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Hitting then grasping ball looping

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    Posted: 02/01/2017 at 6:41pm
CNT coach has been mentioning this method of looping for a while. It consists of hitting the ball first and then rotating the forearm to grasp the ball for friction. The paddle first is of higher opening angle and then closed more after rotating the forearm. I feel there is some pros in this looping method against the old elbow snapping at contact.

Any input on this looping method?

The video is here:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2017 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

...this method of looping ... consists of hitting the ball first and then rotating the forearm to grasp the ball for friction.
Despite my non-existent Chinese plus my freely acknowledged hacker status, I have some questions about this video.  For a start, how does this not buy into the age old argument about "dwell time"?  Looking at the demonstration at 13:10, the coach is clearly dragging the ball across the table - a textbook demonstration of "dwell" where the ball stays attached to the blade for some significant period of time.

Is the coach basing his technique on something we know for a fact doesn't happen in the real world?  Or is the concept of "grasping the ball for friction" simply a metaphor for something else?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2017 at 9:50pm
I know for a fact as a scientist who has worked nerve conduction and synaptic transmission (I published my first paper on that in 1982) that nerve and muscles don't work fast enough to close the paddle in time, certainly not during free play. 

Nevertheless, there may be some other value in mentally approaching a stroke like that
, I'm not going to argue with a CNT coach about what might produce a better shot!  In fact, I'm going to even try it next time I play.

But if there is value to it, it has to be what fatt says, that the blade is actually closing before contact. 

And why not?  There are all sort of mental tricks and visualizations you can use that can lead you to a better shot, even if the thing you are thinking is not really what you are actually doing. 

It's not really a slippery slope at all.  Don't think for a second that it is.  We know the time range in which the ball stays in contact with the rubber from high speed videos. It's around 1 ms.  But even if that measurement is off by 20-fold, dwell time is very far below reaction time.  The conduction velocity of neurons and synaptic delays are not a matter of controversy or debate.  This stuff has been known since the 1950s and before.  We are not allowed alternative facts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2017 at 10:13pm
Read the article by Han Xiao on Modern forehand topspin. He also discusses it there.   I have been trying to get this technique for a while and I will discuss my understanding of it when I get to a PC. I am not a Chinese pro so take my insights for what the are worth when I post them.

Edited by NextLevel - 02/02/2017 at 12:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 12:04am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

CNT coach has been mentioning this method of looping for a while. It consists of hitting the ball first and then rotating the forearm to grasp the ball for friction. The paddle first is of higher opening angle and then closed more after rotating the forearm. I feel there is some pros in this looping method against the old elbow snapping at contact.

Any input on this looping method?

The video is here:

Let's clean up a few things first:

First of all the elbow is snapped at contact.  I am not sure why you don't think it is or don't know it is.

Secondly, the method is not about hitting the ball first though that is how it is often described.  The method is described that way because it is contrasted with another method which aims to brush the ball from the start.  The problem with aiming to brush the ball from the start is that you are limiting the surface area that you can use to catch the ball.  Therefore, your consistency is naturally lower for hitting the ball.

The idea with hitting the ball is that you want to expose the ball to a fairly large surface area of your paddle.  How do you do this?  You do this by relying on the spin generated by the trajectory of your swing, usually curved, and try to make contact with the ball, but not on its main face/back (by main face, I mean that you try not to hit the back of the ball based on how it is coming towards you).  Most players make first contact on the side or side top with a fairly thick contact which can be made thinner depending on how much arc and pace is required.

The reason why the forearm snap and wrist is still required is that sometimes, you do need to brush faster to generate racket head speed and without the forearm snap and wrist, the ability to brush fast is limited.

It's more commonly used in looping backspin but it is used in counterlooping as well.  The main advantage is that it deals with heavy spin better and more consistently than trying to brush the ball from the start as making contact trying to brush from the start is much riskier.

But now, you don't hit and grasp the ball.  Your swing goes into the ball and based on your read of the ball as your swing approaches it, you accelerate your swing in a direction that generates the amount of speed and spin you want while reducing your risk of missing the ball outright.

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 12:18am
Well, it was mentioned in the videos that there are several pros in this kind of looping.

First, it includes hitting and grasping the ball for topspin. Basically, you can just adjust the force from your index finger and forearm rotation to control the speed and spin of the loop.

Secondly, I think the consistence is better as mentioned by NL. (the video did not mention this)

Thirdly, I think by rotating the forearm, it will increase the power to crease more spin if needed.

The dwelling time will increase if the paddle angle is gradually smaller after the contact.

My question is whether it is harder to master this technique for the traditional looping without  twisting forearm in the looping. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 12:21am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

Well, it was mentioned in the videos that there are several pros in this kind of looping.

First, it includes hitting and grasping the ball for topspin. Basically, you can just adjust the force from your index finger and forearm rotation to control the speed and spin of the loop.

Secondly, I think the consistence is better as mentioned by NL. (the video did not mention this)

Thirdly, I think by rotating the forearm, it will increase the power to crease more spin if needed.

The dwelling time will increase if the paddle angle is gradually smaller after the contact.

My question is whether it is harder to master this technique for the traditional looping without  twisting forearm in the looping. 

Nothing about looping is easy to master and no one loops in one and only one way.  The different methods you are comparing are not as different as you think they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingPongTom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 2:45am
I think that this method was also mentioned in the following clip by the former Chinese National men team coach (3:15 -3:37). It would be helpful if someone could translate what the coach said.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reflecx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 4:57am
I don't believe the hand can rotate fast enough during the dwell time of 1ms to make any difference. Maybe 1 or 2 degrees of rotation at most.

Ma Long, Fan Zhendong, Wang Liqin all don't rotate their forearm on their forehands.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 5:57am
I guess most people either missed or forgot this post.

From Chiang's plot, it's clear the motions are initiated no later than the acceleration phase. Upon impact, some motions are either rising or falling sharply, yet others are pretty much constant.

For Chiang's fast loop, there is a trend of radial deviation of the wrist that reaches the peak right before impact, carries through the impact, and then turns into ulnar deviation soon after impact. For the forearm, there is a subtle pronation during the initial phase of acceleration that turns into supination right before impact.

For his (slow) loop, there is a very sharp radial deviation of the wrist that keeps increasing through the impact. There is also an obvious pronation of the forearm that reaches the peak right before impact.

Edited by zeio - 02/02/2017 at 6:32am
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+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabmini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 6:53am
A pro that always loop this way is Michael Maze for sure.

Edited by Tabmini - 02/02/2017 at 6:54am
My feedback :
mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=77680&PID=959859󪕳
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 7:16am
Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

I don't believe the hand can rotate fast enough during the dwell time of 1ms to make any difference. Maybe 1 or 2 degrees of rotation at most.

Ma Long, Fan Zhendong, Wang Liqin all don't rotate their forearm on their forehands.







To me they all clearly do use their body rotation to create a simple similar racket trajectory.   If you can't do it, it can be hard knowing what to look for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reflecx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 7:47am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

[QUOTE=reflecx] I don't believe the hand can rotate fast enough during the dwell time of 1ms to make any difference. Maybe 1 or 2 degrees of rotation at most.

To me they all clearly do use their body rotation to create a simple similar racket trajectory.   If you can't do it, it can be hard knowing what to look for.

NextLevel, we're discussing forearm rotation here, why are you suddenly referring to body rotation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 7:54am
In part I of the videos by the same coach (Key I), he talked about the body rotation. This is part II (Key II), how to adjust power (for spin and speed). There is part III coming out. It is interesting to see what it is about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 8:00am
Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

[QUOTE=reflecx] I don't believe the hand can rotate fast enough during the dwell time of 1ms to make any difference. Maybe 1 or 2 degrees of rotation at most.

To me they all clearly do use their body rotation to create a simple similar racket trajectory.   If you can't do it, it can be hard knowing what to look for.


NextLevel, we're discussing forearm rotation here, why are you suddenly referring to body rotation?


Because he said body rotation can create the same paddle trajectory the coach talks about in the video?

I'm not questioning the value of this, but the only people I have seen *consciously* make a big rolling over forearm movement on their fhs, have not had consistent or powerful fhs. Entirely possible they were just not doing it very well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 8:05am
By the way, the coach in the video was a former coach for Beijing team.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 8:27am
Was Schlager using this method as well?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 8:52am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

[QUOTE=reflecx] I don't believe the hand can rotate fast enough during the dwell time of 1ms to make any difference. Maybe 1 or 2 degrees of rotation at most.

To me they all clearly do use their body rotation to create a simple similar racket trajectory.   If you can't do it, it can be hard knowing what to look for.


NextLevel, we're discussing forearm rotation here, why are you suddenly referring to body rotation?


Because he said body rotation can create the same paddle trajectory the coach talks about in the video?

I'm not questioning the value of this, but the only people I have seen *consciously* make a big rolling over forearm movement on their fhs, have not had consistent or powerful fhs. Entirely possible they were just not doing it very well.

I know my forehand sucks, but still...

https://youtu.be/pZR3RdQKPTA?t=619
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZR3RdQKPTA&feature=youtu.be&t=631

Here is a better player who if you watch his shot selection often does it, though he like many good players has many swings so you have to be alert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbjcbI4xxvA

Look at around 4:03 and for about a minute after.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/02/2017 at 9:01am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 9:09am
When the lumberjack meets the log.

Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 9:40am
http://butterflyonline.com/modern-topspin-strokes/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 6:02pm
grasping /follow through / flipping, flicking, some types of chopping all ways where the arm does a quarter turn
 If people are taught on power loops Im sure it could be a benifit
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2017 at 9:26pm
This method of hitting a forehand topspin predates looping.  It was demonstrated in a videotape given to me by Scott Gordon.  Unfortunately I don't have it now, so I'm describing what I remember.

In a portion of the tape, Marcus Schussheim (later Mark Matthews) a two-time U.S. Open winner in the early 1930s, demonstrates how to hit a forehand topspin, holding a ball in his left hand and coming over the back, equator, and top of the ball finishing with his racket closed, starting with it slightly open.

Then, in practicing with a gentleman, possibly the tennis player Vincent "Vinnie" Richards, Schussheim hits his forehands with an almost neutral racket face, finishing well in front of his head with almost no what we now call "elbow snap".

In the early 1990s a Russian tt player, Mark Shapiro, came to our club.  Although unable to hit a penetrating forehand himself, he showed us using a tricycle wheel how a forehand loop should be hit, putting your racket face onto the wheel and rolling it over in an arclike fashion.    

We at the Columbus club were skeptical, but at the 1994 World Vets' in Lillehammer, Norway, I watched a number of Russian over 40 players, maybe around 2350-2400 level, using this open to closed "tricycle wheel" loop.

This way of looping (or hardbat topspinning) may not work for everyone, but it might work for you.  Just hope that you don't come down with a nasty case of FORS (foreharm over rotation syndrome).


Edited by berndt_mann - 02/02/2017 at 9:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lestat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2017 at 1:32am
I honestly don't see much value in this method. Berndt_mann called it right, it's a throwback. These kind of micro adjustments are mostly academic. In a heated rally it's difficult enough to stay in the sweet spot, let alone micro adjust. What about when you swing hard? Even if you are quick enough to micro adjust (which you most likely aren't), wouldn't you introduce an extra element into the stroke, and yet another thing that can go wrong?

Nothing more than a novelty, especially that a modern fh loop seems to be quite the opposite in every fundamental component. The only stroke you would actually approach with that movement is a fh flip over the table. To bring it into a fh loop is a MASSIVE overreach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2017 at 3:06am
This rolling of the forearm(pronation) is apparent in Waldner's forehand.

Check out the part starting at 5:23 when he shadow strokes. There is also some flexion of the wrist for some shots.

Throwback...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2017 at 7:57am
In China, the topic of hit-brushing(打磨) has been flogged to death for over a decade, as far as I could trace. There have been many manifestations of the concept, such as 先打後磨(hit first, then brush),打磨結合(combination of hitting and brushing),打磨比例(proportion of hitting and brushing),打磨厚薄(thickness of hitting and brushing) and on and on.

From my own practice, the entire topic can be summed up as a big dish of 雜碎(chop suey, or miscellaneous leftovers), as in missing the big picture. The problem with many folks is the lack of the vital prerequisite that allows them to pull off the stroke, which in this case is the racket head speed, in which lies another prerequisite, the intrinsic understanding of the use of force. To illustrate the significance of the point, watch the video below.



Hong Kong-born French-raised martial arts actor Vinz has long ago heard about the legend of Wing Chun, with Bruce Lee among the disciples. A Karate practitioner, he wanted to know more about the arts through a hands-on approach. Through connections, he was referred to Lui Ming Fai, a Hong Kong master now residing in Macau.

7:31, after showing off his stuff, Master Lui commented that given Vinz started off as a Karate practitioner, which uses the "rigid/hard" approach, in contrast to Wing Chun, which uses the "flexible/soft" approach, he would face difficulty switching from one form to the other, and would have to start from scratch, to learn to loosen up and to take it slow.

The first thing Master Lui taught Vinz was the 直衝拳(straight punch), to let him feel the power of Wing Chun, named after its founder, who was a female. The essence to the straight punch lies in the use of the elbow to propel the forearm forward. The difference between Master Lui and Vinz in their own understanding of the use of force became evident the moment they started punching at the sandbag. The reason Vinz failed to make it jump was because he did not loosen up fast enough right before impact. The bag met resistance and thus failed to recoil.

In another TV program, Master Lui talks about there are people claiming that Wing Chun could be self-taught through videos, a view he dismisses as impossible, stressing the necessity of having someone to show you how to generate force, and that the very goal of teaching disciples is to show them the use of force. Another point he made was that one being good at using the fist does not necessarily mean one is also as good at teaching others.



Back to table tennis after a big detour, the theme of this pingpangwang video series is also on the use of force, with the 1st episode on "the fundamental use of force", 2nd on "the coordinated use of force", and 3rd on "the supplementary use of force."

In essence:

The fundamental use of force lies in the use of the trunk to lead the arms and legs to generate force.

The coordinated use of force lies in the use of the forearm and wrist in collaboration to direct the force.

I should note that in the pingpangwang video, at 0:58 where he introduces the force in which the index finger exerts a force on the back of the racket, it is stressed that it is strictly done at the transient moment before impact. Other than that instance, throughout the rest of the video he uses the moment upon impact, which I take it to denote the definition above. It is also noted that the motion is exaggerated so people can see clearly. Later in the video he clarifies the meaning of brushing/grazing the ball is essentially the pronation of the forearm for forehand, and supination of the forearm for backhand. Colloquially there is a term called hit-brushing, or simply tangential brushing. What they advocate instead is roll-brushing, or spin-brushing. There is a difference in the two and not to be confused, which unfortunately is evident in the thread title, showing the severity of the hit-brushing pandemic.

Edited by zeio - 03/29/2018 at 9:59am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2017 at 8:33am
None of this matters if you mistime your shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2017 at 8:46am
@zeio, nice post. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2017 at 1:41pm
Here are some clips from my recent play.







This was my 2nd time playing in over 2 years and 4th/5th time playing with the 40+(DFish), using a nearly 5-year-old setup with a crappy H3 Neo and trusty Hexer HD. If a fresh commercial H3 Neo is dead, mine is beyond deader than dead. I can attest that it plays like crap.

Other than the ball feeling harder(both in real play and thumb-press test) and coming up a bit shorter than the celluloid, timing was not much of an issue. It's business as usual, like executing a preprogrammed routine. If anything, dormant muscles and keeping focus proved much more of a challenge. My triceps ached so bad from disuse that I had trouble playing the forehand.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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tom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2017 at 1:58pm
are you the one with the glasses or without?
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zeio View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2017 at 2:00pm
It should be obvious.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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