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Hard Rubber More Spin?

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    Posted: 04/05/2011 at 5:25am
is it true that the more the hardness the rubber than the more lethal spin that it can produce?

what is the disadvantage of using hard rubber compare to soft rubber?

i normally like to use soft rubber... but i think i need to change to hard rubber to produce more spin with my fh. now i use tenergy 05 fx at my fh.
Now i use DHS Hking 655 but i miss my the moments i use dr neubaeur firewall plus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 5:52am
hard rubbers and mid rubbers have more spin and they are consistent than soft rubbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRobot99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 6:05am
Not to mention power production is easier with a harder sponge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote atv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 6:18am
Hard rubbers are usually difficult to control, it need quite some training to let the ball sink through the sponge to the blade during every contact, especially when looping, and that is the only way to generate the lethal spin.

To change from soft rubber to hard rubber would need more accurate, more practiced and more explosive FH stokes and you need to make some changes to the movement of forearm, contact angle, wrist and brushing/hitting ratio, and more importantly, do more practice to increase dewll time, which is not a big problem when you are using a soft rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 6:32am
then just use mid rubbers it's better

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stavros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 7:07am
Harder rubbers produce more spin. Softer rubbers produce easier spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 7:10am
hey stavros is calibra lt easy to use if I already use calibra lt sound max?do I have to adjust?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mayuki24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 7:26am
i think soft rubbers would produce much spin than the harder ones because of the simple logic, Hard sponge = power but less spin because the ball would bounce at a shorter time and would not have more dwell time. Soft sponge = less power but much spin and have a greater dwell time because of the softness of the sponge which would grip the ball into the rubber more than the hard ones it just lack power though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTboy07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 7:31am
true with soft rubbers, the ball will sink into the sponge longer thus having longer dwell time creating more spin and having more control. while the hard ones will be faster and more suitable for power play because of the harder sponge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mayuki24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 8:12am
For the simple logic here it is.

Hard sponge = Fast, less spin and lesser dwell time and a bit harder to control

Soft sponge = a bit slow, much spin and having more dwell time and easier to control with. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stavros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 8:43am
Originally posted by ninglei23 ninglei23 wrote:

hey stavros is calibra lt easy to use if I already use calibra lt sound max?do I have to adjust?

I prefer Calibra LT. Harder, faster, spinier lasts longer but it's more difficult to control. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nashron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 8:49am
I hv observed the specification of harder rubber, their specification is more spin than soft rubber, for example between tenergy 05fx vs tenergy 05, sriver vs sriver fx, soft rubber more speed. Correct me if i am wrong.
Now i use DHS Hking 655 but i miss my the moments i use dr neubaeur firewall plus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 8:50am
what is the sponge thickness that you perfer for me I am an improving player with good forehand but no that consistent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 9:00am
ninglei23, you have asked the same question in different threads.  To reiterate, you should be using 1.5mm or 1.8mm.  My suggestion is to use a soft sponge in that thickness.  You may find that it's easier to control and more fun to play.  

If one considers what happens at the ball contact, the ball sinks a bit deeper into soft sponge than hard sponge with the same topsheet and pips geometry.  The force of the stroke creates more of a tension against the ball that is deeper into the sponge than one that is shallower.  That tension is converted into spin.  If the tension is greater because the dwell time of the ball on the racket face is longer, it should generate more spin on the rebound if all the other variables are equal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 9:04am
do I really have to use big slam?Disapprove another rubber that I will have to adjust..........haixt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 9:28am
You'll adjust.  No, you don't HAVE to use Big Slam.  There are other rubbers like Mark V that will work well.  Original Sriver 1.5mm is also an option as is Donic Vario 1.5mm.

I recommend Big Slam because many, including me, find it a fun rubber to use.  Great feel, very good control, loud glue-like pop.  

You'll adjust.  It's not like going from Baracuda to OX long pips.  

But do as you will.  The forum is just here to comment and help advise.  Nobody is forcing anybody to to anything.

BTW, what does your coach have to say about your equipment?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 9:36am
he say's that it's a good set up and very light.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 9:38am
i'll try the donic f3 big slam i triend it already and it's good I just don't like rubber's that are slower than lt sound..sorry silver hair..and thank you. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 9:39am
Originally posted by atv atv wrote:

Hard rubbers are usually difficult to control, it need quite some training to let the ball sink through the sponge to the blade during every contact, especially when looping, and that is the only way to generate the lethal spin.

To change from soft rubber to hard rubber would need more accurate, more practiced and more explosive FH stokes and you need to make some changes to the movement of forearm, contact angle, wrist and brushing/hitting ratio, and more importantly, do more practice to increase dewll time, which is not a big problem when you are using a soft rubber.


+1111111111111111111111

Well said. The reason that many companies produce a "soft sponge" version of favorites (like F3, S3, Calibra Sound, Sriver FX) is so that normal humans with less than pro technique can enjoy some of the benefits of a particular rubber, while not requiring that every single shot have perfect footwork, handspeed, followthrough etc.


sidenote:

if you gave a 14 year old the keys to a ferrari, it's likely that he could drive fast.

...but he would crash a lot.

This is my often used simile for OFF+ rubber and blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pablogilberto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 9:48am
Ninglei - it's not the equipment - it's  you and your technique.Evil Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 9:53am
that's it!that's why I don't want to change my rubber.OKAY?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stoic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 9:59am

From my experience and logic aside, I think that the hardness of the rubber does not necessarily effect the amount of spin it can produce.

H3 provincial being the hardest rubber I have used, was also one of the spinniest. But Adidas R6 is the softest rubber I have used, and is also one of the spinniest. Perhaps the perceived difference in spin is in fact just a different trajectory. Soft rubbers tend to produce a higher flight curve, which may look like more spin than a lower curve.
 
The way we all perceive the spin on a ball will vary, therefore a better way to measure spin is required to put this debate to the test. Anyone know of a spin measuring method?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nashron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 10:44am
Soft rubber will rebound faster than hard rubber when contact, will create more speed than spin?
Now i use DHS Hking 655 but i miss my the moments i use dr neubaeur firewall plus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cicis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 12:28pm
Soft sponge (usually grippy) = you have to let the ball sink for it to generate spin
Hard sponge (usually tacky) = you have to brush the ball for it to generate spin

is it more proper to say that generating spin on each type of rubbers requires different strokes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stoic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by nashron nashron wrote:

Soft rubber will rebound faster than hard rubber when contact, will create more speed than spin?
 
Soft rubbers allow the ball to sink into the sponge more thereby reducing the rebound speed. The ball rebounds off a hard rubber faster than a soft rubber. Imagine hitting the ball against a wall compared with a cushion. The ball will accelerate faster off of a hard rubber,
 
The rebound speed however does not equate with the speed of the rubber, this is a different type of speed. For example a sheet of Bryce allows the ball to sink into the rubber more than H3, but also has a bigger catapult effect.
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 2:01pm
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hard rubbers and mid rubbers have more spin and they are consistent than soft rubbers 

So much non sense!!!!  The statement is too general which makes it invalid.  Not all hard rubbers are faster than soft rubbers.  Why do hard rubbers produce more spin?  I am not saying that they can't but there is an underlying reason as to why some rubbers produce more spin than others.  It really isn't a hard or soft issue.   

I can buy a chinese top sheet and put soft or hard rubbers underneath it.  That would eliminate the different in friction.   Now tell me why a soft or hard rubber will generate more spin with the same top sheet?

Leading question.  To you boost or speed glue your chinese rubbers to make them harder?

I think consistency is up to the player preferences and abilities.  

Softer rubber will provide more dwell time.  I agree but why?

Quote
Soft sponge (usually grippy) = you have to let the ball sink for it to generate spin
Hard sponge (usually tacky) = you have to brush the ball for it to generate spin
Yes.

Quote
is it more proper to say that generating spin on each type of rubbers requires different strokes?
Yes, if you are trying to return the ball at the same trajectory.

What really make a rubber fast is not whether it is hard or soft but how fast it will return to its original shape during the impact.  This is a function of its internal friction which affects the coefficient of restitution .
If a hard and soft rubber are hitting the same ball at the same speed the two rubbers will need to absorb the same amount of energy.  What will make one rubber faster than the other is how much energy it returns to the ball.  To return energy to the ball the rubber must spring back fast enough to stay in contact with the ball for as long ( distance wise ) as possible.  As soon as the ball leaves the rubber it the rubber can not return any more energy to the ball.  A harder rubber will not compress as far as a soft rubber when hitting the same ball.  For the two rubbers to return the same amount of energy the ball must be going at the same speed after impact.  The harder rubber must accelerate the ball quicker in a shorter distance than the  software rubber.  It is possible.  I won't make general statements.  A hard super ball is very hard and has a very high coefficient of restitution.  

Now I wonder why hard Chinese rubbers have to be so darn thick?  I think this is why I am an Apollo fan. I can order 1.8mm Apollo.
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 3:43pm
My experience is, hard sponge rubbers (assuming everything else is equal) are capable of generating more spin and speed then soft sponge rubbers, but it is easier to do it with a soft sponge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Congoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 4:54pm
Speedplay is right.

How do you generate spin? Two ways, skim the ball and sink the ball in the rubber. There's a video of Waldner doing two types of top spin. Skim, and really hit the ball hard to sink the ball in the rubber.

Hard rubber (Chinese rubber):
Generally a hard sponge, because it has MORE POTENTIAL to create spin, but hard to do so.
Non-scientific example/figure:
Spin range for hard rubber is: 50-250 RPS
You can't flick your wrist to generate spin. Try hardness 40 it feels like a freaking brick.

Soft rubber (Western rubber):
Generally software rubber, more springy. Much easier to generate spin, because it doesn't take much to sink the ball in the rubber, but spin range is lower.
Spin range for soft rubber is: 10-150 RPS

So...Pros and Cons:

Hard rubber:
+ Can generate a lot of spin but gotta hit the ball hard, so that means your forms has to be right (have you seen the chinese nationals play? they all use 40 hardness rubbers)
- Hard rubber is not as good at generating spin for short plays (GENERALLY SPEAKING). Tackiness is there trying to offset that problem.

Soft rubber:
+ can easily generate spin, no "proper" form is required. Flick your wrist and generate spin, period.
- Cannot generate as much spin as hard sponges.

Again, very general comparison, there are many other factors involved too.

Edit: Btw, the reason you generate more spin with hard rubber is it takes much more power to compress the rubber (assuming you compress it so hard so the ball is almost in contact with the blade, it would take more to compress a hard rubber than a soft rubber)


Edited by Congoman - 04/05/2011 at 8:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by Congoman Congoman wrote:

Speedplay is right.

How do you generate spin? Two ways, skim the ball and sink the ball in the rubber. There's a video of Waldner doing two types of top spin. Skim, and really hit the ball hard to sink the ball in the rubber.

Hard rubber (Chinese rubber):
Generally a hard sponge, because it has MORE POTENTIAL to create spin, but hard to do so.
Non-scientific example/figure:
Spin range for hard rubber is: 50-250 RPM
You can't flick your wrist to generate spin. Try hardness 40 it feels like a freaking brick.

Soft rubber (Western rubber):
Generally software rubber, more springy. Much easier to generate spin, because it doesn't take much to sink the ball in the rubber, but spin range is lower.
Spin range for soft rubber is: 10-150 RPM

So...Pros and Cons:

Hard rubber:
+ Can generate a lot of spin but gotta hit the ball hard, so that means your forms has to be right (have you seen the chinese nationals play? they all use 40 hardness rubbers)
- Hard rubber is not as good at generating spin for short plays (GENERALLY SPEAKING). Tackiness is there trying to offset that problem.

Soft rubber:
+ can easily generate spin, no "proper" form is required. Flick your wrist and generate spin, period.
- Cannot generate as much spin as hard sponges.

Again, very general comparison, there are many other factors involved too.

Edit: Btw, the reason you generate more spin with hard rubber is it takes much more power to compress the rubber (assuming you compress it so hard so the ball is almost in contact with the blade, it would take more to compress a hard rubber than a soft rubber)

Could you provide some references?  Especially references to the rate of spin and info to illustrate what you've said?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2011 at 5:53pm
More non sense!
If there is no spring or stretch across the surface of the rubber the spin is limited by the tangential speed of the paddle.   The question then is which rubber provides more surface stretch or spring, hard or soft?

Potential doesn't spin balls.   I can brush loop with soft rubbers too.  I can brush loop with T05 or Mark V.
When evaluating rubbers you need to remove the influence of technique and the human element.
The question should be what rubber will generate the most spin with the same stroke.

Apparently I can spin a ball with the flick of my wrist with soft rubber but can't with hard rubber.  Yet the hard rubber generates more spin.  ??????

Congoman, you must think EU-JP players are very lame to only achieve 150 rpm.   6000 RPM ( 100 RPS ) is closer to the real number.  On Greg Letts site he says 150 RPS ( 9000 RPM ) but I doubt everyone can spin the ball that fast.  BTW, 250 RPM is very slow.

I have a video some where that shows a looper and chopper playing in front of high speed cameras.  The video indicates the choppers ball is rotating at 137 RPS.   The looper must at least match that speed or the ball will go into the net.


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