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PingPongPom View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Also as a professional player she is probably trying to peak for specific tournaments and maybe this wasn't one of them.

Exactly, she was there ahead of a busy international schedule because we asked her to be there to compete and she obliged. It’s also worth noting that international competitors aren’t used to playing with a seamless ball like the flash. The players who had pips or drove the ball more definitely seemed to play better at the event.
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Originally posted by PingPongPom PingPongPom wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Also as a professional player she is probably trying to peak for specific tournaments and maybe this wasn't one of them.

Exactly, she was there ahead of a busy international schedule because we asked her to be there to compete and she obliged. It’s also worth noting that international competitors aren’t used to playing with a seamless ball like the flash. The players who had pips or drove the ball more definitely seemed to play better at the event.

Why did Joola use that ball?  Why not a seamed ball?
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Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:


I really like people like Amy Wang.  Look at all the 13 year olds who drop out of the sport, and the 14 year olds, and the 16 year olds.  Amy kept going and going.  She is such a fine and impressive player.  She is a role model.


Also ironic to mention this whilst talking down on a player who is 26 years old and kept going and going, and has a college degree in Psychology but has stayed in the sport the entire time without foresaking her education. She juggled both at the same time and remained in competition at TTs highest levels. 


Edited by PingPongPom - 09/05/2022 at 4:13pm
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I root for Lily and Amy. They are both top notch. I believe the point Donn is making has merit. He is not putting Lily down just making an observation that her techniques haven't kept improving. 
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Originally posted by PingPongPom PingPongPom wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:


I really like people like Amy Wang.  Look at all the 13 year olds who drop out of the sport, and the 14 year olds, and the 16 year olds.  Amy kept going and going.  She is such a fine and impressive player.  She is a role model.


Also ironic to mention this whilst talking down on a player who is 26 years old and kept going and going, and has a college degree in Psychology but has stayed in the sport the entire time without foresaking her education. She juggled both at the same time and remained in competition at TTs highest levels. 
I hope she is remembered for that: people have been telling 18yo high level players "you need to choose between college and high level competitive table tennis", she answered "I do not!" as in "I want it all." and she did get it all. I remember when she said in an interview that one of her teachers from whom she was seeking counsel told her "You need to do what makes you feel alive." and oh boy if she did! No matter what, we'll never forget that 1/2 final at the world cup and Liu Guoliand applauding at her smash off the bounce v. Liu Shiwen, what a point! I saw it live and I thought she'd win. She gave us that moment and to me it places her in the pantheon of American TT forever.
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Geez, have we all forgotten already who won the first WTTC medal for USATT in 62 years? That wasn't Kanak Jha. Don't let a nasty old man try to tarnish an outstanding record with cheap personal attacks disguised as technical analysis.
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Originally posted by Twiddler Twiddler wrote:

I root for Lily and Amy. They are both top notch. I believe the point Donn is making has merit. He is not putting Lily down just making an observation that her techniques haven't kept improving. 

I mean if saying her opportunities are undeserved and that she hasn’t put in the effort and lays in low luxury isn’t putting her down I don’t know what to tell you lol
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I am broadly a fan of many players, harsh criticism and disparaging opinions of public figures is usually par for the course in the USA, though I can understand the view that considers such opinions toxic.  There are people who think jt was a travesty that Adriana Diaz made the top 10, I don't agree it is a travesty but it is about how the new system gives continental points extra weight.

Lily has had good results, but I understand aspects of where Donn and Twiddler are coming from, and I also understand how people can take issue with Donn's use of the phrase "undeserving".  I will defer to world class players like Twiddler to point out that Lily's game doesn't seem to have show major changes in the technical elements that one would expect (serve and receive), while accepting that someone with intimate knowledge of Lily might see it differently. All that said, a world class coach once told me one of the hardest things to do is to convince established successful players to take risks with what works in their game.  But it will be interesting to see whether Lily expands her serve and return repertoire anytime soon or takes the risk to learn how to play fuller strokes in doubles (her WTTC medal notwithstanding, her lack of such strokes clearly put more pressure on Lin Gaoyuan).
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No player deserves to qualify for national representation to international competitions based upon the ITTF ranking system.  No player.  The Japanese don't qualify using the ITTF ranking system.  The Chinese don't qualify using the ITTF ranking system.
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

There are people who think jt was a travesty that Adriana Diaz made the top 10, I don't agree it is a travesty but it is about how the new system gives continental points extra weight.

The "new" (current) system actually doesn't give continental events much weight at all, that was a transitional period. And it seems the future world ranking will be decisive for Olympic singles qualifying (regardless of national selection criteria), so the next couple of years should be interesting in that respect.
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Lily has had good results, but I understand aspects of where Donn and Twiddler are coming from, and I also understand how people can take issue with Donn's use of the phrase "undeserving". 

There is an element of Donn constantly acting like an expert and insider when he is neither that will rub people who are privy to inside information the wrong way. 
 

In this case, taking exception to him making demeaning and baseless assumptions about her training and work ethic based on his own interpretation of her match results and how her game has or hasn't progressed. Any good coach should know that results-based analysis without proper context and sufficient background information is useless. He doesn't even seem to know the basics of her training situation given that in June he stated "Lily is not training hard with players at or above her level" - a laughable suggestion given her regular training with Kou Lei, Zhou Xin, and others. So why make comments like this?

But this sounds far more personal. Funny to see how we've come from this post to bashing her for staying in the "American-level table tennis environment". Maybe he realized that she wasn't taking heed of his "periodic observations" and "lengthy analysis"?

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Lily will be playing Bruna in the QF.

As someone who has helped Lily with her game since she was 14 and a big fan, this match makes me nervous.  Bruna is a contender for the title, a player that is capable of high level play.  Yes, Lily is the better player, however Bruna is a great competitor.  If Lily is coached properly and is strong emotionally, Lily will win.  Other variables that arise may make this the match of the tournament on the Women's side.

Fingers crossed.


Can you elaborate on how you've helped her with her game since she was 14?
Oh, only in minor ways.  Back then, she used to carry my first book around with her for some time as she worked on developing her mature game.  I developed a lengthy analysis of her game that she found helpful on foundational matters.  I've provided periodically some observations throughout the years on many of her matches which she has expressed appreciation.  My contribution to her impressive development is unquestionably very thin, as she has become what she has through the finest qualities of a high achieving person.  To develop how she has coming out of the American-level table tennis environment is an accomplishment of individual persistence and dedication worthy of the highest respect.
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Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

There are people who think jt was a travesty that Adriana Diaz made the top 10, I don't agree it is a travesty but it is about how the new system gives continental points extra weight.

The "new" (current) system actually doesn't give continental events much weight at all, that was a transitional period. And it seems the future world ranking will be decisive for Olympic singles qualifying (regardless of national selection criteria), so the next couple of years should be interesting in that respect.

It's true that the WR results can only include the best of a player's Continental results (champs/games/cup), but Continental points are 25% more than a WTT Contender at the Winner/F/SF positions so I guess it depends on your definition of much weight at all.  Aside from Asia (men and women) and Europe (men), the draw for a WTT Contender event is considerably stronger than a Continental event.  But the ITTF has to balance between globalizing the sport and fairness.  Any imbalances created by the point scheme is going to be subjected to criticism.
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Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

There are people who think jt was a travesty that Adriana Diaz made the top 10, I don't agree it is a travesty but it is about how the new system gives continental points extra weight.

The "new" (current) system actually doesn't give continental events much weight at all, that was a transitional period. And it seems the future world ranking will be decisive for Olympic singles qualifying (regardless of national selection criteria), so the next couple of years should be interesting in that respect.

It's true that the WR results can only include the best of a player's Continental results (champs/games/cup), but Continental points are 25% more than a WTT Contender at the Winner/F/SF positions so I guess it depends on your definition of much weight at all.  Aside from Asia (men and women) and Europe (men), the draw for a WTT Contender event is considerably stronger than a Continental event.  But the ITTF has to balance between globalizing the sport and fairness.  Any imbalances created by the point scheme is going to be subjected to criticism.


Pros are clever.

They will look at the schedule and look at who is going to what and then either want to go and challenge China head on, or dodge  the strong players for another tournament that has the same points/money up for grabs.

There way too many tournaments now and cherry picking tournaments is a smart move.
It has always been a maths game and still is.

Just look at the juniors too, Korean, Taiwanese are dodging the Chinese very obviously.

I don't agree with having the same tournament in 2 continents in the same time (some times on the same dates), and of the same point/monies.
If there were to have 2 tournaments, at least the value of the tournament must be different, this is to prevent cherry picking. But WTT might want more pros going to places they haven't been before
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Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

There are people who think jt was a travesty that Adriana Diaz made the top 10, I don't agree it is a travesty but it is about how the new system gives continental points extra weight.

The "new" (current) system actually doesn't give continental events much weight at all, that was a transitional period. And it seems the future world ranking will be decisive for Olympic singles qualifying (regardless of national selection criteria), so the next couple of years should be interesting in that respect.


Interesting.  So you would argue Darko Jorgic, Qiu Dang, Sofia Polcanova and Adriana Diaz are not significantly benefiting from the system and are all top 10 players?
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

There are people who think jt was a travesty that Adriana Diaz made the top 10, I don't agree it is a travesty but it is about how the new system gives continental points extra weight.

The "new" (current) system actually doesn't give continental events much weight at all, that was a transitional period. And it seems the future world ranking will be decisive for Olympic singles qualifying (regardless of national selection criteria), so the next couple of years should be interesting in that respect.


Interesting.  So you would argue Darko Jorgic, Qiu Dang, Sofia Polcanova and Adriana Diaz are not significantly benefiting from the system and are all top 10 players?


They do benefit.
Just like Aruna.

End of the day, there is plenty of points up for grabs, and you still need to grab them.
Asians are late to this game, so they busy playing catch up.

What is nice on the ITTF website (not WTT) ranking list is, you can actually see how the players in the top 10 gets they points

And having a 100~150 points here or there, does make a huge different.
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For Lily to push to the next level- Top 10-- she needs to develop her FH and move out of the BH favored position. Also her service game is way too simple. 
Truth is -one can never stop exploring how to improve.
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

There are people who think jt was a travesty that Adriana Diaz made the top 10, I don't agree it is a travesty but it is about how the new system gives continental points extra weight.

The "new" (current) system actually doesn't give continental events much weight at all, that was a transitional period. And it seems the future world ranking will be decisive for Olympic singles qualifying (regardless of national selection criteria), so the next couple of years should be interesting in that respect.


Interesting.  So you would argue Darko Jorgic, Qiu Dang, Sofia Polcanova and Adriana Diaz are not significantly benefiting from the system and are all top 10 players?

I'm not going to defend the world ranking system, past or present. What I tried to point out is that the current system actually reduces significantly the role that continental competitions can play, with the limitation to just one result from the past 12 months. 500 points for the winner of the European championship (valid for one year) doesn't seem excessive to me compared to the points for other competitions, but others will of course say it should be worth zero since no Chinese were present.


Edited by amateur - 09/06/2022 at 6:48am
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Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

There are people who think jt was a travesty that Adriana Diaz made the top 10, I don't agree it is a travesty but it is about how the new system gives continental points extra weight.

The "new" (current) system actually doesn't give continental events much weight at all, that was a transitional period. And it seems the future world ranking will be decisive for Olympic singles qualifying (regardless of national selection criteria), so the next couple of years should be interesting in that respect.


Interesting.  So you would argue Darko Jorgic, Qiu Dang, Sofia Polcanova and Adriana Diaz are not significantly benefiting from the system and are all top 10 players?

I'm not going to defend the world ranking system, past or present. What I tried to point out is that the current system actually reduces significantly the role that continental competitions can play, with the limitation to just one result from the past 12 months. 500 points for the winner of the European championship (valid for one year) doesn't seem excessive to me compared to the points for other competitions, but others will of course say it should be worth zero since no Chinese were present.

I think you can read the actual arguments from other people on this thread that the continental events can get you as many points as a placement in a WTT event that is beyond most players.  And one such result can have an outsize effect on your ranking.  Nothing to do with whether Chinese are present as you make out.  Yes only one such result *per player* is permitted by the new rules but the weighting is still outstandingly powerful and can help multiple players depending on the number of events and results.
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Originally posted by Twiddler Twiddler wrote:

For Lily to push to the next level- Top 10-- she needs to develop her FH and move out of the BH favored position. Also her service game is way too simple. 
Truth is -one can never stop exploring how to improve.


She is comfortably the best female player in the USA - until her results significantly suffer, it will be hard to force her out of her comfort zone against most opponents.
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

There are people who think jt was a travesty that Adriana Diaz made the top 10, I don't agree it is a travesty but it is about how the new system gives continental points extra weight.

The "new" (current) system actually doesn't give continental events much weight at all, that was a transitional period. And it seems the future world ranking will be decisive for Olympic singles qualifying (regardless of national selection criteria), so the next couple of years should be interesting in that respect.


Interesting.  So you would argue Darko Jorgic, Qiu Dang, Sofia Polcanova and Adriana Diaz are not significantly benefiting from the system and are all top 10 players?

I'm not going to defend the world ranking system, past or present. What I tried to point out is that the current system actually reduces significantly the role that continental competitions can play, with the limitation to just one result from the past 12 months. 500 points for the winner of the European championship (valid for one year) doesn't seem excessive to me compared to the points for other competitions, but others will of course say it should be worth zero since no Chinese were present.

I think you can read the actual arguments from other people on this thread that the continental events can get you as many points as a placement in a WTT event that is beyond most players.  And one such result can have an outsize effect on your ranking.  Nothing to do with whether Chinese are present as you make out.  Yes only one such result *per player* is permitted by the new rules but the weighting is still outstandingly powerful and can help multiple players depending on the number of events and results.

Dang Qiu has 500 from winning Euros and 400 from winning a WTT Contender. Jorgic has 500 from winning Euro Top 16 and 420 from reaching the final of a WTT Star Contender. Polcanova has 500 from winning Euros and 350 from reaching the QF of Singapore Smash. So it's not like their continental points are way above their other results - these players have that kind of level globally. (The one who's currently lacking a strong global result is Diaz, but give her some time.)

In any case, one will have to see how this will all shake out over a typical 12-month period, it's too early to tell. And the biggest factor may not be continental points but which Chinese/Japanese players get the opportunity to play WTT events. 
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Since you said China and Japan and nor Korea or Hong Kong or Chinese Taipei, you are confident that those higher ranked players would beat players from these countries?

The point is not that they aren't capable of one somewhat high point result, especially in the absence of lots of competition or with a good draw.  The point is whether they would be as highly ranked as they are without the continental bonus.  If one used an ELO based system like the old system or ratings central, would these players be top 10?  And does pointing this out make someone toxic?

And I would add Hugo and Quadri to this list as well.  And I am not arguing that Dang or Jorgic or Polcanova or Diaz are undeserving in some significant sense.  I am saying that this is what people usually mean by undeserving.


Edited by NextLevel - 09/06/2022 at 8:02am
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Since you said China and Japan and nor Korea or Hong Kong or Chinese Taipei, you are confident that those higher ranked players would beat players from these countries?

I wrote Chinese/Japanese because those associations seem to have dozens of players who could do well in WTT events and obtain significant points - it's more a matter of internal selection who gets the opportunities and thus the ranking points. 

As for "undeserving," "toxic," etc., those are not words I use, and I'm not going to continue this argument. I already said that I'm not going to defend the world ranking, or the whole WTT system for that matter.
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Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Since you said China and Japan and nor Korea or Hong Kong or Chinese Taipei, you are confident that those higher ranked players would beat players from these countries?

I wrote Chinese/Japanese because those associations seem to have dozens of players who could do well in WTT events and obtain significant points - it's more a matter of internal selection who gets the opportunities and thus the ranking points. 

As for "undeserving," "toxic," etc., those are not words I use, and I'm not going to continue this argument. I already said that I'm not going to defend the world ranking, or the whole WTT system for that matter.

Understood you don't use those words, I am using words that have been used on the thread to describe various positions or criticisms, and I am trying to show that a sympathetic understanding of people's positions on this topic doesn't require malicious intent to be attributed to them.

In general these are complex issues and I am sure that on complex issues I myself have been on both sides of the topic at various times.  As I said you can be a critic of Lily's play and argue that the current system gives her a ranking that is not in proportion with her performances without harboring some profound dislike for her (though the language used and the context of such a view may be limiting or limited).  
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Joola Vyzaryz Trinity
FH: GT
BH: GT
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Points: 4610 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2022 at 9:02am
The malicious comments were not limited to Lily's play or her world ranking but attacked her attitude, alleged lack of professionalism, inadequate work ethic, etc. No need to rehash all this, it's well documented now on this thread.
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Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

No player deserves to qualify for national representation to international competitions based upon the ITTF ranking system.  No player.  The Japanese don't qualify using the ITTF ranking system.  The Chinese don't qualify using the ITTF ranking system.

CTTA: Top 4 players by WR qualify for WTTC 2022
HKTTA: Top 4 players by WR qualify for Asian Games 2022
CTTTA: Top 2 players by WR qualify for WTTC 2022 and Asian Games 2022
KTTA: Top 1 player by WR qualify for WTTC 2022 and Asian Games 2022

JTTA: We have always wanted to qualify by WR but the WTT event structure does not allow for equality of opportunity and so we have no choice but to go our own way.

Edited by zeio - 09/06/2022 at 9:43am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Edited by bard romance - 09/06/2022 at 9:36am
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Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

The malicious comments were not limited to Lily's play or her world ranking but attacked her attitude, alleged lack of professionalism, inadequate work ethic, etc. No need to rehash all this, it's well documented now on this thread.

You act as if people don't infer things from limited information about one's results/progress that could be wrong in the broader context of better information.  It is common practice amongst people in sports commentary and if we were to be honest, we all do it at some point or the other.  After all, you just said that the primary reason why people don't respect winning the European championships is because China isn't there, even though people clearly pointed out the disparate impact of continental ranking points on WTT rankings.

Donn's point was that not having seen any significant changes to Lily's game despite well known limitations is about her attitude to improvement, professionalism and work ethic.  This would hardly be different from someone saying that Quadri needs to work on his backhand and that his lack of improvement in that regard is a result of inadequate work etc.  It may very well be untrue, but judging by results is not uncommon in the world we live in.  That's why we have these conversations - to encourage reflection and antifragility.

Thanks for pointing out that the comments were "malicious".



Edited by NextLevel - 09/06/2022 at 9:58am
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You're welcome.

As a matter of principle I'm uncomfortable "inferring" anything about an athlete's work ethic, off-court attitude, or lifestyle. We don't know all the circumstances, and it's none of our business anyway.
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Since you said China and Japan and nor Korea or Hong Kong or Chinese Taipei, you are confident that those higher ranked players would beat players from these countries?

The point is not that they aren't capable of one somewhat high point result, especially in the absence of lots of competition or with a good draw.  The point is whether they would be as highly ranked as they are without the continental bonus.  If one used an ELO based system like the old system or ratings central, would these players be top 10?  And does pointing this out make someone toxic?

And I would add Hugo and Quadri to this list as well.  And I am not arguing that Dang or Jorgic or Polcanova or Diaz are undeserving in some significant sense.  I am saying that this is what people usually mean by undeserving.

I was curious. /s

https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022_36_SEN_WS.html
Top 20
6 Hayata 2710-500+105=2315, highest point SCT 600
7 DHK 1670-90+5=1585, highest point SCT 420
8->12 Han Ying 1580-500+5=1085, highest point CCUP 500
10->13 Polcanova 1465-500+35=1000, highest point CC 500
11->17 Diaz 1355-500+35=890, highest point CC 500
12->9 YXX 1285-100+55=1240, highest point CT 400
13->26 Mittelham 1230-500+5=735, highest point CCUP 500
16->14 FTW 1099-100+0=999, highest point SCT 420
17->27 Shan Xiaona 970-350+25=645, highest point CC 350
19->28 Takahashi 945-350+45=640, highest point CC 350

| With continental result | W/O continental result  |
|----|-------------|------|----|-------------|------|
| 1  | SYS         | 5770 | 1  | SYS         | 5770 |
| 2  | CM          | 5575 | 2  | CM          | 5575 |
| 3  | WMY         | 4710 | 3  | WMY         | 4710 |
| 4  | WYD         | 4220 | 4  | WYD         | 4220 |
| 5  | Ito         | 2905 | 5  | Ito         | 2905 |
| 6  | Hayata      | 2710 | 6  | Hayata      | 2315 |
| 7  | DHK         | 1670 | 7  | DHK         | 1585 |
| 8  | Han Ying    | 1580 | 9  | Ishikawa    | 1575 |
| 9  | Ishikawa    | 1575 | 12 | YXX         | 1240 |
| 10 | Polcanova   | 1465 | 14 | Kihara      | 1225 |
| 11 | Diaz        | 1355 | 15 | JJH         | 1225 |
| 12 | YXX         | 1285 | 8  | Han Ying    | 1085 |
| 13 | Mittelham   | 1230 | 10 | Polcanova   | 1000 |
| 14 | Kihara      | 1225 | 16 | FTW         | 999  |
| 15 | JJH         | 1225 | 18 | Hirano      | 960  |
| 16 | FTW         | 1099 | 20 | CXT         | 900  |
| 17 | Shan Xiaona | 970  | 11 | Diaz        | 890  |
| 18 | Hirano      | 960  | 13 | Mittelham   | 735  | 26 in reality
| 19 | Takahashi   | 945  | 17 | Shan Xiaona | 645  | 27 in reality
| 20 | CXT         | 900  | 19 | Takahashi   | 640  | 28 in reality


Edited by zeio - 09/06/2022 at 2:30pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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