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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I'm familiar with many German players in the US - which players are you of a comparable level to? I found that the "general rule" of TTR+350 that I frequently seen thrown around here is way too rough of an approximation.

I did this and it was not an approximation but based on a statistical analysis I did of players who had both a USATT rating and a German TTR. By the way the standard deviation was 50 so the exact formula should be: USATT = TTR + 350 +/-50
Of course there may also be outliers but there are also statistical tools to test for outlier.


How many data points went into the model? Did it account for differences in playing level when DE and US ratings were achieved? Just curious...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 10:34am
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I'm familiar with many German players in the US - which players are you of a comparable level to? I found that the "general rule" of TTR+350 that I frequently seen thrown around here is way too rough of an approximation.

I did this and it was not an approximation but based on a statistical analysis I did of players who had both a USATT rating and a German TTR. By the way the standard deviation was 50 so the exact formula should be: USATT = TTR + 350 +/-50
Of course there may also be outliers but there are also statistical tools to test for outlier.


How many data points went into the model? Did it account for differences in playing level when DE and US ratings were achieved? Just curious...

I believe I had put together a list of about 30 players with both a TTR and USATT rating and there were a few obvious outliers on that list as well which I did not omit from the analysis but that's what the standard deviation is for.
I don't understand what you mean by "Did it account for differences in playing level when DE and US ratings were achieved?"
It might be interesting to repeat that analysis now since this was a few years ago; maybe there is more data now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I'm familiar with many German players in the US - which players are you of a comparable level to? I found that the "general rule" of TTR+350 that I frequently seen thrown around here is way too rough of an approximation.

I did this and it was not an approximation but based on a statistical analysis I did of players who had both a USATT rating and a German TTR. By the way the standard deviation was 50 so the exact formula should be: USATT = TTR + 350 +/-50
Of course there may also be outliers but there are also statistical tools to test for outlier.


How many data points went into the model? Did it account for differences in playing level when DE and US ratings were achieved? Just curious...

I believe I had put together a list of about 30 players with both a TTR and USATT rating and there were a few obvious outliers on that list as well which I did not omit from the analysis but that's what the standard deviation is for.
I don't understand what you mean by "Did it account for differences in playing level when DE and US ratings were achieved?"
It might be interesting to repeat that analysis now since this was a few years ago; maybe there is more data now.


For example was it people living in Germany who visited the US for a tournament or people who had moved here and potentially had changes in their playing level? Good to know about this but to stay on topic none of it really detracts from my original point that 2000 is objectively a good level for a club player and also a level that most “normal” players do not achieve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

...
I believe I had put together a list of about 30 players with both a TTR and USATT rating and there were a few obvious outliers on that list as well which I did not omit from the analysis but that's what the standard deviation is for.
I don't understand what you mean by "Did it account for differences in playing level when DE and US ratings were achieved?"
It might be interesting to repeat that analysis now since this was a few years ago; maybe there is more data now.

My understanding was: let's say TTR is up to date, but USATT is from 3 years ago. This introduces some bias into your estimates.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 10:41am
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:



For example was it people living in Germany who visited the US for a tournament or people who had moved here and potentially had changes in their playing level? Good to know about this but to stay on topic none of it really detracts from my original point that 2000 is objectively a good level for a club player and also a level that most “normal” players do not achieve.

That is difficult to do when you simple look at data that is available online like the USATT ratings and German TTR on tt-click. Most of the players in that list, I believe, where players who had visited the USA and entered a tournament. Of course there could be various factors that might skew the data but at least my analysis was based on data and not guesses (which is what most members here seem to generally favor )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 10:41am
Yes, what pgpg said
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 10:42am
Yes all that is good to know, thanks for sharing. Anyways, back on topic...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 10:55am
Mark, getting to 2K is easy since you are already mid-1800s.  Sign up for the DC Team tournament.  Team up with four 1900-2K players and play mostly the last couple of days when the opposing 2Ks are exhausted.  I see people artificially go up 200 points about their rating.  You know what I'm talking about ;)

Keep in mind that USATT ratings are the most important thing in table tennis since Hiroje Satoh introduced sponge in 1952.  I have traveled to Europe, Asia, Middle East, the Caribbean and when they find out I'm from the U.S. what is their first question? "What is your rating?" The world knows we're on to something.  So if you give up focus on ratings, you might as well give up TT and take up shuffleboard.  You know you're not playing for fun or exercise.  Don't keep ratings chase in your subconscious.  Keep it up front in center in your brain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 10:57am
pgpg is roght that the standard of very good is higher in a proper TT country like Germany than here. That's just words.

However objectively 2000 players don't have to be that good, as in, you can still make a lot of terrible fundamentsl mistskes snd play at or above 2000.

I kind of feel like mjamja's challenge is that he wants to resch 2000 in a particular way, through perfecting stroke form. All the shadow play videos come to mind. But that isn't necessary for 2000, and is probably the hardest, most time-comsuming way to get there. Talking about "the kind of practice I want to get" also sounds a bit dogmatic.

If you eventually want to be unequivocally really good, 2400, then okay, you better have near-perfect form. And it's going to take thousands of hours of unrelenting practice to get there.

If you only want to go from 1800 to 2000 that's not necessary. Assuming you are an attacking player you need serves and receives that cause problems to 2000 players. You need experience vs junk rubbers. And you need a point-winning attack (at 2000 level) on at least one side.

What you don't need is ideal form or footwork. There are a lot of ways to play over 2000. Limiting yourself to one way makes it a lot harder. So the question to mjamja is whst is the real goal? If it to raise ypur level to over 2000, then imo you have options on how to get there even in ypur linited training environment. If your real goal is to play over 2000 with the technique and style thst is your mental image of what 2000 would look like for you, then you probabæy have to take some extreme measures. Like spending all sunmer at a camp and training 5 hours a day. Or oeaving the US and going to an inexpensive and TT friendly country like Thailand or Portugal, or Vietnam.

Whether those seem like crazy ideas depends on how important TT goals are to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 11:31am
Yep, come on over to Vietnam. You can get a really good coach for 10 to 15 bucks an hour. There are tons of players higher than 2000 who would be willing to play with you everyday. I can even show you around, introduce you to players/coaches, and help you find an apartment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 11:31am
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

I end up playing matches with choppers, lobbers, and retrievers where I just can not get the type of practice I really wanted to focus on.

What kind of training are you trying to get?  Do you have any rapidly improving 2000+ juniors at your club?  Maybe you could find one to train with you for $10-$15/hour.  I'd bet you'd get some takers.


I am looking to get some training where I can try to execute the same basic shot or shot combinations for 10 min in a row. Multi-ball would be great but I would settle for someone just blocking without making every third ball a kill or a chop block. Only one junior at the club and he trains with his father (they train exactly the way I want to train). There are a few players who train the way I want, but they are mostly the 2200+ group. I feel bad about breaking into their training time and even if I decide to do that, there are some issues which make it difficult to do.

Part of the problem is being new to how this club does its playing rotation. Its different from my former club and I can not seem to get paired up with the people with whom I would train well. For example there is one player that is perfect for me, but I only seem to get matched up with him about 1 out of 3 days. And then our practice often limited to just 20 min because someone is waiting to play.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 11:36am
Given Mark's situation of scarcity of local quality players and starting after 50 to play seriously, I find it really impressive to reach 1800.
We need to build a ball to keep the illegal servers from entering our tournaments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 11:48am
Most players don't know what he/she needs to do. You are very detail what you need to train. One more advice: join some 4-star tournament with at least 200 players. You will compete and train with them. Most of them are rally person you are looking for. For chopper, lopper players, they are very rare. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 11:54am
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Mark, getting to 2K is easy since you are already mid-1800s.  Sign up for the DC Team tournament.  Team up with four 1900-2K players and play mostly the last couple of days when the opposing 2Ks are exhausted.  I see people artificially go up 200 points about their rating.  You know what I'm talking about ;)

Keep in mind that USATT ratings are the most important thing in table tennis since Hiroje Satoh introduced sponge in 1952.  I have traveled to Europe, Asia, Middle East, the Caribbean and when they find out I'm from the U.S. what is their first question? "What is your rating?" The world knows we're on to something.  So if you give up focus on ratings, you might as well give up TT and take up shuffleboard.  You know you're not playing for fun or exercise.  Don't keep ratings chase in your subconscious.  Keep it up front in center in your brain.


To clarify. I do not want to just have a 2000 rating. I want the skill set I see displayed by the majority of players with that rating. I want to hit shots with similar speed and spin to what they hit. I want to be able to handle the kind of attacks they block aggessively or counter-attack that now I just watch go by me or softly block back to set up an oppents kill. I want a serve return which does not result in 50% easy 3rd ball winners when I play anyone rated over 1900. I want to move at least a little so that 80% of my shots are not hit off balance and so that simple blocks are not winners because my bad footwork got me so out of position.

I have tried to work on this for over 4 yrs now and I see no improvement in any of these areas. Movement is even getting worse as I age. Maybe in a different playing environment I could do it. But Salem and San Antonio were both so much better than Corpus in terms of training opportunity and neither really helped. My conclusion is that I just do not have the "it" that it takes to move up in skills.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:05pm
That's a sad story, I'd practice with you :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:06pm
To Mark,

Long pips is the answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

pgpg is roght that the standard of very good is higher in a proper TT country like Germany than here. That's just words.

However objectively 2000 players don't have to be that good, as in, you can still make a lot of terrible fundamentsl mistskes snd play at or above 2000.

I kind of feel like mjamja's challenge is that he wants to resch 2000 in a particular way, through perfecting stroke form. All the shadow play videos come to mind. But that isn't necessary for 2000, and is probably the hardest, most time-comsuming way to get there. Talking about "the kind of practice I want to get" also sounds a bit dogmatic.

If you eventually want to be unequivocally really good, 2400, then okay, you better have near-perfect form. And it's going to take thousands of hours of unrelenting practice to get there.

If you only want to go from 1800 to 2000 that's not necessary. Assuming you are an attacking player you need serves and receives that cause problems to 2000 players. You need experience vs junk rubbers. And you need a point-winning attack (at 2000 level) on at least one side.

What you don't need is ideal form or footwork. There are a lot of ways to play over 2000. Limiting yourself to one way makes it a lot harder. So the question to mjamja is whst is the real goal? If it to raise ypur level to over 2000, then imo you have options on how to get there even in ypur linited training environment. If your real goal is to play over 2000 with the technique and style thst is your mental image of what 2000 would look like for you, then you probabæy have to take some extreme measures. Like spending all sunmer at a camp and training 5 hours a day. Or oeaving the US and going to an inexpensive and TT friendly country like Thailand or Portugal, or Vietnam.

Whether those seem like crazy ideas depends on how important TT goals are to you.


I want a 2000 skill set, but it does not need to be the set that can be developed into a 2400 level. I work hard on my Bh play because I know that the Fh pivot is just not going to be a major part of my game. But even then, I want to play with balanced footwork like Heavyspin and Richard DeWitt rather than all the awkward off balance shots I hit now. I am fine with using more of a blocking game than counter-looping. But I want a blocking game that when facing typical 2000 level shots does not just send back little pop ups that are then killed easily.

Serve and return are the worst part of my game. I have not been able to figure out a way to practice them that seems to give any improvement. Maybe my whole issue is not understanding how to practice any of the skills I want to develop.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

...
Serve and return are the worst part of my game. I have not been able to figure out a way to practice them that seems to give any improvement. Maybe my whole issue is not understanding how to practice any of the skills I want to develop.

Mark

You might be a good candidate then for something like ttEdge (Brett Clarke) or other remote/video coaching.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

To Mark,

Long pips is the answer.

Not sure if LP is a guaranteed slam dunk - 4+ years later an I'm still trying to master them. Cry

Plus I suspect 'mjamja' prefers a certain play style and LP is not it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

I've played ttgold and seen him play other us players. He was over 2100 in July. And he's probably better now.


That explains a lot. People overestimate the essence of things based on personal experience as opposed to population statistics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

To Mark,

Long pips is the answer.


Not sure if LP is a guaranteed slam dunk - 4+ years later an I'm still trying to master them. Cry

Plus I suspect 'mjamja' prefers a certain play style and LP is not it. 


I really like aggressive Bh play with LP. Just scared that I will not be able to play for enough years to get to a skill set I see in 2000 level LP players.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

To Mark,

Long pips is the answer.


Not sure if LP is a guaranteed slam dunk - 4+ years later an I'm still trying to master them. Cry

Plus I suspect 'mjamja' prefers a certain play style and LP is not it. 


I really like aggressive Bh play with LP. Just scared that I will not be able to play for enough years to get to a skill set I see in 2000 level LP players.

Mark

You can always try - it's fun in itself, never mind the ratings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

pgpg is roght that the standard of very good is higher in a proper TT country like Germany than here. That's just words.

However objectively 2000 players don't have to be that good, as in, you can still make a lot of terrible fundamentsl mistskes snd play at or above 2000.

I kind of feel like mjamja's challenge is that he wants to resch 2000 in a particular way, through perfecting stroke form. All the shadow play videos come to mind. But that isn't necessary for 2000, and is probably the hardest, most time-comsuming way to get there. Talking about "the kind of practice I want to get" also sounds a bit dogmatic.

If you eventually want to be unequivocally really good, 2400, then okay, you better have near-perfect form. And it's going to take thousands of hours of unrelenting practice to get there.

If you only want to go from 1800 to 2000 that's not necessary. Assuming you are an attacking player you need serves and receives that cause problems to 2000 players. You need experience vs junk rubbers. And you need a point-winning attack (at 2000 level) on at least one side.

What you don't need is ideal form or footwork. There are a lot of ways to play over 2000. Limiting yourself to one way makes it a lot harder. So the question to mjamja is whst is the real goal? If it to raise ypur level to over 2000, then imo you have options on how to get there even in ypur linited training environment. If your real goal is to play over 2000 with the technique and style thst is your mental image of what 2000 would look like for you, then you probabæy have to take some extreme measures. Like spending all sunmer at a camp and training 5 hours a day. Or oeaving the US and going to an inexpensive and TT friendly country like Thailand or Portugal, or Vietnam.

Whether those seem like crazy ideas depends on how important TT goals are to you.


I want a 2000 skill set, but it does not need to be the set that can be developed into a 2400 level. I work hard on my Bh play because I know that the Fh pivot is just not going to be a major part of my game. But even then, I want to play with balanced footwork like Heavyspin and Richard DeWitt rather than all the awkward off balance shots I hit now. I am fine with using more of a blocking game than counter-looping. But I want a blocking game that when facing typical 2000 level shots does not just send back little pop ups that are then killed easily.

Serve and return are the worst part of my game. I have not been able to figure out a way to practice them that seems to give any improvement. Maybe my whole issue is not understanding how to practice any of the skills I want to develop.

Mark

Reading the game is the most important thing that gets better when you hang around and play regularly with better players. I really think you need someone who just talks you through how to optimize your weapons and how to block higher quality shots with more consistency. I have seen coaches find ways to put 2300 level players under pressure when facing 1800 players based on tactics. That degree of tactical effectiveness is not common but you can get advice from better players that help your game if you play them and hang around them regularly.   Over time they see your issues and they tell you some things to stop doing or things to do more. Those small things can add up to 3 ton4 points a match which can be a lot. I can think of some critical matches here and there where someone told me something just because I knew them and the advice helped me win the match.

But going for camps is for people who like training. It makes a difference only if your technique is just terrible. Or if you can really gain a lot from training. What you want is really to get someone who will work extensively with you on deceptive and consistent serve return, the main thing is that this is very cognitively challenging.   You seem up to the challenge so that is how I would go. The ttedge app is where I would start.

Edited by NextLevel - 01/24/2019 at 12:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

pgpg is roght that the standard of very good is higher in a proper TT country like Germany than here. That's just words.

However objectively 2000 players don't have to be that good, as in, you can still make a lot of terrible fundamentsl mistskes snd play at or above 2000.

I kind of feel like mjamja's challenge is that he wants to resch 2000 in a particular way, through perfecting stroke form. All the shadow play videos come to mind. But that isn't necessary for 2000, and is probably the hardest, most time-comsuming way to get there. Talking about "the kind of practice I want to get" also sounds a bit dogmatic.

If you eventually want to be unequivocally really good, 2400, then okay, you better have near-perfect form. And it's going to take thousands of hours of unrelenting practice to get there.

If you only want to go from 1800 to 2000 that's not necessary. Assuming you are an attacking player you need serves and receives that cause problems to 2000 players. You need experience vs junk rubbers. And you need a point-winning attack (at 2000 level) on at least one side.

What you don't need is ideal form or footwork. There are a lot of ways to play over 2000. Limiting yourself to one way makes it a lot harder. So the question to mjamja is whst is the real goal? If it to raise ypur level to over 2000, then imo you have options on how to get there even in ypur linited training environment. If your real goal is to play over 2000 with the technique and style thst is your mental image of what 2000 would look like for you, then you probabæy have to take some extreme measures. Like spending all sunmer at a camp and training 5 hours a day. Or oeaving the US and going to an inexpensive and TT friendly country like Thailand or Portugal, or Vietnam.

Whether those seem like crazy ideas depends on how important TT goals are to you.


I thought this was the post of the thread already but it looks even better with mjamjas subsequent response. I would echo these sentiments that picture perfect form may not be the ideal way to go about achieving the goal in this situation, but I’d have to watch tape to know. But it all comes down to what the player wants to do. I guess there’s something to be said for looking good and feeling good while playing too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

To Mark,

Long pips is the answer.


Sure. I take it you switched from inverted to long pipe and shot right up to 2000? Or just parroting one of those things that always gets thrown around on forums but isn’t really based in reality? An LP switch is what you do if you want some cheap points in the intermediate level say 1300 to 1600. It would be far more trouble than the alternative to go from 1800 to 2000 and likely an unsuccessful venture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 1:58pm
I disagree that camps only make a difference if your technique is really bad. I see some very good players at camps and they seem to think it is making them better. Depends on the camp of course.

But I 100% agree that receiving is the biggest opportunity. I would start by paying good players to serve at you. Could be a coach or just one of those 2200+ guys at the club. Don't even play out the points, do it multiball style. Two hours of that is like playing dozens of matches. They get paid to practice serves, and you get 100s of receives an hour. Total win-win.

If you also spend some time on serves, that could get you over 2000, even with all the other problems in your game. For serves I second the ttedge recommendation. The content there is the most comprehensive, imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 2:14pm
Hi all,

I am a lurker of French TT forums and they have a term to name a "hit through loop", they call it "top frappé" (example), when we smash the heavy topspin ball that is high enough, with a closed angle and a downwards motion. The fact that we don't have a term for that stroke in USA means something to me and we verify observing the 2 typical answers to a heavy high topspin here: a block, placed or not, aggressive or not, or a counter loop stepping back a bit. The "hit through topspin" is often considered as a lucky gamble when it's successful, I think it's wrong since the stroke is controllable and this is the connection to mjamja's issue: he needs to focus on that stroke, the "beat up topspin" . It will allow him to take control of more rallies and put more pressure on the opponent who will take more risks and miss more; also it will allow to save energy by lowering the average length of rallies.

My other question is about mjamja's chiquita, is it good? there also we can take control of rallies when a short serve is not loaded with heavy underspin (the hardest). Without a chiquita, it is hard to survive nowadays, especially when the opponent has one and it's becoming the norm now, thanks to ZJK who made it global in 2010 with the success we know at 2011 wttc.

Last but not least, receiving serves is hard to train and practicing with a good patient server is key; but the only way mjamja can interest a 2200 good server is to feed them balls when it's their turn to benefit from the session (5 minutes each for an hour?), that way everybody wins. It s a good idea to learn how to feed routines and have them written down in a notebook to show potential partners that we are ready. I watched this so many times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu80P4MpF3c, when the boss takes over at 2m19s it's really mesmerizing!



Edited by fatt - 01/24/2019 at 2:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

I disagree that camps only make a difference if your technique is really bad. I see some very good players at camps and they seem to think it is making them better. Depends on the camp of course.

But I 100% agree that receiving is the biggest opportunity. I would start by paying good players to serve at you. Could be a coach or just one of those 2200+ guys at the club. Don't even play out the points, do it multiball style. Two hours of that is like playing dozens of matches. They get paid to practice serves, and you get 100s of receives an hour. Total win-win.

If you also spend some time on serves, that could get you over 2000, even with all the other problems in your game. For serves I second the ttedge recommendation. The content there is the most comprehensive, imo.

"The technique is really bad" comment was an exaggeration but my point stands - you can get a marginally better stroke in a camp that doesn't do much for you. But the other things I mentioned (mentored by better players) also happens in a camp. Camps can improve all kinds of things about your play but you wont get mamxium benefit just by going to the camp unless you just enjoy training.   Moat players adults especially get more benefit if they know what technique or point sequence is costing them points and they use the camp to gain insight and a fix.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 3:27pm
As to being dogmatic about the kind of practice I want.

What I am getting that I do not want is:
1. Mostly having to play matches
2. When I do practice I only get 20 min on table and then usually have to sit 30 min before getting back (way club rules play out).
3. Practice consisting of returning randomly placed and random spin from chopper/ retrievers. Might just as well be playing a match.
4. Practice with 1000 level players where I end up giving a lesson instead of practicing. I do not mind giving a lesson or hitting with lower level players but I do not want that to be 80% of my practice time.
5. Practicing with partners who think every drill should consist of one hit each and then a winner or a miss.

I want some practice where I can see a similar type of ball multiple times so I can develop some muscle memory on how to hit that kind of ball. I would like to do some simple footwork drills where there is a fixed pattern to where the balls land. I would like a drill where I can practice blocking to different places without having every third ball being hit to me be a winner.

Is this really being dogmatic.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

As to being dogmatic about the kind of practice I want.

What I am getting that I do not want is:
1. Mostly having to play matches
2. When I do practice I only get 20 min on table and then usually have to sit 30 min before getting back (way club rules play out).
3. Practice consisting of returning randomly placed and random spin from chopper/ retrievers. Might just as well be playing a match.
4. Practice with 1000 level players where I end up giving a lesson instead of practicing. I do not mind giving a lesson or hitting with lower level players but I do not want that to be 80% of my practice time.
5. Practicing with partners who think every drill should consist of one hit each and then a winner or a miss.

I want some practice where I can see a similar type of ball multiple times so I can develop some muscle memory on how to hit that kind of ball. I would like to do some simple footwork drills where there is a fixed pattern to where the balls land. I would like a drill where I can practice blocking to different places without having every third ball being hit to me be a winner.

Is this really being dogmatic.

Mark

You should visit 'BRS' and practice 7 days a week in his garage - looks like both of you would love it.
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