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Sidespon-topspin against backspin?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2013 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by DDreamer DDreamer wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

The main problem with your thinking is you are assuming that other girls at her level don't know how to loop "properly" like her, hence they can't play the same way this girl is playing.  This is complete nonsense.  The other girls above her level surely can play like her if they want to, but they don't because it's a dumb thing to do.  

I do not assume this. How do you assume I assume this? You are just making this up. Please give a quote which shows I assume this. What I did say is that many (not all) female players struggle to learn how to loop properly as they get older if they have learnt the 'slap loop' approach when they are younger. I have come across this often enough, especially with sub-elite juniors but even 2 elite level women I know of also had difficulty. Of course there are players who are able to both slap loop and the loop properly. I never suggested otherwise. Also, it may be a dumb thing to do short term but long term it is not. It depends on where your focus as a coach lies. Some coach to win under 13s, I tend to coach looking ahead to a mature style. Both approaches have their pros and cons. 

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:


You further assume if the other girls at or above her level perform a loop, they will loop with a wristy, half-ass motion.  How do you know that? 
 
Again please give me a quote where I assumed this. You are making this up. How do I know how Hungarian under 13 girls loop? I did say that many girls these days are taught to do half-flat-half-topspin 'drives' which rely a lot on wrist. This is not an assumption, it is a fact. This approach is extremely common here, especially among the chinese coaches. Whilst this approach no doubt has its positives (especially with very young girls who lack the strength to put spin on their loops) it can, as I have already detailed, have its long term negatives. Of course I am not saying that everyone will experience such difficulties but I have found a good number do. In the case of the girl in question who can already put spin on her loop I suggested she continue on the path she is on. Once she learns to get depth on her loops they will no longer be easy to put away. Also, looping this way does not preclude her from swinging fast. I cannot see how this is bad advice unless you are only concerned with the very short term.


Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Lastly, you assume this girl's style will give her an advantage once she grows up because you think she will be able to loop better than her peers.  Again, this is also based on your belief that other girls can't loop when they grow up.  This is yet another completely baseless assumption... 


Again I did not assume this and you are making it up. Please show a quote where I said this.
 How can I possibly know that she will be able to loop better than her peers? I have said that it sounds like she is already learning how to loop properly and she should continue on the same path. Clearly some girls learn to loop very well. What I did say is that quite a number of girls (clearly not all) struggle to learn how to learn how to loop properly and that this is due to them being unable to change from the flatish slap technique they learnt for years when they were younger. This is not a belief or an assumption but a fact.

It is EXTREMELY tedious having to reply to 'assumptions' falsely attributed to me. I have offered an opinion on what I think the girl in question should do and have tried to outline why she should do so. You obviously have a different approach and such an approach of course has its merits. In such discussions it is best to try to be disciplined and stick to what is being said rather than falsely attributing weak and simplistic arguments to others. This will be my last post on this topic.


I am not making up anything.  Wink

I said this girl is doing it wrong but you said she should keep doing "exactly the same thing" because you know some other kids who can not loop like her.  Am I correct or not?  You further added that many other girls struggle to loop properly, but what does it have to do with what I stated (that all top girls already know how to loop" so your point is irrelevant)?  I clearly stated in my posts that kids who compete at the national level already have many arsenals at their disposal (including loops), and they should do exactly what works in a game, not insisting on offering soft cream puff opening loops against underspin to opponents who can smash them easily.  You don't keep practicing what does not work in an actual match.  You do so in practice and try to refine it until a particular skill is ready, because game time is when you incorporate all your skills at once to defeat your opponent, NOT THE TIME TO PRACTICE.  You are the one who's offering a terrible advice here.  If you acknowledged it that's fine, but you keep doubling down on your mistaken belief that "your" way (keep looping weakly against underspin in actual matches to be destroyed) is also the right way to learn looping, which is not.  Repeatedly looping slowly against heavy push at the cadet level is plainly dumb, because it is useless.  It is much better to push it back strategically and wait for a better ball to attack.  It's all about reading the game. 





Edited by roundrobin - 06/14/2013 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rahul_TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2013 at 3:07pm
Have to say - I completely agree with roundrobin on this topic. Learning to loop consistently with spin is much easier to learn. Also, a loaded slow loop is PURELY TACTICAL play at high level for speed changeup. Not a single player plays like this every rally. In fact, I learnt to loop slowly and loaded with spin and now struggling to adjust to a loop-drive game. I see a lot of teenagers who can drive much better against underspin and I strongly feel that its something that needs super quick feet that can be developed only in childhood.

A loaded, slow topspin is an overrated concept. It's good at lower levels but will usually get you murdered if you use it too often at high levels.  Ask ANY coach - modern game is won on speed. NOT SPIN. And this is consistent knowledge across any coach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2013 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by Rahul_TT Rahul_TT wrote:

Have to say - I completely agree with roundrobin on this topic. Learning to loop consistently with spin is much easier to learn. Also, a loaded slow loop is PURELY TACTICAL play at high level for speed changeup. Not a single player plays like this every rally. In fact, I learnt to loop slowly and loaded with spin and now struggling to adjust to a loop-drive game. I see a lot of teenagers who can drive much better against underspin and I strongly feel that its something that needs super quick feet that can be developed only in childhood.

A loaded, slow topspin is an overrated concept. It's good at lower levels but will usually get you murdered if you use it too often at high levels.  Ask ANY coach - modern game is won on speed. NOT SPIN. And this is consistent knowledge across any coach.


Thanks Rahul... I always try to share my knowledge here in a helpful way, but I know sometimes I came out more condescending than I intended... It's much harder to do it correctly on an internet forum than face to face...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LoopsALot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2013 at 4:37pm
I have exactly same problem. I slow loop underspin which works for opponents at my level but higher level players just smash the ball. What to do now? Push? Or practice looping harder? I guess either one is better. I should remove the slow loop from my arsenal. But what f you're already late getting to the ball? Loop, back up and lob?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2013 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by LoopsALot LoopsALot wrote:

I have exactly same problem. I slow loop underspin which works for opponents at my level but higher level players just smash the ball. What to do now? Push? Or practice looping harder? I guess either one is better. I should remove the slow loop from my arsenal. But what f you're already late getting to the ball? Loop, back up and lob?


When you are forced out of position (e.g. late to the ball) your number one priority is to get back in position after the shot, so you should execute the smallest, easiest shot you can perform to ensure proper recovery for the next shot.  So against deep and low pushes that got you out of position, your choice will be either a push or a quick flick.  At the highest level in men's table tennis, however, they will usually go for a point-winning shot in this case because they have the speed and power to do so.  This is why I advise against copying exactly what Ma Long or ZJK does for most forum members.  The key, again, is to understand what YOU should do with the skills you have.  Smile




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rahul_TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2013 at 11:15am
I like to slow loop under heavy spin - i dont have the power to loop drive heavy underspin. But I make sure my slow loop is low and as deep as possible. Slow loop doesn't necessarily mean a high ball that can be smashed. 

If you are late for a long push, you have already lost the point. Whatever you do, its mostly a lost cause. This is like the question  - how should I return a smash. Well you should be aiming to avoid the smash in the first place. So the only solution is to anticipate and work on your footwork. A push is generally a stroke you should never be late to because the previous shot you made would also be a push (can not be a topspin) and that means that there is no reason for you to be out of position in a push rally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2013 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by LoopsALot LoopsALot wrote:

I have exactly same problem. I slow loop underspin which works for opponents at my level but higher level players just smash the ball. What to do now? Push? Or practice looping harder? I guess either one is better. I should remove the slow loop from my arsenal. But what f you're already late getting to the ball? Loop, back up and lob?

You shouldn't abandon the slow loop entirely.  Every shot has its place.  It's all about knowing when to use it.  Sometimes you can't loop drive - for instance if you're late, the ball is too low or you're not in the right position.  These are cases where you might consider the slow loop to stay in the point.  Location and depth are critical when slow looping and those all depend on where you opponent is standing.  

There's a guy in my club that eats slow loops to his FH for breakfast unless they are right near the end line deep.  I try my best to avoid that, but if it happens I know to back up.  I can however, slow loop to the wide BH or middle - though not the elbow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2013 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by 33333hhhhh 33333hhhhh wrote:

She is able to do sidespin-topspin easily in rally, but i wondering if there is possible to do the same thing against backspin consistently.
I would ask just how tall is this girl?  The table is 30 inches high.  The ball will bounce up about another 6 inches. If the girl is tall enough she may be able to loop these balls back because her vertical paddle speed can be high but as one goes past a certain point your paddle speed drops.  On top of that, if one hits a side top spin then usually the ball must be hit where the arm is swinging up and out.  I just can't image a small girl doing this unless she lets the ball drop so she impacts the ball when her paddle is swinging up and out.

When I hit a side top spin, what I call a hook loop, I am usually late and hitting the lower than I usually would.   Because the ball is lower my arm is swinging out and away from my body before it starts to swing up.  I can do this because I am tall.   I can't imagine this being a practical shot for a much smaller 11 year old girl.  Also,  it is hard enough to just loop the back spins back let alone the extra paddle speed it would require hook loop the ball back.   I have done this a few times because I am late but I much prefer to hit the ball at the height where my paddle is moving vertically the fastest to match the back spin. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2013 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by 33333hhhhh 33333hhhhh wrote:

She is able to do sidespin-topspin easily in rally, but i wondering if there is possible to do the same thing against backspin consistently.
I would ask just how tall is this girl?  The table is 30 inches high.  The ball will bounce up about another 6 inches. If the girl is tall enough she may be able to loop these balls back because her vertical paddle speed can be high but as one goes past a certain point your paddle speed drops.  On top of that, if one hits a side top spin then usually the ball must be hit where the arm is swinging up and out.  I just can't image a small girl doing this unless she lets the ball drop so she impacts the ball when her paddle is swinging up and out.

When I hit a side top spin, what I call a hook loop, I am usually late and hitting the lower than I usually would.   Because the ball is lower my arm is swinging out and away from my body before it starts to swing up.  I can do this because I am tall.   I can't imagine this being a practical shot for a much smaller 11 year old girl.  Also,  it is hard enough to just loop the back spins back let alone the extra paddle speed it would require hook loop the ball back.   I have done this a few times because I am late but I much prefer to hit the ball at the height where my paddle is moving vertically the fastest to match the back spin. 


 
This is not quite right.  The part you are forgetting is that sidespin loops against backspin also avoid the axis where the spin is heaviest and therefore do not require as much lift.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2013 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


This is not quite right.  The part you are forgetting is that sidespin loops against backspin also avoid the axis where the spin is heaviest and therefore do not require as much lift.
I stand corrected but the maximum spin is not at the axis, it is at the equator.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2013 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:


Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


This is not quite right.  The part you are forgetting is that sidespin loops against backspin also avoid the axis where the spin is heaviest and therefore do not require as much lift.

I stand corrected but the maximum spin is not at the axis, it is at the equator.
I see how my statement can be misread.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2013 at 8:32pm
Hi 33333hhhhh, These sorts of matches are just part of the learning curve for any Jnr (well any player)

1. Video the game and make notes and see what worked and what didn't, and do more of what worked next time.
2. practice against these tactics by getting the coach to do backspin your girl loops and then coach counters and work on power, placement, tactics and recovery to counter their counters etc
3.work on different serve tactics to allow better third ball attacks and reduce getting stuck in pushing game
4. learn pushing game as part of training
5.Get mytt members to argue over nothing
6. Watch other girls play your opponent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2013 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

So you have a choice here to teach your youngsters:  1.  Put 80% of their training on other techniques (serves, pushes, blocks, counters) and 20% on looping.  Or 2.  Make sure they can loop with quality spin at the expense of others (remember 20% means only 12 minutes out of an hour session should be devoted to looping).  My position is simply the MAJORITY of a kid's training should be focused on everything else but looping, with speed and consistency being the most important.  The young girl in question could probably loop very well, but technically speaking her game is faulty as she could not change her game to play against a particular competitor.


Looked back through the thread again.... and GOTTA give +1 to that. It seems everyone everywhere is so over training the FH topspin at the expense of everything else, like serve, serve receive, middle game, pushing, blocking, tactics.

Just about everywhere you see the greatest majority of time spent drilling different FH shots and combos, almost like the 80% RR mentioned. This is so prevalent in Korea as well. It is bang bang Bang FH FH with some combos or multiball involving BH. Rarely any time on serves, pushes, or avoiding attacks.

The FH shots are the most dominant shot in the game and rightfully deserve a lot of attention, but likely other aspects of the game deserve more attention.

I can see a lot of USATT 1200-1300 lower level div 4 or div 5 city players who can bang the ball back and forth close to table low spin FH to FH forever or rip the loop to loop FH at distance, and are totally clueless on how to receive a serve or read spin in general it will surprise you. That is just an indicator of the average club level training.

of course the elite level athletes identified early in their lives... that is a whole different situation and the thread is addressing that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2013 at 7:55pm
Just the inability to be able to push off the bounce and low to a difficult spot sets one up to hung out to dry, especially in doubles. I cannot tell you how many average club level players in doubles recive serve in a manner (like a highish push that lands 1/2 deep right into the FH power zone) that invites a strong and reliable attack form the lowest level of player they have a difficult time missing. Ditto for when you serve and get a long push back, which the same player is indecisive and bumps it back again high and 1/2 deep that gets crushed for a winner over 90%.

Lack of developing other areas of the game have these kind of consequences and failing to address such things is trouble in growing level. Of course elite athletes have no problem of this obvious magnitude, but you get my point.

I think that point is very strongly and clearly expressed by RR and others... and is worthy of re-examination.
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