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1952 Invention of Sponge

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/12/2011 at 12:19am
Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Is modern hardhat played like that because these players have grown up with sponge and modern third balk mentality?


Or they're just playing in a way that helps them win?

Exactly. I think a lot of the nostalgia for the classic hardbat game is focused too much on the "hardbat" aspect and ignores the "classic" aspect. 

In other words, modern table tennis favors aggressive, athletic play regardless what you put on your blade. Even if sponge rubber had never been approved, these players are using strokes more effective than what you saw six decades ago - strokes that favor a shorter rally.

That's not to say that playing hardbat doesn't have its own benefits, but to suggest that all of the ills of the modern game is due to sponge rubber is a mistake.


I agree... The fact that elite players today have faster, better footwork than ever means that even if they are all forced to use hardbat, they will still try to hit their 3rd as hard as they do with inverted.  They can because they can be in proper position faster than all of the hardbatters in the "classic" era to unleash their devastating fh attacks.  The modern hardbat game at elite level will still be dominated by supremely powerful attackers like today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opinari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/12/2011 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:


In other words, there might be more defenders if hardbat was mandatory, but I still think the offensive, short rally game would dominate and with such ills as others describe (e.g., "short rallies", "no defensive players", "no fun to watch", etc.)


But I think you are missing my main point.  It isn't that there would necessarily be more defenders, it would be that defense would be a more effective strategy.  Rallies would shift back and forth between offense and defense more frequently.  As it is now, once the point goes offensive, it is usually over very quickly.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

As you note, spin is a double-edged sword - it's necessary for modern defense. Modern defenders (e.g., Joo Se Hyuk, Hou Yingchao, etc.) rely on spin reversal.


The vast majority of table tennis shots use spin.  The more spin the offensive player puts into the ball, the more the long pips chopper sends back.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

If you think back to the change to the 40mm ball, it actually seemed to hurt defenders. Although the ball moved slower (as with hardbat), the spin also decreased (as with hardbat). As such, I'm not sure the hardbat picture is as rosy for defenders as many seem to suggest.


The ball doesn't travel that much slower, and while it spins less, that's measured in RPM, not surface speed.  Furthermore, the 40mm ball curves more in the air due to spin.  APW46 regularly insists that the 40mm ball "sits up" more after bouncing making it easier to attack - thus hurting defenders.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

I also don't mean to claim that classic strokes are "ineffective", but my argument was that modern strokes are more effective. I find it very difficult to argue that strokes from six decades ago are better.


In some situations and if you aren't hitting with a sandwich racket, those classic strokes are better.  In other situations, even if playing with hardbat, I think some modern strokes are more effective.  Which is more effective depends on the situation.  I regularly work on both adapting modern strokes to hardbat and also employing the classic strokes because I think both have their places in a modern hardbat game.  There are some people who claim that the modern strokes would not ultimately be the most effective with elite players and that the classic strokes were near optimal for hardbat play.  I disagree with that.  But nobody really knows. 

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

This discussion doesn't have to be an exercise in "what-ifs" though. I'm honestly curious - do you have videos of a defensive / long rally hardbat player making it to a finals in a large open event? The video you posted is Seemiller against a friend. I'd be more interested in seeing top, young hardbat players consistently playing longer rallies or just defensively (i.e., running down these drives).


That video is of Seemiller playing Chance Friend.  "Friend" is his last name.  Like I said previously, there are ZERO elite hardbat players.  Hardbat represents too much of a disadvantage against sponge for anyone to risk spending ten or more years of their life to try to perfect it.  Success at the highest levels is tough enough and low enough in reward without adding the extra burden of having to play hardbat against inverted.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

(Please note that I did not cherry my pick videos - I simply searched on youtube for top hardbat players in the US and posted what I found. After watching more videos, my initial impression is that my videos are pretty representative of the top hardbat game.)


They are representative.  But I've failed to explain myself well.  These are top level or near top level hardbat matches.  But these players are not elite.  Not even close. They have typically put only a small fraction of their training time into playing hardbat. NONE of them have trained exclusively with hardbat for 20-30 hours a week for seven to ten years.  In other words, these players do not represent the best that could be done with hardbat.  The don't represent harbat pushed to the limits. For the most part, these are players adapting their sponge games to hardbat.  These aren't "ground up" hardbat players.


Points taken, although I would note that when I said "less spin" on the 40mm ball, I meant it in the colloquial sense - spin is easier to deal with (which is a combination of surface speed and mass).

All in all, I guess it is a bit of a "what-if" scenario - my sense is that defense will be no more a viable strategy than it is now. Players today are too well-conditioned and their strokes hit a lot harder than before. 

I'm amazed at the speed of those hardbat drives in the videos I posted - way faster than I expected. At the elite level, they'll be even faster. I can't see any type of defense strategy being any more successful with hardbat, especially since they can't even rely on spin reversal in the same way.


Edited by opinari - 12/12/2011 at 2:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/12/2011 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:


They are representative.  But I've failed to explain myself well.  These are top level or near top level hardbat matches.  But these players are not elite.  Not even close. They have typically put only a small fraction of their training time into playing hardbat. NONE of them have trained exclusively with hardbat for 20-30 hours a week for seven to ten years.  In other words, these players do not represent the best that could be done with hardbat.  The don't represent harbat pushed to the limits. For the most part, these are players adapting their sponge games to hardbat.  These aren't "ground up" hardbat players.


Jay, please give us a good example of such players then - a video, I mean. Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2011 at 12:42am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Is modern hardhat played like that because these players have grown up with sponge and modern third balk mentality?
 
Houshang Bazorgzadeh.  Hard bat player from the 60s and 70s in the US, originally from Iran, actually in the top 20 in the world at a point before he came to the US.  USATT Hall of Fame member.  Not a defender, that's for sure!  I played him a bunch of times, never came close to winning, he won a lot of points on third ball attack.  This was in early 70s.  A bit of a showman and a true gentleman.  I just went back upthread and watched the video of very young Dennis Neale that someone posted.  Houshang used to hit his forehand much the same way, elbow out, kind of a short quick stroke, it looks akward by today's standards.   Houshang was a short guy and he moved really quickly, served short -- always.  But quite similar in many ways, probably they were both at about the same level in the peak of their careers.  The ball came as you would expect, low, flat.  Hardbat weird and you kind of had to lift the ball to get it over the net, even though it was coming fast.  Houshang would keep that coming at you until you missed, and there was no easy way get your own effective attack off first.   The only other times I have seen balls like that since then are when I have played some old guys in my wife's hometown China who played with pips and sponge so thin it might have been harbat.  Two of them, late 60s, penholders, probably hadn't changed rubber since that film of Denis Neale was made, and they were still good. 2250-2300ish I would estimate, and when they were younger they had to have been a lot better than that.  I also saw a 15 year old girl who used more or less hardbat penholder in China, but didn't get a chance to play her.  Same thing.  Also thanks to RR for posting the video of Joo vs Chen.  Beautiful and I had not seen it before.   


Edited by Baal - 12/13/2011 at 1:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2016 at 3:49pm
1959 HISTORY OF THE SPORT:
WE ESCAPED DISASTER BY A CLOSE SHAVE.


http://www.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI60TurbulentFifties.pdf
http://www.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI63SpongePart2.pdf

Year 1959 was a fatal moment in the history of the sport. ITTF president Aivor Montagu had then been insisting on revising the Racket Rule so that the game was only played with the pimpled rubbers without any sponge (hardbat).

Owning China efforts, ITTF did get to a good-for-all compromise rule that a variety of rubbers, sponged sandwich rubbers along with hard pimples were then legitimated and got validity for all events.

   1959 is when we closely escaped the overall hardbat play, insipid-boring-dumb play.    

NOWDAYS, we have got into a new crisis of the sport.   The game becoming near uncontrolable because the rubber got too speedy and sponge too bouncy.   It is time to revise game rule as to the rubber thickness.
We certainly need a thinner rubber 3.5 mm instead 4.0 mm. to reduce the massive errors and lapsuses during a match.


Edited by igorponger - 12/04/2016 at 6:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2016 at 9:07pm
Ivor Montagu, first President of the ITTF, was no great fan of pimpled rubber.  A fair table tennis player himself, he was an early exponent of using other surfaces than pimpled rubber without sponge.  In fact, prior to 1959, the rule (Rule 4) regarding racket surfaces was constructed so that any surface, so long as it was not white or reflecting like a mirror, was permitted.

And Hiroji Satoh was not the first player to use a sponge covered racket effectively.  In 1951, a player, last name Fritsch, won a number of tournaments in Europe using a racket with a sponge covering both sides.

But in general, sponge rubber at that time was viewed as uncontrollable and not particularly effective.  Ferenc Sido won the Men's World Singles Championship in 1953 using a hardbat, and Dick Miles reached the semifinals of the 1959 World Men's Singles at age 34 in 1959 also using hard rubber.

But after Zhuang Zedong's World Championships in 1961, 1963 and 1965 and the introduction of the slow, high throw but very spinny loop drive that stymied both hard rubber attackers and defenders alike, hard rubber was dead as an effective covering for international play.

And now, in 2016, look what we have.  A new crisis?  Sheer uncontrollability?  A marked improvement in the aesthetics of the sport?  

Don't blame me.  I wasn't playing competitive pong in 1959, and I'm too old and beat up to play competitive pong in 2016.  Bah humbug!Smile


Edited by berndt_mann - 12/04/2016 at 9:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2016 at 10:02pm
Interesting read. Isn't it ironic that the countries that were against the standardization happened to be the ones who later benefited from it? Japan, Korea, Sweden, Yugoslavia...were so short-sighted.

It's amazing to learn that China's proposal led to the dawn of the golden era.

2024/1/4 update:
Added links to Internet Archive
https://web.archive.org/web/20120823111022/http://www.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI60TurbulentFifties.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20120823110829/http://www.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI63SpongePart2.pdf

Edited by zeio - 01/03/2024 at 11:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neutronbomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2016 at 7:48am
I think it's great that we play a game with such a heavy amount of spin involved that one cannot help but pick up the basics of orbital mechanics. Everyone in table tennis has seen the magnus effect and lateral deviation, even if they aren't aware of the concepts or terminology. Many of the shots that seems to defy the laws of physics would simply not be possible without the heavy spin generated from modern equipment. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2016 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by neutronbomb neutronbomb wrote:

I think it's great that we play a game with such a heavy amount of spin involved that one cannot help but pick up the basics of orbital mechanics. Everyone in table tennis has seen the magnus effect and lateral deviation, even if they aren't aware of the concepts or terminology. Many of the shots that seems to defy the laws of physics would simply not be possible without the heavy spin generated from modern equipment. 

As a kid, I learned those things playing with a Whiffle ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neutronbomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2016 at 1:58pm
I learned about them from golf. The difference between table tennis and both wiffle ball and golf is the amount of spin, the need to be able to read that incoming spin, reverse it or continue it, etc... the list could go on. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2016 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by neutronbomb neutronbomb wrote:

I think it's great that we play a game with such a heavy amount of spin involved that one cannot help but pick up the basics of orbital mechanics. Everyone in table tennis has seen the magnus effect and lateral deviation, even if they aren't aware of the concepts or terminology. Many of the shots that seems to defy the laws of physics would simply not be possible without the heavy spin generated from modern equipment. 

As a kid, I learned those things playing with a Whiffle ball.

Spin IMO was at its heaviest during the speed glue 38 mm. ball era when orbital mechanics, the magnus effect and lateral deviation were at their fullest bloom.  Hell, I learned about the magnus effect back in 1940 sometime or other when my father wrote an article for Science Digest magazine explaining that due to the magnus effect a baseball really can curve.

So can a serve or even a topspin drive when executed with a hardbat by an international class player (Jim Butler, Dan Seemiller), a national class player (Ashu Jain), or a high elite class player (Ty Hoff, Alex Perez, Freddie Gabriel, Loc Ngo).We're talking orbital mechanics, magnus effect and lateral deviation here, but not ridiculous orbital mechanics, magnus effect and lateral deviation that can be brought off by any halfway capable mope with inverted rubber liberally sautéed with Lydia Pinkham's Vegetable Compound or something like that.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2016 at 5:12pm
Historic deep retrospection into 1950s. Japanese would argue for a thick sponge up to 15 mm. :8=O:

http://www.old.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI60TurbulentFifties.pdf

http://www.old.ittf.com/museum/TTIscans/TTI63SpongePart2.pdf

The whole truth of how sponged rubber had entered into the sport. So exciting fact to learn out.
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