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Heavy weight training and TT coexist?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:40pm
Show me a body builder who has won a major TT tournament in the last 20 or 30 years. Perhaps I will change my mind about this but I need evidence.

The members of the CNT do have an exercise regime (legs, core), but it is not focused on gaining massive muscles.


FdT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

Show me a body builder who has won a major TT tournament in the last 20 or 30 years. Perhaps I will change my mind about this but I need evidence.

The members of the CNT do have an exercise regime (legs, core), but it is not focused on gaining massive muscles.


FdT



Weightlifting = bodybuilding ?

Again, to gain any kind of appreciable mass like a real bodybuilder... would take tons of effort and dedication. You do not accidentally turn into the hulk overnight! 

I've seen plenty of FAT people playing at higher levels, over 2000 (with almost as many pounds as rating points!). And fat is even more useless than excess muscle... lol 

If you dont think an elite Olympic lifter for instance, is more explosive than ANY pro tt player -- must be crazy! Those guys try to stay within the lowest weight category they can, so excess weight is minimized. Is that kind of lifting necessary for tt? Of course not! But to say their gained attributes from lifting would be detrimental to tt seems off to me. What about a pro NFL running back? Olympic sprinter? 

Even if you disagree, those are extreme examples of elite level athletes. Casuals doing the same sports reach nowhere near the same levels. Just as tt players dont reach the same level as pros. So to me those even each other out. You won't be too great at tt or at powerlifting, so one wont much bother the other. It only matters when talking about the few top % 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 3:47pm
"If you dont think an elite Olympic lifter for instance, is more explosive than ANY pro tt player -- must be crazy! "

TT is more than having explosive shots. You need the speed to get to the right spot (footwork) and then you can execute the EXPLOSIVE shot. You are missing the point I was trying to make. You are looking at a small aspect of the game a opposed to looking at the number of things required to be a good/successful player. You are dismissing agility, quickness, and flexibility. If you don't think those are important to TT then YOU are crazy!

FdT


Edited by Fulanodetal - 02/06/2019 at 3:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"If you dont think an elite Olympic lifter for instance, is more explosive than ANY pro tt player -- must be crazy! "

TT is more than having explosive shots. You need the speed to get to the right spot (footwork) and then you can execute the EXPLOSIVE shot. You are missing the point I was trying to make. You are looking at a small aspect of the game a opposed to looking at the number of things required to be a good/successful player. You are dismissing agility, quickness, and flexibility. If you don't think those are important to TT then YOU are crazy!

FdT

No, I'm saying the elite lifter would be  better  at ALL of those aspects. As in every single area, aside from maybe a gimmicky footwork drill like stepping back and forth over a ball etc. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 5:09pm
"No, I'm saying the elite lifter would be  better  at ALL of those aspects. As in every single area, aside from maybe a gimmicky footwork drill like stepping back and forth over a ball etc. "

There was a game in which one of the best members of our table tennis club (lean with very good skills: Id say 2000 rated at least) played a pro football player (big muscle guy with delusions of being a good TT player). This friendly game was broadcast. Make a wild guess who won that game? Hint: not the big bulky pro.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"No, I'm saying the elite lifter would be  better  at ALL of those aspects. As in every single area, aside from maybe a gimmicky footwork drill like stepping back and forth over a ball etc. "

There was a game in which one of the best members of our table tennis club (lean with very good skills: Id say 2000 rated at least) played a pro football player (big muscle guy with delusions of being a good TT player). This friendly game was broadcast. Make a wild guess who won that game? Hint: not the big bulky pro.

FdT

How does that prove weightlifting is bad for tt, exactly? Or is it a case of someone trained to play... playing against someone who only thought they were good? 

And how did we go from comparing athleticism from lifting to skill in a particular sport? The two are not the same. 

No different than when a weightlifter tries to fight a trained mma fighter -- oh I guess weightlifting is bad for fighting too!  Proper technique and correctly applied force is a vital element. 

If strength and all those attributes that are enhanced by lifting are detrimental... why do the top men beat the best women? Oh right, they have higher attributes in those same areas from genetics! 

When skill levels are equal, how is it you think the stronger, faster, more powerful player would lose exactly?


Edited by obesechopper - 02/06/2019 at 7:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 7:45pm
You won't get bulky working out unless you eat a significant caloric surplus.

Btw, almost all professional TT players work out in the gym. In fact now that the plastic ball is here strength is even more important. Just watch more of their training videos and you'll know how important they place strength and conditioning.

However, for amateurs the lowest hanging fruit is not physical strength but rather technique, so physical strength isn't all that important. For the professionals, every single little advantage they can squeeze out, they will!

That said, being stronger is a boon for life's many other aspects. :)

I heard from some very high level players that TT strokes are kinda similar to boxing in terms of principles?! I recently played with a super high level Cpen who taught me to adopt a fighting (boxing?!) mentality in table tennis rather than my usual chill mentality (i.e. laserlike focus on the ball, for attacking strokes, tighten the core with almost no arm takeback, and really focus all the energy on the moment of contact). I feel like my level instantly increased significantly after that little tidbit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 6:33am
If enhanced strength and power (trainable through lifting weights) weren't an advantage, then women would be equal to men in sports in general, including table tennis. They are not, so the advantage is obvious.

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 10:12am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

If enhanced strength and power (trainable through lifting weights) weren't an advantage, then women would be equal to men in sports in general, including table tennis. They are not, so the advantage is obvious.

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. 
it is a matter of balance, like a healthy diet.  too much of a good thing might end up being inefficient or even counter productive
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 12:55pm
"Weightlifting = bodybuilding ?"




All body builders ARE weight lifters, so, I don't know what you are complaining about. Exactly what is unreasonable about thinking of "bodybuilders" when someone says "weight lifting", when you have not defined your terms clearly?


"o different than when a weightlifter tries to fight a trained mma fighter -- oh I guess weightlifting is bad for fighting too!  Proper technique and correctly applied force is a vital element"

This is just garbled inarticulate nonsense I wont bother responding to it.

"If enhanced strength and power (trainable through lifting weights) weren't an advantage, then women would be equal to men in sports in general, including table tennis. They are not, so the advantage is obvious.

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. "

Again, more inarticulate, garbled argumentation. No one defined the terms. If you are NOW talking about doing SOME, moderate weight training, then yes, I would agree there should be some benefit...Oh wait, I already did mention it before, about pros doing some weight training. Except you just conveniently ignored it or did not bother to read, unless you have bad reading comprehension....


"The members of the CNT do have an exercise regime (legs, core), but it is not focused on gaining massive muscles.  FdT"


So if we are talking some weight training (legs, core) yeah I can see some benefits. But not bulking up.

Here are some clips showing some exercises specifically designed for TT that I think are definitely appropriate and beneficial....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxrLvooHocA&index=7&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arud6iG9nX8&index=1&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP



FdT



Edited by Fulanodetal - 02/07/2019 at 12:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 1:55pm
You are now reaching George Costanza-ish levels.... lol 

And btw, not all bodybuilders do lift weights ;) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 2:16pm
My friend Werner Schlager used to train in the gym as part of his training. The key for a table tennis player is to develop muscle strength and not muscle volume.. 

High number of repetition with lower weight = strength
Lower number of repetitions with higher weights = muscle volume..

Those who work out with heavier weight will develop more muscle mass while those using lower weight and higher repetitions will develop almost identical strength but smaller muscle volume.
Werner at his peak only had something like 2 or 3 percent body fat.. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

You don't see high level players with massive upper bodies. Can upper body strength training coexist with TT training? Over 25 years ago, I gave up lifting heavy weights, upper body training in particular, because I didn't want it to ruin my touch. I realized early this year that since the plastic ball already ruined my touch, I should return and enjoy heavy lifting. I'll soon compete in the WVC and Nationals. Next year I hope to compete in both the USATT Nationals and an age class (masters 2) powerlifting meet. Here's some video from my recent training.


I am interested in your statement about the plastic ball ruining your touch? Why? I still think touch is very, very important, or am I out of date on this too?

I remember this player at a San Antonio tournament who looked like he spent more time in the weight room than table tennis table, he could loop anything....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"Weightlifting = bodybuilding ?"




All body builders ARE weight lifters, so, I don't know what you are complaining about. Exactly what is unreasonable about thinking of "bodybuilders" when someone says "weight lifting", when you have not defined your terms clearly?


"o different than when a weightlifter tries to fight a trained mma fighter -- oh I guess weightlifting is bad for fighting too!  Proper technique and correctly applied force is a vital element"

This is just garbled inarticulate nonsense I wont bother responding to it.

"If enhanced strength and power (trainable through lifting weights) weren't an advantage, then women would be equal to men in sports in general, including table tennis. They are not, so the advantage is obvious.

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. "

Again, more inarticulate, garbled argumentation. No one defined the terms. If you are NOW talking about doing SOME, moderate weight training, then yes, I would agree there should be some benefit...Oh wait, I already did mention it before, about pros doing some weight training. Except you just conveniently ignored it or did not bother to read, unless you have bad reading comprehension....


"The members of the CNT do have an exercise regime (legs, core), but it is not focused on gaining massive muscles.  FdT"


So if we are talking some weight training (legs, core) yeah I can see some benefits. But not bulking up.

Here are some clips showing some exercises specifically designed for TT that I think are definitely appropriate and beneficial....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxrLvooHocA&index=7&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arud6iG9nX8&index=1&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP



FdT


Weightlifting is a sport consisting of the snatch and clean and jerk. No bodybuilders are weight lifters pretty much, entirely different disciplines. Note the difference between weightlifting and lifting weights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My friend Werner Schlager used to train in the gym as part of his training. The key for a table tennis player is to develop muscle strength and not muscle volume.. 

High number of repetition with lower weight = strength
Lower number of repetitions with higher weights = muscle volume..

Those who work out with heavier weight will develop more muscle mass while those using lower weight and higher repetitions will develop almost identical strength but smaller muscle volume.
Werner at his peak only had something like 2 or 3 percent body fat.. 

This is exactly the wrong way round. Strength is devloped more efficiently with higher weights and lower reps. Hypertrophy (size) with lower weight and higher reps. This is entirely uncontroversial in exercise science.

Also no he wasn't 2 or 3 per cent body fat. Not even close. At his absolute peak, Wang Liqin was maybe 8-9%. I think Werner was telling you porkies. Bodybuilders on competition day usually do not get to 2-3% and they are in that condition for a matter of hours only and their whole life is built around that. 

I would be pretty shocked if Werner was ever less than 10.


Edited by FruitLoop - 02/07/2019 at 8:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nachalnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 10:15pm
I did weightlifting for most of my life. I happened to have pretty good genetics for muscle mass so I’m about 230 lbs with about 20% body fat. I also have a black belt in karate and was fighting for a while. I retired from karate 10 years ago and do TT for cardio. One advantage of being big and muscular with a broken nose and knuckles  is that your opponents at the tournaments are surprisingly nice and polite with you. You can pick up a few points this wayWinkWinkWink
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Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I am interested in your statement about the plastic ball ruining your touch? Why? I still think touch is very, very important, or am I out of date on this too?

I remember this player at a San Antonio tournament who looked like he spent more time in the weight room than table tennis table, he could loop anything....
I used to hit with a very closed contact angle. I mostly brushed the ball to produce high spin effects. The plastic ball slips off the rubber with my former strokes so I have to open the racket face more. It's a new stroke for me - a US national champion suggested I should hit this way many years ago. Also, when an opponent makes a topspin attack and I decide to block and place, I instinctively adjust my racket angle and timing based on the previous ball and it often results in my blocking into the net. 

btw, I figured out how to get a good strength workout and play table tennis at the same time. I hope to take video tomorrow.


Edited by heavyspin - 02/07/2019 at 11:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2019 at 12:48am
So I tested how my TT game would be affected by heavy upper body lifting just 1 to 2 minutes before playing. Since there's no bench press available I substituted with a version of push-ups. Doing these push-ups and being considerably overweight allows me to reap the benefits of strength building by naturally adding a significant amount of resistance to the exercise (people in good shape can't take advantage of this luxury).

I challenged a mid 1700's version of Pushblocker with the added rule as follows. I do a set of push-ups before each game and the match is best of 3 (wanted to avoid the possibility of 5 sets). It caused a slight affect in game 1 and my strokes were stiffer early in game 2. By the middle of game 2, it felt normal again and I won comfortably.

I conclude that if one takes a day off from upper body lifting before important matches, he should be unaffected.



Edited by heavyspin - 02/09/2019 at 12:51am
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For higher levels of tt players, there comes a point where weight training increases up to the point where he is lifting heavy weights then decreases after some time  Lifting weights in tt as a proper program does not mean lifting the same amount of weight all year round. It changes depending on the time of how far from the major competition you are. Also, lifting weights does not automatically make you as big as those pro bodybuilders. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joo Se Kev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2019 at 7:31am
Just wanted to chime in and say how much I'm enjoying this conversation. Really inspiring me to get to work on the second edition of my book!

I still firmly believe proper resistance training should be a part of every table tennis players training regimen. But, as I state in the book, it shouldn't be the ONLY part. It's just one piece of the puzzle. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2019 at 12:32pm
Joo, I agree on that. TT training is the sum of its parts and weight training with physical conditioning is part of the total training program every player who is serious should take part of.
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Edited by pingpungpeng - 02/10/2019 at 7:04am
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With regards to the conversation above about strength vs size, I think the devil is in the details.  High reps (15ish or more) will mostly lead to muscle endurance.  All those metabolism enzymes get "better."  With 8-12 reps-ish, you're going to be getting stronger, but also putting on a fair amount of muscle.  With low reps (2-5ish) you're going to get power (which some people call strength) but won't put on a lot of size.  I figure table tennis players would benefit mostly from the low-rep power training and the high-rep muscle endurance training, but not so much from the 8-12 rep training that gets you bigger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2019 at 6:31pm
I think they can. Especially if you are trying to do them both in the same time period. You won't get so huge because you need time to practice table tennis. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 3:07am
Originally posted by MCollins MCollins wrote:

With regards to the conversation above about strength vs size, I think the devil is in the details.  High reps (15ish or more) will mostly lead to muscle endurance.  All those metabolism enzymes get "better."  With 8-12 reps-ish, you're going to be getting stronger, but also putting on a fair amount of muscle.  With low reps (2-5ish) you're going to get power (which some people call strength) but won't put on a lot of size.  I figure table tennis players would benefit mostly from the low-rep power training and the high-rep muscle endurance training, but not so much from the 8-12 rep training that gets you bigger.

Most are very weak and would benefit from any of the above due to novice gains but j agree with the rest. Apart from the power/strength comment. You have the nomenclature wrong there. It's strength but power is improved concurrently as strength is a component of power. If you train quick lifts this is slightly different as they express power.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joo Se Kev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 6:29am
And to add a little bit more, as more and more research has come out in the past 3 years or so, it seems that on a set by set basis, reps anywhere from 6 all the way up to around 30 provide an equal stimulus for muscle growth (provided you come appropriately close to failure). So if you're training hard and doing sets of 15-30 reps, you'll still build muscle (in addition to increasing muscular endurance).  

You'll even be able to build muscle with sets sub 5 reps, it's just not as efficient (you'll have to do more sets and rest longer).

All that being said, even under the *best* conditions, muscle growth is a slow process that is easy to control, maintain, and even reduce if you feel like you've taken things too far.

Worrying about gaining too much muscle and becoming bulky is like worrying that if you read a medical textbook you might accidentally become a doctor. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 11:59am
One of the first videos I watched when I first started playing TT was the 1987 WTTC.  I remember thinking "I guess to be a world class TT player, you need to be anorexic."  Search the players that year: Jiang Jialiang, Waldner, Lindh, Persson, Ulf Carlsson, Teng Yi, the Mazunov brothers, Zoran and Lupi, Rosskopf, Grubba, KTS, Yoo Nam Kyu, etc.  But I did remember that Gatien had a not so skinny body, but still explosive.  But the rest all looked like you could wrap your hands around their waist.

This "anorexic trend" would continue into the late 1990's.  KLH vs. LGL in the 1995 WTTC finals come to mind.  Fast forward to 2003 with the introduction of the 40mm cell and things appeared to change.  Schlager of course won and if you compare his physique from let's say 1997 WTTC to when he won in 2003, he was still skinny but had a but more on the upper body.  Kreanga was not always very skinny.  And as we moved to 2005 until 2013 before the 40mm plastic, players were definitely not skinny.  Take for example Wang Hao.  You can also compare the 1997 versions of WLQ and Ma Lin to their 2007 versions.  Definitely much more muscular.  So we can tell they are now lifting weights.

As for Heavyspin's question, go for it brother!
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heavyspin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 11:08am
In this video, I've been under the impression that doing single stack cable rows are for conditioning and moderate power gains, while double stacking is for power. Is that correct?

Physicists never throw away old sheets of Butterfly rubber because Tenergy must be conserved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

In this video, I've been under the impression that doing single stack cable rows are for conditioning and moderate power gains, while double stacking is for power. Is that correct?


There is only a subtle difference apart from the weight lifted. They are both "for" exactly the same thing just depends on intensity/volume.


Edited by FruitLoop - 02/12/2019 at 4:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 8:58pm
The real gain in weight comes from double stacking those all you can eat pancakes at IHOP.

Mark 
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