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Walk before I run?

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el luchador View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11/16/2016 at 11:52am
I don't get much training and dont have a robot so I decided to pay a much better player than me for two hours of multiball a week.

Im about a 1200-1300 player and I struggle with attacking pushes and underspin balls so I was going to work on that,

BUT another player who is much better than me and I highly respect said I need to just work on counter hitting- that it would fix my loops, blocks, everything.

What say you guys?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 12:07pm
Go for the multiball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 1:59pm
Not an either/or.  You can do both, certainly if you are 1200-1300. 

Counters are good because they are very easy shots with which you can learn to get good weight transfer and stroke stability, but you have to make sure you are not just standing there or they can be kind of counterproductive.  At your level, you need to be able to do that.  With that said, there is surprisingly little forehand to forehand countering that happens in points.  But it will help -- some -- with more than one aspect of your game.  But as the only training method from which all else follows?  No.  That is absurd.  I have seen many high level coaches teach players at all levels.  Not one has ever done that.

Multiball will let you focus on a wider variety of shots, including underspin.  The person delivering balls can also control how much you have to move, can give various patterns, etc.  Delivering good multiballs is not as easy as it looks.  The value of the training can depend on how good the person is at delivering balls (not always directly related to how well they play). 

Two hours is a pretty long practice session if you work hard and concentrate the whole time.  Good multiball drilling, the kind that forces you to move some, will tire you out long before that.    So start with come counters to warm up, and then go on to other things. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 4:21pm
Multiball is good for every level, but are you planning on doing 2 hours straight?Is there a possibility to split the 2 hours?If he's a member from your club and often at your club, then you might want to consider doing 30-60 min sessions depending on the intensity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 4:23pm
Find another player with similar interest.  Then you two guys can take turns (let's say 10 minutes each time) to feed the balls to practice.  It saves money.

And also both of you can try to improve ball-feedings (top spin, backspin, no spin, fast ball, landing on different places) beside learning how to attack.

*** Paying a good coach is probably a better approach, but it will cost you money.


Edited by skip3119 - 11/16/2016 at 4:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 6:43pm
Have confidence in your knowledge of your game. You know you have trouble looping underspin, and you are paying, so work on that.

The thing about fixing every stroke by hitting I would ignore. Lots of good players give lots of advice you sbould ignore.

Edited by BRS - 11/16/2016 at 6:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2016 at 5:50pm
I agree with the better player here. A good counter hit will teach you how to adapt to incoming balls, how to control spin/speed, and drill in correct stroke and stroke recovery mechanics which will transfer heavily to your loops later on. 

If a player has a good counterhit, learning how to transfer that to attacking underspin is relatively easy. It's just an adjustment to the stroke and blade angle. However, if you have a bad counterhit then most likely your form isn't going to be great, and even if you can loop underspin, most likely you aren't going to be consistent and you're probably going to miss the next ball. 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2016 at 6:10pm
I would recommend that you learn the "roll" (basically a counter with a very open bat angle) to make the transition from countering to attacking underspin balls. The idea is that no matter how heavy the underspin is, it can always be lifted above the net as long as you lift it enough. So technically a counter stroke would still work as long as your bat angle is open enough. Ask your partner to serve you underspin balls, then you can use your countering stroke with an open bat angle to guide it consistently to the other side of the table. Don't try to spin it hard or force anything, relax and just focus on consistency and control in terms of "lifting" the ball to the other side of the table. It's kinda similar to the fishing stroke. 

Once you get the hang of it, you'll slowly be able to close your bat angle and increasingly hit/spin it harder, until you would get to the point where you realize that you can actually drive underspin balls easily, just like topspin. Add a bit more spin, and it becomes a drive-loop, or if you take it later, a slow loop. 

If you start with looping first without a good counter, you would make the same mistake as many beginners who learn the slow loop first. I can identify players like this easily and they're easy game. They always wait till the ball drops almost to the ground before looping it and think it is the only way to attack underspin. Waiting so long just means that they're going to push themselves away from the table, lose their balance, and cannot recover to attack the next block hard. So I just serve/push deep to some awkward spot, watch them lose their balance and then block it into the other corner for easy points.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2016 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I agree with the better player here. A good counter hit will teach you how to adapt to incoming balls, how to control spin/speed, and drill in correct stroke and stroke recovery mechanics which will transfer heavily to your loops later on. 

If a player has a good counterhit, learning how to transfer that to attacking underspin is relatively easy. It's just an adjustment to the stroke and blade angle. However, if you have a bad counterhit then most likely your form isn't going to be great, and even if you can loop underspin, most likely you aren't going to be consistent and you're probably going to miss the next ball. 

 


I had a technically incorrect counterhit and I was a 2000 level player.  BH Man will tell you the same thing about himself.  We both loop underspin pretty well.  I provide myself and BH Man as evidence that this is nonsense, and that you can have good rally strokes and technically bad counterhitting skills.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2016 at 4:20am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I agree with the better player here. A good counter hit will teach you how to adapt to incoming balls, how to control spin/speed, and drill in correct stroke and stroke recovery mechanics which will transfer heavily to your loops later on. 

If a player has a good counterhit, learning how to transfer that to attacking underspin is relatively easy. It's just an adjustment to the stroke and blade angle. However, if you have a bad counterhit then most likely your form isn't going to be great, and even if you can loop underspin, most likely you aren't going to be consistent and you're probably going to miss the next ball. 

 


I had a technically incorrect counterhit and I was a 2000 level player.  BH Man will tell you the same thing about himself.  We both loop underspin pretty well.  I provide myself and BH Man as evidence that this is nonsense, and that you can have good rally strokes and technically bad counterhitting skills.

I'm sure yours and BH-man's counterhits can't be considered "bad", from both of your videos already. At the very least, you would have good control over the racket angle, hit/spin ratios, and have some degree of weight transfer and core rotation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2016 at 5:14am
The reason that you should improve your counterhit stroke is that the counterhit is part of the basics, which is always the most important part of every sport. People simply don't realize how difficult looping is. Yes, it's okay to start looping before getting your counterhit good, and it's possible to loop okay without a good counterhit, but you will never have a good loop if your counterhit is bad.  And the reason is simple: spin is the most difficult aspect of table tennis. When counter hitting, the ball does not carry much spin, which makes it a lot easier to adjust accordingly to each ball that comes at you. Also, many people don't realize that practicing counter hitting is a great way to develop hand-feeling for the ball. A huge, but common mistake (perhaps the most common looping mistake out there other than footwork) is to loop the ball too thinly. By getting your counterhit good, you learn to sink the ball into the sponge before brushing, which is super super important, and will greatly improve your consistency and accuracy.
My recommendation would be to practice both at the same time, since you don't get much training. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2016 at 5:44am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I agree with the better player here. A good counter hit will teach you how to adapt to incoming balls, how to control spin/speed, and drill in correct stroke and stroke recovery mechanics which will transfer heavily to your loops later on. 

If a player has a good counterhit, learning how to transfer that to attacking underspin is relatively easy. It's just an adjustment to the stroke and blade angle. However, if you have a bad counterhit then most likely your form isn't going to be great, and even if you can loop underspin, most likely you aren't going to be consistent and you're probably going to miss the next ball. 

 


I had a technically incorrect counterhit and I was a 2000 level player.  BH Man will tell you the same thing about himself.  We both loop underspin pretty well.  I provide myself and BH Man as evidence that this is nonsense, and that you can have good rally strokes and technically bad counterhitting skills.

I'm sure yours and BH-man's counterhits can't be considered "bad", from both of your videos already. At the very least, you would have good control over the racket angle, hit/spin ratios, and have some degree of weight transfer and core rotation. 

Those things improve with proper practice on just about any stroke.  My point is not that counterhitting is not a good thing to learn, but that the idea that you should just practice it to fix all your strokes is nonsense.  You get better at counterhitting by counterhitting, and you get better at looping by looping.  The one thing I got better at doing by counterhitting was flat blocking, but a loop is a loop and my topspin block improved with my ability to counterloop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2016 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

The reason that you should improve your counterhit stroke is that the counterhit is part of the basics, which is always the most important part of every sport. People simply don't realize how difficult looping is. Yes, it's okay to start looping before getting your counterhit good, and it's possible to loop okay without a good counterhit, but you will never have a good loop if your counterhit is bad.  And the reason is simple: spin is the most difficult aspect of table tennis. When counter hitting, the ball does not carry much spin, which makes it a lot easier to adjust accordingly to each ball that comes at you. Also, many people don't realize that practicing counter hitting is a great way to develop hand-feeling for the ball. A huge, but common mistake (perhaps the most common looping mistake out there other than footwork) is to loop the ball too thinly. By getting your counterhit good, you learn to sink the ball into the sponge before brushing, which is super super important, and will greatly improve your consistency and accuracy.
My recommendation would be to practice both at the same time, since you don't get much training. 


 
I worked with a player recently whose loop was strong but who could not counterhit properly to save his life and had major blocking issues as a result.  "Good" is a relative term, but his loop was extremely powerful, whatever technical issues one would have with it depending on one's view of what a loop should be like.

You get better at what you work on.  It's that simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2016 at 1:41pm
Just counterhitting isn't going to help with looping or attacking vs underspin, one needs to train those to improve and have an attacking opportunistic mind to be ready to attack given the chance.

I go along with NL's comments about my counterhitting, I dont do it that much, I DO block a lot, but for me to move up anoother level, I will need to train counterlooping off the bounce instead of relying on my good blocking. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2016 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

You get better at what you work on.  It's that simple.


Yep.  And that is simple and true. 

And while there are a few things that transfer from one shot to another, each shot has to be worked on separately.  The idea that you can just train counters and all this other stuff magically will come from that is mistaken, which is why I've never seen a professional coach train anyone that way. 

I mentioned far up thread that a 2-hr training session gives you time to work on quite a few things.  But I forgot to point out that you have to change stuff up periodically within the practice just to keep your mind focused.  This is true at all levels of the sport.

So getting back to my original comment, none of this is either/or stuff. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2016 at 9:50pm
A lot of very interesting discussion in this thread. I'm looking forward to seeing what others have to add. Personally, I think both sides of the argument hold a lot of truth. Maybe a lot of it comes down to what is idealistic and what is realistic.

Personally, I think the notion that having a good counterhit will magically make everything else work is a bit optimistic, but I can see where the idea is coming from. I think better worded would be "having a good counterhit will provide you with a great foundation to develop most your other strokes, such as the loop."

For the OP, I think if table tennis is a long time investment, and you're seriously thinking about improving to be competitive, spending more time improving your counterhits first is a good idea. That said, to be able to see more short term improvement (and this does not necessarily mean that you will suffer greatly in the long term), practicing loops now will of course, improve your ability to loop.

I suspect the strong opinion of having a technically sound counterhit first as a necessary basis for other strokes applies more to the way children (in Asia) are taught in a serious practice environment (as per my experience in Japan, and my perception of how they do things in China).

From my personal experience as someone who started playing as an adult, I actually regret not spending more time working on my foundation and counterhits early on because now I have a lot of bad habits, such as lacking weight transfer and body rotation, not tracking the ball well, and hitting the ball late in its trajectory. I think if I spent more time working on those while learning to counterhit, I would be able to carry those skills over better when looping. That said, when all of that mattered 2 years ago, I didn't know any better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/26/2016 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

A lot of very interesting discussion in this thread. I'm looking forward to seeing what others have to add. Personally, I think both sides of the argument hold a lot of truth. Maybe a lot of it comes down to what is idealistic and what is realistic.

Personally, I think the notion that having a good counterhit will magically make everything else work is a bit optimistic, but I can see where the idea is coming from. I think better worded would be "having a good counterhit will provide you with a great foundation to develop most your other strokes, such as the loop."

For the OP, I think if table tennis is a long time investment, and you're seriously thinking about improving to be competitive, spending more time improving your counterhits first is a good idea. That said, to be able to see more short term improvement (and this does not necessarily mean that you will suffer greatly in the long term), practicing loops now will of course, improve your ability to loop.

I suspect the strong opinion of having a technically sound counterhit first as a necessary basis for other strokes applies more to the way children (in Asia) are taught in a serious practice environment (as per my experience in Japan, and my perception of how they do things in China).

From my personal experience as someone who started playing as an adult, I actually regret not spending more time working on my foundation and counterhits early on because now I have a lot of bad habits, such as lacking weight transfer and body rotation, not tracking the ball well, and hitting the ball late in its trajectory. I think if I spent more time working on those while learning to counterhit, I would be able to carry those skills over better when looping. That said, when all of that mattered 2 years ago, I didn't know any better.

I agree with this. My point was that practicing a full blown loop before one is sufficiently proficient at counterhitting would ultimately prove to be the long way (instead of the shortcut), since it is quite easy to develop bad habits that are hard to fix later on such as hitting the ball late, not enough forward momentum and poor weight transfer/body rotation. It's much easier to develop these fundamentals using the basic counterhit, then start using transition strokes (such as opening the bat and lifting) to manage the transition between counter hitting and looping, which was detailed in my previous post. It is surprisingly consistent and deals with underspin pushes fairly well. Coupled with a good counterhit basics, you will simply be able to convert most balls into a topspin rally which you would win most of the time just based on consistency and placement. Once you've got the basics of power generation and control (forearm snap, blade angle, timing, weight transfer, body rotation), you have the foundations to develop a relaxed, powerful and consistent loop.
 



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