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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 2:35pm
And that is right, he was “picked” ahead of XX and FZD!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

And that is right, he was “picked” ahead of XX and FZD!

He was the 2013 WTTC holder.  That was the CNT way.  And he won the silver so no matter how you see it, he was dominant enough to do so.  He was also a 2015 WTTC bronze medalist, losing to Fang Bo, so he wasn't losing to anyone other than teammates.  Not sure why you still think he was so bad.
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Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

No doubt he was a great player ant it was super exciting to watch him play, then! He was just not a dorminant player. Nevertheless, he won the big ones in a different way as LGJ won them in his own way as well.


I understand your point but if you define "dominant" as beating everyone else easily and not losing a couple of matches a year, perhaps only Ma Long is qualified in the recent history of table tennis.
No Wang Liqin, no Wang Hao, no Ma Lin, no Waldner, no Liu Guoliang, no Kong Linghui. I don't think any of them was that "dominant" for a long period of time. Perhaps they were unbeatable at some point in their career but that didn't last long, maybe 1 year at most. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

No doubt he was a great player ant it was super exciting to watch him play, then! He was just not a dorminant player. Nevertheless, he won the big ones in a different way as LGJ won them in his own way as well.


I understand your point but if you define "dominant" as beating everyone else easily and not losing a couple of matches a year, perhaps only Ma Long is qualified in the recent history of table tennis.
No Wang Liqin, no Wang Hao, no Ma Lin, no Waldner, no Liu Guoliang, no Kong Linghui. I don't think any of them was that "dominant" for a long period of time. Perhaps they were unbeatable at some point in their career but that didn't last long, maybe 1 year at most. 


I agree with this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 3:06pm
I respectfully disagree as JO had significant period time of dorminance and actually FZD has been dorminant for quite some time against anyone except ML. You don’t have to have 100 percent wining records to be dorminant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 3:13pm
Some one is walking the same path as jackwong23 LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Some one is walking the same path as jackwong23 LOL.


Only with 50% more spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

I respectfully disagree as JO had significant period time of dorminance and actually FZD has been dorminant for quite some time against anyone except ML. You don’t have to have 100 percent wining records to be dorminant.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.  When was this dominant time of Waldner? When he was losing to Atanda Musa and John Onifade at the World Cup? When he lost to Ma Lin on 1999 or Johnny Huang in 1996? When Gatien was winning the world title in 1993?  He isn't listed as having the same continental success as say Timo Boll and had only one World Cup.  Zhang Jike has 2.  He has 2 WTTC years apart, Zhang Jike has 2 consecutive. 


By any standard of dominant other than Ma Long, Zhang Jike was dominant.  His dominant years were 2011 to 2013.  That he wasn't easily considered the best player in the world is Ma Longs fault not Zhang Jike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Some one is walking the same path as jackwong23 LOL.


Only with 50% more spin.
True that!  The 50% more spin account for being a grand slam winner and being #7 in the world Smile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 6:25pm
During 2011and 13, ZJK was ranked no. 1 for only a few months. Despite his big titles, that shows he was not dorminant at the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2018 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

During 2011and 13, ZJK was ranked no. 1 for only a few months. Despite his big titles, that shows he was not dorminant at the time.
==========================

Zhang Jike ranking history:
Ranked as #1 for 7 months. (In 2012).
https://tabletennis.guide/alldata.php?name=jike-zhang-110553
=====

Ma Long ranking history:
Ranked as #1 too many time, I did not count them.
Beginning in January 2018, the new ITTF ranking system knocked out
Ma Long as #1.  (We all know Ma Long is still real #1 in 2018.)
https://tabletennis.guide/alldata.php?name=long-ma-105649



Edited by skip3119 - 06/06/2018 at 7:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 2:51am
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

During 2011and 13, ZJK was ranked no. 1 for only a few months. Despite his big titles, that shows he was not dorminant at the time.


Because Ma Long was the only player in the world who could beat him? This is getting ridiculous. He lost a lot of matches that didn't matter as did Waldner and other great players. But he was almost never ranked below anyone but his teammates. If you are a top player who loses to the Same top players over and over, you are a dominant player who lost to more dominant players. Even If you are only ranked #5. Because it means that If 1-4 did not exist, you would have been a dominant #1.

Edited by NextLevel - 06/07/2018 at 2:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 8:15am
I think this is also relevant. This was after the loss to Harimoto.

interview

Edited by NextLevel - 06/07/2018 at 8:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 9:23am
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

During 2011and 13, ZJK was ranked no. 1 for only a few months. Despite his big titles, that shows he was not dorminant at the time.


No no no. You can't say something like that. It doesn't make any sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 9:27am
On relevant note, looks like ZJK is back to be Mr. "11:9" when he beat Lin. I was wrong in the prediction and am not gonna predict how he's gonna do vs. stronger opposition, though very interested to see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 10:14am
I am going for a long shot (at this point of ZJK's comeback) that he will win the next two matches
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 10:18am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I am going for a long shot (at this point of ZJK's comeback) that he will win the next two matches
then he will lose to Yoshimura K.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 1:00pm
A couple of points:

-There is clearly a definition problem in what is considered to be a "dominant" player.  If you are expected to win every match and you do vast majority of the time, you are dominant player.  Naturally, you can have more than one dominant player at any given time.  For example, between 2011 and now, we really had two dominant players: Ma Long and Zhang Jike, with FZD seemingly joining the club as well. I am not going to get into this a whole lot beyond that, since the argument is ridiculous on its face when we are talking about a guy who is an Olympic champion and a two time world champion.  That does not happen when an also-ran athlete eat more Wheaties before a big tournament.  You can win one major tournament if everything aligns just right (Schalger and RSM, for example), but not two world championships.

-While speculating about ZJK's comeback is very entertaining, we havn't the foggiest idea why he is doing it and how it is going to go.  It might all end quickly, or he might climb into top ten again.  I remember I was talking to Stellan after the 2008 Olympics and he told me about a conversation he had with Jorgen Persson about a year before.  Jorgen who was retired and coaching at the time called him and said that he is beginning to train again because he want to play in the Beijing Olympics and he thinks he can do well.  Apparently, everyone told Jorgen that he was delusional and off his meds.  Persson told everyone to go take a long walk on a short pier and kept practicing.  Then he came in fourth in Beijing, losing to Wang Hao in the semi-finals and Wang Liqin in the bronze medal match.  That ain't bad for a 42 year old guy coming out of retirement. 

I do not think any one of us here, possibly excepting Danny Seemiller, were ever in any danger of coming in among the top 4 in the Olympics in any sport.  Everyone was making fun of Jorgen, but he saw something that made him think he can do it, and he was right.  It is no tall hubris.  These guys understand competition in the ways most of us simply don't.

Final thought on Zhang Jike's game.  When in his prime, aside from the Chiquita loop and other obvious things, he probably had the best short game in the world overall.  Very competitive serve and an almost unrivalled service return.  That is what made the rest of his game so effective.  All the crazy counterloops are beautiful to look at, but they mean nothing without an effective short game.  There were a few other things, but this one is a biggie.  Right name, his table game is not up to snuff to his old standards, but it seems to be cleaning up as he is getting more matches under his belt.

Give him a couple more tournaments and see how his short game settles down.  That will define how well his comeback progresses.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

A couple of points:

-There is clearly a definition problem in what is considered to be a "dominant" player.  If you are expected to win every match and you do vast majority of the time, you are dominant player.  Naturally, you can have more than one dominant player at any given time.  For example, between 2011 and now, we really had two dominant players: Ma Long and Zhang Jike, with FZD seemingly joining the club as well. I am not going to get into this a whole lot beyond that, since the argument is ridiculous on its face when we are talking about a guy who is an Olympic champion and a two time world champion.  That does not happen when an also-ran athlete eat more Wheaties before a big tournament.  You can win one major tournament if everything aligns just right (Schalger and RSM, for example), but not two world championships.

-While speculating about ZJK's comeback is very entertaining, we havn't the foggiest idea why he is doing it and how it is going to go.  It might all end quickly, or he might climb into top ten again.  I remember I was talking to Stellan after the 2008 Olympics and he told me about a conversation he had with Jorgen Persson about a year before.  Jorgen who was retired and coaching at the time called him and said that he is beginning to train again because he want to play in the Beijing Olympics and he thinks he can do well.  Apparently, everyone told Jorgen that he was delusional and off his meds.  Persson told everyone to go take a long walk on a short pier and kept practicing.  Then he came in fourth in Beijing, losing to Wang Hao in the semi-finals and Wang Liqin in the bronze medal match.  That ain't bad for a 42 year old guy coming out of retirement. 

I do not think any one of us here, possibly excepting Danny Seemiller, were ever in any danger of coming in among the top 4 in the Olympics in any sport.  Everyone was making fun of Jorgen, but he saw something that made him think he can do it, and he was right.  It is no tall hubris.  These guys understand competition in the ways most of us simply don't.

Final thought on Zhang Jike's game.  When in his prime, aside from the Chiquita loop and other obvious things, he probably had the best short game in the world overall.  Very competitive serve and an almost unrivalled service return.  That is what made the rest of his game so effective.  All the crazy counterloops are beautiful to look at, but they mean nothing without an effective short game.  There were a few other things, but this one is a biggie.  Right name, his table game is not up to snuff to his old standards, but it seems to be cleaning up as he is getting more matches under his belt.

Give him a couple more tournaments and see how his short game settles down.  That will define how well his comeback progresses.

ILya



chinese coaches will never take a older player on the main team only in countries where you cant ger enough talents
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

A couple of points:

-There is clearly a definition problem in what is considered to be a "dominant" player.  If you are expected to win every match and you do vast majority of the time, you are dominant player.  Naturally, you can have more than one dominant player at any given time.  For example, between 2011 and now, we really had two dominant players: Ma Long and Zhang Jike, with FZD seemingly joining the club as well. I am not going to get into this a whole lot beyond that, since the argument is ridiculous on its face when we are talking about a guy who is an Olympic champion and a two time world champion.  That does not happen when an also-ran athlete eat more Wheaties before a big tournament.  You can win one major tournament if everything aligns just right (Schalger and RSM, for example), but not two world championships.

-While speculating about ZJK's comeback is very entertaining, we havn't the foggiest idea why he is doing it and how it is going to go.  It might all end quickly, or he might climb into top ten again.  I remember I was talking to Stellan after the 2008 Olympics and he told me about a conversation he had with Jorgen Persson about a year before.  Jorgen who was retired and coaching at the time called him and said that he is beginning to train again because he want to play in the Beijing Olympics and he thinks he can do well.  Apparently, everyone told Jorgen that he was delusional and off his meds.  Persson told everyone to go take a long walk on a short pier and kept practicing.  Then he came in fourth in Beijing, losing to Wang Hao in the semi-finals and Wang Liqin in the bronze medal match.  That ain't bad for a 42 year old guy coming out of retirement. 

I do not think any one of us here, possibly excepting Danny Seemiller, were ever in any danger of coming in among the top 4 in the Olympics in any sport.  Everyone was making fun of Jorgen, but he saw something that made him think he can do it, and he was right.  It is no tall hubris.  These guys understand competition in the ways most of us simply don't.

Final thought on Zhang Jike's game.  When in his prime, aside from the Chiquita loop and other obvious things, he probably had the best short game in the world overall.  Very competitive serve and an almost unrivalled service return.  That is what made the rest of his game so effective.  All the crazy counterloops are beautiful to look at, but they mean nothing without an effective short game.  There were a few other things, but this one is a biggie.  Right name, his table game is not up to snuff to his old standards, but it seems to be cleaning up as he is getting more matches under his belt.

Give him a couple more tournaments and see how his short game settles down.  That will define how well his comeback progresses.

ILya



chinese coaches will never take a older player on the main team only in countries where you cant ger enough talents


Were the older players the best players? Were they Ma Long and Zhang Jike?

The fact that Liu Guozheng is coaching Zhang Jike says a lot that people seem to be blind to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I am going for a long shot (at this point of ZJK's comeback) that he will win the next two matches
then he will lose to Yoshimura K.


Wait. You think that someone can best Liang Jingkun and lose to Yoshimura K? Do we live in the twilight zone? Or you are just making a joke without looking at the bracket.

Edited by NextLevel - 06/07/2018 at 6:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

A couple of points:

-There is clearly a definition problem in what is considered to be a "dominant" player.  If you are expected to win every match and you do vast majority of the time, you are dominant player.  Naturally, you can have more than one dominant player at any given time.  For example, between 2011 and now, we really had two dominant players: Ma Long and Zhang Jike, with FZD seemingly joining the club as well. I am not going to get into this a whole lot beyond that, since the argument is ridiculous on its face when we are talking about a guy who is an Olympic champion and a two time world champion.  That does not happen when an also-ran athlete eat more Wheaties before a big tournament.  You can win one major tournament if everything aligns just right (Schalger and RSM, for example), but not two world championships.

-While speculating about ZJK's comeback is very entertaining, we havn't the foggiest idea why he is doing it and how it is going to go.  It might all end quickly, or he might climb into top ten again.  I remember I was talking to Stellan after the 2008 Olympics and he told me about a conversation he had with Jorgen Persson about a year before.  Jorgen who was retired and coaching at the time called him and said that he is beginning to train again because he want to play in the Beijing Olympics and he thinks he can do well.  Apparently, everyone told Jorgen that he was delusional and off his meds.  Persson told everyone to go take a long walk on a short pier and kept practicing.  Then he came in fourth in Beijing, losing to Wang Hao in the semi-finals and Wang Liqin in the bronze medal match.  That ain't bad for a 42 year old guy coming out of retirement. 

I do not think any one of us here, possibly excepting Danny Seemiller, were ever in any danger of coming in among the top 4 in the Olympics in any sport.  Everyone was making fun of Jorgen, but he saw something that made him think he can do it, and he was right.  It is no tall hubris.  These guys understand competition in the ways most of us simply don't.

Final thought on Zhang Jike's game.  When in his prime, aside from the Chiquita loop and other obvious things, he probably had the best short game in the world overall.  Very competitive serve and an almost unrivalled service return.  That is what made the rest of his game so effective.  All the crazy counterloops are beautiful to look at, but they mean nothing without an effective short game.  There were a few other things, but this one is a biggie.  Right name, his table game is not up to snuff to his old standards, but it seems to be cleaning up as he is getting more matches under his belt.

Give him a couple more tournaments and see how his short game settles down.  That will define how well his comeback progresses.

ILya


Finally an unbiased technical look at the game. I believe everyone is underestimating ZJK here, he doesn't seem to be injured now and once he gets his control over the short game, he would be a top 10 player easily...what made ZJK so dangerous in his prime wasn't necessarily his rallying skills but his immense control and ability to completely shut down his opponent's game by not giving any good opportunities to initiate any attacks, making his opponents feel frustrated and helpless. The only rival he has in this department is Ma Long who's shown the ability to shutdown a player like Fan Zhendong consistently!

Table tennis is so much more than BH and FH topspin guys....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2018 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I am going for a long shot (at this point of ZJK's comeback) that he will win the next two matches
then he will lose to Yoshimura K.


Wait. You think that someone can best Liang Jingkun and lose to Yoshimura K? Do we live in the twilight zone? Or you are just making a joke without looking at the bracket.

I said long shot, obviously he might not win the 2nd match , nothing is based on the recent past, and this is for Yoshimura as well.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 12:54am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I am going for a long shot (at this point of ZJK's comeback) that he will win the next two matches
then he will lose to Yoshimura K.


Wait. You think that someone can best Liang Jingkun and lose to Yoshimura K? Do we live in the twilight zone? Or you are just making a joke without looking at the bracket.

I said long shot, obviously he might not win the 2nd match , nothing is based on the recent past, and this is for Yoshimura as well.  

Seems you knew a lot of things I didn't.  WCT beating LJK and Koki Niwa getting killed by Kazuhiro.... only the second one seemed to last....


Edited by NextLevel - 06/08/2018 at 1:22am
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BH: Fastarc G-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
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tom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 11:32am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I am going for a long shot (at this point of ZJK's comeback) that he will win the next two matches
then he will lose to Yoshimura K.


Wait. You think that someone can best Liang Jingkun and lose to Yoshimura K? Do we live in the twilight zone? Or you are just making a joke without looking at the bracket.

I said long shot, obviously he might not win the 2nd match , nothing is based on the recent past, and this is for Yoshimura as well.  

Seems you knew a lot of things I didn't.  WCT beating LJK and Koki Niwa getting killed by Kazuhiro.... only the second one seemed to last....

the Yoshimura K. prediction is dead, but the first part is still possible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

I respectfully disagree as JO had significant period time of dorminance and actually FZD has been dorminant for quite some time against anyone except ML. You don’t have to have 100 percent wining records to be dorminant.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.  When was this dominant time of Waldner? When he was losing to Atanda Musa and John Onifade at the World Cup? When he lost to Ma Lin on 1999 or Johnny Huang in 1996? When Gatien was winning the world title in 1993?  He isn't listed as having the same continental success as say Timo Boll and had only one World Cup.  Zhang Jike has 2.  He has 2 WTTC years apart, Zhang Jike has 2 consecutive. 


By any standard of dominant other than Ma Long, Zhang Jike was dominant.  His dominant years were 2011 to 2013.  That he wasn't easily considered the best player in the world is Ma Longs fault not Zhang Jike.

Gatien winning in 1993 was a really interesting case of "styles make fights".  The two semifinals were Gatien against Primorac and Waldner against Saive.  At the time, JM Saive was just about the only player with a winning record against Waldner.  I bet Gatien who really struggled with Waldner was pretty happy to see him in the other semi-final.  Saive was an absolutely looping machine with a spinny BH loop that never missed.  Waldner was notorious for having issues with people with strong backhands and, more importantly, with people who had good service return.  In those hey days, Waldner dominated everyone with his service game.  Except for Saive.  Saive's return game was wildy unimaginative and seemed to be custom tailored to piss of JO.  At the time Saive was playing with that weird super soft Joola Samba rubber (livened with half a liter of glue before the match) that had very little spin sensitivity on soft contact, but good mechanical spin if you dug into the sponge.  When JO gave him a short serve, Saive dropped it short or half-long and got ready to counterloop.  When JO gave him a long serve, Saive looped it.  During the rally, Saive made it a point to not step around, so Waldner did not have a wide open FH corner to exploit.

Still, it was a pretty competitive match, but Saive had the superior strategy.

Despite losing to Gatien in the final (Gatien was just too fast that year), Saive went one to be the best player in the world through 1994 and a good portion of 1995.  Gatien peaked at the right time, but was never able to repeat his 1993 exploits. 

ILya
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FH: T05H, black, 2.1
BH: T05R, red, 2.1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 10:20pm
zjk , ljk 2-2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 10:24pm
3-2 for zjk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2018 at 10:30pm
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