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2200 Final Show-Me State Games

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mhnh007 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2013 at 10:26am
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

So, basically, more experienced and well ranked players say that no matter how screwed up and twisted your footwork and strokes are, the results vindicate all your clownade. I'll ask these highly esteemed community members again - would you allow your children to learn table tennis from such otherweise successful players?


Huh... here is the thing. While I absolutely agree that it is their prerogative to use whatever style they like most, I would prefer my kids to learn basic technique and strokes from a coach with a more mainstream standards. Later on in life they surely will develop their own styles, acquire their own quirks etc. but in the beginning they need to try to get the solid basic technique with two inverted and regular SH grip.

As I said, they will shift into their own style anyway.

Also - if these theoretical high-ranked but non-standard players were coaching, I am pretty sure they would bring up their students with the standard technique and grip anyway. At least, at first. I know some former pro LP choppers - they do not start teaching kids by putting pips on their BH.
+1.  All Coaches who play Cpen, PIP, or Chopping style still teach the basic Shake hand, 2 wings looping style.  They only teach their own style, if you specific ask for it, and already have the basic training.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2013 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

So, basically, more experienced and well ranked players say that no matter how screwed up and twisted your footwork and strokes are, the results vindicate all your clownade. I'll ask these highly esteemed community members again - would you allow your children to learn table tennis from such otherweise successful players?

 
 
Yes, I would.  Why?  Because I have learned a lot from such players.  Any player who is above 2000 in rating knows how to loop and what good footwork is.  Why?  Because even if they don't play that way, they exploit such knowledge when playing people and usually did something like it at some point while coming up in the game.  Does it mean that he loops to win points?  No.  Does it mean that he uses great footwork to get in position for the ball?  Not necessarily.  But can he teach it to someone else?  Usually, the answer is yes.
 
Even the specialists in almost any style didn't start out playing that way.  Most of them started out doing all the strokes, and then a talent for something or a penchant for winning points in a particular way showed up and that helped them develop their specialist style.  But even the ones that didn't studies the strokes they were playing against that loopers used so they could understand what they were facing.


Edited by NextLevel - 06/26/2013 at 10:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2013 at 6:23pm
Dude, your going nuts with the ask and answer your own questions thing. Why? Because its too many. How many is too many? This already is too many. 
puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2013 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Everton Everton wrote:

Thanks for the compliments on the video and my backhand ;)
 
E,
The mob has taken it easy on you!  Can't say the same for Mr. Martin, except for a few people who stepped up to his defense.  You have won us over with your serves and attacking style!
After his victories in the Open Round Robin and Open Singles events, he may well have been quoting General Zod, but there was someone there to challenge him after all!
Great match!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Everton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2013 at 7:57pm
Thanks, 

It was a pleasure coming to play in the tournament, I had fun.

To the mob if everyone played the same style, then every1 would still have something to say about tennis being boring and someone needs to innovate a new style. Its easy to find faults when your not the one playing  haha



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2013 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

+1.  All Coaches who play Cpen, PIP, or Chopping style still teach the basic Shake hand, 2 wings looping style.  They only teach their own style, if you specific ask for it, and already have the basic training.
 
+1
 
My coach is a former Inverted/LP combo pro player, a FEMALE, at that! What kind of style is that for teaching a macho male power spin attacking 2 wing looper???!!!
 
Well, obviously a damned good one.
 
I came to this city a div 5 player and within 2.5 years of lessons became a city div 2 player.
 
She was doing SOMETHING right, eh?
 
Believe me you. The grueling multiball drills, the single ball practice, the footwork drills, the combo drills requiring fast, explosive movement and hitting for power, then moving explosively again, then hitting for power again... those drills are no joke... all taught and ran by someone who plays defense, a nearly 50 yr old lady at that.
 
Those drills had something to do with moving up 3 levels, just a little, so did her teaching me more about serve receive, impacting the ball earlier, going on attack decisively first, being ready to continue the attack... Those are the macho things we OFF attacking players want to get into. She taught them.
 
She also taught me to allow an opponent to attack after a fast push to their elbow, then block the ball wide FH. I taught myself to laugh like Woody Woodpecker inside when the attacker thought he had an easy point.
 
BOGEYHUNTER, a defensive player, taught me to serve and that any point that got added to my score was MY point, the same as whether I smashed a winner or got a lucky net, they all count as one point and I need to do what it takes to win the most of them by various ways to give me more tactical options and a better chance to win vs different players.
 
Ironic that a player like myself, the prototypical all-out attacking wannabe, learned the majority of TT and developed the most being taught by defending players... That is really ironic, true, and a good example of different playing style coaches emphasizing basic TT skills to grow a player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2013 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

He is doing everything wrong. I guess it is possible to go even higher - look at Pushblocker. That changes nothing. He's doing everything wrong. Here is a rule of thumb that I have found very reliable - if it looks ugly, he is doing something wrong. The correct strokes look very harmonic cooperation between all parts of the body, everything looks natural. Even if he wants to block and defend, he is still doing it wrong. If he wants to be a blocker just watch the entire japanese national team, bar Mizutani. They live off blocking. 

I have to give him one thing though, that does deserve respect - his rating. No matter what you think of his strokes, that rating is hard to achieve. I am very proud of my strokes but I am yet to touch 1800. I know how hard it is. And I imagine it's even harder to compete with strokes like this. You must compensate with extra focus and consistency. 
I find this line of thought very strange.  To imagine that there is some pure, "right" way of doing things sounds like something out of Plato and has about as little to do with the real world.
 
All the "right" methods for playing were developed for very specific purposes.  If you can achieve the same results (or bypass the need to achieve the same things), then you don't need those "right" methods.  For example, we learn specific forms for our strokes in order to develop powerful loops in the most efficient manner possible, but if you're blocking instead of looping, you don't really need to perfect your looping technique.  We work on our footwork in order to let us move into position for our great looping strokes, but if we're not looping, then all that footwork become less important.  We work on our serves (preferably short) and service returns so that we can attack without being attacked, but a blocker isn't going to work about being attacked and might even encourage it (just like the choppers often do!).
 
Don't get me wrong: I work on my footwork and the technical aspects of my game, including quality coaching (Stellan), because I'm one of those two-wing loopers.  It's the way I like to play.  However, someone playing a blocking style just doesn't have the same needs and what you think is ugly or "wrong" is really just suited to their playing style.
 
I think the idea that the "correct" way to play is to loop and attack is a fairly recent phenomenom.  I suppose it's because of the success of the top Chinese attackers over the last 20 years or so.  Keep in mind, however, that the purpose of the Chinese system is to produce world champions, not how to get the most bang for the buck for amateur players.  Certainly Waldner made a lot of use of blocking (Sean O'Neill, who was certainly a big looping attacker, once described playing Waldner as like trying to nail jello to a wall), but he wasn't the first or only one to do so. 
 
People don't get to be 2200+ by luck.  If they reach that level reliably, then they've got a workable system for how to play table tennis.  Maybe they'll never be world champions but they probably aren't aiming for that anyway.  To imagine that there is something intrinsically wrong with what they're doing says more about you projecting your personal biases than it does about table tennis.
 
If I had a child with aspirations to be a national champion or world class player, I would certainly teach him/her the modern looping technique because it's  the most efficient way to play at the highest levels.  However, there are only a very few people who ever reach that level.  So maybe we're better off letting children learns styles that make them happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2013 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by Pondus Pondus wrote:

Here's a more recent video of Eric Boggan, who still has a US Rating of 2500 – playing Chen Zihao (2537):





Pondus, Thank you, this is a very fitting post. Also maybe it helps to explain one of the points being made here. Probably, to some of us the way Eric Boggan plays looks harmonious and effective, coordinated and sensible, even pleasant to watch, and we wouldn't mind at all being able to play like he does (dream on...). At the same time, some other ways to play the blocking style are just less appealing...


Edited by JacekGM - 06/26/2013 at 9:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2013 at 2:40am
Bottom line - 99% of all players play TT as a hobby.
 
Your average player is not going to have a style like a pro or even like an elite amateur player.
 
The Push - Blocker style has emerged which allows some amateurs to compete at a much higher level. 
 
They are kind of like a street fighter on the ping pong table, their style is considered unorthodox but they win by surviving matches with their guile vs trained TT fighters.
 
Everyone receives their own type of enjoyment from their TT hobby based on lots of different factors, time available, personal training when they were youth, aerobic exercise, low injury risk, inexpensive compared to other activities, their fun level, their competition need, etc.
 
 
 


Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 06/27/2013 at 2:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2013 at 2:51am
Eric Boggan should be disqualified for systematically not tossing the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2013 at 11:07am
Boggan should be disqualified anyway : )

If anyone was posting directed to me - keep in mind I refuse to read anything longer than 7-8 lines. I know you think you have something really important to say, but 'believe you me'. you don't. I can reduce your post to 3 lines and not lose any information. Here is BH-Man's post: 'I know this mythical coach, she knows karate and kung-fu and she can disapear in thin air, yata-yata-yata, END'. What did I miss?
puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bonggoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2013 at 11:11am
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Boggan should be disqualified anyway : )

If anyone was posting directed to me - keep in mind I refuse to read anything longer than 7-8 lines. I know you think you have something really important to say, but 'believe you me'. you don't. I can reduce your post to 3 lines and not lose any information. Here is BH-Man's post: 'I know this mythical coach, she knows karate and kung-fu and she can disapear in thin air, yata-yata-yata, END'. What did I miss?


You should start listening. And maybe, just maybe, you and your standard strokes can finally touch 1800.

Short enough for you?


Edited by bonggoy - 06/27/2013 at 11:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2013 at 11:15am
Originally posted by bonggoy bonggoy wrote:

Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Boggan should be disqualified anyway : )

If anyone was posting directed to me - keep in mind I refuse to read anything longer than 7-8 lines. I know you think you have something really important to say, but 'believe you me'. you don't. I can reduce your post to 3 lines and not lose any information. Here is BH-Man's post: 'I know this mythical coach, she knows karate and kung-fu and she can disapear in thin air, yata-yata-yata, END'. What did I miss?


You should start listening. And maybe, just maybe, you and your standard strokes can finally touch 1800.

Just ignore his posts.  It's not worth your time.
Sometimes I think he's just trolling, but maybe he actually believes the things he says.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2013 at 4:46am
Originally posted by bonggoy bonggoy wrote:



You should start listening. And maybe, just maybe, you and your standard strokes can finally touch 1800.

Short enough for you?
I like it.
puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2013 at 6:00am
Some of Boggan's serves are illegal, since they don't go up 6" and/or he contacts the ball before it starts descending.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LoopsALot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2013 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Pondus Pondus wrote:

Here's a more recent video of Eric Boggan, who still has a US Rating of 2500 – playing Chen Zihao (2537):




does anyone know what rubbers Boggan was using?  Very nice blocking to alternating corners. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote naijachief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2013 at 11:05pm
That was a pretty good match. I played Chen Zihao once before and he smoked me quick 3-0. Eric had him frustrated out there but eventually got the win. I would not only be distracted by Eric's style but those clothes would have definitely thrown my focus off.....,lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoFootwork Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2013 at 9:40am
Eric is approaching, if not already crossed 50.  He has barely played in the last many years.  He picks up his racket to play in 1 tournament per year (NATT Teams) and is still managing to play about 2450-2500 level.

The 2 color rule has a huge impact to his game.  He had/has excellent hands, twiddling and blocking with both anti and inverted to difficult angles and finishing with his FH.  In his prime he had many wins against top players of the world.

His serves look fairly simple but are tight and it was difficult even for top world class players to open very strong against it.  They were designed to coax an attack that would get Eric into blocking mode, allowing him to jerk the opponent around.  His serves are as legal (or illegal) as most other world class players.

If you were good enough you would be distracted not only by his style but his antics as well.  If you weren't good enough, he would simply smoke you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2013 at 11:30am
why is he playing with tights? That makes.. everybody uncomfortable
puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Everton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2013 at 12:50am
From the main video, what would you guys guess my rating should be??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pondus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2013 at 9:16am
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

why is he playing with tights? That makes.. everybody uncomfortable

LOL
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