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Illegal Serves?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2020 at 10:32pm
Right now the server wins slightly more than 50% of points.  Chiquita backhands and 40+ balls changed a lot in our sport.  

Edited by Baal - 02/05/2020 at 10:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2020 at 6:37am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Real umpires working at the highest level of the sport, in other words not Igor, have never once calledvTimo Boll for an illegal serve on any video of him I have watched.  Current serve rules went into effect in early 2000s.  So this is most of his career and a LOT of videos.

Be glad Igor is not umpiring YOUR matches.

This is not quite true. Timo's toss height has been an issue (wrongly IMO) and has been warned often about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2020 at 6:38am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Right now the server wins slightly more than 50% of points.  Chiquita backhands and 40+ balls changed a lot in our sport.  
Two serves instead of five (or 11pt instead of 21pt games) also played a role.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sabiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2020 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

I do not see any evil intention from the server. 

SERIOUSLY ? I did not know the umpires can make calls based on "intentions" 
 


Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

there is no way the receiver will be fooled 

Again, how does it matter as to (the legality of a serve) whether the receiver will be fooled ? At the amateur level, you want to fool the receiver as much as possible. But at the professional level, the receiver will be fooled very little in most cases. However at the professional level, may be the goal should be minimize the impact of the serves as much as possible, to maximize spectator involvement with longer rallies. It is not like most spectators in table tennis love to watch a receiver missing (most) receives with a spin misread, unless it is an outright ace which is based mostly on speed rather than spin misread (though unlike in tennis, where the speed of the (flat) serve in an ace seems to be enjoyed by the spectators more)  


Edited by Sabiz - 02/10/2020 at 2:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sabiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2020 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Right now the server wins slightly more than 50% of points.  Chiquita backhands and 40+ balls changed a lot in our sport.  

You meant to say " changed the sport of table-tennis a lot "  ?!

Anyway it seems to me that the above two statements by you seem to contradict each other. 
Assuming you have at least some rudimentary statistics to show that more that server wins more than 50% of points,  wouldn't Chiquita backhands nullifying effectiveness of serves actually reduce the probability of server winning points (more than 50%). ?

Also if server is winning more than 50% points , that is very bad for table tennis.  In tennis for example you are expected to hold serve (at least on grass) , but in table tennis if serves are so much more effective, then maybe more rule changes are needed to lessen the impact of serves to create longer rallies for spectator involvement / enjoyment may be, even if you claim the rallies are longer than before (which really aren't due to rampant illegal regluing / boosting and third ball attacks / errors which lessen spectator involvement (at professional level...it is not important at amateur level to promote the sport & make it popular like pickleball now and tennis before) ...............I don't think spectators enjoy serve & smash excessively in table tennis at the professional level,  as much as they enjoy(ed) the forgotten art of serve and volley like the greats McEnroe / Becker / Edberg etc etc )  


Edited by Sabiz - 02/10/2020 at 2:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2020 at 12:14am
Originally posted by Sabiz Sabiz wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Right now the server wins slightly more than 50% of points.  Chiquita backhands and 40+ balls changed a lot in our sport.  

You meant to say " changed the sport of table-tennis a lot "  ?!

Anyway it seems to me that the above two statements by you seem to contradict each other. 
Assuming you have at least some rudimentary statistics to show that more that server wins more than 50% of points,  wouldn't Chiquita backhands nullifying effectiveness of serves actually reduce the probability of server winning points (more than 50%). ?

Also if server is winning more than 50% points , that is very bad for table tennis.  In tennis for example you are expected to hold serve (at least on grass) , but in table tennis if serves are so much more effective, then maybe more rule changes are needed to lessen the impact of serves to create longer rallies for spectator involvement / enjoyment may be, even if you claim the rallies are longer than before (which really aren't due to rampant illegal regluing / boosting and third ball attacks / errors which lessen spectator involvement (at professional level...it is not important at amateur level to promote the sport & make it popular like pickleball now and tennis before) ...............I don't think spectators enjoy serve & smash excessively in table tennis at the professional level,  as much as they enjoy(ed) the forgotten art of serve and volley like the greats McEnroe / Becker / Edberg etc etc )  

Servers used to win a much higher percentage.  It is much closer to parity now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2020 at 5:27pm
And here I was thinking this thread was dead!

As we're here, let's think about a couple of points that have been made.

First up, the length of rallies.  The last time I saw any credible statistics, rally length was increasing.  Following changes to the rules - specifically, no hidden serves, no speed glue and introduction of 40mm ball - statistics kept by ITTF showed an increase in rally length with each change.  (Please don't ask me to find the source for this; it's too long ago and I'm too old and tired to go looking.  Just for once, believe me.)  However, the actual numbers are something like 3.2 shots per rally average in the hidden serve/spped glue/38mm ball era and 3.6 after the rule changes.  (Again, please just accept these are very rough, ball-park numbers from my failing memory.  Point is: it's something of this order of magnitude.  Still less than 4 per rally average.)

My question: How much difference does this make to spectator enjoyment?

Second point: Regardless of all the other red herrings that get thrown around in these debates, the laws of the game say:
2.6.6  It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect.
If the server chooses to push the limits of legality, there can be no crying if the umpire or the assistant are not satisfied.  I just wish more umpires and assistants had the guts to say, "Sorry.  Not satisfied."  And the responsibility for satisfying the umpires rests wholly and solely with the server.  Bad luck.  Try again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2020 at 5:38pm
It seems to me that for a year or two chiquita returns were almost always winners or set up easy winners when they landed.  As a result some players were starting to use nothing but chiquita on any serve they could.  But lately (at least at pro level) it seems that more chiquita returns are being counter attacked and that players are using more of a push/ chiquita mix to keep the server off balance.

Has anyone else had this same impression?

Mark - If you land a chiquita I am toast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2020 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

It seems to me that for a year or two chiquita returns were almost always winners or set up easy winners when they landed.  As a result some players were starting to use nothing but chiquita on any serve they could.  But lately (at least at pro level) it seems that more chiquita returns are being counter attacked and that players are using more of a push/ chiquita mix to keep the server off balance.

Has anyone else had this same impression?

Mark - If you land a chiquita I am toast.


Yes I noticed this. People practiced the shit out of being chiquita'd on the serve and are super ready for it. I suspect serves even bait out the flick to certain locations. The up and coming kids are even more ready for it.

The short push is long from dead.


Edited by wilkinru - 02/11/2020 at 5:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2020 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

It seems to me that for a year or two chiquita returns were almost always winners or set up easy winners when they landed.  As a result some players were starting to use nothing but chiquita on any serve they could.  But lately (at least at pro level) it seems that more chiquita returns are being counter attacked and that players are using more of a push/ chiquita mix to keep the server off balance.

Has anyone else had this same impression?

Mark - If you land a chiquita I am toast.

At my level my chiquitas were rarely returned tbh... but nobody among my circle is serving to my BH short corner anymore so there's almost zero opportunity to do it... It's mostly FH short + fast deep long serves to elbow and deep BH Cry 

I see the same pattern among pro players too to jam the chiquita players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2020 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

And here I was thinking this thread was dead!

As we're here, let's think about a couple of points that have been made.

First up, the length of rallies.  The last time I saw any credible statistics, rally length was increasing.  Following changes to the rules - specifically, no hidden serves, no speed glue and introduction of 40mm ball - statistics kept by ITTF showed an increase in rally length with each change.  (Please don't ask me to find the source for this; it's too long ago and I'm too old and tired to go looking.  Just for once, believe me.)  However, the actual numbers are something like 3.2 shots per rally average in the hidden serve/spped glue/38mm ball era and 3.6 after the rule changes.  (Again, please just accept these are very rough, ball-park numbers from my failing memory.  Point is: it's something of this order of magnitude.  Still less than 4 per rally average.)

My question: How much difference does this make to spectator enjoyment?

Second point: Regardless of all the other red herrings that get thrown around in these debates, the laws of the game say:
2.6.6  It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect.
If the server chooses to push the limits of legality, there can be no crying if the umpire or the assistant are not satisfied.  I just wish more umpires and assistants had the guts to say, "Sorry.  Not satisfied."  And the responsibility for satisfying the umpires rests wholly and solely with the server.  Bad luck.  Try again.


And still we see endless threads complaining about pro players' serves, including about pro players who are literally NEVER called for serving illegally. Timo Boll on this thread for example.

So by the same token, when umpires don't  call serves illegal, let it go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2020 at 9:49pm
... or BECOME an International Umpire... and not get paid worth Ur time and put in the corresponding effort to the job...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2020 at 10:25pm
I am trying to learn how to serve illegally.
Any guide out there how to hide the ball for the pendulum serve?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2020 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I am trying to learn how to serve illegally.
Any guide out there how to hide the ball for the pendulum serve?

Easy, just leave your nonplaying arm as long as possible out there blocking your opponent's view LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2020 at 1:18am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I am trying to learn how to serve illegally.
Any guide out there how to hide the ball for the pendulum serve?

Easy, just leave your nonplaying arm as long as possible out there blocking your opponent's view LOL
That's too obvious.  For a serve that is more challenging to learn and less obvious, go to YT and search for 'maharu yoshimura serve'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2020 at 1:28am
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I am trying to learn how to serve illegally.
Any guide out there how to hide the ball for the pendulum serve?

Easy, just leave your nonplaying arm as long as possible out there blocking your opponent's view LOL
That's too obvious.  For a serve that is more challenging to learn and less obvious, go to YT and search for 'maharu yoshimura serve'.

Like this? Tongue


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2020 at 7:29am
Yoshimura' serves are patently 100 per cent illegal.
Apart from the balls being obstructed by his face and shoulder, the contact point of the ball during his serves are overwhelmingly hidden from the opponents view. Do not understand why his serves were/are not called in sanctioned events.
Of course, there is no harm if anyone wishes to learn how to hide his/her serves and use this skill ( no doubt it is a skill LOL ) in non sanctioned competitions where the ITTF rules on the Laws of Table Tennis do not apply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2020 at 10:08am
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I am trying to learn how to serve illegally.
Seriously?  You're basically saying you're a cheat and want to be an even better cheat.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2020 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I am trying to learn how to serve illegally.
Seriously?  You're basically saying you're a cheat and want to be an even better cheat.


Not necessarily.  If your opponent serves illegally and refuses to serve legally, then it's valid and appropriate to respond in kind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2020 at 8:55am
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I am trying to learn how to serve illegally.
Seriously?  You're basically saying you're a cheat and want to be an even better cheat.


Not necessarily.  If your opponent serves illegally and refuses to serve legally, then it's valid and appropriate to respond in kind.
Can you show me where it says that in the rule book?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2020 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I am trying to learn how to serve illegally.
Seriously?  You're basically saying you're a cheat and want to be an even better cheat.


Not necessarily.  If your opponent serves illegally and refuses to serve legally, then it's valid and appropriate to respond in kind.
Can you show me where it says that in the rule book?
It's called the rule of common sense.  In a non-umpired game, it's not going to get called. In an umpired game, I would complain to the umpire.  If that doesn't resolve the issue, then I would do what I need to do.  Are you going to allow your opponent an unfair advantage or just suck it up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2020 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I am trying to learn how to serve illegally.
Seriously?  You're basically saying you're a cheat and want to be an even better cheat.


Not necessarily.  If your opponent serves illegally and refuses to serve legally, then it's valid and appropriate to respond in kind.
Can you show me where it says that in the rule book?

Can you show us how your brain works in the rule book?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2020 at 6:33pm
In most games in local leagues, up to the final few rounds, you usually have 1 umpire. It is very difficult for that umpire to call services hidden by the shoulder, head, or where the hand is removed at the last time.

The serve also need not do this at every point, but just 2-3 times a game, stop get an unfair advantage.
Its good to have something to square things up.

Some thing many people don't realize is that a lot of juniors play to win, and not just for fun. They use every trick available to win and have been coached that way. Thats unfortunately the way it is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2020 at 8:07pm
Hiding the ball with the head is a concept that escapes me.  The key thing is to see the ball when it strikes the server's racket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2020 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Hiding the ball with the head is a concept that escapes me.  The key thing is to see the ball when it strikes the server's racket.


Easy. The server is not trying to hide the ball with the head. He is trying to hide the contact with his body by striking the ball in the area of his right hip (right-handed server). In so doing, the ball's trajectory ends up  behind the head at some point.

Having said that, some players do deliberately try to hide the contact with the head. But they actually dip their head during the serve action.


Edited by Tinykin - 02/14/2020 at 8:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2020 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:


Easy. The server is not trying to hide the ball with the head. He is trying to hide the contact with his body by striking the ball in the area of his right hip (right-handed server). In so doing, the ball's trajectory ends up  behind the head at some point.


Yes, but not just contact.  They want to hide as much of the paddle motion before and after as possible.  Put another way, they want to provide the narrowest and shortest glimpse of the contact as they can. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2020 at 11:22pm
Dudes.  I've played as long as you guys.  Hiding the ball with your body or arm us hiding.  I was really g o do at it.  You cant hide contact with just your head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2020 at 1:12am
Baal wrote:
--They can't hide the ball by head

The stony-face umpire of Egipt, the real man to honour, he saw the things otherwise to Baal's view. Shielding the ball with a head , even if momentary, is a clear fault.
Quote Rule 2.6.4   From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the
playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from
the receiver by the server
or his or her double partner.


https://youtu.be/2qOY6wk98eI?t=311
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2020 at 2:34am
Haha I had the opposite experience... A dude in the club was very insistent on calling each of my serves illegal to throw me off during practice games, but he doesn't even throw the ball high enough, doesn't wait till you're ready to serve, and miscounts scores in his favour LOL....

It was funny coz he was calling a tomahawk serve with a vertical toss struck to the right of my head illegal...wtf  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2020 at 3:06am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Dudes.  I've played as long as you guys.  Hiding the ball with your body or arm us hiding.  I was really g o do at it.  You cant hide contact with just your head.

You seem to be trying to miss the point. 

Nobody is saying that you hide contact with your head.  In fact, I don't think many (any?) of us are even saying that contact is consistently being hidden.  What we are saying is that the goal is to hide as much of the paddle motion and put as much "stuff" in the field of view of the contact point as possible and maybe sometimes hide contact ... though not with your head, but by an arm, hand, hip etc.  

The best ways of doing this seems to be to bend down so the ball passes behind your head, dip your lead shoulder down and in, and then make contact very close to your hip.   Done right, this can make it a LOT harder to read a serve.  I'd also add that leaving your arm out, flipping out your hand or clenched fist and maybe removing these things at the last minute instead of immediately also make the serve harder to read.  And in a non-umpired match, these distractions are even greater since you have to start looking for them specifically to understand what it is that is getting in the way of you seeing the serve.

I have no problem with trying to hide the paddle and paddle motion per se.  There is nothing illegal in that.  But when you accomplish that hiding by breaking other rules, then I have a problem. At least I do from the standpoint of being a club or tournament official.  As a player, I gave up years ago worrying about it.  

Everybody seems to understand that the other rules (edge balls, nets, etc.) should be followed and enforced equally.  I don't understand why there should be so much confusion and debate about serve rules. The serve rules are pretty easy to follow.


Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Gambler Zebra Classic w/ Dr. Evil
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