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Clarence247 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09/07/2014 at 9:42pm
I would like to seek the advice of players who regularly use (boosted) Chinese rubbers and have tried a few of them - particularly more experienced players... (post is long..for short version simply skip to the Questions below in bold)

In my mind there are 3 catagories of Chinese rubbers:

G888, Hurricane 2, and Tg3 belong to one "type" of Chinese rubbers - which force a player to attack more, are low throw, and are better for close to table. They demand full commitment on the 3rd ball attack, give excellent spin, and control with good power then using force close to the table... the characteristics allow a trained player to play with a lot of force as control is optimal.

Hurricane 3, Globe 999 National, Tg2 are more user friendly to players used to Euro / Jap rubbers - they are higher throw, and are able to play an all round game better than the other type. They are also better than the H2 type a bit futher away. They require (and produce) less powerful 3rd ball attacks and aim to control the point not finish it on the 3rd ball... They are slower on full power, close to the table attacks, but are able to play with more power and safety at mid distance... (of course, they still do not have the same EUro/Jap catapult and require more forward force.)

There is a 3rd category - the modern hyrid chinese rubbers which are even closer to Euro style like Sanwei T88-i, Galaxy Mars, Dawei IQUL, Dawei 2008 Super Power XP etc... but then these are mostly adequate for European style play up to mid distance with slightly less catapult, more control and sometimes more spin.

My Questions relate to the 1st 2 categories:
To someone who normally play Euro / Jap rubbers at a good level with good technique...but no experience in CHinese rubbers.

If he were to pick up 2 rubbers of the same category (ex Hurricane 2 or G888) and try to play with them say for 2/3 days... would he be able to even differentiate between them?? 

What if he were to play with an H3 vs an H2 - would the difference be obvious to him?

Are rubbers of the same category basically interchangeable for players who play with Chinese rubbers regularly? For example if someone who normally uses H3 Pro had to be handed Tg2 or even Globe 999 Nat (which is slower) - would he adapt fast? Would it cause a difference in his game?

Could someone point out differences between the rubbers of the same catagories (ie compare H3 to Globe 999 Nat to Tg2 and how significant these differences actually are?)

If someone had to ask me the same question about Euro / Jap rubbers - say to compare 2 ESN rubbers of a similar hardness...I would say - all in all there are rubbers for extreme speed and others with more control and spin.... but overall, the differences are not significant enough - one could adapt within 2/3 days or at most a week if he had good technique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ndragon88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2014 at 4:54am
You can definitely tell the difference at any point, and you can play with almost any of them with good technique too.
It will just be little tweaks that make a difference in which you will prefer. But enough practice with 1 and you can get the hang of it. Chinese rubbers are more demanding which is the main difference.

A very recent experience for me, is that I was using NEO H3 Comm for quite a while, and just recently tried NEO TG3 Comm. I have gotten used to it already but overall I play better with H3. Although give me time and I would definitely be able to play at the same standard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butt Stallion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2014 at 9:04am
I think there is a little miss understanding here in terms of spin and throw. If you read the basic physics about a rotating ball, the throw is always a result of spin. Means as harder you brush the ball from the right side, lets say a side spin serve, as more the ball is going to curve to the left side. 

With high and low its the same, because you simply just rotate the picture about the side serve I gave you up to 90 degree up.
If you play a topspin you add "top" "spin" to the ball means as higher the ball's throw is as more spin you generated. 

Do unterstand it a little bit better you can try a simple test: Get yourself a racket with completely non grippy rubbers. You are not able to grip the ball and you are not able to produce spin. And do you know what is happening with the ball while playing topspin? It simply just falls down in front of your racket cause you cant add spin to it (because you dont have any grip).

So without spin no throw! A lot of spin, a lot of throw. It just depends from wich side youre coming.
And it doesnt matter if its side spin or back or topspin, its always the same physics. With backspin as flatter the ball is rotating as more backspin you put into the ball.

Okay now we got this, lets look at the chinese/ european comparison:
DHS Skyline TG3 is not a low throw rubber because this would mean it wouldnt produce a lot of spin. The spin of TG3 is truly a beast and its completey high throw like H3. 

Hurricane 2 has middle to low throw yes and everybody knows in terms of spin it cant hold up to the other. This is simply the reason why nobody is playing H2 anymore. WLQ was the only one who was playing H2 all the time back in the days they played with the 38mm ball. But table tennis changed in terms of spin, everybody is playing with more spinnier equibment because the ball changed so H2 completely died in China, even WLQ switched to the spinny H3.

The reason why chinese rubbers have superior qualitys to euro/jap rubbers are simply because you can variate more with chinese rubbers.

You are able to produce high arc looping while at the same time you can flit the balls very flat.

Take T05 for example, best jap in the world. T05 is simply the best rubber in the world for all non chinese players because it generates the most of spin (highest throw) and people especially the pros realzied it. Thats why almost nobody plays 25 series, low throw and no spin at all. You can follow the pros equibment, everything makes sense in their world.

But with the T05 every loop of yours is going to produce a high throw which you cant really change while chinese rubbers are able to produce a lot of spin with high arc looping and at the same time flat hitting third ball attacks. 

T64 is good for flat hitting but the spin of T64 is less compared to T05. 

I mean the differences are not huuuuge because chinese players would be probably better with T05 as well than the rest of the world, but chinese rubbers are still relevant for their game.

And this counts of every other rubber in the world. Throw is always a result of spin, no throw no spin! Chinese rubbers are able to play both while only grippy rubbers are able to play the one (very good in smashing or looping, not really both). 

But these are very very detailled informations, a good player can always do everything what he or she wants to do and for average players its not even obviously. 
There was an article of WLQ like a few years ago where he explained exactly the same what I just said but I cant find it anymore. But about the comparison between euro/jap vs. chinese rubbers he said completey the same so it has to be true especially for pros who can feel every ball perfectly.
Besides he said you simply have more dwell time with sticky rubbers and you have more precision and control because you lead the ball a little bit more.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2014 at 9:54am
Thanks for a very nice detailed response with a lot of information Butt Stalion. I too agree that spin and throw are related - not only on spin shots, but even on blocks where spinnier, grippier rubbers react more to the incoming spin and throw the ball back higher and longer.

There are however some very spinny rubbers which tend to keep the ball slightly lower - for example G888 produces lower arc than H3 but is not necessarily less spinny. Rubbers which need a higher speed to have high spin will have lower throw than rubber which can produce very spinny shots on low impact, because the speed lowers the angle of flight at which the ball travels.

You have also compared a bit CHinese to EUro rubbers - which has been discussed before and I am familiar with the differences... rather than differences between chinese and Euro however, I would like to know differences between chinese rubbers when compare to each other....

1) to someone who does not regularly use Chinese rubbers - what are the differences between them (Chinese rubber vs Chinese rubber - for example H3 vs Globe 999 nat, vs Tg2 vs G888 vs Tg3) and are they even significant ? Would he notice given his inexperience?

2) to someone who uses CHinese rubbers regularly - are the differences significant? Or are they interchangeable? ( for example many Euro rubbers are quite interchangeable - not all of course )

3) could someone briefly compare the main chinese rubbers head to head?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2014 at 10:44am
yeah, thanks Butt Stallion
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2014 at 1:43pm
throw is a result of speed and spin. 

given the same impetus...

a fast rubber will result in greater forward momentum covering a longer horizontal distance with respect to the angle it's released at. (lower throw). 

a slower rubber will have less forward momentum and be picked up by your upward angle swing before coming down from spin and gravity (higher throw)

see eq. for trajectory motion in vacuum + effect of spin: 

distance is directly related to velocity -> d=v^2*sin(2*theta)/g 
(ever wondered why 45 deg? -> sin(2*90)=1 -> "max distance is obtained when theta (angle) is 45 deg")

Then we have lift from spin (Magnus force) where coeff(lift) = 1/(2+v/spin). L is normalized to D and for topspin, it points "downwards" so don't confuse "lift" as having to be up. *drag doesn't affect trajectory much, less influenced by spin, more by Re

L = 1/2*coeff(lift)*(air dens*pi*r^2*v^2)
D = same but with coeff(drag)

from the lift force eq L, we can see at lower speeds, spin has more of an effect on trajectory, but at higher speeds, the v^2 will have a much greater influence compared to spin which influences coeff(lift) to a max of 1/2 as spin->infinity. in contrast, the drag coeffcient can be greater than 1/2.

wang liqin switched to h3 bc h2 emphasized spin, while h3 was more all around speed+spin. as the game shifted from 38mm to 40mm, speed and power became more important: 

we can see from our eq. that the increase in ball size increases increases L with greater effect than spin (^3 exp. vs fractional). 
the Kutta-Joukowski Lift Theorem eq for ideal lift of a spinning ball derives L as: 
L = 4/3(4*pi^2*ball radius)^3*v*density(air)*velocity(air)
As both drag and lift (pointing down) increase, the ball travels a shorter distance and drops earlier given the same impetus as before. 

So while the change to the 40mm ball did indeed seek to slow the game down, the designers failed to understand that in order to win, players will still target the same trajectories. In order to do that, they're hitting faster shots to cover the same ground, so yes, the game has sped up! So players like Wang Liqin switching to faster equipment benefitted from not having to exert proportionally greater effort to achieve shot effectiveness with the new ball.

If the ball is further increased to 44mm, it may be easier to see, but the game will become even faster, require greater physical fitness, the rallies shorter, and maybe not as interesting to see since no one can really keep up at that point. you don't even see as long rallies now compared to before. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butt Stallion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2014 at 7:35pm
thanks for the detailled forumulas kurokami. 

Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

1) to someone who does not regularly use Chinese rubbers - what are the differences between them (Chinese rubber vs Chinese rubber - for example H3 vs Globe 999 nat, vs Tg2 vs G888 vs Tg3) and are they even significant ? Would he notice given his inexperience?

2) to someone who uses CHinese rubbers regularly - are the differences significant? Or are they interchangeable? ( for example many Euro rubbers are quite interchangeable - not all of course )

3) could someone briefly compare the main chinese rubbers head to head?

1) not significant, chinese rubbers are going to be different but differences between certain chinese rubbers, probably the player is going to feel some differnences but they arent that big!

2) Well significant in terms of what... There are differnences between TG3 and H3 but they are not like short pimple vs. long pimple. It depends how good and sensible the players are, I feel a lot of differences between rubbers but I know player who dont care about equibment and they are way better than all of us. But in general there are differneces yes.

3) I didnt play all of them but I can try it a little bit:

H3: controlled and spinny rubber, produces high throw while topspins
TG3: a little bit faster than the H3, spinny and high throw, but less spinny than H3 is very hard to say, maybe
H2: definitely lower throw, less spinny but at the end the fastest of them. Its harder as well.

I played the Haifu Whale 3 and didnt really like it, especially not for the price! Plays more like TG series but worse. The new H3.50 is kind of a "starter" chinese rubber, good for allround game and it teaches you how to play with sticky rubbers but at the end not as good the real NEO series.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bns7117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 12:18am
so... When i talked about throw angle of certain rubber, i meant the curve of the ball over the net with the same releasing angle and hitting speed of the paddle. Does that even count as the term "throw"...?

I thought chinese rubbers are slower compared to Euro/Jap rubbers, and less bouncy, thus less trajectory with the same swing speed.

SO the height/horizontal distance of curve/path of the ball(with chinese rubbers) over the net with the same releasing angle and swing speed should be lower/shorter than Euro/Jap rubbers?

Thus chinese rubbers would have higher "throw", which means lower curve/path of the ball over the net...?

I guess i shouldn't use this term anymore before i fully understand its meaning...

Edited by bns7117 - 09/18/2014 at 12:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hhca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 11:20am

probably this will be simpler: Play with one rubber and get used to it in blocking/countering top spin balls, i.e., you can land the ball on the table most of the time. Then switch to a new rubber. If you find you are hitting the net initially a lot, then the new rubber has a lower throw than the first one. If your balls go long a lot, then the new rubber has a higher throw than the first one.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bns7117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 11:53am
"The throw angle of a rubber is whether the rubber tends to 'throw' the ball higher or lower when making the same stroke. Given the same return from your opponent, and the same stroke by you, a rubber that puts the ball in the net is considered to have a 'lower throw' than a rubber than puts the ball on the table. For the same circumstances, a rubber that puts the ball off the end of the table is considered to have a 'high throw'. You will sometimes hear players talk about 'degrees of throw' - basically a rubber than puts the ball low has a low degree of throw, and vice versa.

Generally, low throw rubbers have degrees of throw in the 30s, while 40-44 degrees of throw is roughly a medium throw rubber, and higher than 44 degrees of throw is typically considered a high throw rubber. These numbers are not exact, and may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

This throw angle is not an exact science (contrary to what you might think from reading on the various forums!), but more of a comparative feel between different rubbers. A rubber with a high throw is not better or worse than a rubber with a low throw, it is just different. Generally, low throw rubbers are considered to be easier to play with against topspin, while high throw rubbers are supposed to be able to lift backspin over the net more easily".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bns7117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 11:57am
this is the more appropriate definition?

so is it correct to say that tenergy rubbers have high throw because with the same stroke, they put the ball off the end of the table?

and chinese rubbers have low throw because with the same stroke, the ball tends to hit the net more often if you don't swing with more upward motion?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hhca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 12:08pm

throw angle is different from how bouncy the rubbers are.

If you hold you blade with the same angle wrt the horizontal line, with the same incoming ball, high throw rubber will return the ball with lager angle wrt the horizontal line.
 
for H3, it's definitely not a low throw rubber compared with tenergy. Probably higher than Tenergy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 12:15pm
There are no "types" per se, only various spectrums and you can find any variation if you look hard enough:
 
topsheet tacky?
topsheet thick or thin?
sponge hard or soft?
sponge springy or dead?
 
You could give me values (1-10) for each of these, and I bet we could come up with a rubber that matches.


Edited by cole_ely - 09/18/2014 at 12:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 12:19pm
I think Chinese rubbers should be rated on a scale from 1 - 10 according to fishy smell, i.e., 

DHS H3: 9
Globe 999:  7
Air Illumina:  8

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Edited by tommyzai - 09/18/2014 at 12:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 12:29pm
Mine are 10!  Fishy smell = synthetics in the sponge = good!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Mine are 10!  Fishy smell = synthetics in the sponge = good!

Cole, what are the main playing characteristic differences between synthetics in the rubber and raw rubber? I know an MP player who is quite proud that his 563 is "raw rubber." I'm not sure why, but he's proud. ;-)


Edited by tommyzai - 09/18/2014 at 12:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bns7117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by hhca hhca wrote:

<p abp="1753">throw angle is different from how bouncy the rubbers are.

<div abp="1754">If you hold you blade with the same angle wrt the horizontal line, with the same incoming ball, high throw rubber will return the ball with lager angle wrt the horizontal line. <div abp="1754"> <div abp="1754">for H3, it's definitely not a low throw rubber compared with tenergy. Probably higher than Tenergy.


thanks for clearing that up. so what should i call the higher/lower curve of the returning ball wrt longer/shorter horizontal path?

throw arc? or is there a different term that describes that.

what i want to say is that H3 has lower bounce than Tenergy(i assume i am right?), so with the same incoming ball, same returning racquet angle and same power on hitting(same really means approximately here...), the arc of the ball stays lower, and horizontal path of that arc is similar or shorter than from what is produced from tenergy.

or am i wrong again...?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 1:09pm
raw rubber refers to the topsheet, not the sponge.  I used to know what the difference was.  I know inverted topsheets that were mostly raw rubber were heavy. Synthetics make it lighter.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hhca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by bns7117 bns7117 wrote:

Originally posted by hhca hhca wrote:

<p abp="1753">throw angle is different from how bouncy the rubbers are.

<div abp="1754">If you hold you blade with the same angle wrt the horizontal line, with the same incoming ball, high throw rubber will return the ball with lager angle wrt the horizontal line. <div abp="1754"> <div abp="1754">for H3, it's definitely not a low throw rubber compared with tenergy. Probably higher than Tenergy.


thanks for clearing that up. so what should i call the higher/lower curve of the returning ball wrt longer/shorter horizontal path?

throw arc? or is there a different term that describes that.

what i want to say is that H3 has lower bounce than Tenergy(i assume i am right?), so with the same incoming ball, same returning racquet angle and same power on hitting(same really means approximately here...), the arc of the ball stays lower, and horizontal path of that arc is similar or shorter than from what is produced from tenergy.

or am i wrong again...?

 
if you insist, "long/short throw" may be more accurate in describing what you meant or "long/short trajectory".
 
You compensate rubber bounciness by excerting different forces and compensate differences in throw angle by closing/openning the blades with different angles. You combine these two actions with the sole purpose of landing the ball in the desired spot. these two are related but reflects two aspects of the rubber characteristics
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bns7117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 3:12pm
ohhhhh that's why h3 has higher throw because we need to open the blade angle more to let the ball get over the net?

thus h3 has low trajectory and higher throw?

hopefully i am understanding it right this time.

thanks hhca, it makes sense to me now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hhca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 3:21pm
no. You need to close the blade more ( more parallel ) to ground or the ball will go off the table with H3.
 
but I start to understand your confusion: You practice partner must be hitting through the ball more than top spin it. If there is little top spin in the incoming ball, H3 rubber may feel low through due to its "dead" feeling compared with tenergy.
 
Try block some loops from a higher level player you will feel the difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bns7117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2014 at 4:18pm
ohhhhh i see! that's what's up! thanks man. i will try that.

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