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Giving up on 2000

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    Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:23pm
Guess it is time to finally get real and give up on my quest to reach a USATT 2000 rating. I had some big plans for getting in serious training this winter to really improve my game. Things are just not working out the way I planned. Access to the club from my campground is more difficult and time limiting than I thought it would be. Getting lessons was foiled because the weeks I was in town turned out to be weeks the coach was out of town. Scheduling and the need to be in certain locations for business matters further reduced the days I am in locations where I can get serious training. Even when I do get to the clubs, I can not get into a serious training session. I end up playing matches with choppers, lobbers, and retrievers where I just can not get the type of practice I really wanted to focus on. I just have not been able to figure out how to train in the club environments I have available. There are players who train but I can not seem to get in with them. Some are just so much better that I have little to offer and others already have 1 or 2 training partners they like to use.

I think I need to quit trying to get better through formal training and just go out and play for fun. Probably need to play less often, but more intensively when I do play. Also I think I will spend more time on my physical conditioning with more paddling and hiking instead of TT.

Hate to give up on a goal, but sometimes you just need to be realistic. Better to have fun than constantly be unhappy about my lack of improvement. Maybe I should get an easier goal like playing in every TT club in US.

Mark - 1800 then, 1800 now, 1800 for forseeable future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:37pm
Keep the goal and give up on being unhappy about it.  You're still young enough to make it.  I'm 74 and still have that as my goal.  My goals don't have to be realistic, just fun.  Come west and play and make your goal, staying above 1500.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:52pm
I am with you brother, I eructed a rant about this lately, I stopped going to a club for that reason, so much time wasted in matches I don't even want to play, the rest are idiotic conversations that I need to patiently listen to while my turn is not up yet. I am not even counting the fact that with that many different cultures in a club, the politically correctness that comes as a side effect reaches annoying levels where there is not much more we can say other than "Ping pong is good for exercise! (insert a thumb up and a big smile here)" without taking the risk to hurt somebody's feelings.

I recognize it's because of me though. Since I see many training partners getting together all the time, I don't see why I wouldn't be able to do the same but the fact is I can't, I am working on it though.

Did you try to find somebody who can feed balls so you would feed them balls as well? that could help you finding plenty of people better than you who would be happy to train with you in those conditions. like 1/2 hour, one 100 balls bucket at a time, changing when the bucket is empty.

I am writing 1/2 hour only because it's the minimum time to make it useful and it's not long enough to make people afraid of investing too much time in a trial training session with you. 1/2 hour is better because they'll think "after all, if it's a nightmare it won't last that long!" in case they have apprehensions for any reason (like those who could think that you are too young for them for example). 

When they don't want to stop after 1/2 hour you'll feel so good about yourself and life in general! it is worth pursuing your goal.

Again I feel for you, being that much dedicated and not being rewarded with people looking forward to training with you must be highly frustrating. I guess you can still come back to Seattle and train with me in my basement twice a week for a 2-hour session; I have enough balls (3-star yinhe seamless x120+) and you'll go to spttc or green lake to wrap your weekly time up.

Time to move to Seattle sir, let's break 2k together, no joking! Clap

Put it this way: maybe you are my last chance to make it and maybe I am yours too LOL


Edited by fatt - 01/21/2019 at 3:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 4:07pm
Don't give up. If it is not working out you need to change something. Try to improve by working on other things. Work on your footwork and serves. Learn tactics and watch a lot of people play. That way you'll know where they will more likely play. There are ways for you to reach 2000. It's not that far away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I am with you brother, I eructed a rant about this lately, I stopped going to a club for that reason, so much time wasted in matches I don't even want to play, the rest are idiotic conversations that I need to patiently listen to while my turn is not up yet. I am not even counting the fact that with that many different cultures in a club, the politically correctness that comes as a side effect reaches annoying levels where there is not much more we can say other than "Ping pong is good for exercise! (insert a thumb up and a big smile here)" without taking the risk to hurt somebody's feelings.

I recognize it's because of me though. Since I see many training partners getting together all the time, I don't see why I wouldn't be able to do the same but the fact is I can't, I am working on it though.

Did you try to find somebody who can feed balls so you would feed them balls as well? that could help you finding plenty of people better than you who would be happy to train with you in those conditions. like 1/2 hour, one 100 balls bucket at a time, changing when the bucket is empty.

I am writing 1/2 hour only because it's the minimum time to make it useful and it's not long enough to make people afraid of investing too much time in a trial training session with you. 1/2 hour is better because they'll think "after all, if it's a nightmare it won't last that long!" in case they have apprehensions for any reason (like those who could think that you are too young for them for example). 

When they don't want to stop after 1/2 hour you'll feel so good about yourself and life in general! it is worth pursuing your goal.

Again I feel for you, being that much dedicated and not being rewarded with people looking forward to training with you must be highly frustrating. I guess you can still come back to Seattle and train with me in my basement twice a week for a 2-hour session; I have enough balls (3-star yinhe seamless x120+) and you'll go to spttc or green lake to wrap your weekly time up.

Time to move to Seattle sir, let's break 2k together, no joking! Clap

Put it this way: maybe you are my last chance to make it and maybe I am yours too LOL

I always thought if I had had a robot in my house I would have been a much better player than I am.
even when I go to a club if I see a robot I always try to play the robot LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 4:47pm
I agree with you on your short phrase:  "just go out and play for fun."

That's what I have been doing to get the exercise I need and keep good health.

Please listen to the majority, nobody agrees with me anyway. (Pay no attention to my BS.)




Edited by skip3119 - 01/21/2019 at 5:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danseemiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 5:00pm
Whenever you focus on ratings you are in trouble. Trying to reach a certain # will be in your head every match you play. This is a distraction and will hold you back from performing your best.
Control everything you can,practice, play hard, have fun and someday you will look up and there it will be.
mjamja-- 2050!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 5:26pm
When you play matches you do not need to focus on winning, and can focus on become better at something. 

Multiball can also be an option, then you can play with players from different levels. 

I am a part time coach for Kids and i am proably going start an training group for adults since alot of adults have your problem. Maybe you can talk to your club about starting an adult group. I can imagine many would be interested and the club could bring in some more money that way. 

Edit: forget to mention. At your level or at any level serves is very important. You can work on your serves alone and win alot alot of matches on that. 


Edited by Lula - 01/21/2019 at 5:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 5:34pm
Ratings are in some peoples minds the be all and end all of table tennis.  They are in my opinion BS to some extent.  Some people get readjusted, some don't and it is very arbitrary.  I think the semi-finalist of the US Open women's event ended up getting an initial rating of 1600 and won 400 points with a final rating of 2100.  Eventually this was corrected.  In this year's US Open a male player went 7-1 losing to someone 2700ish and beating people over 2600 and was given an initial rating of 2300 or something.  The women's under 21 winner went in underrated at 2500, scored over 50 points and wasn't adjusted.  Why? Who decides this?

Personally in the past, I lost to two players who just dumped 250 points to enter events I was in to win prize money.  Should that count in my rating calculation? It does and nothing can be done about it.  I also once beat a guy 350 points above me, was not readjusted, asked why not and then was readjusted, then after years of inactivity I was readjusted down. 

Fair or unfair, the moral of the story is rating is a very relative thing and not exactly fair because of the readjustment process.  Just play.  Pick some specific tournaments or events to try to win and do your best and have fun.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

When you play matches you do not need to focus on winning, and can focus on become better at something. 

Multiball can also be an option, then you can play with players from different levels. 

I am a part time coach for Kids and i am proably going start an training group for adults since alot of adults have your problem. Maybe you can talk to your club about starting an adult group. I can imagine many would be interested and the club could bring in some more money that way. 
THIS!
the same way kids quit when there are no other kids around -because kids like to play kids-, adults age training groups is a must to happen. Over 30, over 45, over 60 etc... is the way to go. Just like kids, adults like to hang out among people with whom they can socialize with fewer barriers and share more common ideas.
After all, why not mimicking what happens in tournament events? don't we have o30, o50 etc...age groups? it would be only logical to recreate that in training as well for those who join those events.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 5:37pm
Play hard definitely but enjoy playing and training hard if that makes sense. If you enjoy the task and the journey where ever you end up at least the trip was good. Pressure will cramp you which creates a bigger wall than the rating one to break past.

All a bit zen that but hope you get the drift 👍
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Ratings are in some peoples minds the be all and end all of table tennis.  They are in my opinion BS to some extent.  Some people get readjusted, some don't and it is very arbitrary.  I think the semi-finalist of the US Open women's event ended up getting an initial rating of 1600 and won 400 points with a final rating of 2100.  Eventually this was corrected.  In this year's US Open a male player went 7-1 losing to someone 2700ish and beating people over 2600 and was given an initial rating of 2300 or something.  The women's under 21 winner went in underrated at 2500, scored over 50 points and wasn't adjusted.  Why? Who decides this?

Personally in the past, I lost to two players who just dumped 250 points to enter events I was in to win prize money.  Should that count in my rating calculation? It does and nothing can be done about it.  I also once beat a guy 350 points above me, was not readjusted, asked why not and then was readjusted, then after years of inactivity I was readjusted down. 

Fair or unfair, the moral of the story is rating is a very relative thing and not exactly fair because of the readjustment process.  Just play.  Pick some specific tournaments or events to try to win and do your best and have fun.   
There is no rating formula for a downward rating adjust in the USATT rating system. Player(s) rating can only be adjusted up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 5:51pm
They just took the points away and my rating was set back to the initial post tournament rating sans adjustment.  That is what I mean when I say I was adjusted up and then adjusted down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

They just took the points away and my rating was set back to the initial post tournament rating sans adjustment.  That is what I mean when I say I was adjusted up and then adjusted down.

Sounds like a bug, or a bug fix, or something similar that has nothing to do with actual formula/algo. Does not matter in the long run, I think.

To 'mjamja': I was going to say something along the lines of advice from 'danseemiller', but he beat me to it Big smile. May be a secret of reaching a certain level is to stop thinking about it (very zen, I know...) and just enjoy the game. I'm getting to this point of view lately as well.

Sometimes I also tell myself that I already reached 2000 a couple of times (in the league) - which is sort of true. Which then gets us into debate of "what does it mean to reach 2000": you crossed the threshold  once, you did it without adjustments, you were able to hold it for N tournaments (N>1), etc.?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

When you play matches you do not need to focus on winning, and can focus on become better at something. 

Multiball can also be an option, then you can play with players from different levels. 

I am a part time coach for Kids and i am proably going start an training group for adults since alot of adults have your problem. Maybe you can talk to your club about starting an adult group. I can imagine many would be interested and the club could bring in some more money that way. 
THIS!
the same way kids quit when there are no other kids around -because kids like to play kids-, adults age training groups is a must to happen. Over 30, over 45, over 60 etc... is the way to go. Just like kids, adults like to hang out among people with whom they can socialize with fewer barriers and share more common ideas.
After all, why not mimicking what happens in tournament events? don't we have o30, o50 etc...age groups? it would be only logical to recreate that in training as well for those who join those events.


I have talked to some people if they are interested in this, and it seems to be alot of interest for organised training with a coach. I do think it is the same for other places. As a coach i think it will be more fun to coach adults since i think they value their time more so they are very interested if they go down and practice and i also think they will listen better. I can imagine more coaches will find this funny. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 6:18pm
The UK doesn't even have a rating system! Until you get to a certain level everyone just talks about what division they play in with what win rate. It's only once you get to the top 500 or so players where the ranking comes in that anyone cares.

Giving up on 2000 Vs having it as your goal, how does this affect your TT? Nada! It makes no difference. So go out and have fun playing. When you hit 2000 you'll just want to hit 2100 anyway and so be no closer to your goals. Make your goal continual improvement and have fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 7:20pm
Get a job at the Univ Idaho and join our club. We are big enough to matter and small enough to care. 
Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69419&title=feedback-patrickhrdlicka

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The rating scale is a set of arbitrary numbers. As others have said, have fun, enjoy table tennis, stop chasing ratings.

You are likely 2000 in Canadian ratings, since their scale is bigger with Eugene Wang having a rating over 4000. You have to be a top 50 player to be over 3000. Are Canadians obsessed with breaking XXXX?

Just call yourself Mark "A Canada 2000"



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Come west and play and make your goal, staying above 1500.


We're still doing this? :/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't give up. If it is not working out you need to change something. Try to improve by working on other things. Work on your footwork and serves. Learn tactics and watch a lot of people play. That way you'll know where they will more likely play. There are ways for you to reach 2000. It's not that far away.


Seconding this - a different approach given the parameters you have may work. There are people who have improved their game under less than ideal training circumstances - of course, its probably a more rare case, but it can happen if you are creative and flexible with what you've got. Getting from 1800 to 2000 is much harder than any 200 point increase prior to that point, so patience and really broadening your idea of where you can make improvements is key.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 12:08am
Having watched Mark I can say it is DEFINATELY possible for him to make USATT 2000 level... but it is gunna take some big improvement in enough of the areas he needs to be higher level.

For what is within his inclination and instinct, I think if mark can get 2 levels better at these... he will be 2000 West Coast USATT and kick some tail vs higher than 2000 rated players on East Coast.

Serve - this is the single-most possible to improve by two levels area available. Won't go into how, just ID the easy money.

Receive - This is also possible vs lower rated players if the matches are played with a certain purpose and occasionally if someone is willing 5-10 minutes at a time. A 2150-2200 level player and I are really sharpening each other in this area and others... whether it is match play or the in between time to work this.

Placement - Mark already has ability to place, but if he can find the middle more consistently... look out.

Adaptive match tactics

I am purposely leaving out a lot of other areas. he can reach this level without a monster heavy topspin or a counter loop.

When I started as a rec player and did tourneys, I was wowed by the 1700-1800 crowd and would have been happy to be that level... once I got that level, it wasn't enough... even 1900+ level I know I have room to improve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 5:19am
I almost wish there was a way to not know my rating, maybe only get a yearly update.
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Create non rating point goals. After every match, especially the close ones, there's always something you wish you could've done better - no one pitches a perfect game. I've made short term goals for myself such as attack long serves with more authority, push or block with smarter placement when the attack is not there, or reset quicker to prepare for a return. All were inspired by previous performances whether in a tournament or in a practice match and to be carried out in my next match. My current goal, btw, is to relax and not get upset when I miss easy shots.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 11:23am
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Create non rating point goals.
That's right. Forget about 2000, just work on getting better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 11:25am
Totally agree with Dan. "If you are playing for rating, you are in trouble." Try to win, if you lose, it is fine. We will work on that next time. Every opponent is different. If you are lucky, you can meet someone you do have a chance to win to get rating up. But don't expect that before tournament. 

As a personal story, for my kid, he increases from 1300 to around 1800 in recent four month. Almost every month, 100 point increase for each tournament he joined. As parent, although it is good thing, I am not comfortable with that because our purpose is not getting rating increase. We are looking for events he can win. My kid and I shared the same thought. He told me he didn't worry about rating. If you are really good, you can achieve 2000 rating with only one tournament if you can beat above 2000 person no matter what your current rating is. Current system allows that.  Good luck for your future challenge. 


Edited by mentortt - 01/22/2019 at 11:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 1:52pm
Mark's problem comes down to where his club is located. He needs to expose himself to higher level TT players for significantly longer periods.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 5:20pm
you don't need coaching to get to 2000.  Take me for instance, it only took me 16 years to get there =)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 6:17pm
I think it is more important for him to get good coaching, than playing with better players. 
If you play with better players but have awful technique you will of course become better but i think it will take longer time and i think you will have trouble becoming really good with "bad technique". 

If he have a good coach and works on the technique, he can play with players that are not better than him as long as they can play okay and work on the strokes. It would proably be harder to develop a good technique if he plays with only better players since he need to focus so much on putting the ball on the table. 

A mix would proably be best. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 8:22pm
You can get to 2000 without good technique. 2000 is not "really good". Playing with better players and actually playing exercises is better. You also don't need a coach to learn proper technique. I think mark is smart enough to know what good technique can look like and focus on improving it himself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

2000 is not "really good".


It is, in fact, objectively a measure that indicates that someone is pretty damn good at the game (significantly better than the average competitive/tournament player and light years beyond the average casual player), and can reasonably be considered an expert level.


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