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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mudy_431 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 12:31am
Alfie, just loose your grip for underspin looping, it will give 99% control.
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racquetsforsale View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 1:45am
I think both sides are right regarding the use of the legs.

P is right about the negligible contribution of the leg thrust from a physics point of view. Just do this simple experiment: don't swing your arm and keep your entire upper body and hips rigid, so no rotation; now just push off your legs like you do when hitting a normal loop (no jumping now) and see how much racket head speed that generates. Not much, right.

However, the use of the legs is essential because it is part of the kinetic chain. It is the first link of the kinetic chain that eventually drives the acceleration of the arm and hence directly contributes to racket speed. The key, though, is to coordinate the thrust so that it indeed contributes to arm speed. If there is a disconnect, then it is pointless.

Also, the leg thrust is part of the weight transfer movement, which is necessary, along with the horizontal rotation of the torso, to "meet" the ball or "go after" the ball. The necessity of this is most evident when you get a slow ball that doesn't come at you. If you try to loop this ball with just your arm swing, without the forward weight transfer and without rotating your upper torso, you're just going to whiff or you'll make a very "thin" contact, barely grazing the ball. To see this another way, just bounce the ball on the floor and try to brush it without rotating your torso and transferring your weight forward. If you're truly swinging the racket on edge (racket angle = swing angle) and your entire arm and racket moves in a single inclined plane, it's going to be a whiff or a very thin contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thaidog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 2:44am
This probably a good clip to illustrate great use of the legs in conjunction with looping underspin:


Great weight transfer!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 3:08am
I looked at Timo Boll vs Joo Se Hyuk videos.  I see Timo Boll using his legs a lot but not to lift as much to get forward momentum.
Did anybody do the math?
130 rev/sec*2*π*0.020m=16.33 meters/second.
This is the MINIMUM tangential speed of the paddle relative to the ball to lift a ball spinning at 130 revolutions per second necessary to keep the ball from diving down into the net.
Does anybody think that Timo Boll is lifting his body at anything close to that?
If so does Timo Bolls feed leave the ground? NO. 

A physics question.  If I shoot something vertically into the air at 1 meter/second, how high does it go? 1 meter per second is 1/16th of the minimum paddle speed to return at 130 rps chopped ball.

Racquetsforsale is right.  We are not machines where we move different parts of our body in isolation from other parts but leg lift part is insignificant.

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Without using your legs to loop, you have minimum chance of proper recovery to ready position for next shot. 
This doesn't make sense.  If I don't move I don't need to recover unless I was out of position in the first place.  Using your legs in to twist your body provides extra speed.  Being in position requires moving the body horizontally NOT VERTICALLY so the ball is the right distance from your body to make a proper stroke.   I find that moving horizontally to be in the right position to make the proper stroke to be more important than any leg lift.    So I would prioritize this way.   Being in position is definitely necessary,  timing is necessary because the ball must be hit,   matching or exceeding the balls's rotational speed is necessary.   The small amount of lift you get from the legs is insignificant but it may help.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 3:21am
This doesn't make sense.  If I don't move I don't need to recover unless I was out of position in the first place.  Using your legs in to twist your body provides extra speed.  Being in position requires moving the body horizontally NOT VERTICALLY so the ball is the right distance from your body to make a proper stroke.   I find that moving horizontally to be in the right position to make the proper stroke to be more important than any leg lift.    So I would prioritize this way.   Being in position is definitely necessary,  timing is necessary because the ball must be hit,   matching or exceeding the balls's rotational speed is necessary.   The small amount of lift you get from the legs is insignificant but it may help.


The last sentence pretty much summed up your knowledge of table tennis... There's a saying "better not say stuff you don't really know to pretend you do, than open your mouth to..."  Wink



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ashes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 4:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 4:37am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

This doesn't make sense.  If I don't move I don't need to recover unless I was out of position in the first place.  Using your legs in to twist your body provides extra speed.  Being in position requires moving the body horizontally NOT VERTICALLY so the ball is the right distance from your body to make a proper stroke.   I find that moving horizontally to be in the right position to make the proper stroke to be more important than any leg lift.    So I would prioritize this way.   Being in position is definitely necessary,  timing is necessary because the ball must be hit,   matching or exceeding the balls's rotational speed is necessary.   The small amount of lift you get from the legs is insignificant but it may help.


The last sentence pretty much summed up your knowledge of table tennis... There's a saying "better not say stuff you don't really know to pretend you do, than open your mouth to..."  Wink



I am confused here but this is the exact thread that lets me build my own game because pieces of it can help me going in a direction not intended by the thread and leading me to better understanding of the game anyways, thanks to my own creativity (O YEAH!).
Now I got to give back to the game explaining what I meant by that new direction and better understanding...euhhConfused. OK BRB.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 4:51am
admire my recovery!!!
I think roundrobin is right to say the legs are fundamental in looping only because if the legs are not used, the body is cut in 2 parts that compete against each other in the process when it's about to recover. If that idea is not accepted it means we are talking about a loop kill where recovery is by definition out of the picture: the ball is not supposed to come back so recovery is not a factor.
for a relaxed loop the legs go (weight transfer) then the hips etc.. and at the end the left leg (right handed player) push back to ready position with a spring effect: that spring effect is something to think about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 5:17am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

... the use of the legs is essential because it is part of the kinetic chain. It is the first link of the kinetic chain that eventually drives the acceleration of the arm and hence directly contributes to racket speed. The key, though, is to coordinate the thrust so that it indeed contributes to arm speed. If there is a disconnect, then it is pointless.
this is the very best explanantion I have ever read about how important the legs are if the fh loop.
I now understand even better why being relaxed is so fundamental. A coach in the Seattle area insists a lot on being "relaxed", being like a dancer. Thanks to him I insist on this now when I coach, saying that if the fluidity of the whole stroke is not there then 'something' is lost at every stage of it (ankles, knees, hips shoulder etc..).
 
*last edited to avoid the use of the word 'power'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

but leg lift part is insignificant.

I guess I better tell my coach he's full on crap then.  Years of experience and coaching be damned.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

admire my recovery!!!
I think roundrobin is right to say the legs are fundamental in looping only because if the legs are not used, the body is cut in 2 parts that compete against each other in the process when it's about to recover. If that idea is not accepted it means we are talking about a loop kill where recovery is by definition out of the picture: the ball is not supposed to come back so recovery is not a factor.
for a relaxed loop the legs go (weight transfer) then the hips etc.. and at the end the left leg (right handed player) push back to ready position with a spring effect: that spring effect is something to think about.


Recovery by legs is critical in performing every stroke, especially looping underspin.  It is an integral part of a stroke to finish back in a neutral position to be able to execute the next one, no matter how sure a player thinks he/she got a point winner... I was told by former world No. 3 Zhang Te Ying that world-class table tennis is a sport that relies on at least 50% legwork (not just footwork), more than anything else.  I would estimate looping underspin at 80% reliance on legs.  The compress-release upward/forward "lift" provided by your legs is absolutely critical to transfer your entire body weight to the ball.
Smile


Edited by roundrobin - 02/21/2011 at 1:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 1:47pm
racquetsforsale

Very good explanation and the best I've seen to date, on how to loop on this forum.

One thing I see at coaching, are beginners or players who've yet to learn and understand, the importance of using their legs effectively, in combination with other body movement; as part of the kinetic chain, that allows you to generate more power, spin and bat speed; on a variety of shots.

And when you demonstrate a loop; they tend to notice your arm and waist movements; whilst often missing how effectively you use leg movement, in preparation for and during the shot.

As a result, in order to mimic your shot, without the effective use of the legs; you often tend to see them compensating with a more exaggerated arm or wrist movement; which doesn't always look relaxed either and also deprives them of the extra power and bat acceleration, that effective leg movement can provide.


fatt

Playing relaxed is a good idea, as it makes it easier to play your shots consistently.







Edited by Peter C - 02/21/2011 at 1:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

... the use of the legs is essential because it is part of the kinetic chain. It is the first link of the kinetic chain that eventually drives the acceleration of the arm and hence directly contributes to racket speed. The key, though, is to coordinate the thrust so that it indeed contributes to arm speed. If there is a disconnect, then it is pointless.
this is the very best explanantion I have ever read about how important the legs are if the fh loop.
I now understand even better why being relaxed is so fundamental. A coach in the Seattle area insists a lot on being "relaxed", being like a dancer. Thanks to him I insist on this now when I coach, saying that if the fluidity of the whole stroke is not there then 'something' is lost at every stage of it (ankles, knees, hips shoulder etc..).
 
*last edited to avoid the use of the word 'power'


A simpler and better explanation to the importance of being relaxed is the the need to efficiently transfer your body weight to the ball and then back to ready position.  You can't do so if you are not "light on your feet" by incorporating your leg movements in almost every stroke.  The key word here is "balance".  Every big movement that you perform you must think of the axis of rotation of your stroke at all times, so that you may rotate your entire body weight on this axis with maximum efficiency.  Once you finish performing your stroke you should rotate back on this axis to the next ready position.  One thing you should be aware of is at the world-class level the "ready" position for next shot is rarely neutral but rather a prepared response for a guestimated return by your opponent, so your rotation along your body weight axis to the next "ready" position will always involve shuffling of both feet to complete... Very much like professional-level dancing.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRobot99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 3:25pm
This thread has now reached the point where it can merge with another thread on being confident and relaxed.

One thing I've noticed for (nearly anything) in general:  When someone is good at something, it can look easy. For someone to make something look easy, one must be relaxed. Ergo, to be good at something, one must be relaxed (at least in mind).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2011 at 7:19pm
Thanks, Peter C and Fatt.

Edited by racquetsforsale - 02/21/2011 at 7:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2011 at 12:48am
Ok, we all agree that legs are important to get into position and add to the paddle speed.  However...
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

but leg lift part is insignificant.

I guess I better tell my coach he's full on crap then.  Years of experience and coaching be damned. 
You can't argue with physics.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2011 at 12:56am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Ok, we all agree that legs are important to get into position and add to the paddle speed.  However...
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

but leg lift part is insignificant.

I guess I better tell my coach he's full on crap then.  Years of experience and coaching be damned. 
You can't argue with physics.


Yeah pnachtwey, you are smarter than all of us.  We get it.


Edited by roundrobin - 02/22/2011 at 1:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote infinite_loop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2011 at 2:00am
 
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

but leg lift part is insignificant.
You can't argue with physics.
 

You are arriving at conclusions without taking into account the context (kinetic chain).

As an analogy, consider a whip - a near-ideal kinetic chain.

Jerking the handle of the whip can cause the tip of the whip to exceed speed of sound.

Does the handle move anywhere near that speed? No. Not even 1% of that speed. 

But, the handle movement is what drives the tip of the whip to supersonic speeds.

Applying your logic, we will conclude "handle movement part is insignificant".



Edited by infinite_loop - 02/23/2011 at 1:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2011 at 2:08am
Originally posted by infinite_loop infinite_loop wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Ok, we all agree that legs are important to get into position and add to the paddle speed.  However...
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

but leg lift part is insignificant.

I guess I better tell my coach he's full on crap then.  Years of experience and coaching be damned. 
You can't argue with physics.

Nobody is arguing with physics; only that you are arriving at conclusions without taking into account the context (kinetic chain).

As an analogy, consider a whip - a near-ideal kinetic chain.

Jerking the handle of the whip can cause the tip of the whip to exceed speed of sound.

Does the handle move anywhere near that speed? No. Not even 1% of that speed. 

But, the handle movement is what drives the tip of the whip to supersonic speeds.

Applying your logic, we will conclude "handle movement part is insignificant".

+1 So very well imaged!
 
Some may say that legs in the FH loop don't do much at the scale of the legs but that action is huge since when it does not happen the loop is so much weaker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2011 at 9:25am

They The way I always think about it is the punching bag amusement game at carnivals. There is always a skinny guy who surprises everyone with a higher score than the beef eaters because the skinny guy seems to use all his potential momentum to drive through the punch bag than the meat head to try to punch the bag from a near stationary position.

This realization for me was on par with the realization that you can your to non-racket hand to hit the ball harder and faster. Previously I was so focused on hitting the ball with my right side of body I never consciously focused on initiating that momentum from my left arm by moving it in the opposite direction (not towards the ball). Now my hits are twice as deadly but with 25% less required energy.

 
Just my two cents worth as a newb


Edited by MrSmash - 02/22/2011 at 9:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote figgie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2011 at 10:58am
In the baseball world, the pitchers and their trainers call it summation of motion.
 
raquetforsale and infinite_loop nailed it. It is infact the whip effect.
 
 Boxers use it to produce power behind each punch (striding, hip rotation with the leading going in the opposite direction of the hitting arm. That is the collective summation of all that body motion or in other words LOTS of energy focused in a small area). Pitchers use it to toss a baseball at some pretty obscene speeds (again, striding/weight transfer, hip rotation, wrist snap... sound familiar?) Quaterbacks use the same mechanics to shotgun a ball into their recievers or to send the football flying 40 yards down the field.


Edited by figgie - 02/22/2011 at 10:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chris.b40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2011 at 11:05am

You guys have it easier now looping underpin  with all these new developments and technologically advanced rubbers,you should see what we had to loop with in the  70's you might not like the sport back then.  Heart

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2011 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by chris.b40 chris.b40 wrote:

You guys have it easier now looping underpin  with all these new developments and technologically advanced rubbers,you should see what we had to loop with in the  70's you might not like the sport back then.  Heart



USA's Danny Seemiller was a world top 20 player in that era and one of the best loopers at that time... He said looping against undespin is like throwing a 10lb. weight over a tall fence.
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