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    Posted: 04/15/2012 at 2:12am
A long pips lesson from Sun Jian Fei. If anyone could provide a translation it would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance




Edited by jrscatman - 04/16/2012 at 12:31pm
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Looks like the website is working again. Anyone who speaks Mandarin could provide a translation - it would be much appreciated. 

BTW: you might want copy everything you type before posting - just in case the website has the problem - you wouldn't want to waste all the typing! 
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omg, this guy talks fast. Let me try....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2012 at 1:26pm

Typical Euro/Jpn LPs can generate more spin than typical Chinese LPs. Against high incoming spin, the former is more difficult to control.

When flipping underspin with LPs, adjust the blade face as needed and hit the ball in a straight line.

When "swiping" underspin with LPs, the blade moves right to left, contacting the side of the ball.

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Thanks racquetsforsale - ZApenholder....

Ok, now I just need this decoded....

So he using pips against underspin - but this would reverse the spin and wouldn't the other player get a topspin - that can be attacked?
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Heading: Long-Pip training lesson

 

Close to table skills

The biggest advantage for Long Pips is how it chops the ball. It has a bigger advantage compared with inverted rubbers, where  you would need to control the ball and add your own spin to successfully control and  return a spinning ball.  And with your pip out rubber, it help talks away the spin, even though it doesn’t take away all the spin but it has a huge advantage over inverted rubbers. So all we need to do is to focus the control on the angle and placements of the ball.

 

Regarding no spin balls, the Chinese rubbers cannot add spin to a no spin ball, unlike Japanese long pips, where you can make a return a no spin ball and make it under spin. The advantage for Chinese is when the ball comes to you very spinning, it will go back more spin too, like a heavy top spin comes to you, you can return and the ball will be heavy under spin. But with Japanese and European long pips, you would need to do more to control a heavy top spin in order to return it back successfully.

This is the biggest differences with Chinese long pips and Japanese and European ones.

 

Back hand Flip Return

As we look at inverted rubbers, if would need to first take out the spin before returning. But with long pips, you can just aim for your angle and placement and go for the contact on the ball. That is why we will see more down the line returns. So overall there is a bigger advantage for flip returns both forehand and backhand compared to inverted.

 

Dropping short (short game)

Again, inverted you will need to take out the spin, add your own spin, and placement. With long pip, we just need to control the ball and aim for our desired placement as the taking out of spin is done automatically. A lot of time the disadvantage here with long pips is that it is a no spin return.

 

Forehand slide

The main different compared to a forehand flip is with a slide you are going from right to left and using the slide motion to overcome the underspin ball. It provides the same to a flip but a more difficult for your opponent as your placement option is more.

 

I am happy to show you the different ways of using long pips. This Saturday, there is a China vs Canada match, and I am happy to participate, so I wish to show you some pip outs action as you can add some variation when using pip outs

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2012 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Thanks racquetsforsale - ZApenholder....

Ok, now I just need this decoded....

So he using pips against underspin - but this would reverse the spin and wouldn't the other player get a topspin - that can be attacked?
 
I have no clue at all :)
I just translated his word for word in a way...
When he was dropping the ball short, he did mention it is a no spin ball. However he didn't mention if it is the same with Jap and Euro pips, I assume he is using Chinese pips.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopchopslam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2012 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Thanks racquetsforsale - ZApenholder....

Ok, now I just need this decoded....

So he using pips against underspin - but this would reverse the spin and wouldn't the other player get a topspin - that can be attacked?


Yes, this is true, and is a weakness of long pips if your opponent understands them. I basically do one of two things against underspin -- hit a fast attacking shot, basically a punch block. Don't try to flip it, just punch it straight and the topspin will pull it down onto the table. (the more spin there is, the faster you can hit it) The other option is an over-the-table mini chop. Hopefully your opponent will get the spin confused at this point and give you a pop-up in response, but if they are experienced at playing vs LP, they can attack it, so it helps if you mini-chop it and place it well too.

What you don't want to do is just block it, that is very attackable.
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Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

 
I just translated his word for word in a way...
When he was dropping the ball short, he did mention it is a no spin ball. However he didn't mention if it is the same with Jap and Euro pips, I assume he is using Chinese pips.

Thanks again for amazing translation. Clap

If it is ok, I can ask the guy who made the video to post the translation on to the youtube video. Since you did all the hard work - it's your decision. 

He uses Palio CK531A OX.
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Originally posted by chopchopslam chopchopslam wrote:


Yes, this is true, and is a weakness of long pips if your opponent understands them. I basically do one of two things against underspin -- hit a fast attacking shot, basically a punch block. Don't try to flip it, just punch it straight and the topspin will pull it down onto the table. (the more spin there is, the faster you can hit it) The other option is an over-the-table mini chop. Hopefully your opponent will get the spin confused at this point and give you a pop-up in response, but if they are experienced at playing vs LP, they can attack it, so it helps if you mini-chop it and place it well too.

What you don't want to do is just block it, that is very attackable.

Thanks - I've been using LP for a while now quite successfully, but without really understanding what is going on...now I am going to start thinking and start missing more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2012 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

 
I just translated his word for word in a way...
When he was dropping the ball short, he did mention it is a no spin ball. However he didn't mention if it is the same with Jap and Euro pips, I assume he is using Chinese pips.

Thanks again for amazing translation. Clap

If it is ok, I can ask the guy who made the video to post the translation on to the youtube video. Since you did all the hard work - it's your decision. 

He uses Palio CK531A OX.
 
I have no problem with that. Maybe just ask one or two other people to double check my translation - I don't want to be giving out wrong info, if you know what I mean :)
BTW, who is this guy? what is this China vs Canada match he was talking about?
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did some googling... wow, how did you guys get this player to Canada....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2012 at 2:44pm

Success of LP offense close to the table relies on speed of execution (not necessarily also speed of shot, at least not at lower levels), placement, and confusing your opponent. The user has the advantage of disregarding the intensity of the incoming spin to an extent.

Hitting incoming underspin may result in returning with topsin, but if the return is executed fast and placed well, the opponent won't be able to attack it with full effort. He will also have to judge just how much topspin is coming back. If he overestimates, the ball goes into the net; if he underestimates, the ball goes long. The potential for indecision will force a safe shot or an error from him.
 
If your LPs can also generate decent spin, then your opponent will have more trouble, because you can add to, cancel, and reverse the incoming spin. Now, the opponent not only has to figure out the intensity but also the type of spin.
 
As an example, I played a guy who could "fake loop" my underspin shots with his LPs on the BH. He hit that shot fast to my backhand, forcing me to block. At first I kept blocking into the net, because his "loop" actually had little to no spin --- he had cancelled my underspin. I made adjustments and he started to mix up no spin with moderate topspin. It took a lot of concentration just to keep track of his spins, and when he started moving the ball left and right, it was game over for me.
 
To beat a skilled LPs player who can also attack, you must be able to impose your spin on him, forcing him to return with the spin you want. You have to be patient but aggressive. That requires a lot of skill. And if the guy also twiddles with inverted on the other side, oh boy...
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Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

did some googling... wow, how did you guys get this player to Canada....
From what I know - there are others on this board who are much closer to the situation. MYTTC Club - hired him when he was playing in the Italien Divsion 1 or 2. He is the main coach at this club. He plays some exhibition matches and some local tournaments. 

He is in a weird position right now - There are very few people who can challenge him in North America. But his level has dropped from world class level. He considers himself a full time coach and part time player. 

He played this weekend against the kids from Shandong - again they weren't at his level - he was never in any trouble. A lot of fun to watch him play - sadly there is no one who can really push him. 
Additionally, most matches are exhibition type so there is really no pressure. 
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I see he is still quite young. I wonder if he is given the oppurtunity to train and compete internationally, how far he could go in the world stage....
They said he is the highest rated OX player in the world...
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Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

 
I have no problem with that. Maybe just ask one or two other people to double check my translation - I don't want to be giving out wrong info, if you know what I mean :)
BTW, who is this guy? what is this China vs Canada match he was talking about?
Great - I'll ask him. Expect to see your work on Youtube!

I believe he was on Chinese National Time on the 25 man squad. 

The Canadian team was preparing for the Olympic trials with a Club in Shandong, the Shandong club sent some players to Canada to help the Canadian Olympic squad train for the North American trials next week in the USA. Sun Jian Fei - played against Shandong players. I believe this may also have been his club - when he was in China.


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Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

I see he is still quite young. I wonder if he is given the oppurtunity to train and compete internationally, how far he could go in the world stage....
They said he is the highest rated OX player in the world...
I actually don't know his age. Just assumed he was past his prime. Last year he played in Baltimore, he had a very difficult time. Then locally played against Wang Zhen and James Qiao - they also gave him a difficult time. His fitness level has dropped from his playing days. Plus he's very busy with coaching full time.

Although, I believe he plays the Chinese league every year. I believe that was part of his agreement with his club. 

Hopefully Leatherback will give more details - his one his star students!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2012 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

I see he is still quite young. I wonder if he is given the oppurtunity to train and compete internationally, how far he could go in the world stage....
They said he is the highest rated OX player in the world...
I actually don't know his age. Just assumed he was past his prime. Last year he played in Baltimore, he had a very difficult time. Then locally played against Wang Zhen and James Qiao - they also gave him a difficult time. His fitness level has dropped from his playing days. Plus he's very busy with coaching full time.

Although, I believe he plays the Chinese league every year. I believe that was part of his agreement with his club. 

Hopefully Leatherback will give more details - his one his star students!
 
It says he is born in 1983.
I think it is difficult to train and keep up the standard if you are not in China (for Chinese players), that is properly why so many international Chinese players that don't represent China goes back to China to train for international tournaments.
 
Hope he is alteast making a living with his skills and experience, properly can make more in Canada than in China?
 
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Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Success of LP offense close to the table relies on speed of execution (not necessarily also speed of shot, at least not at lower levels), placement, and confusing your opponent. The user has the advantage of disregarding the intensity of the incoming spin to an extent.

Hitting incoming underspin may result in returning with topsin, but if the return is executed fast and placed well, the opponent won't be able to attack it with full effort. He will also have to judge just how much topspin is coming back. If he overestimates, the ball goes into the net; if he underestimates, the ball goes long. The potential for indecision will force a safe shot or an error from him.
 
If your LPs can also generate decent spin, then your opponent will have more trouble, because you can add to, cancel, and reverse the incoming spin. Now, the opponent not only has to figure out the intensity but also the type of spin.
 
As an example, I played a guy who could "fake loop" my underspin shots with his LPs on the BH. He hit that shot fast to my backhand, forcing me to block. At first I kept blocking into the net, because his "loop" actually had little to no spin --- he had cancelled my underspin. I made adjustments and he started to mix up no spin with moderate topspin. It took a lot of concentration just to keep track of his spins, and when he started moving the ball left and right, it was game over for me.
 
To beat a skilled LPs player who can also attack, you must be able to impose your spin on him, forcing him to return with the spin you want. You have to be patient but aggressive. That requires a lot of skill. And if the guy also twiddles with inverted on the other side, oh boy...
Thanks very informative. I've been so busy just trying to gain enough skill to control the pips - haven't really thought about the strategy. I started off as 2 winged looper and then later added LP for chopping - now I am trying to mix it all together - long ways to go I'm afraid. But learned a lot in this thread. 
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Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:


It says he is born in 1983.
I think it is difficult to train and keep up the standard if you are not in China (for Chinese players), that is properly why so many international Chinese players that don't represent China goes back to China to train for international tournaments.
 
Hope he is alteast making a living with his skills and experience, properly can make more in Canada than in China?
 
There are 3 major clubs here and they all have amazing high level coaches from China. 
Sun Jian Fei - I am told is booked solid.  So I am pretty sure he's making a good living. 

Hopefully, he will put out more videos. 


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jrscatman, which city are you in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2012 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

jrscatman, which city are you in?
Does batman reveal the location of the batcave?
Does superman reveal the location of the batcave?
I think not!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2012 at 2:41am
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

So he using pips against underspin - but this would reverse the spin and wouldn't the other player get a topspin
Yes.

Quote
 - that can be attacked?
Yes, if you don't hit the ball back aggressively.   You can bounce the ball back faster than you would normally think and the ball will drop deep just like you hit a top spin loop.  Often my opponents will still miss hit one of my weaker returns because the ball has top spin but they don't see it so they don't close their paddle enough and the ball goes long.   This happens all the time.

When playing choppers and heavy pushers I have no fear when returning with LP.  It is much easier and sure than 'lifting' chopped balls with inverted.   Getting the ball back isn't a problem,  getting the back so the looper can't loop again or misses is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2012 at 7:13am
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

jrscatman, which city are you in?
Does batman reveal the location of the batcave?
Does superman reveal the location of the batcave?
I think not!
 
I knew you are a super hero!! Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leatherback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2012 at 9:05am
oh my dear friend professor Sun....

i wish i was back in Canada because i would probably be in that video! hahahah!

Sun is 29, and plays purely for the enjoyment of himself and others, and could care less if he wins or not.

in my opinion, this mental attitutde is what makes him such a grand person.

me and him were thinking of a doubles opportunity in the next summer olympics in rio (2016) but that remains to be seen or discussed

he has a unique play style that has been completely unseen at the world stage before and it defies all forum logic that people rely on long pips as a crutch...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2012 at 9:30am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

jrscatman, which city are you in?
Does batman reveal the location of the batcave?
Does superman reveal the location of the batcave?
I think not!
 
I knew you are a super hero!! Thumbs Up

LOL...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2012 at 9:36am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

So he using pips against underspin - but this would reverse the spin and wouldn't the other player get a topspin
Yes.

Quote
 - that can be attacked?
Yes, if you don't hit the ball back aggressively.   You can bounce the ball back faster than you would normally think and the ball will drop deep just like you hit a top spin loop.  Often my opponents will still miss hit one of my weaker returns because the ball has top spin but they don't see it so they don't close their paddle enough and the ball goes long.   This happens all the time.

When playing choppers and heavy pushers I have no fear when returning with LP.  It is much easier and sure than 'lifting' chopped balls with inverted.   Getting the ball back isn't a problem,  getting the back so the looper can't loop again or misses is.

I've seen Sun do that - but had no understanding of what was going on. He does the flick return with the pips and steps around loops the next ball for winner. I guess the opponents aren't ready for the pips return on the forehand and don't attack - which sets up an easy put away for him. 
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2012 at 9:37am
Originally posted by Leatherback Leatherback wrote:

oh my dear friend professor Sun....

i wish i was back in Canada because i would probably be in that video! hahahah!

Sun is 29, and plays purely for the enjoyment of himself and others, and could care less if he wins or not.

in my opinion, this mental attitutde is what makes him such a grand person.

me and him were thinking of a doubles opportunity in the next summer olympics in rio (2016) but that remains to be seen or discussed

he has a unique play style that has been completely unseen at the world stage before and it defies all forum logic that people rely on long pips as a crutch...

Sun and you in Rio ---- that makes sense...will you have time for TT?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leatherback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2012 at 9:41am
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by Leatherback Leatherback wrote:

oh my dear friend professor Sun....

i wish i was back in Canada because i would probably be in that video! hahahah!

Sun is 29, and plays purely for the enjoyment of himself and others, and could care less if he wins or not.

in my opinion, this mental attitutde is what makes him such a grand person.

me and him were thinking of a doubles opportunity in the next summer olympics in rio (2016) but that remains to be seen or discussed

he has a unique play style that has been completely unseen at the world stage before and it defies all forum logic that people rely on long pips as a crutch...

Sun and you in Rio ---- that makes sense...will you have time for TT?


everyday is the plan.....difficult with work and such, but i will make it happen! gotta see what the competition is like first....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2012 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Leatherback Leatherback wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

 

Sun and you in Rio ---- that makes sense...will you have time for TT?


everyday is the plan.....difficult with work and such, but i will make it happen! gotta see what the competition is like first....
I meant in Rio - with the beaches and the women ....will you stay indoors to play TT. As I recall you're also a volleyball player ....you guys will never leave the beach!
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