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How Long Pips Help Choppers

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    Posted: 06/08/2016 at 11:43am
I have long looked for the reason that long pips are helpful for choppers. Almost all the top choppers in the world use pips on one side, so I figured there HAD to be an advantage. I was unable to find all my answers in one location. So after much research, and testing things on my own, I think I have come up with the actual physics as to why most choppers use pips on one side. Here are my findings. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect.

This information has been reorganized and better explained here:

I have removed the original post, and encourage you to visit the link above to see the original content of the post. It is much better organized and written out.


Edited by force2brw - 08/12/2021 at 9:47am
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Chicobo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chicobo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2016 at 12:27pm
Would short pip choppers fall under the high friction category?

Edited by Chicobo - 06/08/2016 at 12:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2016 at 12:38pm
Great summary.  Very very good.  Lot's of detail. 

Here are three other things (kind of related I suppose).

1. The ball travels very slowly off of LP, which give the defender more time to get back to ready position in time for the next shot.  Even a little bit helps on this.

2. The contrast to inverted can itself force timing errors and misreading of spin, especially players who twiddle.  More so when the defender is playing at amateur levels.

3.  Very low dead balls of LP are hard to deal with, and the shots most people are forced to do to cope with that often sets up devastating forehand attack of modern defenders (at least good ones).  These days, one thing I notice about a lot of high level defenders (at least among men) is that their forehands are huge.  Li Kewai, who plays at my club (>>>2700 when he first got to the US), hits his forehand harder and with more spin than any "attacker" who has ever set foot in the place, and that includes a bunch of former US team members and other high level visitors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2016 at 4:39pm
Most of the OP's post is correct, except  "you must be able to chop your paddle down FASTER than the surface speed of the topspin rotation on the ball"

The way you describe sounds like the rubber doesn't compress at all, however the topsheet + sponge compress and thats how spin(under/top) is produced. So your racket speed + the speed of compression of the topsheet should be greater than topspin to achieve chopping of the topspin ball.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2016 at 5:23pm
Quote Heavy chop with medium friction long pips:
Incoming heavy topspin>Outgoing very heavy backspin

Medium friction pips:
...
Butterfly Feint Long II






Edited by zeio - 06/08/2016 at 7:14pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2016 at 6:37pm
(Baal)  1. The ball travels very slowly off of LP, which give the defender more time to get back to ready position in time for the next shot.  Even a little bit helps on this.

Jawohl.  That's why classic modern defenders and modern modern defenders use them.  You certainly want to prepare yourself in time for the next shot.  But if you're a modern defender, you can cheat a little bit towards your fh or bh side if you chop sharply crosscourt, as chances are you will receive a crosscourt loop in return.  But if an attacker is sneaky, he/she will mix in a few short slow loops, pushes or even something like a drop shot to keep you on your toes.  Being a chopper, classic or modern, means you gotta pay attention.  I speak from experience, albeit not recent experience.

2. The contrast to inverted can itself force timing errors and misreading of spin, especially players who twiddle.  More so when the defender is playing at amateur levels.

Yep.  This can lead to discombobulation especially at amateur levels, and in my day I've seen many a once brave lad or lass toss his/her blade and glued to the max Bryce out the window after going down 11-3, 11-5 against a reasonably decent twiddling amateur defender/blocker.  I'm not entirely sure that this is good for the game, but hey, today it is what it is.  But, philosophically speaking, if it weren't for speed glued then boosted inverted, long pips might never have needed to come to exist.

3.  Very low dead balls of LP are hard to deal with, and the shots most people are forced to do to cope with that often sets up devastating forehand attack of modern defenders (at least good ones).

Elementary, sirrah.  Even a player such as Peter Chen, whose smashes are about 3/4 speed but almost never come back, can whompette the ball after setting up his mark with a no-spin dead-ass very low LP junk shot.  Truly frightening to think what a guy like Joo or Chen or Ding Sung might do to a loose ball off of a not quite so low still very much alive LP special.






Edited by berndt_mann - 06/08/2016 at 6:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2016 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Most of the OP's post is correct, except  "you must be able to chop your paddle down FASTER than the surface speed of the topspin rotation on the ball"

The way you describe sounds like the rubber doesn't compress at all, however the topsheet + sponge compress and thats how spin(under/top) is produced. So your racket speed + the speed of compression of the topsheet should be greater than topspin to achieve chopping of the topspin ball.


The rubber and sponge will compress when it makes contact with a ball, however unless it is a completely dead sponge (think memory foam. I don't think anything like that exists at the moment, and not sure if it's legal), the sponge and rubber will bounce back. This will actually make it even harder to control. This is why chopping with something like a tenergy is harder than something like a tackiness chop. However, the top level players often can chop with something like tenergy, because they have so much control. Most non-professionals do not possess the same amount of physical control, and need some assistance from equipment control.

So, it very well may be true that some rubber/sponge combos could help, which is why I mentioned it in my post. However, none of the ones I can think of would actually do that.

A less tacky surface, and a harder sponge could help minimize the effect, but will not actively get rid of the effect of the ball jumping up off the paddle if the spin is greater than the paddle speed. The downside to this is that when you can overcome the topspin, having a tacky surface and softer sponge will allow the ball to be grabbed more (by the tackiness of the rubber, and more surface area to grab due to the softer sponge sinking in), and you can create much more spin than if you are using a low tack rubber and hard sponge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2016 at 10:38pm
I don't know that short pips would work the same. Short pips don't really bend as much, taking away the mechanical function of long pips. As I understand it, short pips are mainly useful to make your opponents spin effect you less. However, on the flip side, you cannot create as much spin. 

I don't believe short pips would give you the mechanical advantage to overcome topspin like long pips would, though, so I think it would work differently. The short pips would reduce how much the topspin effects you, though. I have not studied short pips though, so I cannot give you a definite answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2016 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by Chicobo Chicobo wrote:

Would short pip choppers fall under the high friction category?

As I said, I don't think short pips would act the same, but medium pips might split the difference betwenn short and long. Giving you some mechanical advantage of long pips, and some spin reduction of short pips. But I have not researched them either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2016 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Quote Heavy chop with medium friction long pips:
Incoming heavy topspin>Outgoing very heavy backspin

Medium friction pips:
...
Butterfly Feint Long II





Do you know what rubbers everyone is using in the video? I would be curious.

Anyways, to reply to your question, you ARE able to send an incoming ball back with little or no spin. It depends on how you hit the ball. The more "grip" you have, the more variation you are capable of. Tacky inverted gives you the most variation. But even medium friction can give you good variation. So, when Gionis says this, he means that he can either give it heavy spin or no spin using the same rubber. You just have to change the way you hit the ball slightly to make it do that.

However, hitting an incoming heavy topspin ball with a heavy chop using medium friction rubber will NEVER result in a no spin ball being returned. To create a no spin ball you would have to brush up, not down, to counter the spin already on the ball, which would give you the ability to send back a no spin ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2016 at 12:09am
Hitomi Sato is using the the Feint Long II, hence the reason I quoted that part of the post.

The others are all using inverted.

Here is another instance where heavy topspin gets chopped back as no spin by Sato.

Here is Park Mi Young chopping back a heavy topspin as no spin with TSP Curl P-1R.


Edited by zeio - 06/09/2016 at 1:09am
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+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2016 at 1:15am
Originally posted by force2brw force2brw wrote:

I don't know that short pips would work the same. Short pips don't really bend as much, taking away the mechanical function of long pips. As I understand it, short pips are mainly useful to make your opponents spin effect you less. However, on the flip side, you cannot create as much spin. 

I don't believe short pips would give you the mechanical advantage to overcome topspin like long pips would, though, so I think it would work differently. The short pips would reduce how much the topspin effects you, though. I have not studied short pips though, so I cannot give you a definite answer.


Wang yang from slovakia chops with short pips 889 i think the low arc makes the chopped balls harder to attack.i ve read that there are more short pips chopper than lp choppers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2016 at 8:12am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Hitomi Sato is using the the Feint Long II, hence the reason I quoted that part of the post.

The others are all using inverted.

Here is another instance where heavy topspin gets chopped back as no spin by Sato.

Here is [URL=https://youtu.be/YNf0fd-_5WM?t=785" rel="nofollow]Park Mi Young<span style="line-height: 16.8px;]</span>[/URL]<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> chopping back a heavy topspin as no spin with TSP Curl P-1R.</span>



Being able to use technique to vary spin is not the same as the rubber doing something different. Pro level choppers are able to use the same or similar stroke to impart a number of different spin variations. Their success depends on it. If their strokes look significantly different, they will not be able to fool their opponent. However if your intention is to impart backspin, and you heavy chop a ball coming in with heavy topspin, you will send a very heavy backspin using medium friction long pips.

Edited by force2brw - 06/09/2016 at 8:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2016 at 8:20am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:



Wang yang from slovakia chops with short pips 889 i think the low arc makes the chopped balls harder to attack.i ve read that there are more short pips chopper than lp choppers

That may be true. I believe there is a Chinese chopper that also uses short pips, but I forget his name. Short pips should also allow you to better deal with heavy topspin, since it is less effected by spin than inverted. Both have pros and cons, so if could be a personal preference. The are also all inverted choppers out there, as there are pros to using inverted to chop. They tend to be women, but there may be high level men out there too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2016 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by force2brw force2brw wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Hitomi Sato is using the the Feint Long II, hence the reason I quoted that part of the post.

The others are all using inverted.

Here is another instance where heavy topspin gets chopped back as no spin by Sato.

Here is [URL=https://youtu.be/YNf0fd-_5WM?t=785" rel="nofollow]Park Mi Young<span style="line-height: 16.8px;]</span>[/URL]<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> chopping back a heavy topspin as no spin with TSP Curl P-1R.</span>



Being able to use technique to vary spin is not the same as the rubber doing something different. Pro level choppers are able to use the same or similar stroke to impart a number of different spin variations. Their success depends on it. If their strokes look significantly different, they will not be able to fool their opponent. However if your intention is to impart backspin, and you heavy chop a ball coming in with heavy topspin, you will send a very heavy backspin using medium friction long pips.
Which leads to the point I am getting at.  How a player plays and an opponent reacts or is forced to react is more than the characteristics of a rubber.  Keeping track of what spin is put on the ball and what spin will come back are only half the story.  It takes more than that to stay ahead of the game.  That applies to the amateur level as well.

BTW, here is another one by Park Mi Young chopping with Grass D.TecS.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2016 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by force2brw force2brw wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Hitomi Sato is using the the Feint Long II, hence the reason I quoted that part of the post.

The others are all using inverted.

Here is another instance where heavy topspin gets chopped back as no spin by Sato.

Here is [URL=https://youtu.be/YNf0fd-_5WM?t=785" rel="nofollow]Park Mi Young<span style="line-height: 16.8px;]</span>[/URL]<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> chopping back a heavy topspin as no spin with TSP Curl P-1R.</span>



Being able to use technique to vary spin is not the same as the rubber doing something different. Pro level choppers are able to use the same or similar stroke to impart a number of different spin variations. Their success depends on it. If their strokes look significantly different, they will not be able to fool their opponent. However if your intention is to impart backspin, and you heavy chop a ball coming in with heavy topspin, you will send a very heavy backspin using medium friction long pips.
Which leads to the point I am getting at.  How a player plays and an opponent reacts or is forced to react is more than the characteristics of a rubber.  Keeping track of what spin is put on the ball and what spin will come back are only half the story.  It takes more than that to stay ahead of the game.  That applies to the amateur level as well.

BTW, here is another one by Park Mi Young chopping with Grass D.TecS.

I agree. To win a game, you need more than just knowing what a rubber does. However, I put in the beginning of my post, I'm only talking about how and why long pips effect chopping. I'm not talking about if a chop is the best choice of shot for the given situation, I'm just saying how long pips will work when chopping. I give a few "spin scenario" situations to help illustrate a point, but they aren't trying to say exactly what will happen in every situation, or what the best stroke would be when you see certain spins. I'm just giving a general rule that applied to most situations, and it is up to the reader to know what the situation actually is and how these rules might apply to that situation. 

Blocking and attacking with long pips, along with paying attention to spin and game play situations, are a completely different subject, and not meant to be covered by the post I wrote.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2016 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by force2brw force2brw wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by force2brw force2brw wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Hitomi Sato is using the the Feint Long II, hence the reason I quoted that part of the post.

The others are all using inverted.

Here is another instance where heavy topspin gets chopped back as no spin by Sato.

Here is [URL=https://youtu.be/YNf0fd-_5WM?t=785" rel="nofollow]Park Mi Young<span style="line-height: 16.8px;]</span>[/URL]<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> chopping back a heavy topspin as no spin with TSP Curl P-1R.</span>



Being able to use technique to vary spin is not the same as the rubber doing something different. Pro level choppers are able to use the same or similar stroke to impart a number of different spin variations. Their success depends on it. If their strokes look significantly different, they will not be able to fool their opponent. However if your intention is to impart backspin, and you heavy chop a ball coming in with heavy topspin, you will send a very heavy backspin using medium friction long pips.
Which leads to the point I am getting at.  How a player plays and an opponent reacts or is forced to react is more than the characteristics of a rubber.  Keeping track of what spin is put on the ball and what spin will come back are only half the story.  It takes more than that to stay ahead of the game.  That applies to the amateur level as well.

BTW, here is another one by Park Mi Young chopping with Grass D.TecS.

I agree. To win a game, you need more than just knowing what a rubber does. However, I put in the beginning of my post, I'm only talking about how and why long pips effect chopping. I'm not talking about if a chop is the best choice of shot for the given situation, I'm just saying how long pips will work when chopping. I give a few "spin scenario" situations to help illustrate a point, but they aren't trying to say exactly what will happen in every situation, or what the best stroke would be when you see certain spins. I'm just giving a general rule that applied to most situations, and it is up to the reader to know what the situation actually is and how these rules might apply to that situation. 

Blocking and attacking with long pips, along with paying attention to spin and game play situations, are a completely different subject, and not meant to be covered by the post I wrote.

Are you able to do a blocking/attacking with long pips post? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2016 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:


Are you able to do a blocking/attacking with long pips post? 

I'm not opposed to it, but I would have to do some more research and testing before I am comfortable in writing a in depth post about it. I will say that if you check out the website I referenced in the beginning of my original post, it does a good job explaining the basics of long pips. These basics can be extrapolated into many different situations.

Blocking should be relatively straight forward, but attacking is a little more complex. I personally don't play a blocking game, and try to only attack with my pips on relatively safe shots.

I'm actually bad at playing a blocking game with long pips, and it is one of my weaknesses when caught close to the table. My strong game is 3-6 feet off the table.

I'll see what I can do tho. Might be able to do it after I get a little better at those aspects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/09/2016 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by force2brw force2brw wrote:

..
 My club rating is about 2100, which equates to maybe around 1300-1400 USTTA rating (rough estimate). 
...

I find above statement rather hard to believe. 700+ point difference between club/league and USATT is quite implausible - you are either extremely modest with your USATT estimate or I have no idea how your club rating works.

Of course it's possible that you are not really based in US, as your profile currently indicates (and there is no one with league/USATT/RC rating under your name, at least the one you listed in profile).  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2016 at 8:35am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by force2brw force2brw wrote:

<span style="line-height: 1.4;">..</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> My club rating is about 2100, which equates to maybe around 1300-1400 USTTA rating (rough estimate). </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">...</span>


I find above statement rather hard to believe. 700+ point difference between club/league and USATT is quite implausible - you are either extremely modest with your USATT estimate or I have no idea how your club rating works.

Of course it's possible that you are not really based in US, as your profile currently indicates (and there is no one with league/USATT/RC rating under your name, at least the one you listed in profile).  



I am based in USA. I don't have an official ranking since I never competed in a ranked tournament. My club director said you can subtract 700-800 from the club ranking for a rough estimate, but it can still vary. Our club ranking isn't based on any official ranking system, so it just shows comparisons based on other club members. 

I once played in a tournament that used actual rankings to divide skill levels, but the tournament did not affect your actual rankings (hence still not in system). I came in third in the 1400 and lower bracket. Now, I'm a good bit better now than I was then, and pretty sure I would have won that bracket it I played in it now, so my ranking may be more like 1500-1700 usatt, but idk, because I haven't played in other tournaments. Maybe I could ask other players at the club if they have a usatt ranking and compare myself that way...


Edited by force2brw - 06/10/2016 at 8:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote force2brw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2021 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Are you able to do a blocking/attacking with long pips post? 

I just uploaded a post about this here: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/topic89744_post1110164.html#1110164
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