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red rubbers vs black rubbers durability ?

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manraid View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07/22/2016 at 2:45pm
i noticed especially in esn rubbers (EL-P, MX-P,M1,.....)that red rubbers deteriorate faster than black rubbers and i experienced this with 4 new sheets of tibhar evolution el-p and mx-p

i glued the black mx-p and the red mx-p of the same thickness (max) on the same time on my blade and after one month the red mx-p rubber becomes completely gripless and dead however the black mx-p continue playind very fine for about 3 and half month

i experienced this twice

did anyone experience this huge difference in red vs black rubber durability issue as mine or it is just a bad sheet ?



thanks in advance
MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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vanjr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 3:03pm
I see you play black on both sides as per your signature? I wonder if red is what you use on your FH? I have not found a difference in rubber durability based on color. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 3:10pm
Yes, there is a discernible difference between red and black when it comes durability, despite what manufacturers claim.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adishorul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 3:15pm
I also found some differences between red and black but mainly in the way of how they are playing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manraid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I see you play black on both sides as per your signature? I wonder if red is what you use on your FH? I have not found a difference in rubber durability based on color. 


very good notice

i have a red rubber fear syndrome Tongue

4 red new sheets deteriorate in the same manner

that 's why i swear not to play with red rubber ever again


i played twice  with the red rubbers on both  my backhand  and forehand  in order to notice the durability and exclude any other factors  and in both situation the 4 sheets deteriorate very very very soon as compared to the black rubbers






Edited by manraid - 07/22/2016 at 3:49pm
MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by manraid manraid wrote:

i noticed especially in esn rubbers (EL-P, MX-P,M1,.....)that red rubbers deteriorate faster than black rubbers and i experienced this with 4 new sheets of tibhar evolution el-p and mx-p

i glued the black mx-p and the red mx-p of the same thickness (max) on the same time on my blade and after one month the red mx-p rubber becomes completely gripless and dead however the black mx-p continue playind very fine for about 3 and half month

i experienced this twice

did anyone experience this huge difference in red vs black rubber durability issue as mine or it is just a bad sheet ?

thanks in advance

 
Black rubber lasting longer is plausible since black rubber typically use some kind of carbon black for their coloring.  Carbon black (of different grain sizes no doubt) is used in car tires to increase durability.  That's why car tires are black and not other colors. That said, since they don't formulate TT rubber with high mileage in mind they certainly probably aren't aiming at using carbon black for purposes other than color.  So the effect is probably not great with most rubbers.
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manraid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 3:50pm
i have read somewhere that the reason of low durability of red rubbers is contributed to the dye in it
MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 4:10pm
Red rubber is less durable due most likely to the silica filler(an alternative to carbon black).  It is known to reduce durability.

Quote A decade ago engineers discovered that rolling resistance could be reduced by replacing carbon black with silica, the basic component of ordinary beach sand. At first silica seemed to be the magic elixir tire engineers longed for, but they soon realized it too offered no free ride: its lower rolling resistance came at the expense of lower durability, decreased traction in wet weather, higher cost, and a more complicated manufacturing process. So silica quickly went back to the beach, and the engineers and chemists went back to their drawing boards and mixing pots.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 4:29pm
I've noticed that with my MXPs too. I use black on FH and red always goes first in terms of grip.
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g
FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm
USATT: 1725
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manraid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 4:57pm
by the way i read on table tennis db on hurricane 3 neo reviews that red hurricane rubbers deteriorate faster than black rubbers and it isn't exculsively in euro\jap rubbers


MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by manraid manraid wrote:

i have read somewhere that the reason of low durability of red rubbers is contributed to the dye in it

I don't think it is the presence of dye so much as it is the absence of carbon black.  BTW, some rubbers (such as Butterfly Orthodox) use other fillers (clay?) and have an opaque look to them.  These fillers may also be used to color the rubber and could affect the rubber's durability. Most inverted rubbers, however, seem to get their color from dyes and are transparent/translucent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 5:29pm
I use red on the forehand and my red rubbers lose grip faster for that reason. The same used to happen when I used black on the forehand side (black used to go first). I have never felt the rubbers play differently or lasted over different time periods and I think some people are just too consumed with aesthetics. But it is quite possible that I am biased and wrong.

Edited by NextLevel - 07/22/2016 at 5:32pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manraid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 5:34pm
i used my backhand more than my forehand and my backhand black rubbers lasts longer than my forehand red rubbers for 4 times , coincidence?


Edited by manraid - 07/22/2016 at 5:34pm
MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

I use red on the forehand and my red rubbers lose grip faster for that reason. The same used to happen when I used black on the forehand side (black used to go first). I have never felt the rubbers play differently or lasted over different time periods and I think some people are just too consumed with aesthetics. But it is quite possible that I am biased and wrong.

I think that if there are differences that they are subtle.  So it would be easy to amplify them in our imaginations or to completely miss real differences.  It also probably varies depending on the rubber.
Jay Turberville
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by manraid manraid wrote:

i used my backhand more than my forehand and my backhand black rubbers lasts longer than my forehand red rubbers for 4 times , coincidence?



Sure. But again, it is very different if you are focused on aesthetics vs. Spin. To me,a rubber wearing out means I killed the topsheet until I see the pimples underneath. It doesn't mean the topsheet looks old or feels smoother or has dried out. It takes me the same amount of time to kill both red and black topsheets.

I guess also having a coach who could generate decent spin with a dead topsheet changes your focus and priorities as well. But I guess you could share pictures and change your mind.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manraid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 6:16pm
when my 4 red rubber sheets was weared i took them to my coach and he was convinced that i left them in my car in sun which wasnot happened (from the degree of deterioration he couldn't imagine that my rubbers wears so quickly in that shape ) and he gave my rubbers to 2 of his highly ranked players and all of their shots went into net

the condition of my rubbers were  very bad to the degree that he thought finally i put something like aceton or other things that damaged my rubber which in fact don't happen

not one sheet or two but four

by the way rubber to be weared to me mean= rubber has no grip to make topspin and could barely do drive with one shot pass over the net out of 5 shots





Edited by manraid - 07/22/2016 at 6:17pm
MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 9:55pm
I have not had a rubber wearing out on me to the degree that I can't make a to spin shot with it in less than 2 months. You probably need to learn better rubber care.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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FH/BH: H3P 41D.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manraid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 10:48pm
i do care my rubber very well and if i consider my careless manner to the red rubber how about my black rubbers

careless manner(if found ) is a fixed factor applied to both rubbers either red or black why black last longer than black

i don't argue to prove my point is correct or other opinion are bad  i do agree with some aspects of your opinion

but i really wonder because what happened happened to 4 red rubber sheets

and i think some members accept my point here and noticed what i found

may be it is coincidence (which i found in best condition to be extremely extremely rare )


MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by manraid manraid wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I see you play black on both sides as per your signature? I wonder if red is what you use on your FH? I have not found a difference in rubber durability based on color. 


very good notice

i have a red rubber fear syndrome Tongue

4 red new sheets deteriorate in the same manner

that 's why i swear not to play with red rubber ever again


i played twice  with the red rubbers on both  my backhand  and forehand  in order to notice the durability and exclude any other factors  and in both situation the 4 sheets deteriorate very very very soon as compared to the black rubbers

... this is highly unusual...
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2016 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

I use red on the forehand and my red rubbers lose grip faster for that reason. The same used to happen when I used black on the forehand side (black used to go first). I have never felt the rubbers play differently or lasted over different time periods and I think some people are just too consumed with aesthetics. But it is quite possible that I am biased and wrong.

I think that if there are differences that they are subtle.  So it would be easy to amplify them in our imaginations or to completely miss real differences.  It also probably varies depending on the rubber.
Yes. BTW, this thread is about "durability", however some differences may exist between how a red sheet plays vs how a black one does. I have noticed that for Hammond Pro Beta in 2.1 mm, where black sheet was very playable while the red one was harder and had a less grippy topsheet. Both were purchased at the same time, but both looked like they had spent some time on shelf at the vendor before I got them. 
It might just be a different way to experience a durability problem; it seems unlikely the sheets were that different when still fresh.
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2016 at 11:22am
I've also noticed something else with my black and red MXP's when boosting them with FTL. My black sheets always have a little bit more "tension" and take a bit longer for the dome to go down compared to the red.

Not related, but just an observation. Can't tell any difference during play after boosting between the two but im sure if its there its very very veeeeery minor. 


Edited by DreiZ - 07/23/2016 at 11:32am
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FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm
USATT: 1725
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manraid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2016 at 11:39am
during play there is no difference between red and black except for the red being somehow alittle bit softer in fell compared to the black which is firm alittle   ,the issue is the red rubber durability i noticed in 4 sheets is very low compared to the black rubber.
MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2016 at 2:14pm
Since you HAVE to play with one side of red (unless you go j/k penhold with paint sheet) you are up "paint sheet" creek right? Better pick you red poison and put it on your less used side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2016 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Since you HAVE to play with one side of red (unless you go j/k penhold with paint sheet) you are up "paint sheet" creek right? Better pick you red poison and put it on your less used side.

I think the fact that he is using black on both sides is fine as he clearly plays for fun.  As long as people are upfront about their level and investment into the sport when saying these things and doing these things, I would take it for what it is.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manraid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2016 at 5:19pm
i don't have to play with one side red and as next level stated that i plays for fun however i play this sport because i respect it alot and table tennis is not just a sport for me it is also a therapy ( since i undergo a diet regime  from 160 Kg to 100 kg and thanks for table tennis for making me preserve my weight at that level otherwise if i didnot practice it for a week u can say i can gain about 5 Kg at least per week )

sorry for getting away from the post title but it is something i must say


thanks for everybody opinion
MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2016 at 5:47pm
Hopefully the new discipline of table tennis to be introduced this August will put this "colorism" to rest.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manraid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2016 at 6:03pm
i hope so zeio , we need some democracy in this game Tongue
MJ SZLC ST

FH Hurricane 8 2.15m Black
BH Super 999t 2.2mm Red


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