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Is waldner the greatest table tennis player ever!

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    Posted: 07/30/2017 at 1:15am
is he better than malong , fan zhendong!

I think Chinese now a days and much faster than 10 year back they were but still waldner is considered as greatest ever...

Read out below article:

https://www.sportsflu.com/table-tennis/jan-ove-waldner-greatest-ever-born/

Share your thinking....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 2:26am
Greatest is different from best. Of course techniques and tactics are much better developed nowadays, as in any sport. But when you have so many changes of material, any comparison about who is better is not fair.
But looking for the greatest ever I believe Waldner is the one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 2:35am

Never ending debate

You can only compare him to players who have won a similar number of titles.

How do you compare the 38mm ball era to the 40mm and now the plastic ?

How do you compare the speed glue era to the oil boosted ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 11:34am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Greatest is different from best. Of course techniques and tactics are much better developed nowadays, as in any sport. But when you have so many changes of material, any comparison about who is better is not fair.
But looking for the greatest ever I believe Waldner is the one. 


Here is my thinking:  Ma Long is greater.

I agree that it is hard to compare 38 mm to 40+ era (I have played throughout) because some of the things you can do now would have been simply impossible with 38 balls. There is a reason why people weren't ripping BH returns quite the same way then.  That ball didn't dip anything like current ones.

So since we are talking about "greatest"  on other criteria, lets look at some actual results.  (Know that I am a huge Waldner fan but facts are facts).

Waldner:  1 Olympic Gold Medal; 2 WTTC championships.  1 World Cup.  1 ETTC championship.  Longevity.  Creativity.  In one of the WTTCs he did not lose a single 21-point game.  Played with style and flare.

Ma Long.  1 Olympic Gold Medal; 2 WTTC championships.  2 World Cups.  ITTF World Grand Tour finals (didn't exist in Waldner's prime, but Ma Long has won it 5 times).  China National Games gold (held once every four years, arguably most difficult gold medal of all to win, but only available for Chinese).  3 golds in ATTC (!!). Did not lose a single game in WTTC team event in 2016.  In the World Cup in 2016, he lost only a single game on the way to the gold medal (these are 11-point game matches, not 21). He has also won a WTTC in doubles.  Waldner competed in doubles but never won a medal, in spite of playing with elite teammates throughout his career.  There are at least five other ITTF world tour tournaments where Ma Long won the singles without losing a single 11-point game.  Ma Long has spent an unprecedented 59 months ranked #1 in the world.  His lifetime head-to-head won-loss record against Zhang Jike (another grand slam winner) is 31-10.  Against FZD it is 19-8.  He has a lifetime favorable W-L record against everybody (including his early career nemesis Wang Hao).  Plays with overwhelming power, indeed so much that at times it is easy to miss the really subtle things he does. 

Ma Long is simply more dominant than Waldner ever was.  I am aware that the weakness of what I wrote is that it is quite a bit easier to find these statistics for Ma Long, but still, I am old enough to clearly remember Waldner (and his predecessors) in their prime.  Waldner was capable of losing to much weaker players if he was not motivated or hung over or whatever. 

In my opinion the only way to conclude that Waldner was greater than Ma Long is either (1)  because you simply prefer European, or at least non-Chinese players, and/or (2) you argue that the European players were tougher in his era and the Chinese players were as good as now, (3) because you highly value his "creativity" or something, and/or (4) because you account for his longevity, which is simply not something any Chinese player can enjoy because of the way their team is organized and because of their depth.  As for creativity if you watch the way Ma Long defeated FZD, you can see plenty of creativity and tactical brilliance.  I think European players were tougher in Waldner's era but the Chinese players were weaker during the first half of his career.  Also, regarding longevity, we haven't reached the end of Ma Long's career yet, so we don't know how long he will be at the top.

As for FZD, he has yet to accomplish anything that would put him in this conversation.  Zhang Jike has.  Wang Liqin did.  But not FZD (yet). 

In my view Ma Long is the greater player.  (Much the way Federer surpassed Sampras).

Anticipating Berndt, yes, I know.  Barna etc. etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 1:01pm
Here I come, Baal.  You knew I would.  Barna, etc., etc.

This topic has been well mined before, and your opinion and mine are a matter of record.  I refer you to my post of June 18, 2017, the thread being the Japan Open 2017, detailing Barna's accomplishments from 1929 (when Barna was 18) to 1954 (when he was 43).

And all of this achieved without speed glues or boosters, hidden or not quite legal services which an umpire seldom calls, a Ministry of Sport, the CNT's training facilities and its coaching staff, evermore technologically advanced rubbers which can catapult a ball (even a 40+ mm. ball) out of play so quickly so that even the world's best contemporary defensive players cannot ultimately prevent this (they may be able to stave off their own demise until the death knell 11-point bell sounds, however).


Edited by berndt_mann - 07/30/2017 at 1:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 2:57pm
When we can produce a time machine and get Ma Long and Waldner in his prime to combat each other we might resolve the question. As for Barna, well.... he would get destroyed by both.

 My hunch is Ma Long would come on top. He is just too overpowering.

Nevertheless, Waldner matches are still interesting to watch. He had so many tricks up his sleeve that even today I don't see anyone with as many techniques as he had.

All we can do is speculate. But for sure Barna would get  destroyed. hahahaha

FdT


Edited by Fulanodetal - 07/30/2017 at 3:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


Never ending debate

You can only compare him to players who have won a similar number of titles.

How do you compare the 38mm ball era to the 40mm and now the plastic ?

How do you compare the speed glue era to the oil boosted ?


ma long has played 10 years and waldner has played 20+ waldner should be at least 3 times world single champion. if waldner would be the best he should have more tittles than anyone else some people are still living in the past and cant get over that.



Edited by bbkon - 07/30/2017 at 3:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

When we can produce a time machine and get Ma Long and Waldner in his prime to combat each other we might resolve the question. As for Barna, well.... he would get destroyed by both.

 My hunch is Ma Long would come on top. He is just too overpowering.

Nevertheless, Waldner matches are still interesting to watch. He had so many tricks up his sleeve that even today I don't see anyone with as many techniques as he had.

All we can do is speculate. But for sure Barna would get  destroyed. hahahaha

FdT


Zhang jike would also destroy waldner if he is in his wttc 2011 form. Same goes for wang hao. But you have to consider that techniques are way more advanced now and everyone has access to this. So there are a lot more players with almost every top weapon. So staying on top in today's time is way harder. But one thing came up to my mind a few weeks ago was that I kind of feel like ma long didn't have as hard of a competition in 2015-2017 as Zhang jike had in 2011-2013. Which players were top in wttc 2015? Zjk was already out same with xu xin and Timo boll. Ovtcharov didn't even make it into the top 16 so the only competition was fan Zhendong and fang bo who played very well. Ma long's only opponent really is fan Zhendong right now. In Zhang jike's 2011 wttc there were a lot more good players. Timo boll was very good in that tournament, same goes for wang hao, ma long, wang liqin, ma Lin, xu xin, joo see huyk etc. just some of my thoughts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 4:39pm
Not another thread...

Where were these threads for ZJK when he overtook Waldner in the 3 majors in 2014.

As stated in the other thread, Ma Long is the most decorated PERIOD

Great? Yes. Greatest of All Time? Not quite. Why, you ask?

So long as people don't/can't eliminate personal bias in their less than objective views, there is absolutely no point in debating over this shit. As I stated in the other thread, "what do you think?" does not mean "what do you want?"

Quote I am still not convinced ZJK is "the greatest of all time". He may be arguably "the greatest Chinese player of all time". However, no matter how many titles he wins, he is still a product of the Chinese TT system/machine, not comparable to JO. 


Quote I am really happy for him. I think he is better than ZJ K, and if he could get another world championship or Olympic champ, he will be alone by himself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote book4all Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 5:14pm
How to define the greatest? Longevity? Or the most decorated? Or both? or neither? 

If longevity, it is not Ma Long. 
If the most decorated, it is not Waldner. 

For longevity, it is still too early to compare Ma Long with Waldner. 
For the most decorated, Ma Long is already beating Waldner. 

So with one feature comparable, the winner is Ma Long. 
Though Ma Long is still too young to be called the greatest. 

If there is a standard to compare, there will be an answer. Otherwise, this will just be a fun topic to argue about. 
Smile


Edited by book4all - 07/30/2017 at 5:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Here I come, Baal.  You knew I would.  Barna, etc., etc.

This topic has been well mined before, and your opinion and mine are a matter of record.  I refer you to my post of June 18, 2017, the thread being the Japan Open 2017, detailing Barna's accomplishments from 1929 (when Barna was 18) to 1954 (when he was 43).

And all of this achieved without speed glues or boosters, hidden or not quite legal services which an umpire seldom calls, a Ministry of Sport, the CNT's training facilities and its coaching staff, evermore technologically advanced rubbers which can catapult a ball (even a 40+ mm. ball) out of play so quickly so that even the world's best contemporary defensive players cannot ultimately prevent this (they may be able to stave off their own demise until the death knell 11-point bell sounds, however).


The OP was comparing Waldner to Ma Long. 

But it is important to add that Barna never had to face elite Asian competition in the way people have had to do from the 1950s until now -- insanely strong and disciplined professional competition nurtured by a massive government-supported apparatus.  His relative competition was therefore far weaker and pretty much limited to players from a few parts of Europe and North America.  When people in Japan and China and later Korea took up the sport, they introduced new levels of play and training that were unheard of in Barna's day.

Now, of course, Ma Long has the benefit of that, but he also has to face the unrelenting beneficiaries of that -- his own teammates. 

In fact, it has long been said that one of the most remarkable things of all time is that Swedish teams occasionally beat Chinese times given that there quite a few Chinese cities with populations greater than Sweden.  The era from the time of Alser and Johannson to the end of Waldner/Persson is remarkable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

When we can produce a time machine and get Ma Long and Waldner in his prime to combat each other we might resolve the question. As for Barna, well.... he would get destroyed by both.

 My hunch is Ma Long would come on top. He is just too overpowering.

Nevertheless, Waldner matches are still interesting to watch. He had so many tricks up his sleeve that even today I don't see anyone with as many techniques as he had.

All we can do is speculate. But for sure Barna would get  destroyed. hahahaha

FdT


Zhang jike would also destroy waldner if he is in his wttc 2011 form. Same goes for wang hao. But you have to consider that techniques are way more advanced now and everyone has access to this. So there are a lot more players with almost every top weapon. So staying on top in today's time is way harder. But one thing came up to my mind a few weeks ago was that I kind of feel like ma long didn't have as hard of a competition in 2015-2017 as Zhang jike had in 2011-2013. Which players were top in wttc 2015? Zjk was already out same with xu xin and Timo boll. Ovtcharov didn't even make it into the top 16 so the only competition was fan Zhendong and fang bo who played very well. Ma long's only opponent really is fan Zhendong right now. In Zhang jike's 2011 wttc there were a lot more good players. Timo boll was very good in that tournament, same goes for wang hao, ma long, wang liqin, ma Lin, xu xin, joo see huyk etc. just some of my thoughts.


Yes, but see my comment above about Ma Long's winning won-loss record against ZJK, FZD, and actually everyone he has ever faced in history.  The only person against whom it is even close to even is Wang Hao, and even there Ma Long won slightly more than he lost.  Against ZJK it is quite lopsided in favor of Ma Long.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 5:34pm
Wang hao destroyed ma long in the important events win/loss ratio
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

When we can produce a time machine and get Ma Long and Waldner in his prime to combat each other we might resolve the question. As for Barna, well.... he would get destroyed by both.

 My hunch is Ma Long would come on top. He is just too overpowering.

Nevertheless, Waldner matches are still interesting to watch. He had so many tricks up his sleeve that even today I don't see anyone with as many techniques as he had.

All we can do is speculate. But for sure Barna would get  destroyed. hahahaha

FdT

We have a lot of extremely clever people on this forum.  Thus it should be no problem for one or more of them to produce a time machine so we can settle this GOAT question once and for all.

Let's go back to, say 1931.  Barna is 20, and it just so happens he is playing against Ma Long, who also happens to be 20.  Barna is wielding his trusty Becker Barna personal bat covered with the finest short pips without sponge Europe is capable of producing.  Ma Long, in turn, is drawing down with a Double Happiness blade plastered with the finest Friendship short pips without sponge Chinese technology is capable of.  Needless to say, both Barna's and Ma's blades are made exclusively of wood.

Let's say that they are playing in Wembley Stadium in mid-winter.  The temperature inside the stadium, despite the heat generated by 15,000 spectators, is about 45 degrees Fahrenheit.  The balls are 38 mm.  The expedite rule has yet to come into existence.

Barna starts Ma off with a short heavy backspin serve which Ma, trying to Chiquita, nets.  The next point ends abruptly with a Barna off the bounce backhand from an attempted Ma hardbat loop crashing into Ma's armpit.  

Barna smiles pleasantly but looks bored.  And so it goes, and goes, and goes.  Ma somehow manages to put a couple of forehands past Barna following up his serve, which, this being 1931, does not give Barna any major problems, but if the point goes past 5 shots, Ma is toast.  Barna's deadly backhand, consistent forehand, and formidable defense are simply too much for Ma.

Games and match to Barna, 21-8, 21-7.

Next up is the 20 year old Waldner.  Waldner's serve.  Barna backhand chops it back easily.  Waldner tries a forehand topspin but not enough acceleration with a 1931 Stiga hardbat.  Net city.  And once again, so it goes, and goes, and goes.  

Games and match to Barna 21-6, 21-7.


Edited by berndt_mann - 07/30/2017 at 5:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 6:14pm
Lol give Ma long the worst fake hurricane rubber that you can find on a simple stigma wood. He's gonna destroy barna
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 6:35pm
Directly to the OP-no I don't think JO was the greatest, but in his era he was the most distinguished and creative player who laid the fundamentals of the modern game. Undeniably ML has more titles and medals and that's it, but speaking about contribution to our sport, well....

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On ML destroying ZJK, there are views in China that had ML beat ZJK in the final at the 2nd trial for WTTC Moscow in 2010, ZJK wouldn't have had the chance to accomplish what he would eventually have had. That hard-earned win was pivotal in ZJK's career trajectory.

Color commentary by LGL.


Another point is that had ML beat TB in the team final at the WTTC Moscow, and then not had a flare-up in his left ankle in the later half of 2010, ZJK wouldn't have had the chance to play in the World Cup that year. ZJK admitted back then he still was no match for WH, but that WC gave him those precious experience points.



Had WH not had cold feet, ZJK wouldn't even have had the chance to play in that team final.

If ML were as greatest as some may THINK(read WANT), he should've had accomplished his first grand slam much sooner. ZJK was no favorite for the WTTC Paris. ML was the crowd favorite, yet those CNT members avoided ZJK like the plague in the trial when they had the chance to pick which group to go to. ZJK was in his worst-ever form before WC 2014. ML was already UNBEATABLE-esque. What happened?

After achieving that grand slam FINALLY over a half-dead ZJK and with WH out of the picture, he wrote in a script for the variety show "真实的声音"(True Voice, in which guests tell their stories) on March 2, 2017, that at one point in time, he wanted to off WH, and that his loss at WTTC Paris is the worst-ever and most regretful match in his career. He played so bad in that match, that at the end of the match, even WH was puzzled and asked him if he hurt his foot or what(which was confirmed by WH on his Weibo in an inquiry by a fan years ago.) He also talked about the WC final between him and ZJK, that after losing 3:4 in games, his time stopped and he felt like quitting table tennis for good.

Clip:
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Edited by zeio - 07/30/2017 at 10:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Lol give Ma long the worst fake hurricane rubber that you can find on a simple stigma wood. He's gonna destroy barna

Dear Mr. Gold,

You'll have to find your own time machine, in which case you can imagine any outcome, however unlikely in 1931 terms, that your heart and mind desires.

In my hypothetical fantasy and time machine invented by one or some of the more creative members of this particular forum, neither "the worst fake hurricane rubber that (I) can find" or "a simple stigma wood" (sic) were known to exist.

Thus the unfortunate Ma and the hapless Waldner, though again in my fantasy the same age as the 20 year old Barna, would have to incorporate the blades and rubbers I (remember, this is after all my fantasy) described in it for them.  No hurricane or hurricane fake inverted rubbers permitted.  Also no modern fancy-ass illegal serves, half-assed 11-point games. or expedite shortened 10-yard dashes because somebody gets too tired.  

Nobody including myself has claimed that Ma, Waldner, or for that manner any other spongeslinger of note after 1955 (Ogimura and Tanaka) to 2017 (Ma, Zhang, Fan, Xu) could not take out Barna with either their prehistoric sponge, Zhuang Zedong style short pipped sponge, Klampar, Jonyer and Waldner speed glued inverted sponge, or today's boosted inverted sponge.

Hard rubber however, lacking sponge or additives, is a different animal.  I very strongly suspect that any current sponge deity or one of the recent past such as Waldner would have enjoyed playing, even in their primes, a Barna in his prime in 1931 terms under 1931 conditions.  Or even 1949 conditions under 1949 terms for that matter.

What the hell, why not another fantasy?  Barna vs. Ma or Waldner with 1931 Parker Brother teardrop rackets?  Smaller and narrower but I'd still take Barna by, oh, 10 or 11 points.


Edited by berndt_mann - 07/30/2017 at 8:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 8:17pm
FWIW, I started playing table tennis with a hardbat on concrete tables in school. No kidding. Little did I understand the reason I kept receiving long on those serves. Didn't even know it was called "spin." Didn't know about inverted rubbers. Didn't know about harbats. Didn't know shit. Only thing I knew was that it was fun, even if I were getting creamed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Lol give Ma long the worst fake hurricane rubber that you can find on a simple stigma wood. He's gonna destroy barna


Dear Mr. Gold,

You'll have to find your own time machine, in which case you can imagine any outcome, however unlikely in 1931 terms, that your heart and mind desires.

In my hypothetical fantasy and time machine invented by one or some of the more creative members of this particular forum, neither "the worst fake hurricane rubber that (I) can find" or "a simple stigma wood" (sic) were known to exist.

Thus the unfortunate Ma and the hapless Waldner, though again in my fantasy the same age as the 20 year old Barna, would have to incorporate the blades and rubbers I (remember, this is after all my fantasy) described in it for them.  No hurricane or hurricane fake inverted rubbers permitted.  Also no modern fancy-ass illegal serves, half-assed 11-point games. or expedite shortened 10-yard dashes because somebody gets too tired.  

Nobody including myself has claimed that Ma, Waldner, or for that manner any other spongeslinger of note after 1955 (Ogimura and Tanaka) to 2017 (Ma, Zhang, Fan, Xu) could not take out Barna with either their prehistoric sponge, Zhuang Zedong style short pipped sponge, Klampar, Jonyer and Waldner speed glued inverted sponge, or today's boosted inverted sponge.

Hard rubber however, lacking sponge or additives, is a different animal.  I very strongly suspect that any current sponge deity or one of the recent past such as Waldner would have enjoyed playing, even in their primes, a Barna in his prime in 1931 terms under 1931 conditions.  Or even 1949 conditions under 1949 terms for that matter.

What the hell, why not another fantasy?  Barna vs. Ma or Waldner with 1931 Parker Brother teardrop rackets?  Smaller and narrower but I'd still take Barna by, oh, 10 or 11 points.

if ma long is taking his mind with him, might as well take his racket with him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

When we can produce a time machine and get Ma Long and Waldner in his prime to combat each other we might resolve the question. As for Barna, well.... he would get destroyed by both.

 My hunch is Ma Long would come on top. He is just too overpowering.

Nevertheless, Waldner matches are still interesting to watch. He had so many tricks up his sleeve that even today I don't see anyone with as many techniques as he had.

All we can do is speculate. But for sure Barna would get  destroyed. hahahaha

FdT



We have a lot of extremely clever people on this forum.  Thus it should be no problem for one or more of them to produce a time machine so we can settle this GOAT question once and for all.

Let's go back to, say 1931.  Barna is 20, and it just so happens he is playing against Ma Long, who also happens to be 20.  Barna is wielding his trusty Becker Barna personal bat covered with the finest short pips without sponge Europe is capable of producing.  Ma Long, in turn, is drawing down with a Double Happiness blade plastered with the finest Friendship short pips without sponge Chinese technology is capable of.  Needless to say, both Barna's and Ma's blades are made exclusively of wood.

Let's say that they are playing in Wembley Stadium in mid-winter.  The temperature inside the stadium, despite the heat generated by 15,000 spectators, is about 45 degrees Fahrenheit.  The balls are 38 mm.  The expedite rule has yet to come into existence.

Barna starts Ma off with a short heavy backspin serve which Ma, trying to Chiquita, nets.  The next point ends abruptly with a Barna off the bounce backhand from an attempted Ma hardbat loop crashing into Ma's armpit.  

Barna smiles pleasantly but looks bored.  And so it goes, and goes, and goes.  Ma somehow manages to put a couple of forehands past Barna following up his serve, which, this being 1931, does not give Barna any major problems, but if the point goes past 5 shots, Ma is toast.  Barna's deadly backhand, consistent forehand, and formidable defense are simply too much for Ma.

Games and match to Barna, 21-8, 21-7.

Next up is the 20 year old Waldner.  Waldner's serve.  Barna backhand chops it back easily.  Waldner tries a forehand topspin but not enough acceleration with a 1931 Stiga hardbat.  Net city.  And once again, so it goes, and goes, and goes.  

Games and match to Barna 21-6, 21-7.



ma long would send barna to the grave just because ma long without booster no rubbers because ma long is stronger faster.it seems that nobody ever could be better than the old players for berndt no matter if they win 9 tittles in a row
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Again

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 10:19pm
Ma Long should have had even more major tournament championships but he had to learn how to win big events. Eventually he did. On top of all his various gold medals, he has many silver and bronze. I think those are plusses, not minuses. I am not Chinese and am not in particular a Ma Long fan more than I like other great players. In fact I learned to play in Sweden. I still vote for Ma Long recognizing that Wang Hao was a big problem for him to solve and it took him a long time. Waldner was great but some of the accolades he gets verge onto mythological.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2017 at 10:39pm
(bbkon)  ma long would send barna to the grave just because ma long without booster no rubbers because ma long is stronger faster.it seems that nobody ever could be better than the old players for berndt no matter if they win 9 tittles in a row Back to Top

(B. Mann)  Nobody including myself has claimed that Ma, Waldner, or for that manner any other spongeslinger of note after 1955 (Ogimura and Tanaka) to 2017 (Ma, Zhang, Fan, Xu) could not take out Barna with either their prehistoric sponge, Zhuang Zedong style short pipped sponge, Klampar, Jonyer and Waldner speed glued inverted sponge, or today's boosted inverted sponge.

Ma Long, Waldner & Co. are indisputably better than any of the old masters using the equipment that Waldner used and Ma et al. are presently using, which the masters of yore never saw and did not have access to.  I have never claimed otherwise.

As for Barna, no need to send him to the grave as he has been dead since 1972.  And as for hard rubber rackets, well they still exist and a number of extremely good players use them in hard rubber events and also in events against sponge toters.

This situation however, though hypothetical, is still potentially possible.  Why not a match between Ma Long, who has run afoul of the Chinese sport authorities and deserves another chance perhaps with another medium to try to regain his former luster, and young 2017 American Hardbat Singles Champion Sharon Alguetti? 

Ferenc Sido, who stood about 6'4" tall and weighed around 220 pounds, a World Singles Champion in 1953, was possibly stronger than Ma Long and as a later all-round player in the 1950s surprisingly fast and agile.  Richard Bergmann, a four time World Singles Champion, was as sturdily built as any contemporary player (definitely sturdier looking with his shirt off than Ma Lin).  Laszlo Bellak, though short, was an excellent swimmer and diver and muscular.  He was a three-time World Singles Finalist.  Coleman Clark, an early National Champion of the 1930s was flat-bellied and trim in 1944 in a film clip made with partner Alan Palmer, an extremely graceful defensive player.  Clark was born in 1896.

Barna, born in 1911, was trim, lithe and cat quick in his prime, and even in his thirties could bring off a flying backhand smash and, in a demonstration before a group of juniors, a leaping forehand chop.

Due props to Ma and Waldner, but I have yet to see a flying backhand smash or a leaping forehand chop from either of them.








Edited by berndt_mann - 07/30/2017 at 10:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2017 at 12:12am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

(bbkon)  ma
long would send barna to the grave just because ma long without booster
no rubbers because ma long is stronger faster.it seems that nobody ever
could be better than the old players for berndt no matter if they win 9
tittles in a row


i m sure any modern player would get more spin and power with any hardbat than barna and sido because their oppobents werent that stronger like average kids are stronger than 80s kids
   
   



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(B. Mann)  Nobody including myself has claimed that Ma, Waldner, or for that manner
any other spongeslinger of note after 1955 (Ogimura and Tanaka) to 2017
(Ma, Zhang, Fan, Xu) could not take out Barna with either their
prehistoric sponge, Zhuang Zedong style short pipped sponge, Klampar,
Jonyer and Waldner speed glued inverted sponge, or today's boosted
inverted sponge.

Ma Long, Waldner & Co. are indisputably better than any of the old masters using the equipment that Waldner used and Ma et al. are presently using, which the masters of yore never saw and did not have access to.  I have never claimed otherwise.

As for Barna, no need to send him to the grave as he has been dead since 1972.  And as for hard rubber rackets, well they still exist and a number of extremely good players use them in hard rubber events and also in events against sponge toters.

This situation however, though hypothetical, is still potentially possible.  Why not a match between Ma Long, who has run afoul of the Chinese sport authorities and deserves another chance perhaps with another medium to try to regain his former luster, and young 2017 American Hardbat Singles Champion Sharon Alguetti? 

Ferenc Sido, who stood about 6'4" tall and weighed around 220 pounds, a World Singles Champion in 1953, was possibly stronger than Ma Long and as a later all-round player in the 1950s surprisingly fast and agile.  Richard Bergmann, a four time World Singles Champion, was as sturdily built as any contemporary player (definitely sturdier looking with his shirt off than Ma Lin).  Laszlo Bellak, though short, was an excellent swimmer and diver and muscular.  He was a three-time World Singles Finalist.  Coleman Clark, an early National Champion of the 1930s was flat-bellied and trim in 1944 in a film clip made with partner Alan Palmer, an extremely graceful defensive player.  Clark was born in 1896.

Barna, born in 1911, was trim, lithe and cat quick in his prime, and even in his thirties could bring off a flying backhand smash and, in a demonstration before a group of juniors, a leaping forehand chop.

Due props to Ma and Waldner, but I have yet to see a flying backhand smash or a leaping forehand chop from either of them.










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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2017 at 4:31pm
(bbkon)  i m sure any modern player would get more spin and power with any hardbat than barna and sido because their opponents werent that stronger like average kids are stronger than 80s kids
   
And I'm not sure that you understand precisely what you are writing.  Even assuming that "any modern player" from cadet to international is stronger in general than their 1930s to 1950s counterparts (an assumption that is difficult to prove and more difficult to verify), it does not and cannot follow from your premise that any contemporary competitive player is going to be likely to "get more spin and power with any hardbat" than five-time World Singles Champion Viktor Barna or one-time World Singles Champion Ferenc (Sledgehammer) Sido.  

Are you claiming that any modern player, male or female, playing with any hardbat, from a Meet Rack barroom crapbat to an 11-ply late 1930s MacCrossen is going to stroke a ball, as of 2017 a 40+ mm. ball, with more power and spin than these two World Singles Champions?  I hope that you're being sarcastic, as there is no way in Hell that you can be serious.

I don't know what other sports Sido excelled in, but Barna was a reserve on the Hungarian National football (soccer) team (possibly in his late teens) and, though known to anyone who knows anything about the history of table tennis, might have achieved more recognition as a member of that team had he not forsaken soccer for table tennis.  http://www.ttfi.org/news/show/523




Edited by berndt_mann - 07/31/2017 at 4:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2017 at 5:43pm
Given advances in sports science, the development of very refined training methods (including implementation nutrition and recovery time planning), the intense professionalization of sports in the last few decades, the full-time training (not just in table tennis), and many other factors, there can be no doubt that modern players are stronger and quicker than their counterparts in the 1930s or even the 1980s.  This is true across a very broad range of sports.  Running 100 meters in 10.3 seconds would get you an Olympic gold medal in 1932 (the world record that year), and it would get you about 6th place in the NCAA championships last year.  Usain Bolt ran it in a relatively slow 9.81 secs at Rio in 2016 (his current world record is 9.58 secs). 

The world record for 100 meters in swimming freestyle in Barna's day was 57.4 secs (Johnny Weismuller, who later played Tarzan in films).  It was 54.8 in 1954.  Right now it is 46.91 seconds (set in 2009).   The WOMAN's world record in that event right now is 51.71 (!!)

I picked those two Olympic events kind of at random.  But you see the same trend in every sport where there is some way to actually measure performance.  Weights lifted.  Times of running events or swimming events.  Sometimes it is hard to tease out effects of equipment (shoes are better, pools are different, etc. etc.).  But a big part of it is that the athletes are faster, stronger, etc.  Anybody who follows American football can see this.  In fact, the availability of more scientific methods of training is not available to all of us now if one is willing to check into what can be done with things like heart rate monitors, video cameras, etc.

In table tennis, the way people train has changed a lot.  Modern professional table tennis players (successful ones, anyway,  especially since the time of Wang Liqin) cross-train intensively.  Make no mistake, Marty Reisman never hit the weights, ran sprints, worked on his core strength, etc.  Most likely he just played table tennis. 

I don't know why I am posting this, but some things people write are so stupid I can't stop myself from responding.   I should just ignore it because there are times you can't convince other people, especially those with a trenchant for trolling.  Each time I swear I will ignore it.  But then, I start typing.... Why do I say trolling?  The OP was specifically asking for a comparison of Waldner and Ma Long.  The sport over that time has had some changes but not so many that we can't hazard a guess or make an argument, just like people will compare Lebron James and Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan (and never resolve anything).  There is exactly one and only one person here who gives a flying %^^& about players of the hardbat era in this kind of context.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2017 at 6:11pm
Jo is my favorite of all time. But ML is the GOAT per stats and data so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2017 at 6:16pm
(Baal)  Anticipating Berndt.  Barna, etc. etc.

Well you made me an offer I could not refuse.  And FYI, the title of this post is:  Is Waldner the greatest table tennis player ever?

I would think that this question (not an exclaimation) would allow for other conjectures as to who the greatest tt player ever was or is, unless you are convinced in your heart of hearts that Waldner, and not Ma Long or Barna or anyone else. is and deserves to be the Wotan of table tennis.

So don't go whinging about how that doggone B. Mann hijacked another table tennis post on this forum, which you do sometimes moderate when it pleases you and when you're not hard at work insulting me.







Edited by berndt_mann - 07/31/2017 at 6:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2017 at 6:19pm
Waldner is nowhere near Ichiro Ogimura and Zhuang Zedong.
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