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Sidespon-topspin against backspin? |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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I am not making up anything. I said this girl is doing it wrong but you said she should keep doing "exactly the same thing" because you know some other kids who can not loop like her. Am I correct or not? You further added that many other girls struggle to loop properly, but what does it have to do with what I stated (that all top girls already know how to loop" so your point is irrelevant)? I clearly stated in my posts that kids who compete at the national level already have many arsenals at their disposal (including loops), and they should do exactly what works in a game, not insisting on offering soft cream puff opening loops against underspin to opponents who can smash them easily. You don't keep practicing what does not work in an actual match. You do so in practice and try to refine it until a particular skill is ready, because game time is when you incorporate all your skills at once to defeat your opponent, NOT THE TIME TO PRACTICE. You are the one who's offering a terrible advice here. If you acknowledged it that's fine, but you keep doubling down on your mistaken belief that "your" way (keep looping weakly against underspin in actual matches to be destroyed) is also the right way to learn looping, which is not. Repeatedly looping slowly against heavy push at the cadet level is plainly dumb, because it is useless. It is much better to push it back strategically and wait for a better ball to attack. It's all about reading the game. Edited by roundrobin - 06/14/2013 at 2:53pm |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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Rahul_TT
Super Member Joined: 11/06/2012 Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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Have to say - I completely agree with roundrobin on this topic. Learning to loop consistently with spin is much easier to learn. Also, a loaded slow loop is PURELY TACTICAL play at high level for speed changeup. Not a single player plays like this every rally. In fact, I learnt to loop slowly and loaded with spin and now struggling to adjust to a loop-drive game. I see a lot of teenagers who can drive much better against underspin and I strongly feel that its something that needs super quick feet that can be developed only in childhood.
A loaded, slow topspin is an overrated concept. It's good at lower levels but will usually get you murdered if you use it too often at high levels. Ask ANY coach - modern game is won on speed. NOT SPIN. And this is consistent knowledge across any coach.
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Thanks Rahul... I always try to share my knowledge here in a helpful way, but I know sometimes I came out more condescending than I intended... It's much harder to do it correctly on an internet forum than face to face... |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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LoopsALot
Member Joined: 02/19/2012 Status: Offline Points: 80 |
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I have exactly same problem. I slow loop underspin which works for opponents at my level but higher level players just smash the ball. What to do now? Push? Or practice looping harder? I guess either one is better. I should remove the slow loop from my arsenal. But what f you're already late getting to the ball? Loop, back up and lob?
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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When you are forced out of position (e.g. late to the ball) your number one priority is to get back in position after the shot, so you should execute the smallest, easiest shot you can perform to ensure proper recovery for the next shot. So against deep and low pushes that got you out of position, your choice will be either a push or a quick flick. At the highest level in men's table tennis, however, they will usually go for a point-winning shot in this case because they have the speed and power to do so. This is why I advise against copying exactly what Ma Long or ZJK does for most forum members. The key, again, is to understand what YOU should do with the skills you have. |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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Rahul_TT
Super Member Joined: 11/06/2012 Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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I like to slow loop under heavy spin - i dont have the power to loop drive heavy underspin. But I make sure my slow loop is low and as deep as possible. Slow loop doesn't necessarily mean a high ball that can be smashed.
If you are late for a long push, you have already lost the point. Whatever you do, its mostly a lost cause. This is like the question - how should I return a smash. Well you should be aiming to avoid the smash in the first place. So the only solution is to anticipate and work on your footwork. A push is generally a stroke you should never be late to because the previous shot you made would also be a push (can not be a topspin) and that means that there is no reason for you to be out of position in a push rally.
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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You shouldn't abandon the slow loop entirely. Every shot has its place. It's all about knowing when to use it. Sometimes you can't loop drive - for instance if you're late, the ball is too low or you're not in the right position. These are cases where you might consider the slow loop to stay in the point. Location and depth are critical when slow looping and those all depend on where you opponent is standing. There's a guy in my club that eats slow loops to his FH for breakfast unless they are right near the end line deep. I try my best to avoid that, but if it happens I know to back up. I can however, slow loop to the wide BH or middle - though not the elbow.
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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I would ask just how tall is this girl? The table is 30 inches high. The ball will bounce up about another 6 inches. If the girl is tall enough she may be able to loop these balls back because her vertical paddle speed can be high but as one goes past a certain point your paddle speed drops. On top of that, if one hits a side top spin then usually the ball must be hit where the arm is swinging up and out. I just can't image a small girl doing this unless she lets the ball drop so she impacts the ball when her paddle is swinging up and out. When I hit a side top spin, what I call a hook loop, I am usually late and hitting the lower than I usually would. Because the ball is lower my arm is swinging out and away from my body before it starts to swing up. I can do this because I am tall. I can't imagine this being a practical shot for a much smaller 11 year old girl. Also, it is hard enough to just loop the back spins back let alone the extra paddle speed it would require hook loop the ball back. I have done this a few times because I am late but I much prefer to hit the ball at the height where my paddle is moving vertically the fastest to match the back spin. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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This is not quite right. The part you are forgetting is that sidespin loops against backspin also avoid the axis where the spin is heaviest and therefore do not require as much lift.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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I stand corrected but the maximum spin is not at the axis, it is at the equator. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Hi 33333hhhhh, These sorts of matches are just part of the learning curve for any Jnr (well any player)
1. Video the game and make notes and see what worked and what didn't, and do more of what worked next time. 2. practice against these tactics by getting the coach to do backspin your girl loops and then coach counters and work on power, placement, tactics and recovery to counter their counters etc 3.work on different serve tactics to allow better third ball attacks and reduce getting stuck in pushing game 4. learn pushing game as part of training 5.Get mytt members to argue over nothing 6. Watch other girls play your opponent
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5039 |
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Looked back through the thread again.... and GOTTA give +1 to that. It seems everyone everywhere is so over training the FH topspin at the expense of everything else, like serve, serve receive, middle game, pushing, blocking, tactics. Just about everywhere you see the greatest majority of time spent drilling different FH shots and combos, almost like the 80% RR mentioned. This is so prevalent in Korea as well. It is bang bang Bang FH FH with some combos or multiball involving BH. Rarely any time on serves, pushes, or avoiding attacks. The FH shots are the most dominant shot in the game and rightfully deserve a lot of attention, but likely other aspects of the game deserve more attention. I can see a lot of USATT 1200-1300 lower level div 4 or div 5 city players who can bang the ball back and forth close to table low spin FH to FH forever or rip the loop to loop FH at distance, and are totally clueless on how to receive a serve or read spin in general it will surprise you. That is just an indicator of the average club level training. of course the elite level athletes identified early in their lives... that is a whole different situation and the thread is addressing that. |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5039 |
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Just the inability to be able to push off the bounce and low to a difficult spot sets one up to hung out to dry, especially in doubles. I cannot tell you how many average club level players in doubles recive serve in a manner (like a highish push that lands 1/2 deep right into the FH power zone) that invites a strong and reliable attack form the lowest level of player they have a difficult time missing. Ditto for when you serve and get a long push back, which the same player is indecisive and bumps it back again high and 1/2 deep that gets crushed for a winner over 90%.
Lack of developing other areas of the game have these kind of consequences and failing to address such things is trouble in growing level. Of course elite athletes have no problem of this obvious magnitude, but you get my point. I think that point is very strongly and clearly expressed by RR and others... and is worthy of re-examination. |
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