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1952 Invention of Sponge |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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I agree... The fact that elite players today have faster, better footwork than ever means that even if they are all forced to use hardbat, they will still try to hit their 3rd as hard as they do with inverted. They can because they can be in proper position faster than all of the hardbatters in the "classic" era to unleash their devastating fh attacks. The modern hardbat game at elite level will still be dominated by supremely powerful attackers like today. |
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opinari
Super Member Joined: 05/23/2006 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 459 |
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Points taken, although I would note that when I said "less spin" on the 40mm ball, I meant it in the colloquial sense - spin is easier to deal with (which is a combination of surface speed and mass). All in all, I guess it is a bit of a "what-if" scenario - my sense is that defense will be no more a viable strategy than it is now. Players today are too well-conditioned and their strokes hit a lot harder than before. I'm amazed at the speed of those hardbat drives in the videos I posted - way faster than I expected. At the elite level, they'll be even faster. I can't see any type of defense strategy being any more successful with hardbat, especially since they can't even rely on spin reversal in the same way.
Edited by opinari - 12/12/2011 at 2:12pm |
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Blade: BTY Zhang Jike ALC-CS
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Jay, please give us a good example of such players then - a video, I mean. Thanks! |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Houshang Bazorgzadeh. Hard bat player from the 60s and 70s in the US, originally from Iran, actually in the top 20 in the world at a point before he came to the US. USATT Hall of Fame member. Not a defender, that's for sure! I played him a bunch of times, never came close to winning, he won a lot of points on third ball attack. This was in early 70s. A bit of a showman and a true gentleman. I just went back upthread and watched the video of very young Dennis Neale that someone posted. Houshang used to hit his forehand much the same way, elbow out, kind of a short quick stroke, it looks akward by today's standards. Houshang was a short guy and he moved really quickly, served short -- always. But quite similar in many ways, probably they were both at about the same level in the peak of their careers. The ball came as you would expect, low, flat. Hardbat weird and you kind of had to lift the ball to get it over the net, even though it was coming fast. Houshang would keep that coming at you until you missed, and there was no easy way get your own effective attack off first. The only other times I have seen balls like that since then are when I have played some old guys in my wife's hometown China who played with pips and sponge so thin it might have been harbat. Two of them, late 60s, penholders, probably hadn't changed rubber since that film of Denis Neale was made, and they were still good. 2250-2300ish I would estimate, and when they were younger they had to have been a lot better than that. I also saw a 15 year old girl who used more or less hardbat penholder in China, but didn't get a chance to play her. Same thing. Also thanks to RR for posting the video of Joo vs Chen. Beautiful and I had not seen it before.
Edited by Baal - 12/13/2011 at 1:07am |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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1959 HISTORY OF THE SPORT:
WE ESCAPED DISASTER BY A CLOSE SHAVE. http://www.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI60TurbulentFifties.pdf http://www.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI63SpongePart2.pdf Year 1959 was a fatal moment in the history of the sport. ITTF president Aivor Montagu had then been insisting on revising the Racket Rule so that the game was only played with the pimpled rubbers without any sponge (hardbat). Owning China efforts, ITTF did get to a good-for-all compromise rule that a variety of rubbers, sponged sandwich rubbers along with hard pimples were then legitimated and got validity for all events. 1959 is when we closely escaped the overall hardbat play, insipid-boring-dumb play. NOWDAYS, we have got into a new crisis of the sport. The game becoming near uncontrolable because the rubber got too speedy and sponge too bouncy. It is time to revise game rule as to the rubber thickness. We certainly need a thinner rubber 3.5 mm instead 4.0 mm. to reduce the massive errors and lapsuses during a match. Edited by igorponger - 12/04/2016 at 6:33pm |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Ivor Montagu, first President of the ITTF, was no great fan of pimpled rubber. A fair table tennis player himself, he was an early exponent of using other surfaces than pimpled rubber without sponge. In fact, prior to 1959, the rule (Rule 4) regarding racket surfaces was constructed so that any surface, so long as it was not white or reflecting like a mirror, was permitted.
And Hiroji Satoh was not the first player to use a sponge covered racket effectively. In 1951, a player, last name Fritsch, won a number of tournaments in Europe using a racket with a sponge covering both sides. But in general, sponge rubber at that time was viewed as uncontrollable and not particularly effective. Ferenc Sido won the Men's World Singles Championship in 1953 using a hardbat, and Dick Miles reached the semifinals of the 1959 World Men's Singles at age 34 in 1959 also using hard rubber. But after Zhuang Zedong's World Championships in 1961, 1963 and 1965 and the introduction of the slow, high throw but very spinny loop drive that stymied both hard rubber attackers and defenders alike, hard rubber was dead as an effective covering for international play. And now, in 2016, look what we have. A new crisis? Sheer uncontrollability? A marked improvement in the aesthetics of the sport? Don't blame me. I wasn't playing competitive pong in 1959, and I'm too old and beat up to play competitive pong in 2016. Bah humbug!
Edited by berndt_mann - 12/04/2016 at 9:09pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Interesting read. Isn't it ironic that the countries that were against the standardization happened to be the ones who later benefited from it? Japan, Korea, Sweden, Yugoslavia...were so short-sighted.
It's amazing to learn that China's proposal led to the dawn of the golden era. 2024/1/4 update: Added links to Internet Archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120823111022/http://www.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI60TurbulentFifties.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20120823110829/http://www.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI63SpongePart2.pdf Edited by zeio - 01/03/2024 at 11:33am |
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neutronbomb
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2011 Location: NE Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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I think it's great that we play a game with such a heavy amount of spin involved that one cannot help but pick up the basics of orbital mechanics. Everyone in table tennis has seen the magnus effect and lateral deviation, even if they aren't aware of the concepts or terminology. Many of the shots that seems to defy the laws of physics would simply not be possible without the heavy spin generated from modern equipment.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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As a kid, I learned those things playing with a Whiffle ball.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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neutronbomb
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2011 Location: NE Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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I learned about them from golf. The difference between table tennis and both wiffle ball and golf is the amount of spin, the need to be able to read that incoming spin, reverse it or continue it, etc... the list could go on.
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Spin IMO was at its heaviest during the speed glue 38 mm. ball era when orbital mechanics, the magnus effect and lateral deviation were at their fullest bloom. Hell, I learned about the magnus effect back in 1940 sometime or other when my father wrote an article for Science Digest magazine explaining that due to the magnus effect a baseball really can curve. So can a serve or even a topspin drive when executed with a hardbat by an international class player (Jim Butler, Dan Seemiller), a national class player (Ashu Jain), or a high elite class player (Ty
Hoff, Alex Perez, Freddie Gabriel, Loc Ngo).We're talking orbital mechanics, magnus effect and lateral deviation here, but not ridiculous orbital mechanics, magnus effect and lateral deviation that can be brought off by any halfway capable mope with inverted rubber liberally sautéed with Lydia Pinkham's Vegetable Compound or something like that. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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Historic deep retrospection into 1950s. Japanese would argue for a thick sponge up to 15 mm. :8=O:
http://www.old.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI60TurbulentFifties.pdf http://www.old.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI63SpongePart2.pdf The whole truth of how sponged rubber had entered into the sport. So exciting fact to learn out. |
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