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Giving up on 2000

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 3:42pm
Because of my wrist problem I can not execute a chiquita (at least like anyone I have observed). The very limited wrist flexibity I have is one of the reasons I switched to short pips Bh. The problem also greatly limits my serve options and the amount of spin I can generate on serves.

By the way, can a chiquita be done with short pips?

I do have a Bh return that is kind oh like Ito's strawberry flick. Maybe that is something I should try to develop. Right now it just kind of happens sometimes. I could work on making it a planned tactic.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

B
By the way, can a chiquita be done with short pips?

Mark
You remember Yan at our club?  He does a pretty decent Chiquita with short, medium, or long pips.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

B
By the way, can a chiquita be done with short pips?

Mark

You remember Yan at our club?  He does a pretty decent Chiquita with short, medium, or long pips.


It can but the technique and arm position are different with SP. Watch any Mima Ito match, she does chiquita and strawberry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

As to being dogmatic about the kind of practice I want.

What I am getting that I do not want is:
1. Mostly having to play matches
2. When I do practice I only get 20 min on table and then usually have to sit 30 min before getting back (way club rules play out).
3. Practice consisting of returning randomly placed and random spin from chopper/ retrievers. Might just as well be playing a match.
4. Practice with 1000 level players where I end up giving a lesson instead of practicing. I do not mind giving a lesson or hitting with lower level players but I do not want that to be 80% of my practice time.
5. Practicing with partners who think every drill should consist of one hit each and then a winner or a miss.

I want some practice where I can see a similar type of ball multiple times so I can develop some muscle memory on how to hit that kind of ball. I would like to do some simple footwork drills where there is a fixed pattern to where the balls land. I would like a drill where I can practice blocking to different places without having every third ball being hit to me be a winner.

Is this really being dogmatic.

Mark
It's not being dogmatic at all.  It's a matter of personal preference and what works for you.  And this is possibly one reason you like visiting us, aside from all our charm.

It seems to me that there are two ways to improve someone's game: you can do drills or you can play matches.  If you do the drills, then your partners need only be within a few hundred points of you (>1500 in your case) or have specific skills that you can practice against.  If you do matches, then you need your opponents to be above your target rating (>2000 for you) and you need lots of matches.

Most of the people who reached 2000+ as adults (as opposed to be trained as juniors) got there by playing a lot of matches, mostly either against higher level players or in clubs where there are a good number of higher rated players.  There is just so much to learn from advice or even just observing in those environments.

I wonder how many people ever reach 2000 where everyone in their club is below 1700?  I'll bet it's rare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Because of my wrist problem I can not execute a chiquita (at least like anyone I have observed). The very limited wrist flexibity I have is one of the reasons I switched to short pips Bh. The problem also greatly limits my serve options and the amount of spin I can generate on serves.

By the way, can a chiquita be done with short pips?

I do have a Bh return that is kind oh like Ito's strawberry flick. Maybe that is something I should try to develop. Right now it just kind of happens sometimes. I could work on making it a planned tactic.

Mark


The strawberry and chiquita is perfectly executable using pips, you can see Ito Mima using both very effectively. For BH serves you can serve using inverted and twiddle after you serve. You could also do some FH tomahawk serves or hook serves, or even the simplest heavy underspin/no spin serve, they are not that hard to learn... key thing is to maintain the same movement and bat angle regardless of what spin you're generating.

In my opinion simple FH pendulum serves are way too common and everyone seems to receive them well. At my club people make numerous mistakes receiving my hook serves compared to my much spinnier and imo more deceptive FH pendulum serves.

With pips you can develop a soft flick to put opponents under pressure from the get go and avoid facing a very spinny opening loop.

Even when people are not practicing with you, you can still work on your game within a match, especially serve and receive, which is basically almost everything in table tennis....

Edited by blahness - 01/24/2019 at 4:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Again, it is a rare exception and unlikely that an older player without access to coaching or high level play will reach 2000, or any typical club player for that matter. You having done it doesn’t make it as doable as you are making it seem. It seems your heart is in the right place but peppering in comments about how “easy” it is probably will not encourage someone who has plateaued. Also your comment about only discussing talent in the case of overrated players is very confusing, no idea what you are trying to say there.

On the flip side of the coin I’d say no shame if it never works out because it is not an easy bar to achieve.
what I meant by overrated is not their actual rating in comparison to their play level, but their rating compared to other factors. Someone that doesn't practice, plays only a few times and has other problems, like being overweight, doesn't have proper technique etc. All these factors would speak against that person, yet they somehow manage to get their rating. In this case through insane ball felling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Because of my wrist problem I can not execute a chiquita (at least like anyone I have observed). The very limited wrist flexibity I have is one of the reasons I switched to short pips Bh. The problem also greatly limits my serve options and the amount of spin I can generate on serves.

By the way, can a chiquita be done with short pips?

I do have a Bh return that is kind oh like Ito's strawberry flick. Maybe that is something I should try to develop. Right now it just kind of happens sometimes. I could work on making it a planned tactic.

Mark
if you are interested in developing an inverted chiquita, I recommend you try an ultimate bh grip and even further than that: a Swedish pendulum grip where you hold your paddle with 3 fingers only on the rubbers, the thumb on one side, above the top of the handle and index/middle on the other, on the left of the top of the handle: it will allow less wrist flexion and a much better touch/control re. tangent at contact. On the robot I always like to ponder about methods to learn stuff in small steps so I avoid living in frustration for a long time before being rewarded. That sidespin chiquita method with that grip requires less wrist, you can punch with your forearm and it will work even with the smallest wrist motion. It will look weird but you reached a wisdom rating in life where nobody cares about how they look as long as it gets the job done.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

pgpg is roght that the standard of very good is higher in a proper TT country like Germany than here. That's just words.

However objectively 2000 players don't have to be that good, as in, you can still make a lot of terrible fundamentsl mistskes snd play at or above 2000.

I kind of feel like mjamja's challenge is that he wants to resch 2000 in a particular way, through perfecting stroke form. All the shadow play videos come to mind. But that isn't necessary for 2000, and is probably the hardest, most time-comsuming way to get there. Talking about "the kind of practice I want to get" also sounds a bit dogmatic.

If you eventually want to be unequivocally really good, 2400, then okay, you better have near-perfect form. And it's going to take thousands of hours of unrelenting practice to get there.

If you only want to go from 1800 to 2000 that's not necessary. Assuming you are an attacking player you need serves and receives that cause problems to 2000 players. You need experience vs junk rubbers. And you need a point-winning attack (at 2000 level) on at least one side.

What you don't need is ideal form or footwork. There are a lot of ways to play over 2000. Limiting yourself to one way makes it a lot harder. So the question to mjamja is whst is the real goal? If it to raise ypur level to over 2000, then imo you have options on how to get there even in ypur linited training environment. If your real goal is to play over 2000 with the technique and style thst is your mental image of what 2000 would look like for you, then you probabæy have to take some extreme measures. Like spending all sunmer at a camp and training 5 hours a day. Or oeaving the US and going to an inexpensive and TT friendly country like Thailand or Portugal, or Vietnam.

Whether those seem like crazy ideas depends on how important TT goals are to you.


I want a 2000 skill set, but it does not need to be the set that can be developed into a 2400 level. I work hard on my Bh play because I know that the Fh pivot is just not going to be a major part of my game. But even then, I want to play with balanced footwork like Heavyspin and Richard DeWitt rather than all the awkward off balance shots I hit now. I am fine with using more of a blocking game than counter-looping. But I want a blocking game that when facing typical 2000 level shots does not just send back little pop ups that are then killed easily.

Serve and return are the worst part of my game. I have not been able to figure out a way to practice them that seems to give any improvement. Maybe my whole issue is not understanding how to practice any of the skills I want to develop.

Mark


I totally understand you wanting all these things. I've said for a long time that my goal is for anyone watching me play to think I trained seriously as a junior. Which is most of the stuff on your list.

I'd have to watch sone of your matches, but I bet a lot of the movement difficulty is down to poor anticipation. And one of the worst causes of that, imo, is training a lot with robots. And iirc, you've done that.

There are plenty of semi-random drills to build anticipation and balance. Like one to the middle and one to either side, repeat. One short and then one short or long. Serve and receive is just quality reps.

So basically I agree with you. You aren't just after the 2000 number, you want to play a certain "right" way. Imo you hace to be very precise in the exercises you choose sp you target specific gane situations that cost you points. And you need match play vs over 2000 players.

Your choices are simple but hard:
1. Get that training where you are, paying or however
2. Move within the US to a better trsining environment
3. Go international

Ericd is willing to help you get set up in Vietnam. TTPor is a great choice in Portugal. There are a lot of places.

If none of those are realistic options for you, then you are right to give up on the goal. You enjoy other things too, and there is nothing wrong with that. You are a good player and you have given it your best effort.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

As to being dogmatic about the kind of practice I want.

What I am getting that I do not want is:
1. Mostly having to play matches
2. When I do practice I only get 20 min on table and then usually have to sit 30 min before getting back (way club rules play out).
3. Practice consisting of returning randomly placed and random spin from chopper/ retrievers. Might just as well be playing a match.
4. Practice with 1000 level players where I end up giving a lesson instead of practicing. I do not mind giving a lesson or hitting with lower level players but I do not want that to be 80% of my practice time.
5. Practicing with partners who think every drill should consist of one hit each and then a winner or a miss.

I want some practice where I can see a similar type of ball multiple times so I can develop some muscle memory on how to hit that kind of ball. I would like to do some simple footwork drills where there is a fixed pattern to where the balls land. I would like a drill where I can practice blocking to different places without having every third ball being hit to me be a winner.

Is this really being dogmatic.

Mark


Yep, you need to come to Vietnam. In Saigon, there are virtually zero 1000 level players anywhere. You could find someplace to play table tennis in Saigon from 5am up until about 9pm, seven days a week. We even have 2 tables in my apartment building. These guys rarely go to an actual club to play, but their level even in my apartment block is still 1200 to 1700. I'm the best player in the complex, but I can still get a good a good practice in nearly whenever I want. Even the neighboring apartment complex has 3 tables, 2 guys around my level over there. 

I know of about 30 or more clubs which are within 30 minutes by motorbike from my apartment. Just a quick Google search you can see 20 clubs: 


(Cau lac bo bong ban = The Club for Table Tennis)

All of those clubs are open 7 days a week. Some of them open all day from 7am to about 9pm. Others have a morning session from about 8am- 12(noon) and an afternoon session from 5pm to 9pm. Its super easy to find players up to about 2200 level who will hit with you. If you are looking for above 2400, its more difficult. But, I also know where you kind find those players too. You also aren't limited to just 20 minutes or 1 match at a table. When you find a good practice partner, most of them will practice until you ask them to stop. Most of the clubs also have enough table so that you don't need to do a whole lot of waiting. 

There are a couple of drawback to the table tennis scene here however. Saigon is really hot, especially in the summer. None of the clubs have air conditioning running. There is one club that has air conditioning, but they only turn it on for major tournaments. There is also one training center that has air conditioning, but they don't play matches there. You can only train with a coach. Other than that, my apartment complex is one of the rare places with an air conditioned table tennis room. The other thing is, most of the people stop playing around 8pm or 830pm. If you have to work during the day, there isn't any opportunity to play late. In Malaysia, they have a few table tennis clubs that are open 24 hours a day and also have air con. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Hi all,

I am a lurker of French TT forums and they have a term to name a "hit through loop", they call it "top frappé" (example), when we smash the heavy topspin ball that is high enough, with a closed angle and a downwards motion. The fact that we don't have a term for that stroke in USA means something to me and we verify observing the 2 typical answers to a heavy high topspin here: a block, placed or not, aggressive or not, or a counter loop stepping back a bit. The "hit through topspin" is often considered as a lucky gamble when it's successful, I think it's wrong since the stroke is controllable and this is the connection to mjamja's issue: he needs to focus on that stroke, the "beat up topspin" . It will allow him to take control of more rallies and put more pressure on the opponent who will take more risks and miss more; also it will allow to save energy by lowering the average length of rallies.

My other question is about mjamja's chiquita, is it good? there also we can take control of rallies when a short serve is not loaded with heavy underspin (the hardest). Without a chiquita, it is hard to survive nowadays, especially when the opponent has one and it's becoming the norm now, thanks to ZJK who made it global in 2010 with the success we know at 2011 wttc.

Last but not least, receiving serves is hard to train and practicing with a good patient server is key; but the only way mjamja can interest a 2200 good server is to feed them balls when it's their turn to benefit from the session (5 minutes each for an hour?), that way everybody wins. It s a good idea to learn how to feed routines and have them written down in a notebook to show potential partners that we are ready. I watched this so many times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu80P4MpF3c, when the boss takes over at 2m19s it's really mesmerizing!







I don't understand this, these are called smashes in English.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 7:26pm
The fact that mjamja has made it to 1870 from where he started is nothing short of amazing. Heck, he has had to train with me more than any sane person should have to.

I should mention, with due respect to the club in San Antonio that it is not a club that many (?any) one could come into as an outsider and get the kind of practice they need to improve. One could improve there if you were an insider coming up or get good training if you were already good before you came. But the facilities, the number of top players, the lack of coaches and number of tables or lack thereof are limiting. Answer-move on. Austin, Houston, or other locals may be better. 

The book "Shadow Stroking My Way to 2000" also remains to be written.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 7:29pm
I should add on what BH man says. Mjamja could be 2000 right now with absolutely NO improvement in technique if he:
Played 1900-2200 level players as much as he played 1000 and below at our home club.
Or with tactical improvement alone. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 9:49pm
I would love to train with you, Mark. So add Japan onto that list of potential countries to move to ;)

I'm already doing all of the things you mentioned, but only as the ball feeder and blocker. Would love to do some of those drills myself, too. "Coaching" (in quotation marks cos I suck at it) juniors is a good way to get a lot of block practice against pretty consistent balls. Adults tend to do what you say and kill balls during what should be controlled practice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 9:50pm
Break 2k for retired travelers proposal:

1-Move your rolling club close to ICC, Westchester or Triangle. 

2-Put together an online calendar and favorite slots for YOU to play, not sure what is best for that, I think of something where you pre-approve email addresses and they invite themselves when they want. When you wake up at coffee time, you check 1st how will your work day go.

3-Bet money with people over 2000 in 3/5 matches, whatever they accept up to $10 a match maybe?

A few remarks:

Impose a 10 minutes warm up, just don't play those who just want to be done asap. Make sure you are not ashamed to play dumb and if you can make the warm up last longer, do it!

Some players won't take the money and will play you for fun and because they like you so it might be less expensive than you think at the end of your week. 

Kids will jump to the opportunity and you will enjoy sponsoring their youth in a friendly way where everybody wins. Those quick ralliers are best to keep you alert.

Those who take the money are good material, the best actually, they DO NOT WANT TO LOSE: You'll be losing 3-0 at 1st in 20 minutes but one day, more and more often from there, you will impose 5 deuces in a row, you'll make the guys play an hour, it will feel so good to make 2k+ working for you for $10/h.  Now imagine when YOU start winning, IT'S PAYBACK TIIIIIME!

If you make it work you will be known in the the whole USA thanks to your thread/blog entry here and  scrupulous reports and video uploads of all matches. Announcing your arrival at the next club will be a cultural pong event there. 

There is room to get sponsored by a company for the endeavor, say a trip with 2 months stops at SDTTA, ICC, SPTTC, Vancouver BC, Westchester, Triangle, that's more than a year already given inter city travel. A TT company, a car company, an insurance company may pitch in  --> "thank you Vanguard, I can have the retirement I always wanted." Big smile, They'll be interested, you are far to be ordinary and what you do is good for a lot of people.



Edited by fatt - 01/24/2019 at 10:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 4:17am
That sounds crazy. If people really need to pay money to play a match with someone, then the US table tennis society is f*cked up. Sounds like a 2000 player is some god that can take money from someone who is a bit below them.

Edited by Tt Gold - 01/25/2019 at 5:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 7:28am
Yeah, these problems would make sense in a rural area but San Antonio. That's a big city. I know the US TT community is small but that's still hard to fathom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 7:44am
There is a problem everywhere that it is hard to become better as an adult, cause it is hard to participate in organised trianing with a coach since there is basically not so many of those. Have you asked your club or your club coach about starting an adult group? 

I am a part time coach for kids and have been for years, but i feel that kids listen bad and do not fight so hard. So it takes alot of my energy without getting so much back all of the times. i also feel that i miss being in a training group and to get attention and help from a coach, but since i am an adult it is hard to get that. 

So because of these factors i have thought about starting an adult group. We will try it out and have our first training this monday. I am looking forward to it. The guys i am going to train also mostly play matches, but when you talk to them separatly surprising many say that thy want to do more exercises. Maybe it is the same in your case and you need to communicate more. 

I think you really need a coach. Technique is not everything, but if your techniqe is to bad it really limit how fast you develop and how good you can become. 

I agree with TT Gold. I think it sounds strange if you need to pay money to play a match against some. I think it sound more reasonable if ypu pay them to train you. But a random 2000 player without any coaching experience i think is barely worth your money since i do not think they have enough knowledge and experience to help you. 

I am also interesting in if you have tried multiball with someone, or though about buying a robot or return board and how much you practice your serve. Developing your serve can get you up several levels very fast. 

And if you only playing guys that are not as good as you, you need to do the exercise as hard as possible for you and as easy as possible for him. By doing so, you will get good practice aswell. I only practice with players that is not as good as me, but it is still possible to become better if you work together and adapt the exercises. 

I hope it will work out for you. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YoAss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 8:06am
Getting adult training (and getting adults to train) is challenging indeed.

I have that issue as well.  Being the club manager, I've tried to get adult trainings off the ground.  That took some investments, of course, so it started with getting a group of people interested.

My hope was that if I'd made them feel the training had value (by charging a part of the training cost) they'd get extra motivated to show up.  On time.  And motivated to get the most out of it.  Because you don't need just a trainer, you need motivated training partners that actually show up.  On time.

It worked for a while, then petered out, and at some point in time I felt it became unreasonable for the club to invest that heavily in something utilized by such a small number of club members.  So I pulled the plug.

Instead, I've gone one on one with the more motivated players.  Instead of free hitting, we're doing focused training - service, third ball, technique (flicks, counterspin, ...), footwork and movement (falkenberg-style), bh/fh connection, these things.  We've also took the effort of setting up the robot more often, configuring it for a specific drill and nudging players to hit against it for a while.

Your words about training between different skill levels are spot on.  There are always reachable, worthwile goals in training, even against a training partner that cannot really pressure you or a partner that severely outguns you.

It's no substitute for a good actual trainer, thinking up a good training schedule and monitoring your development, but you can get somewhere with a few motivated training partners and putting in the necessary focus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 8:26am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

That sounds crazy. If people really need to pay money to play a match with someone, then the US table tennis society is f*cked up. Sounds like a 2000 player is some god that can take money from someone who is a bit below them.


I have never paid anyone to play me before in the USA. Sometimes, we did handicap matches for money in Nigeria but I suspect I am strong enough right now that I would be the one asked to give handicaps in some situations.

You do not seem to be the kind of person who takes time to understand before making strong comments. Many of the things you are reading need to be.given a broader context to understand them. Over 2000 could easily be 2400 and yes it can be worth paying a 2400 player to play you as often such play will come with some coaching.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 8:31am
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

There is a problem everywhere that it is hard to become better as an adult, cause it is hard to participate in organised trianing with a coach since there is basically not so many of those. Have you asked your club or your club coach about starting an adult group? 

I am a part time coach for kids and have been for years, but i feel that kids listen bad and do not fight so hard. So it takes alot of my energy without getting so much back all of the times. i also feel that i miss being in a training group and to get attention and help from a coach, but since i am an adult it is hard to get that. 

So because of these factors i have thought about starting an adult group. We will try it out and have our first training this monday. I am looking forward to it. The guys i am going to train also mostly play matches, but when you talk to them separatly surprising many say that thy want to do more exercises. Maybe it is the same in your case and you need to communicate more. 

I think you really need a coach. Technique is not everything, but if your techniqe is to bad it really limit how fast you develop and how good you can become. 

I agree with TT Gold. I think it sounds strange if you need to pay money to play a match against some. I think it sound more reasonable if ypu pay them to train you. But a random 2000 player without any coaching experience i think is barely worth your money since i do not think they have enough knowledge and experience to help you. 

I am also interesting in if you have tried multiball with someone, or though about buying a robot or return board and how much you practice your serve. Developing your serve can get you up several levels very fast. 

And if you only playing guys that are not as good as you, you need to do the exercise as hard as possible for you and as easy as possible for him. By doing so, you will get good practice aswell. I only practice with players that is not as good as me, but it is still possible to become better if you work together and adapt the exercises. 

I hope it will work out for you. 


Again, Mark is in his 60s. That is a problem by itself but most of us agree that Mark hits and controls the ball well enough for this not to be an issue. The real issue is that he is the strongest player where he lives and he isn't getting enough match relevant practice against players at a higher level.

These are things you know about him of you have been on the forum for a long time. His achievements are already impressive. But having seen BRS and watched how he improved, I came to appreciate the importance of having people or situations that can stretch you. If you can't find stronger opponents you need someone who feeds really good multi ball and you need someone who understands sports and training psychology enough to solve some of your problems.   But all these things wlare hard at the relevant level if you don't even have the right quality of opponents.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 8:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

That sounds crazy. If people really need to pay money to play a match with someone, then the US table tennis society is f*cked up. Sounds like a 2000 player is some god that can take money from someone who is a bit below them.


I have never paid anyone to play me before in the USA. Sometimes, we did handicap matches for money in Nigeria but I suspect I am strong enough right now that I would be the one asked to give handicaps in some situations.

You do not seem to be the kind of person who takes time to understand before making strong comments. Many of the things you are reading need to be.given a broader context to understand them. Over 2000 could easily be 2400 and yes it can be worth paying a 2400 player to play you as often such play will come with some coaching.
" Bet money with people over 2000 in 3/5 matches, whatever they accept up to $10 a match maybe?"- fatt That's why I wrote my comment. Even if they are 2400 you'll won't get anything out of it. You don't have the understanding what is happening when they serve and so on. So it's not a good investment. But I don't want to keep talking about this stuff. From what I understood, Mark not only wants to reach 2000, but he wants to reach it in a certain way. With proper technique and playing like an aggressive two winged looper. But you have to be realistic. Not everyone is the same. People have different outside factors, that have to be taken into consideration. Age, weight, health and many other things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 8:52am
One main thing is, you need to move someplace that has a club or multiple clubs open all day everyday. I ran into this problem in the Tampa area. When the clubs are only open 4 or 5 days a week, only open for 2 or 3 hours a day, and have a limited number of tables, its difficult to get the 2000+ level players to play with players 200 or 300 points or more lower than them. Those limits make the club play time more valuable, hence its more difficult to get them to use the little bit of time they have to play with lower players. 

Another thing that I ran into a lot is that around 20% of the higher players didn't want to play me simply because they didn't want to practice against pimple out rubber. Also, it is difficult to find a coach who knows how to teach pimple out technique, strategy, and tactics. Once of my best coaches, simply turned down long pimple players who asked for lessons. He told me hat he didn't feel qualified to train them. And this is 2500-2600 or higher level player and very competent coach. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 10:36am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

That sounds crazy. If people really need to pay money to play a match with someone, then the US table tennis society is f*cked up. Sounds like a 2000 player is some god that can take money from someone who is a bit below them.
 

I have never paid anyone to play me before in the USA. Sometimes, we did handicap matches for money in Nigeria but I suspect I am strong enough right now that I would be the one asked to give handicaps in some situations. 

You do not seem to be the kind of person who takes time to understand before making strong comments. Many of the things you are reading need to be.given a broader context to understand them. Over 2000 could easily be 2400 and yes it can be worth paying a 2400 player to play you as often such play will come with some coaching.
" Bet money with people over 2000 in 3/5 matches, whatever they accept up to $10 a match maybe?"- fatt That's why I wrote my comment. Even if they are 2400 you'll won't get anything out of it. You don't have the understanding what is happening when they serve and so on. So it's not a good investment. But I don't want to keep talking about this stuff. From what I understood, Mark not only wants to reach 2000, but he wants to reach it in a certain way. With proper technique and playing like an aggressive two winged looper. But you have to be realistic. Not everyone is the same. People have different outside factors, that have to be taken into consideration. Age, weight, health and many other things.
I understand ttgold's position, his seriousness and dedication at training are to me real and give him the right to beat me up when I spit a silly dream out like a teenager having fun on a very serious matter. He is at the right place, his! I respect that.

Silly dream? maybe, but this is America where the apparent silly may suddenly shift into another dimension and pop out as flabbergasting stuff that happens.

A glass of wine in hand, I was once at my house with my wife, daughters and neighbors around live tv and I heard a man saying :"If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible; who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time; who still questions the power of our democracy, tonight is your answer." I cried like a baby; granted, it was not the 1st glass but still...

In a country where stuff like that can happen, mjamja can make the plan work and if well executed, in no time 2k+ people will compete to be in his calendar slot and will even start paying to play him, that's the real secret goal, 2k+ players starting to bid on the slots; OK I am pushing it now... a public calendar and now bidding software on top? come on, now that's silly; or is it? Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 10:50am
YoAss. I found that strange. I think this is a real possibility for adult players so i would be surprised if they do not want to start with this and try their best. I do not think they will get a opportunity like this again. I hope they do not waste the opportunity. We will see.

Nextlevel. I know that we do not have the same opinion here, maybe due to different experiences. And it is okay to have different opinions. I still think it is better to have a good coach and play with players below your level. I think you will benefit more from this than having no coach and play with better players.  I still think a player always need to take responsibilty for his own developement. To many times when my students play with worse players they just do not try. If they change the exercises so it will be hard for them and easy for the opponent and adapt the tempo you can still benefit from playing worse playeers. But of course the gap in level can not be too big and a mix would proably be the best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

YoAss. I found that strange. I think this is a real possibility for adult players so i would be surprised if they do not want to start with this and try their best. I do not think they will get a opportunity like this again. I hope they do not waste the opportunity. We will see.

Nextlevel. I know that we do not have the same opinion here, maybe due to different experiences. And it is okay to have different opinions. I still think it is better to have a good coach and play with players below your level. I think you will benefit more from this than having no coach and play with better players.  I still think a player always need to take responsibilty for his own developement. To many times when my students play with worse players they just do not try. If they change the exercises so it will be hard for them and easy for the opponent and adapt the tempo you can still benefit from playing worse playeers. But of course the gap in level can not be too big and a mix would proably be the best.

There is quite a bit of misunderstanding and resulting emotions in this thread simply due to the fact that our good friends from Europe do not understand how TT in the US looks for a lot of posters here, 'mjamja' included.   

I highly suspect 'mjamja' does not have access to coach in his club. To clarify, when people reference 'TT club' in US, it is most likely a school gym or church basement where local players can meet and play for a couple of hours once or twice a week.  That's it. No coaches, no lessons, probably no leagues either. 'mjamja' is likely a best player in there, with a sizable skill gap between him and everyone else.  

Not everyone here is in the same boat, players in CA/NY/NJ/MD are much better off, at least in major metro areas. That's why NextLevel, BRS and others keep saying that he needs to move closer to a major TT area to get regular access to coaches, better players, tournaments and such. 

Yes, it is better to have good coach. What do you do if there is none within 2 hour driving distance? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 11:28am
Wow. I never really expected this kind of response. I really appreciate all the good advice and especially the sincere support for my attempt to reach the goal.

It really comes down to the fact that I now have other things in my life I want to do besides TT (which I have really focused on the last 7 years). I thought I had a plan to do those things and do even more serious work on TT but it just did not work the way I thought.

For the near future I am going to make traveling, hiking, and paddling in some of the most scenic places in the US my prority. I still love TT and will take every opprtunity to play at clubs in areas I travel through. However, my destinations and scheduling are going to be designed more for those other activities and not dictated by TT.

I do think that some of the scenic areas I must see include
ICC, Triamgle TT, MDTTC, and Weschester TT. But more to see the scenery than to put in serious training.

Again, thanks to all for your help and support. I still plan to make you guys laugh every now and then. And you will get to see shadow practice videos from some very scenic areas.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 11:34am
@ ttgold a few things about US TT.

There is no club spirit here. It's just a bunch of individuals showing up to get their objectives met in a very limited time. Like everything about america the design creates a negative cycle where people need to be selfish to get anywhere, and everyone's selfishness makes everyone else want to be more selfish themselves.

Also, white old man privilege is very real in life, but not so much in TT. Which I find refreshing really. But when someone like me or Mark shows up, people make a rational assumption that we stink. Sometimes you have to enter a few tournaments at the club, and if people play you there and see you are okay, then when you come to open play they know you.

It can just be very hard or impossible to break into the group at a new club. Some people have their training partners and simply are not willing to train with anyone else. Even at clubs with a challenge system, sone players try to refuse to let you wait on their table. And in most of the US there is only one club. You can't just go somewhere else. So it takes a certain amount of persistence, and maybe a bad personality, to break through. I don't mind if people think I'm an asshole, because a lot of times I am. And I am really forward about asking people to play, or asking to schedule a training time. But for people who are less rude or forward, however you want to say it, they may get blown off a couple times and give up.

I went to a club last night. This is a strong TT area (DC metro) and there was a range of players there from maybe 1600 - 2300. I started with a guy maybe 200 points below me. Then a somewhat worse player called next on the table. So I went back and forth between those two for five matches, then I gave up the table. Two of the three hours were gone. I looked at the other tables (it's a six table club) and two had 2200s playing each other. I could have called next on one of them but I didn't. Why? Because I know they don't want to change to playing me from a peer. Because I will have to wait 20 - 30 minutes and then go up 500 points in opponent level and I won't be able to adjust in three short sets (and they would be short). Then I've wasted 50 minutes and I still have to go to the grocery store before I go home, eat shower, etc and get up to start work at 7:30 am the next day. So screw it.

Edited by BRS - 01/25/2019 at 11:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 12:09pm
How is asking people to play an asshole thing to do? My goodness that's perfectly normal and how it goes all over the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 12:16pm
I wonder if Mark would consider taking a year to kayak to Vietnam.
We need to build a ball to keep the illegal servers from entering our tournaments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

@ ttgold a few things about US TT.

There is no club spirit here. It's just a bunch of individuals showing up to get their objectives met in a very limited time. Like everything about america the design creates a negative cycle where people need to be selfish to get anywhere, and everyone's selfishness makes everyone else want to be more selfish themselves.

Also, white old man privilege is very real in life, but not so much in TT. Which I find refreshing really. But when someone like me or Mark shows up, people make a rational assumption that we stink. Sometimes you have to enter a few tournaments at the club, and if people play you there and see you are okay, then when you come to open play they know you. 

It can just be very hard or impossible to break into the group at a new club. Some people have their training partners and simply are not willing to train with anyone else. Even at clubs with a challenge system, sone players try to refuse to let you wait on their table. And in most of the US there is only one club. You can't just go somewhere else. So it takes a certain amount of persistence, and maybe a bad personality, to break through. I don't mind if people think I'm an asshole, because a lot of times I am. And I am really forward about asking people to play, or asking to schedule a training time. But for people who are less rude or forward, however you want to say it, they may get blown off a couple times and give up.

I went to a club last night. This is a strong TT area (DC metro) and there was a range of players there from maybe 1600 - 2300. I started with a guy maybe 200 points below me. Then a somewhat worse player called next on the table. So I went back and forth between those two for five matches, then I gave up the table. Two of the three hours were gone. I looked at the other tables (it's a six table club) and two had 2200s playing each other. I could have called next on one of them but I didn't. Why? Because I know they don't want to change to playing me from a peer. Because I will have to wait 20 - 30 minutes and then go up 500 points in opponent level and I won't be able to adjust in three short sets (and they would be short). Then I've wasted 50 minutes and I still have to go to the grocery store before I go home, eat shower, etc and get up to start work at 7:30 am the next day. So screw it.
+1
"screw it" sums up pretty good when thinking of those middle age punks playing middle school dominant males in their echo chamber. The sad part is they practice together the same thing the same way over the years and play the same matches with the same tactics over and over, they don't get any better, only older, but they think they are because somehow the perception that over time they better understand the game and life in general make them feel so; it is plain sad, a total waste for all. 
The American dominant TT club model does not work for the middle aged intermediate players who are working full time, have a family but want to get better anyway. It just works for rich kids, club owners, private lessons seekers and coaches. Clubs are not creative, they rest on what they think is the way to go because everybody else does the same, there is no creativity, no incentive, no willpower to try something new because they think it won't generate profits or they are simply lazy. mmmhhh...I might be onto something here...Occam's razor anybody? yes, "lazy" is probably the key word, no need to dig any deeper.

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