|
|
Plastic balls debacle (to all TDs out there) |
Post Reply | Page <1 456 |
Author | ||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
ttnpp.com is also a good site for the XSF 3*. I have used them and pingpongdepot.com |
||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
||||
Sponsored Links | ||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Agreed. I am using both balls to practice for Nationals, FWIW. |
||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I'll start using them regularly next week. In the meantime, I went to the Nittaku website and sent them a message encouraging them to switch from DHS to Xushaofu for their non-premium tournament ball. I think this matters especially for North American players since USATT currently is either affiliated with or sponsored by Nittaku. |
||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
FWIW I also use both XSF and NP40+ more or equally (since I have some NP40+ might as well use them since they play fine). Takes a couple of minutes to accommodate the switch.
|
||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I don't know which part is too simplistic. You said glass is denser by 4x, so as a solid let's assume it's about 4x stiffer, that's our target. We're looking for increase in thickness that's also about 4x stiffer. This is a ~x^3 relationship per: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%E2%80%93Love_plate_theory#Bending_under_transverse_load I've linked to the section with relevant derivation where x^3 relationship is clear. h is thickness and E is elasticity modulus and v some material attribute. The equation itself is trivial. The size is not terribly relevant here. If it helps put your mind at ease, the speed of sound in wood is ~3k m/s, and thus the "sound cone" (akin to "light cone" boundary of interaction in relativity) is ~1m in radius. |
||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
They do however provide insights otherwise difficult to figure. For example my post that I suspect nobody understood even though it's pretty straightforward: > Also worth noting that using such a 1/2" table (and ~230mm bounce with cell ball, or maybe bit higher) is as much worse than the close to ~245mm DHS bounce on a 1" table as DHS is to cell. I'm guessing a 18mm table isn't far off from that 245mm with cell. Make of that what yall will. This means that on mediocre table a cell ball can bounce _lower_ than a DHS plastic on a good table (perhaps up to similar amount that the DHS is lower than cell). Let that sink in for a min. Now that it's clear what it means, let's start a campaign to ban anything but thick tables to alleviate the sport's suffering from low bounce. |
||||
JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Because they wanted to try and cover up the actual reasoning behind the switch. "We are only doing it for greater good and also because those horrible capitalists are forcing us to abandon our beloved celluloid". That kind of thing.... |
||||
Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I suspect many people understood the point. They just realized that it wasn't particularly relevant since most clubs and competitive players look for table with tops at least 1 inch thick. It was just another sidetrack off of this existing sidetrack. There's no need for a campaign. I think few clubs use 18mm tables. I've never been to a sanctioned tournament that does. |
||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Serious "pro" clubs usually have 1" tables, but that's far from the case for average TT clubs some of which do sponsor tournaments. I recall 3/4" was used as intl tournament standard tables.
--- Eg: http://www.tabletennisdb.com/table/doublefish-99-45b.html "Official table for 45th World Table Tennis Championships" --- I also suspect some got the point, but it's more polite not insinuate they don't really care if it's not about the ball. Edited by AgentHEX - 12/03/2014 at 4:23pm |
||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
It seemed to me that the dimension of the plate affects its stiffness. Also, since the plate is simply sitting in a frame it seems like the mass would be a factor as well. But perhaps not since the frame is coupled to the ground.
Or we could just look it up. The Young's modulus for glass is about 12 to 22 times that of MDF, not 4. If all we need to do is consider stiffness and thickness using the ~x^3 relationship, then the estimated 7mm thick glass is equivalent to an MDF board between 16mm and 19mm thick. The ITTF T3 pamphlet says that 18mm particle board should normally be sufficient to provide the appropriate uniform bounce of an approved ball. But given the low accuracy the information and the range of glass stiffness, this at least seems within the ballpark of the bounce reduction we are seeing if we also consider that the full 305mm drop height is not being exploited.
|
||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
||||
igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
POOR BOY. I know a retard, a boy fibblewitted. He would oftentimes set down into a prolonged speach about nothing, some snowfall of blank verbosity. Nobody would want hear this speach. Being aware of his mental deficiense people used to say with an open compassion "oh, poor boy, poor child inconscious". |
||||
ttTurkey
Silver Member Joined: 09/07/2010 Status: Offline Points: 516 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
WTF???!!! |
||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
There's probably something in plate theory to calculate for edge effects; I doubt they're significant esp. here. As for mass the diff even against a racket is already massive that more orders of magnitude won't matter. It's possible that external scaffolding like legs under a table reinforces its stiffness (so bounces at the legs are higher), and also alters the sound.
Can you do same drop test on a table to verify? That diff seems greater than it intuitively feels like, but if anything it only exaggerates the point about bounce diff if table material modulus is really that low. Ie. tables makes way more diff than brand/type of ball. |
||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
fibblewit.
The insult of the day. |
||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Perhaps the solution is to switch to new balls before it breaks. Similar to what they do in Tennis, pros change balls every 9 games (7 the first time due to warm up use).
So maybe we need to realize plastic (some) are not very durable and as soon as they start developing soft spots - time to change and relegate the used balls to practice ball status.
|
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Or better yet -- an even easier solution and cheaper -- don't use the crappy ones when plastic balls are manufactured and sold that don't have these problems.
|
||||
vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Seems Igor has accidentally added a new word to the English language - and we've witnessed its first use.
|
||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
A friend brought back some Joola balls from NATT - they played beautifully for about 5 minutes and then started getting soft with weird bounces. He had few he wanted try and switching balls worked nicely - but you're right it would be expensive.
|
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Joola poly balls = The Yugo (named "worst of the millennium") of table tennis balls.
|
||||
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I dunno. I drop-tested one well used NP 40+ and it bounced clearly lower than the new NP 40+ balls. I don't have a well used XSF yet. |
||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
BTW, I got a response from Nittaku regarding the SHA ball.
"Dear Mr. Turberville, Thank you for your e-mail and we appreciate your continued attention to Nittaku for a long time. Re: SHA 40+ Ball We thank you for your valuable opinion. We will do our best for the improvement of better quality for SHA 40+ Ball. Please kindly understand that these kinds of new balls have just begun after the history of one hundred year for celluloid balls. Thank you and best regards," Who knows what or if they'll do anything. But it probably wouldn't hurt if others complained as well.
|
||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
What's the address for complaining?
|
||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
||||
roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I wonder if 2-pc construction of seamed balls (including celluloid) is the reason why well-used balls tend to lose bounce (lose air? lower pressure?). I have some very picky friends who will not use even moderately used Nittaku Premium cells because of slightly lower bounce. I have not really paid attention to the bouncing characteristics of well-used XSF seamless balls yet (been using only NP40+ to prep for the Nationals). |
||||
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Same with most celluloid balls. In any case, in tournaments we don't necessarily expect balls to last long enough to become well-used, but we don't want to have to change the ball mid-match. In any case, I have been playing with XSF now for several months. They don't have this problem. |
||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I'm wondering if the are slightly pressurized. When the first announcement came out, I seem to recall them talking about the ability to pressurize the seamless ball a bit. |
||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
||||
Post Reply | Page <1 456 |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |