Limits of countering style

to give you a sample 

Purett wrote: to give you a sample  will shortz is 64 he plays for over 3 years(maybe longer) every day  and all that time he gets lessons from 2400,2500,2650 and 2700 players  but still stays the same level i think he's around 1800

he does not put as much energy into getting better maybe? mjamja does study the game and is in an ascending curve level wise; Will is like my friend: $100,000 worth of lessons and same 1800 level before and after because he tells the coach what he wants to do instead of listening and work on weaknesses like serves and serve returns, recovery and footwork. Why would you pay a coach just to play and have fun? Will and my friend are not good examples of older people wanting to progress; mjamja is.

mark, have you considered LP on one side?

mjamja wrote: What do you think would be the USATT rating limit for a player using a fairly basic countering game?  Counter or block topspin on both sides.  Bh roll for opening backspin and Fh spin loop for opening backspin.  Just considering avg player not someone with some special gift for playing the countering style. I am already countering with SP on Bh.  My Fh looping is really poor.  Was wondering if I might actually go farther if I just gave up Fh looping and focused on hitting and countering from Fh.   Currently USATT 1880, playing 4 days a week with no formal coaching available, and 62 years old. Mark

Your backhand countering game is excellent.  Excluding any mental problems you have is there a reason you're not better at looping? 

Will you be going to the Nationals again this year? 

Your age shouldn't be a problem.  I'm 10 years older than you and still improving.

obesechopper wrote: So long as you have a good kill shot to threaten them with, I don't know if it's too limiting. Like with classical defenders, they fall a bit to the wayside (although strangely enough, in the 60+ age groups classical defenders do quite well!) a bit by being too predictable. You can block, block, block and essentially wage a war of attrition. If you have not only a kill shot, but your blocking game sets up opportunities to kill (as opposed to simply put the ball back on the table), then you automatically gain lethality in your game!  Highest guy now playing that style might be He Zhi Wen? Or looser, Stefan Fegerl? Matsudaira? Jose Luis Machado was quite a blocker also.  Although I think most lower rank (non-pro) blocker/counter types use pips on one side in an effort to create those opportunities to smash a winner.  Good blocking is very skillful. Drop shots, dead blocks, changing the spin on blocks, direction and pace etc. it's very technical stuff when you get down to it. So many people think blocking is just a passive hold out your paddle type of style. It can be... but good blockers know it isn't!

mts388 wrote: mjamja wrote: What do you think would be the USATT rating limit for a player using a fairly basic countering game?  Counter or block topspin on both sides.  Bh roll for opening backspin and Fh spin loop for opening backspin.  Just considering avg player not someone with some special gift for playing the countering style. I am already countering with SP on Bh.  My Fh looping is really poor.  Was wondering if I might actually go farther if I just gave up Fh looping and focused on hitting and countering from Fh.   Currently USATT 1880, playing 4 days a week with no formal coaching available, and 62 years old. Mark Your backhand countering game is excellent.  Excluding any mental problems you have is there a reason you're not better at looping?  Will you be going to the Nationals again this year?  Your age shouldn't be a problem.  I'm 10 years older than you and still improving.

There are some hitters here in the 2050 - 2100 range.

I once watched Eric Owens toy with 2200 players by never hitting a heavy spin or hitting more than about 50% of his normal pace  He pushed, blocked, and countered softly and anihilated them  He was around 2650 at the time, this was at least 10 years ago, but I remember it vividly.   He actually did it to show me what you could do by just keeping the ball on the table.  Obviously he made it look easier than it really was.   Still..

I have seen a 2300/2400 jpen hitter in koreatown in action, he hardly ever looped but countered everything really fast in to really uncomfortable spots for his opponents, he i think is in his 40s, but probably had a lot of training as a kid.

LUCKYLOOP wrote: If you put long pips OX on your BH, realistically possible to increase your rating from 1880 to 2000-2200.

LUCKYLOOP wrote: If you put long pips OX on your BH, realistically possible to increase your rating from 1880 to 2000-2200.

Mark's backhand is fine.  I wouldn't mess with it.

mts388 wrote: LUCKYLOOP wrote: If you put long pips OX on your BH, realistically possible to increase your rating from 1880 to 2000-2200. Mark's backhand is fine.  I wouldn't mess with it.

Then his long pips hitting BH would be more dangerous than most Lp players.

Seems like samsanov has some countering game, no?

"Was wondering if I might actually go farther if I just gave up Fh looping and focused on hitting and countering from Fh."

It's really coming down to a shot selection question rather than a complete change in your style.  You don't want to make any bigger change than you have to.

So should you go full out trying to spin a forehand if it's an erratic shot for you and/or throwing you off balance for the next ball?  Well, no, not if it's costing you more than it's gaining you, and not if you have spent a lot of time trying to improve it to no avail. 

Does this impose some sort of upper limit on your level?  Well, yes of course it does.   Ma Long plays the way he does for a reason!  But the game of modern professional offensive table tennis is not a realistic style for everybody, and it is especially challenging for people in their 60s because it demands so much footwork and body rotation (not to mention vision and anticipation)! 

So what is that limit? Impossible to say, but higher than you are now if you are stubbornly sticking with shots and habits that are actually beating you more than helping you.  I think it could be pretty high for a person with really good serves, returns, short game, and who doesn't beat himself.

Mark, we all make those choices.  Eventually.  Some people commenting here maybe have not had to make them yet.  Their time will come, though.  Loop when it's a safe shot, counter the other times, it's fine.