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Illegal Serves?

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    Posted: 01/23/2020 at 9:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2020 at 11:34pm
I do not see any evil intention from the server. At that level, there is no way the receiver will be fooled by any shoulder in the way (the apparent rationale at work) since the ball is clearly seen at contact time and the hook serve components are well known; it's not like a sneaky snake move can fool anybody in that serve. 
I do enjoy those discussions so let's go!



Edited by stiltt - 01/24/2020 at 11:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2020 at 11:54pm
that is illegal serve,  the ball toss is 45% , ball hidden by chest as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 12:06am
I'm normally not one to complain but that is blatant.  Definitely illegal.

Edited by Baal - 01/24/2020 at 12:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 12:47am
It's easier to generate more spin in the hook serve if you throw it towards yourself, but that definitely will cause you to hide it with your body even if you take your left hand away immediately. I personally do it with a much more vertical toss which is harder but still doable. I think plenty of people still get fooled lol...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 1:26am
Clearly illegal...and will not be called by 95% of refs.



Edited by patrickhrdlicka - 01/24/2020 at 1:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 3:17am
I believe in the referees guideline book put out by the ITTF, as long as the toss goes over the head of the player it can go in any direction and still be legal.  This to me is kind of crazy but it is what it is.

As far as hiding the ball with his body, the camera should be from the opponents point of view to tell for sure.  I think the rule says that the ball must be visible to the opponent at all times.  This begs the question: what if the receiver sprints to a position where they are facing the servers back?  There is no way the receiver can see contact and technically should win the point. 

For example: if you are right handed and playing a lefty serving forehand from the backhand corner and you (while standing in your backhand corner) decide to move 3 feet to the left, there is no way you can see contact.  Do you win the point?  A strict interpretation of the rules as they are written implies you do. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote magnuseffect Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 3:51am
Toss angle: illegal
Free arm removed from space between ball and net as soon as ball projected: illegal
Ball hidden from receiver: Hard to tell as the receiver is a bit left of the camera.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TSuBaSa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 7:56am
Originally posted by patrickhrdlicka patrickhrdlicka wrote:

Clearly illegal...and will not be called by 95% of refs.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

I believe in the referees guideline book put out by the ITTF, as long as the toss goes over the head of the player it can go in any direction and still be legal.  This to me is kind of crazy but it is what it is.

As far as hiding the ball with his body, the camera should be from the opponents point of view to tell for sure.  I think the rule says that the ball must be visible to the opponent at all times.  This begs the question: what if the receiver sprints to a position where they are facing the servers back?  There is no way the receiver can see contact and technically should win the point. 

For example: if you are right handed and playing a lefty serving forehand from the backhand corner and you (while standing in your backhand corner) decide to move 3 feet to the left, there is no way you can see contact.  Do you win the point?  A strict interpretation of the rules as they are written implies you do. 

The ball should be visible to the netposts.  The receiver could turn around if we took the logic that far.

Also, if the ref has doubts, then you need to clean up the serve.  The rules are pretty clear about that.


Edited by NextLevel - 01/24/2020 at 9:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmugica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 10:25am
Illegal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mytoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

I believe in the referees guideline book put out by the ITTF, as long as the toss goes over the head of the player it can go in any direction and still be legal.  This to me is kind of crazy but it is what it is.

As far as hiding the ball with his body, the camera should be from the opponents point of view to tell for sure.  I think the rule says that the ball must be visible to the opponent at all times.  This begs the question: what if the receiver sprints to a position where they are facing the servers back?  There is no way the receiver can see contact and technically should win the point. 

For example: if you are right handed and playing a lefty serving forehand from the backhand corner and you (while standing in your backhand corner) decide to move 3 feet to the left, there is no way you can see contact.  Do you win the point?  A strict interpretation of the rules as they are written implies you do. 

The ball should be visible to the netposts.  The receiver could turn around if we took the logic that far.

Also, if the ref has doubts, then you need to clean up the serve.  The rules are pretty clear about that.

No-no-no Netxtlevel! Shocked The ball should not "be visible to the netpost!!" The free arm and hand   shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net. (This is the "triangle rule").

The "hidden" rule is: and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.

Two different rules! 

So the ball is hidden by something elsen than the arm/hand, you have to take into consideration where the server and receiver are standing, left hand/right hand and so on.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 5:25pm
illegal, hidden and on purpose
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Mytoman Mytoman wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

I believe in the referees guideline book put out by the ITTF, as long as the toss goes over the head of the player it can go in any direction and still be legal.  This to me is kind of crazy but it is what it is.

As far as hiding the ball with his body, the camera should be from the opponents point of view to tell for sure.  I think the rule says that the ball must be visible to the opponent at all times.  This begs the question: what if the receiver sprints to a position where they are facing the servers back?  There is no way the receiver can see contact and technically should win the point. 

For example: if you are right handed and playing a lefty serving forehand from the backhand corner and you (while standing in your backhand corner) decide to move 3 feet to the left, there is no way you can see contact.  Do you win the point?  A strict interpretation of the rules as they are written implies you do. 

The ball should be visible to the netposts.  The receiver could turn around if we took the logic that far.

Also, if the ref has doubts, then you need to clean up the serve.  The rules are pretty clear about that.

No-no-no Netxtlevel! Shocked The ball should not "be visible to the netpost!!" The free arm and hand   shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net. (This is the "triangle rule").

The "hidden" rule is: and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.

Two different rules! 

So the ball is hidden by something elsen than the arm/hand, you have to take into consideration where the server and receiver are standing, left hand/right hand and so on.



If the ball is visible to both netposts, it doesn't matter where the receiver is standing.  What is your problem with that?  At least quote me correctly.


Edited by NextLevel - 01/24/2020 at 11:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mytoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 4:32am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Mytoman Mytoman wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

I believe in the referees guideline book put out by the ITTF, as long as the toss goes over the head of the player it can go in any direction and still be legal.  This to me is kind of crazy but it is what it is.

As far as hiding the ball with his body, the camera should be from the opponents point of view to tell for sure.  I think the rule says that the ball must be visible to the opponent at all times.  This begs the question: what if the receiver sprints to a position where they are facing the servers back?  There is no way the receiver can see contact and technically should win the point. 

For example: if you are right handed and playing a lefty serving forehand from the backhand corner and you (while standing in your backhand corner) decide to move 3 feet to the left, there is no way you can see contact.  Do you win the point?  A strict interpretation of the rules as they are written implies you do. 

The ball should be visible to the netposts.  The receiver could turn around if we took the logic that far.

Also, if the ref has doubts, then you need to clean up the serve.  The rules are pretty clear about that.

No-no-no Netxtlevel! Shocked The ball should not "be visible to the netpost!!" The free arm and hand   shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net. (This is the "triangle rule").

The "hidden" rule is: and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.

Two different rules! 

So the ball is hidden by something elsen than the arm/hand, you have to take into consideration where the server and receiver are standing, left hand/right hand and so on.



If the ball is visible to both netposts, it doesn't matter where the receiver is standing.  What is your problem with that?  At least quote me correctly.

Sorry about the misquote Ouch. However, 
"The ball is visible to both netposts" (quote or not) is NOT a rule in the ITTF law chapter two. 
There are two rules:
-remove the free arm/hand from the triangle between the ball and the netposts, 
-the ball shall be visible to the receiver

=Even if the free arm/hand is removed from the triangle/area between the area between the ball and the net(posts), the ball might be covered from the receiver, and

=You can fault a "free arm" 2.6.5 with a static camera (on a tripod or similar)
=You can not fault a "hidden" 2.6.4 without an angle between the ball and the receiver

(And if the receiver turns his back to the service, it is a totally different rule...)..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 5:57am
His point isnt about it being a rule. More about if it is visible the whole time from both posts then it is not obscured from the opponant at any time no matter where they stand as everyone stands roughly between the net posts.
I want to say my posy is about this in general not the point above

So this would clear the visible reciver rule. The free arm one is still in play but if its not bieng used to hide the ball (which is why the rule is made) then it is unlikely to be called as it's not in the spirit of competitive play to call a fault to a serve that isn't providing an unfair advantage.
I know its probably still technically wrong but as long as it's not making the game unfair then why ruin the flow?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 5:58am
also I want to add that in this point he throws the ball horizontally more than half the table width making it a fault on the grounds of a vertical throw too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2020 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by passifid passifid wrote:

also I want to add that in this point he throws the ball horizontally more than half the table width making it a fault on the grounds of a vertical throw too.

Given the toss isntvthat high, yes that is a problem too.  It is almost never called.  But it is blatantly hidden.  I generally ignore illegal serve threads but this is over the top for 2020.  If I was playing this guy he would see nothing but Gatien 1990 serves.  I don't  get mad. I get even.

About 2008 I was in Beijing and played at a club against a guy who coached there some.  A foreigner at that club was a rare sight so there was something of an audience.  So, this guy made me look pretty bad with really hidden serves.  They were good serves even if they weren't completely invisible, and the spectators were laughing at my struggles.  Up until 2003 I used to spend lots of time working on hiding serves ( since it was legal and a point of emphasis by my coach at the time). Also returning them. So I brought them back.  And once I was using my left arm like a shield, he was popping the returns right where I wanted them or putting them in the net.   I was thinking, yeah mother$%&*,  you're a bit better than me, probably about 200 US rating points, but I am not going to let you humiliate me in front of your buddies. Everytime he guessed wrong about my hidden serves his club mates laughed even louder and I could tell he was losing face.  Ended well though.  We went for dinner and drank a lot.
It's amazing how quickly we alllost t the ability to read hidden serves after 2003 orwhatever  year it was that they changed the   rule.  My servecreturn skills declined  a lot over the next year or two.


Edited by Baal - 01/26/2020 at 5:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2020 at 8:31am
Many years ago LarryTT proposed that the rule be modified to state that the ball must be struck ahead of the body/hip. I always that it was the best solution. I'm surprised that even now the ITTF has not put this mod into effect.
I'm not sure, but didn't the USTTA put this as a proposal to ITTF?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2020 at 9:10am
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Many years ago LarryTT proposed that the rule be modified to state that the ball must be struck ahead of the body/hip. I always that it was the best solution. I'm surprised that even now the ITTF has not put this mod into effect.
I'm not sure, but didn't the USTTA put this as a proposal to ITTF?
 
I agree, but it would require everyone to modify their serves and no one wants to do that.  We prefer to live in this grey area where we can hide when we want to and we can also pretend to be clean when we want to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2020 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

I believe in the referees guideline book put out by the ITTF, as long as the toss goes over the head of the player it can go in any direction and still be legal.  This to me is kind of crazy but it is what it is.
  

Please show me where you find this in the Handbook for Match Officials or any other official ITTF publication.  I agree that it sounds crazy.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 10:57am
Just watch Xi Sheng vs Zhao Daming (left handed) at Aurora Cup ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrK7w9xipbE&t=833s ) and try to argue that Xi's serve is not hidden from the receiver.  Not even close to being legal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

I believe in the referees guideline book put out by the ITTF, as long as the toss goes over the head of the player it can go in any direction and still be legal.  This to me is kind of crazy but it is what it is.
  

Please show me where you find this in the Handbook for Match Officials or any other official ITTF publication.  I agree that it sounds crazy.  



I don't have time right at the moment to go look more recently but a couple of years ago the Guide for Match Officials had a diagram that showed what would be the approximately allowed angles for the toss. The book advised umpires to cut slack to players for a not perfectly vertical ( not quite 90 degree) toss but made it clear  that something like a 45 degree toss was not to be allowed.

Now for a given angle, if the toss is higher it will move farther across the table by the time it comes back down to the level where the server  can strike the ball.  It is kind of like what lightspin wrote but they are basing it on angles and they don't actually say verbatim that a toss over the head can go just anywhere.  Which of course are not always easy to determine from where match officials are seated.

I know that is what it said a couple of years ago.  Haven't looked in awhile though.  Maybe they have changed it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 4:46pm
Either here or at TTD there was a discussion about what "nearly vertical" meant.  In the thread they had a link to one of the referee's guidebooks (Not the official rule book but some book about guidelines put out by the ITTF) where they spoke about the toss within a 45 degree cone being legal in the past but now it has changed.  It said a toss within a 30 degree cone was legal.  It also said that if the ball went over the head of the player it was deemed to be legal.   The webpage had a very blue color scheme iirc. 

I will try to find it soon but also am a bit busy at the moment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

Just watch Xi Sheng vs Zhao Daming (left handed) at Aurora Cup ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrK7w9xipbE&t=833s ) and try to argue that Xi's serve is not hidden from the receiver.  Not even close to being legal.


I don't feel so bad for Zhao Daming as his serve is completely hidden as well.  His toss is near vertical and he deserves credit for that but he is hiding contact in my opinion. 

The ITTF needs to change the rules to either allow hidden serves or maybe as someone suggested here have the contact of the ball in front of both hips.  Right now things are too unclear and people are trying to get away with as much as they can...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Either here or at TTD there was a discussion about what "nearly vertical" meant.  In the thread they had a link to one of the referee's guidebooks (Not the official rule book but some book about guidelines put out by the ITTF) where they spoke about the toss within a 45 degree cone being legal in the past but now it has changed.  It said a toss within a 30 degree cone was legal.  It also said that if the ball went over the head of the player it was deemed to be legal.   The webpage had a very blue color scheme iirc. 

I will try to find it soon but also am a bit busy at the moment. 


Yes.  In fact I was the one who posted it. It came during a notorious flame war here with One Who Shall Remain Nameless.  I was suggesting that in his prime ZJK was probably serving very close to illegally because of his toss angle.  Ironic because I am not one who normally complains about pros or my opponents serving illegally.  I might have also mentioned it at TTD, but for sure here. 

The guidance didn't say that a toss going over someone's head  automatically makes a serve legal.  However in practice people tossing the ball that high are probably using an angle that is within the range of what the ITTF suggests umpires should allow. 

But if an umpire thinks you are too far from vertical, he/she will call it.  It is a judgment.  In practice, rarely called.
---------------
I have gone and looked at the 2019 Handbook for Match Officials.  The guidance in the 2019 edition hasn't changed from what I remember from earlier editions (going back to around 2015 I think).  Here it is what it says.

Throwing the Ball

10.3.1  The server is required to throw the ball “near vertically” upwards and it must rise at least 16 cm after leaving his or her hand. This means it must rise within a few degrees of the vertical, rather than within the angle of 45° that was formerly specified, and that it must rise far enough for the umpire to be sure that it is thrown upwards and not sideways or diagonally.In Diagram10.3.1.1services B and C are acceptable, whilst A and D are not.The height of the toss is also a factor in determining whether the toss is near vertical. In Diagram 10.3.1.2,the ball is projected from, and struck at, the same place, but service A is a fault, whilst B is acceptable.

With that text they provide a pair of diagrams showing basically what I described above.  16 cm is about 6 inches for people who like to use old fashioned units.  The diagram they show indicates that a high toss can be acceptable even if the ball travels pretty far to the side by the time it comes back down.  The same degree of lateral travel would be illegal with a lower toss. By "formerly specified" I don't personally recall when a 45 degree toss was legal. It must have been pretty long ago.

And on this basis every one of the serves from the player in the original video of this thread is illegal.  Not just for the hiding, but also for the extreme deviation from vertical toss, which is how he is able to hide using that hook motion.


Edited by Baal - 01/28/2020 at 7:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I don't have time right at the moment to go look more recently but a couple of years ago the Guide for Match Officials had a diagram that showed what would be the approximately allowed angles for the toss. The book advised umpires to cut slack to players for a not perfectly vertical ( not quite 90 degree) toss but made it clear  that something like a 45 degree toss was not to be allowed. 

That diagram has been in the Handbook for Match Officials for a few years.  It says nothing about tossing above the head.  Given that release points can be quite high, I don't see "above the head" as any kind of reasonable surrogate for the diagram given in the handbook.  The diagram in the handbook is significantly lacking as it is.  No need to make things any worse.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Either here or at TTD there was a discussion about what "nearly vertical" meant.  In the thread they had a link to one of the referee's guidebooks (Not the official rule book but some book about guidelines put out by the ITTF) where they spoke about the toss within a 45 degree cone being legal in the past but now it has changed.  It said a toss within a 30 degree cone was legal.  It also said that if the ball went over the head of the player it was deemed to be legal.   The webpage had a very blue color scheme iirc. 

I will try to find it soon but also am a bit busy at the moment. 

I'm familiar with the Handbook for Match Officials.  Given what you wrote, I checked the most recent version.  I saw nothing about "over the head."  I don't think you will find any such thing from an official ITTF source.  But the ITTF does do some stupid things from time to time.  So maybe they have said such a thing.  But it is a stupid thing to say given what the actual rules state. So I'm betting that you are actually recalling someone else's interpretation.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Either here or at TTD there was a discussion about what "nearly vertical" meant.  In the thread they had a link to one of the referee's guidebooks (Not the official rule book but some book about guidelines put out by the ITTF) where they spoke about the toss within a 45 degree cone being legal in the past but now it has changed.  It said a toss within a 30 degree cone was legal.  It also said that if the ball went over the head of the player it was deemed to be legal.   The webpage had a very blue color scheme iirc. 

I will try to find it soon but also am a bit busy at the moment. 

I'm familiar with the Handbook for Match Officials.  Given what you wrote, I checked the most recent version.  I saw nothing about "over the head."  I don't think you will find any such thing from an official ITTF source.  But the ITTF does do some stupid things from time to time.  So maybe they have said such a thing.  But it is a stupid thing to say given what the actual rules state. So I'm betting that you are actually recalling someone else's interpretation.



I heard it from a friend as a suggestion by Waldner, not as something in the ITTF rule book.  That most of the issues with service could be addressed if the ball forced to go above someone's head height while serving.

 But I guess Lightspin will find it eventually.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 9:13pm
I heard it from a friend as a suggestion by Waldner, not as something in the ITTF rule book.  That most of the issues with service could be addressed if the ball forced to go above someone's head height while serving.

 But I guess Lightspin will find it eventually. - Nextlevel


We could be throwing the ball sky high and the serve will still be called if the ball is hidden or the opponent's view is obstructed by the free hand, arm, head, face, shoulder, shirt, body; if the free hand is cupped such that the ball is gripped by it or that spin is imparted onto the ball when the ball is thrown upwards; if the free hand is not stationary before the ball is projected upwards; if the ball is at any time inside the playing surface during the serve; if the ball is intentionally or otherwise brought down below the table playing surface; if the server struck the ball when it was still moving upwards after being thrown ( would not have mattered if the ball was still going upwards; having gone higher then the head of the server and struck it ).

How then could we say most issues could be addressed during a serve if the ball was thrown high enough or that it was thrown upwards at 90 degree but most of the other requirements are not adhered to...... of course unless we are talking about our own ' house rules '.
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