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How to attack FH short high balls

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    Posted: 01/27/2019 at 11:15pm
I find it really hard to attack FH short high balls. BH short balls is straightforward, just step forward with your right leg and chiquita or BH smash, it feels really natural. For FH short balls I think you still step in with your right foot, but how do you rotate your waist in that position, it's really awkward imo... It almost always feels like I'm reaching for the ball!

Right now I prefer doing an attacking FH heavy push which is unusually effective but would like to learn how to initiate a FH topspin attack in that position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2019 at 11:59pm
This is unrelated to the actual stroke for the forehand flick, but I suspect it might come into play since you said it almost always feels like you're reaching for the ball.

Last week at training, the coach got us to try doing short push rallies over the table. Anyway, I sucked at it, but the coach went on to show us, and he's a good 15cms or so shorter than me, but he could reach all of the balls. I actually missed because I couldn't reach the ball. He spoke about footwork, and basically said to move your body to the shortest distance to where the ball is. It makes sense if you think about it, but this means that for example, if the ball is to the wide forehand, you don't want to step diagonally forward because it's not the shortest distance. You want to step towards the right (for right handers) to put your body behind the ball, then step forward with your foot underneath the table. Of course, this happens all in a one two tempo step so it's almost instantaneous. Hopefully that makes sense. If not, I'll draw a picture or upload that part of my training session so you can see.

That was for over the table short stop pushes, but it probably applies to the flick as well since you need to get close to the ball.

Hope this helps :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2019 at 2:08am
Try just moving your legs more, and try to get both of your legs closer to the ball. If you want to use your body in the shot it Will be hard if you have the right for in front of the left if you are a rigthhander, But Maybe it is not necessary to use the body at usch high balls.

Edit: you can also try to Do a step in. Then you Will use the left leg and almost jump a step forward. Please correct me if i am remembering this wrong But pretty sure i am correct.

Edited by Lula - 01/28/2019 at 2:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2019 at 12:53pm
I never thought of that, I tried at the table in my basement and I am not sure whether or not what I came up with applies in real play so the following is more an attempt to answer than the answer itself:

The playing foot step in under the table for a fh push is a solid base on which we rest to execute the stroke and then we step out: step forward in, step backwards in a direction parallel to the side of the table. The same can be done for any stroke that deals with a short high enough ball that can be either smashed, flicked, looped or hit (this is just a guess, to be discussed.)

On a short fh side ball that can be flicked, hit, looped or smashed, we step in under the table like we do for a push but we make sure we rest on the forefoot only so when executing the stroke we can rotate on the toes of the playing foot and add body power, if we need it. If we have given full power into the stroke, we are facing the side at the end of the swing, before recovery, with the 2 feet forming a line almost parallel to the length of the table, then we recover and face the opponent again.

(?)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2019 at 1:56pm
I believe one of the major differences between the  footwork for returning the short push and for hitting a short high ball is the direction of the step in.  For a short push your step in toward where you expect to contact the ball and then your hand and arm "pushes" almost straight done the imaginary line from your foot to the ball.   But for hitting a ball your hand and arm needs to travel in more of an arc that starts away from your body.  So (for right handers) you need to step in towards a point well left of where you expect to make ball contact.  This allows the arm to  be more away from the body and have the arc of the forearm movement go more forward at contact than going sideways.   The more towards the middle of the table that the ball lands, the more critical it is to get left of the ball so that you are hitting forward and not off to the left of the table.  On balls well to the right you can get away with stepping more directly to the ball since you generally want to hit well back to the left anyway.  But to hit down the line with power on those balls you still need to step in more to the left than you would for a push.

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Edited by mjamja - 01/28/2019 at 1:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2019 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I never thought of that, I tried at the table in my basement and I am not sure whether or not what I came up with applies in real play so the following is more an attempt to answer than the answer itself:

The playing foot step in under the table for a fh push is a solid base on which we rest to execute the stroke and then we step out: step forward in, step backwards in a direction parallel to the side of the table. The same can be done for any stroke that deals with a short high enough ball that can be either smashed, flicked, looped or hit (this is just a guess, to be discussed.)

On a short fh side ball that can be flicked, hit, looped or smashed, we step in under the table like we do for a push but we make sure we rest on the forefoot only so when executing the stroke we can rotate on the toes of the playing foot and add body power, if we need it. If we have given full power into the stroke, we are facing the side at the end of the swing, before recovery, with the 2 feet forming a line almost parallel to the length of the table, then we recover and face the opponent again.

(?)


Wow thanks fatt! II have never thought of that before, stepping in and rotating such that you are facing the left after the stroke! This is very interesting, and may be able to provide me room for the body rotation needed to loopkill these balls....

The problem with these short balls I'm never gonna reach the ball without stepping in with my right foot, and I can't put power behind the ball without body rotation haha. The FH flick kill is a solution but I'm just not very confident in it for higher balls. The  balls usually result from opponents misreading my serve and carry quite a bit of spin in them which is not easy to deal with without a loop.

I'm gonna shadow this a bit and try it out next session haha...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fmarek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2019 at 6:25am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

This is unrelated to the actual stroke for the forehand flick, but I suspect it might come into play since you said it almost always feels like you're reaching for the ball.

Last week at training, the coach got us to try doing short push rallies over the table. Anyway, I sucked at it, but the coach went on to show us, and he's a good 15cms or so shorter than me, but he could reach all of the balls. I actually missed because I couldn't reach the ball. He spoke about footwork, and basically said to move your body to the shortest distance to where the ball is. It makes sense if you think about it, but this means that for example, if the ball is to the wide forehand, you don't want to step diagonally forward because it's not the shortest distance. You want to step towards the right (for right handers) to put your body behind the ball, then step forward with your foot underneath the table. Of course, this happens all in a one two tempo step so it's almost instantaneous. Hopefully that makes sense. If not, I'll draw a picture or upload that part of my training session so you can see.

That was for over the table short stop pushes, but it probably applies to the flick as well since you need to get close to the ball.

Hope this helps :)

Yes please, upload drawing or training or better both! Big thanks. I am still learning how to attack short balls. All I can do so far is to backspin or gently push them back. 
Big thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 8:50pm
Sure. I'll upload the video within a few days of that particular part of the session. I don't know how clear it'll be because I just left my camera on the side the whole time.

I can't say if it's the best way for attacking, but at least for short pushes, it's the way to go. It definitely helps get you closer to the ball, which should aid attacking, too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 12:04am
Okay. Here's a clip of that part from my training session awhile back.

I added English subtitles, but I had trouble hearing what he said at certain points on the video.

This was related to the short push, followed by getting ready quickly to attack weaker/longer balls.

I kept the few times the coach took over to demonstrate. They make it look so easy.



Hopefully this is useful to some, even if it's not exactly the OP's topic..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 1:27am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackass22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 2:11am
What equipment/blade, fh,bh rubber + thickness/ does the man in blue jacket Victas use ?
I believe, that he uses on fh some hard rubber-excellent short game, but also very fast spinny topspin.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 4:01am
I'll have to ask for you the next time I see him. He's one of a few coaches where I train and he was substituting for the head coach, who had to go on a business meeting. I've only had him a few times so far.

My guess would be Victas V-15 (or a variant). Most the coaches use it because I think they're sponsored by them.

He has excellent touch and technique because he used to play in All Japan! I don't think it's the rubber hehe.


EDIT: I think this is him.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIx0eajSlLI


Edited by mickd - 02/08/2019 at 4:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 11:16am
If it's not too high, and if I have time, lately I've been moving along the side of the table towards the net and killing it with my backhand.  It never comes back, but I'm not at a super high level.  But you can really kill these balls with your backhand if you're standing on the side of the table.

Edited by WeebleWobble - 02/12/2019 at 11:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 12:06pm
This is a bit unorthodox a style to fh attack short balls but it works --> dive in throwing forward your non playing foot 1st, contact the ball at the same time that foot steps on the floor and land the playing foot after that.


This situation is a bit special though, ZJK was anticipating a longer ball and adjusted to deal with the shorter than expected one.

I thought that plugged in well into the thread but it's a special situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

This is a bit unorthodox a style to fh attack short balls but it works --> dive in throwing forward your non playing foot 1st, contact the ball at the same time that foot steps on the floor and land the playing foot after that.


This situation is a bit special though, ZJK was anticipating a longer ball and adjusted to deal with the shorter than expected one.

I thought that plugged in well into the thread but it's a special situation.

That is not a short ball.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/12/2019 at 1:39pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I find it really hard to attack FH short high balls. BH short balls is straightforward, just step forward with your right leg and chiquita or BH smash, it feels really natural. For FH short balls I think you still step in with your right foot, but how do you rotate your waist in that position, it's really awkward imo... It almost always feels like I'm reaching for the ball!

Right now I prefer doing an attacking FH heavy push which is unusually effective but would like to learn how to initiate a FH topspin attack in that position.

The orientation of the foot and how far you are from the ball are key.  If you are too close or too far, you don't feel you have the leverage to play into the ball.  Guaging the appropriate distance is one of the hardest parts of forehand flicking.  Sometimes it is really more about getting the shoulder or elbow to the appropriate place and getting behind the ball.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

This is a bit unorthodox a style to fh attack short balls but it works --> dive in throwing forward your non playing foot 1st, contact the ball at the same time that foot steps on the floor and land the playing foot after that.


This situation is a bit special though, ZJK was anticipating a longer ball and adjusted to deal with the shorter than expected one.

I thought that plugged in well into the thread but it's a special situation.

That is not a short ball.
in this movie it is shorter than expected and the player has to step in so it is short from his perspective but I have to agree that out of context, it is not a short ball.

edit: of course at ZJK's level it can be considered a wanted stroke, something he trains for so ok, he did what he wanted; I guess what I meant by posting the clip is we can use this as a possibility for short fh balls.


Edited by fatt - 02/12/2019 at 2:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I find it really hard to attack FH short high balls. BH short balls is straightforward, just step forward with your right leg and chiquita or BH smash, it feels really natural. For FH short balls I think you still step in with your right foot, but how do you rotate your waist in that position, it's really awkward imo... It almost always feels like I'm reaching for the ball!

Right now I prefer doing an attacking FH heavy push which is unusually effective but would like to learn how to initiate a FH topspin attack in that position.

The orientation of the foot and how far you are from the ball are key.  If you are too close or too far, you don't feel you have the leverage to play into the ball.  Guaging the appropriate distance is one of the hardest parts of forehand flicking.  Sometimes it is really more about getting the shoulder or elbow to the appropriate place and getting behind the ball.

I think you've nailed it, the foot positioning is extremely crucial. I feel like there should be three types of strokes when encountering a short high ball on the FH side. If you're early and have time you can wind up for a FH loopkill with the followthrough resulting in you facing left after the stroke, if you're late you can do a FH flick since it has less demands compared to the over the table loopkill, if you're really late you can only try to push it to 

I'm still working hard on this, I think I still miss more than I put on the table for these pop-ups on the FH side... It's frustrating because it's an earned opportunity from a well executed serve, I don't even dare to serve short sidetopspin in crucial moments because of the fear of missing the loopkill on the pop-up! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I find it really hard to attack FH short high balls. BH short balls is straightforward, just step forward with your right leg and chiquita or BH smash, it feels really natural. For FH short balls I think you still step in with your right foot, but how do you rotate your waist in that position, it's really awkward imo... It almost always feels like I'm reaching for the ball!

Right now I prefer doing an attacking FH heavy push which is unusually effective but would like to learn how to initiate a FH topspin attack in that position.

The orientation of the foot and how far you are from the ball are key.  If you are too close or too far, you don't feel you have the leverage to play into the ball.  Guaging the appropriate distance is one of the hardest parts of forehand flicking.  Sometimes it is really more about getting the shoulder or elbow to the appropriate place and getting behind the ball.

I think you've nailed it, the foot positioning is extremely crucial. I feel like there should be three types of strokes when encountering a short high ball on the FH side. If you're early and have time you can wind up for a FH loopkill with the followthrough resulting in you facing left after the stroke, if you're late you can do a FH flick since it has less demands compared to the over the table loopkill, if you're really late you can only try to push it to 

I'm still working hard on this, I think I still miss more than I put on the table for these pop-ups on the FH side... It's frustrating because it's an earned opportunity from a well executed serve, I don't even dare to serve short sidetopspin in crucial moments because of the fear of missing the loopkill on the pop-up! 
  I would say try not to be to hasty and start swinging before the ball has bounced that is what usually starts the trouble.   Better to get to a place with your foot and then adjust the hand motion and body turn with the ball.  The ball also usually comes deeper than you expect so rushing to it can create  difficulties whereas just waiting will give you an easier ball.  Just because the first bounce isn't near the end line of your side doesn't mean the ball is going to be short. It is a common mistake in table tennis to underestimate how deep a ball is going to come - it is usually further than most people think.  Also it can be easier to play up on a ball with safety than to take it on the rise even when it is high.  Just experiment and more of this should make sense hopefully.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I find it really hard to attack FH short high balls. BH short balls is straightforward, just step forward with your right leg and chiquita or BH smash, it feels really natural. For FH short balls I think you still step in with your right foot, but how do you rotate your waist in that position, it's really awkward imo... It almost always feels like I'm reaching for the ball!

Right now I prefer doing an attacking FH heavy push which is unusually effective but would like to learn how to initiate a FH topspin attack in that position.

The orientation of the foot and how far you are from the ball are key.  If you are too close or too far, you don't feel you have the leverage to play into the ball.  Guaging the appropriate distance is one of the hardest parts of forehand flicking.  Sometimes it is really more about getting the shoulder or elbow to the appropriate place and getting behind the ball.

I think you've nailed it, the foot positioning is extremely crucial. I feel like there should be three types of strokes when encountering a short high ball on the FH side. If you're early and have time you can wind up for a FH loopkill with the followthrough resulting in you facing left after the stroke, if you're late you can do a FH flick since it has less demands compared to the over the table loopkill, if you're really late you can only try to push it to 

I'm still working hard on this, I think I still miss more than I put on the table for these pop-ups on the FH side... It's frustrating because it's an earned opportunity from a well executed serve, I don't even dare to serve short sidetopspin in crucial moments because of the fear of missing the loopkill on the pop-up! 
  I would say try not to be to hasty and start swinging before the ball has bounced that is what usually starts the trouble.   Better to get to a place with your foot and then adjust the hand motion and body turn with the ball.  The ball also usually comes deeper than you expect so rushing to it can create  difficulties whereas just waiting will give you an easier ball.  Just because the first bounce isn't near the end line of your side doesn't mean the ball is going to be short. It is a common mistake in table tennis to underestimate how deep a ball is going to come - it is usually further than most people think.  Also it can be easier to play up on a ball with safety than to take it on the rise even when it is high.  Just experiment and more of this should make sense hopefully.

Yes i think slowing down and trying not to rush will help tremendously. Will put that in mind next time I play! 

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