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    Posted: 02/17/2015 at 3:40am
Is it just me, or aren't the serves of the player in black shorts in this video illegal?  The ball rarely rose the minimum 6" from the tossing hand, and was coming from the fingers instead of the palm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv8-fOWtG5o

(Match starts at 1:35)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 3:50am
Originally posted by pingponger pingponger wrote:

Is it just me, or aren't the serves of the player in black shorts in this video illegal?  The ball rarely rose the minimum 6" from the tossing hand, and was coming from the fingers instead of the palm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv8-fOWtG5o

(Match starts at 1:35)



Yep, illegal toss and quick hit, wonder why in this final they didn't enforce the serving rules ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttTurkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 4:04am
It's marginal at best but this seems like a slight variation of this thread: http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70329&PN=2#855918

I have found that a lot of players active in the 70's and early 80's (pre-pendulum serve) serve almost out of the hand using their backhands. I recently played an ex-Bundesliga player from the 80's who served exactly like that (except short and spinny).

All I know is that I would much rather face that serve than a perfectly legal pendulum/reverse-pendulum serve, and I would question what advantage the server is gaining. I'm sure the "rules are rules" guys will disagree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ttTurkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 4:10am
On a different note, there were about double the number of spectators watching that match than the Kuwait open finals!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by pingponger pingponger wrote:

Is it just me, or aren't the serves of the player in black shorts in this video illegal?  The ball rarely rose the minimum 6" from the tossing hand, and was coming from the fingers instead of the palm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv8-fOWtG5o

(Match starts at 1:35)



Yes, badly illegal. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by pingponger pingponger wrote:

Is it just me, or aren't the serves of the player in black shorts in this video illegal?  The ball rarely rose the minimum 6" from the tossing hand, and was coming from the fingers instead of the palm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv8-fOWtG5o

(Match starts at 1:35)



Yep, illegal toss and quick hit, wonder why in this final they didn't enforce the serving rules ?



Because neither the players, officials nor spectators cared about strict observance of ITTF serve rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThePongProfessor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 2:21pm
As discussed in a different thread (http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70329&PN=2#856033): Let's get rid of difficult-to-enforce rules (or rules that aren't enforced at amateur levels) - it saves frustrations. I am not an anarchist: I just want a pleasant playing experience where the winner is found mano y mano (and not through rule bending).  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pathfinderpro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by pingponger pingponger wrote:

Is it just me, or aren't the serves of the player in black shorts in this video illegal?  The ball rarely rose the minimum 6" from the tossing hand, and was coming from the fingers instead of the palm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv8-fOWtG5o

(Match starts at 1:35)



Yep, illegal toss and quick hit, wonder why in this final they didn't enforce the serving rules ?



Interesting you comment on ball toss. If you watch his opponents serving hand, it often drops below the height of the table during the throw up - also illegal. Height, or shielding the ball - something you certainly can't accuse the player with the black shorts of doing - are what most players pick up on but there are a number of other aspects to a legal serve which often get over looked. Two of the most common are where the player starts their throw up with their hand over the table and also where the player starts the throw up from the centre line but makes contact with the ball virtually outside the edge of the table and a fair distance behind it (sideways and backwards throw up).

Regarding who's responsibility it is to call it, as a local league, there's a thin line between playing table tennis for fun and complying with international rules and regulations.  We as a league take the approach that it's up to the opponent to comment that the service is illegal, not the umpire. Umpires are volunteers from either of the teams playing in a match, who don't want to come for a hard days work to end up getting into an argument with another player.  If the opponent complains to the umpire, then the umpire will enforce "international" rules on serving.

In this instance, the umpire was another player who'd competed on the night and had agreed to score the game - not something there's a mad rush to do.

In my experience, many people only complain about serves if:

1. They know the rules
2. They are confident they themselves don't foul serve - very few people fall into this category (people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones)
3. Are confident none of their own team mates foul serve
4. Believe their opponent is gaining an unfair advantage from the serve

As a league we usually send out reminders about the laws of serving but unless we receive a formal complaint about a specific incident, we can't act on it other than to issue reminders about what the laws of serving are.

Both these players play in town team matches for Preston against other leagues in the North West and I can't remember ever hearing about their serves being reported back to our league about them being illegal.

Where do you draw the line, and how much of an argument do you want to get in to over what is a hobby and played for fun.  I've heard this type of conversation a few times:

player 1: "You're serving illegally, you're not throwing the ball up!"
player 2: "I've served like this for years, this isn't the olympics you know"
player 1: "Well maybe I'll pick and chose which rules I want to adopt and which to break and see how you like it"
player 2: "Now you're being pathetic - get over it, we're here to play table tennis and have fun"

... and so it goes on.

The hard part for coaches is when juniors see seniors serving illegal and try and copy them.

John Hilton once took a coaching session at our club.  One of the exercises was about serving and I asked him directly about throwing the ball up properly.  His response was it's only an illegal serve if the umpire calls it an illegal serve. The implication was that you should push it to the limit and only when you find what you're umpires limit is, should you push it no more.  If you can get away with "foul" serving, so be it - and watching the pro's that seems to be a common approach.

Also, wasn't there a thread here somewhere which accused an international umpire of spoiling a match because the were enforcing the rules rigorously and kept calling someone for a foul serve?  Didn't that umpire get a lot of stick for applying the letter of the law.

Sometimes you can't win, and a quieter life is easier, especially at amateur level.  Not saying that's right, just that it's less confrontational.



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThePongProfessor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 4:31pm
"It's only an illegal serve if the umpire calls it an illegal serve. The implication was that you should push it to the limit and only when you find what you're umpires limit is, should you push it no more.  If you can get away with "foul" serving, so be it - and watching the pro's that seems to be a common approach."

The problem in a nutshell. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 6:25pm
I agree both players had some illegal serves (I did not watch every serve). The guy with the quick backhand serve who served with a very short toss is someone I would "call" it on in any match. His technique of bouncing the ball quickly then suddenly serving is either consciously or unconsciously done to suddenly surprise the opponent. IMO of course. I would not call him on it IF he had a reasonable toss OR if he did not bounce the ball rapidly before he served because if he only did one of those actions I would have time to get ready to return the serve. I thought his technique was one to serve when the opponent was not ready to receive. Of course if those two guys have been playing for years they probably know what to expect.

I do not mind if another player points out an illegal serve, indeed I welcome it. I want to do it correctly all the time. I would rather lose than to win but not follow the rules. I purposely try to be deceptive on my serve, but not illegal. 6 inches, hiding the ball with your body or arm, throwing it up with an open palm, etc. are actually pretty easy rules to follow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheondo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 9:28pm
It's the problem and reality and it ain't going away anytime soon. 

I deal with this by watching the trajectory and bounce of the ball, not the players motion or contact. 

And in local league matches, which is what almost all of us play, who's going to enforce the rules?! Nobody. So, stop whining and learn how to read spin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 11:48pm
I get its hard to read spin when it is hidden….
But honestly i have never played anyone with a really good toss-less serve… can someone explain to me what the advantage is with no toss?? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2015 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by cheondo cheondo wrote:

It's the problem and reality and it ain't going away anytime soon. 

I deal with this by watching the trajectory and bounce of the ball, not the players motion or contact. 

And in local league matches, which is what almost all of us play, who's going to enforce the rules?! Nobody. So, stop whining and learn how to read spin. 

do you really never look at motion and contact point? 
In an ideal world where everyone serves legally do you find trajectory and bounce is a better indicator then motion and contact?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 12:00am
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by cheondo cheondo wrote:

It's the problem and reality and it ain't going away anytime soon. 

I deal with this by watching the trajectory and bounce of the ball, not the players motion or contact. 

And in local league matches, which is what almost all of us play, who's going to enforce the rules?! Nobody. So, stop whining and learn how to read spin. 

do you really never look at motion and contact point? 
In an ideal world where everyone serves legally do you find trajectory and bounce is a better indicator then motion and contact?

i don't look at motion and contact point that much either. i more so look at the ball to determine the spin. whenever i watch an opponents serve i am deceived, when i just watch the ball i read it much better.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttTurkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 12:03am
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

I get its hard to read spin when it is hidden….
But honestly i have never played anyone with a really good toss-less serve… can someone explain to me what the advantage is with no toss?? 

The best players that I have played with (almost) toss-less backhand serves, say WR top 100 in the late 70's early 80's, gained an advantage by being able to serve very short with a low bounce.

I don't see the guy in the video in the OP gaining that advantage so while his serves aren't strictly legal (I think some of them are, and he generally started throwing the ball higher as the match went on) he isn't really gaining a great deal IMO by serving long and fast.


Edited by ttTurkey - 02/18/2015 at 12:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThePongProfessor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 12:20am
So chendo, if I follow your logic, you wouldn't have a problem if hidden serves were made legal? My point is that they should be made legal because the current rule isn't or cannot be easily enforced, which opens up the possibility for unnecessary cheating/arguments...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 3:41am


STATIONERY HAND PALM IS A RIGID MUST.

I used always to require the free hand palm to stay CLEARLY moveless before tossing the ball upwards at the serving, since have got totally convinced that the "sliding hand" is the very illegality to distract the receiver most badly.
   I gonna easely forgive any service inconsistency other than the "sliding" non-stationery hand palm at the start of service action.

THE HAND'S PALM MUST BE CLEARLY STATIONERY.    
"On Motion" serving is never excusable. NEVER.



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Edited by igorponger - 02/19/2015 at 3:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by pathfinderpro pathfinderpro wrote:



Sometimes you can't win, and a quieter life is easier, especially at amateur level.  Not saying that's right, just that it's less confrontational.
 

Exactly.  And this is why I know longer make an issue of serves when playing in our club. But I am a club umpire and I do play in tournaments outside of our club and I can't escape the issue and it's real affects on matches that are often more than just an after work pass time.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by patrickhrdlicka patrickhrdlicka wrote:

"It's only an illegal serve if the umpire calls it an illegal serve. The implication was that you should push it to the limit and only when you find what you're umpires limit is, should you push it no more.  If you can get away with "foul" serving, so be it - and watching the pro's that seems to be a common approach."

The problem in a nutshell. 

Yes.  And if there's no umpire ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

I get its hard to read spin when it is hidden….
But honestly i have never played anyone with a really good toss-less serve… can someone explain to me what the advantage is with no toss?? 

I think one potential advantage is in quick-serving the opponent.  This is particularly effective if you toss in the low toss only occasionally.  

Another is that the low toss is often accompanies by a backward toss.  Which can have spin generation advantage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 6:53pm
BTW, I really like the use of three cameras in the video posted.  It makes the match easier and more enjoyable to watch.  Good job!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by pathfinderpro pathfinderpro wrote:



Sometimes you can't win, and a quieter life is easier, especially at amateur level.  Not saying that's right, just that it's less confrontational.
 

Exactly.  And this is why I know longer make an issue of serves when playing in our club. But I am a club umpire and I do play in tournaments outside of our club and I can't escape the issue and it's real affects on matches that are often more than just an after work pass time.



Yep.  My thoughts too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote j-bo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2015 at 9:41pm
On going issue at our club also.

We have a USATT umpire and there are a few of us that continually are trying to get people to go by the rules, which is the only argument here. It's the rules and I'm of the opinion, if you are going to bend/break one rule, you can do it for any rule.

We have players in the 1800's that KNOW they are breaking the service rule, and will only change when playing one of us that insist they do. Why can't they always serve within the rules then? I don't get that.

Anyway....we continue to argue about it with the hopes that most will start to "get it" and it has helped for the most part, especially with the newer players.

So.. if people know about the rule, it would be much simpler to follow it. Sure, there doesn't have to be a "gestapo" effort in making people do it though, as we are trying to have fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2015 at 3:53am
SPITTING INTO THE FACE.

Once you respect the service rules, you respect your playmate,   and vice versa.
    Neglegance of the service rules is much like a muddy spittle into your friend's face.
    KEEP UP THE GAME UNSPOTTED PLEASE!!!

This is the eyecatching motto needed IN BOLD LETTERS onto the frontwall in every table tennis club worldwide. Yes.



   

Edited by igorponger - 02/19/2015 at 3:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2015 at 5:28am
My return options are a lot limited when I can't see the serve contact. There's just not enough time because you are just trying to read the spin and not think about where to place the ball and which stroke do you want to use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2017 at 3:57am

Guy in black shorts - low toss Bh serve - if you throw the ball up 6" it is definitely harder to be consistent with that speed. It also gives the receiver a better look and more reaction time. An unfair advantage to server.
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