would get heavy backspin [or seem to], but the bat angle is very extreme [i.e. risky], and probably an advanced skill...better to learn the meat and potatoes of what SP's are about, rather than focus on an infrequent issue / they aren't easily designed to do.
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vanjr
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Most people I know consider 563 a medium pip. Certainly longer than most SP.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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With pushing I could still get quite a lot of backspin (my partner consistently underestimated the amount of spin), but there was a technique which actually allowed me to push with topspin lol that I accidentally discovered, but I haven't really reproduced it. I think you have to kinda hit it with minimal dwell to achieve the spin reversal. But really there's no point pushing when it's so easy to just attack everything, I didn't push much during practice matches because the flips and chiquita was already so deadly. The real problem I had was defending against heavy topspin, it's just a pain compared to inverted because with inverted you can just easily guide block it to the table, with pips it is way too easy to just pop it off the table. I think rubbing it upwards actually killed the incoming spin which created some really sinking blocks. I'll have to watch more Ito matches to see how she does it so easily.... In matches the best defense is to attack first so the other person never gets to do heavy topspins
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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It's weird, I feel like I could still generate quite a fair bit of spin, the reports about it being flathit only are greatly exaggerated imo...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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Fukuhara played with 563
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Interesting! I never really watched many Fukuhara matches before, will give it a go. I'm more of an Ito fan lol.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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ThePongProfessor
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7-ply blade ayous/limba construction 6.2-6.5 mm for a good compromise between FH looping and BH blocking/driving/hitting, 802-40 or Waran II for an easy entry.
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RDinTN
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"real problem I had was defending against heavy topspin" That was always tricky.. but you just need to get on top of the ball and block down into the ball. You will struggle if yout try to block that type ball late, as the incoming spin will be the controlling factor in arc height and length.
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ZLC/ULC Custom, Nitt.H3 Pro /MX-S
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Shiro
Member Joined: 03/15/2017 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 90 |
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If I were to recommend any pips, the TSP Spectol Red is a very good rubber. I have been using it ever since I transitioned from inverted and enjoyed it ever since. However, the rubber is being discontinued so that's something that's unfortunate since Victas is taking over TSP and Victas is only make 3 Spectol Rubbers now.
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ejprinz
Member Joined: 01/01/2020 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Yes, I have 4 (Uranus Pro) of them on various blades, I got them from PrinceTT. I started with the medium sponge on a Yinhe Pro-5W (walnut top like Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive) and won the San Antonio U1300 with it . The YouTube video about the Uranus Pro by Maxim Cherepnin helped a lot (from TT Maximum).
I then switched to the soft sponge with a slower blade (Yinhe E3 or W6). This allows me to roll pretty well with the backhand and still have a good topspin on the forehand. The Uranus Pro medium sponge has a similar hardness compared to the Nittaku Moristo SP and the Rakza PO, the soft sponge is softer. I actually had started short pips with the Rakza PO but I found it to be too fast so I overshot a lot with pushing. The Uranus Pro is better controlled IMHO. I also tried the Uranus Pro on some faster blades (e.g. Yinhe T-7 Hinoki/ALC external) and it is really fun to play but these blades are too fast for me for tournaments right now (mainly the forehand inverted - Yinhe Moon, backhand SP would be OK). Edited by ejprinz - 03/08/2021 at 9:22pm |
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Yinhe 980XX, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Nittaku Wallest 1.0mm sponge.
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IanMcg
Gold Member Joined: 05/27/2011 Location: Somehere Status: Offline Points: 1151 |
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Maybe at one point but for the most part she played Armstrong Attack 8m with the purple sponge. Miao Miao played 563
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hmm I think I'll try this method too haha... I always thought blocking topspin with pips was the easiest thing there is - turns out that it's not! Now I wonder how did He Zhi Wen just block everything back so easily like a boss haha. It's way easier to control the return with inverted....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yeah it's not just topspin strokes but heavy sidetopspin serves too... very very difficult to control with the pips. With inverted those were basically free points, just chiquita or flip and it's mostly game over.... I played someone who had experience against pips and he targeted this weakness over and over again that i almost wanna give up on this experiment lol.... I switched back to inverted and destroyed him easily...
Edited by blahness - 03/09/2021 at 8:53am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I now understand why players like Sun Yingsha almost exclusively serve topspin long to Ito's BH.... The pips are simply better against underspin than topspin.
Edited by blahness - 03/09/2021 at 10:27am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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