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Need advice from high level players on stance

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2013 at 10:20pm
To time the stroke well the best reference, imo, is the ball bounce. Basically bounce with the ball. As the ball is hitting the table a player should have completed their footwork adjustment, their legs bent and paddle at the end of the back swing. As the ball is rising up from the bounce, the player also rises up to meet the ball pushing up/forward with your legs and torso. 

Most common problem is being late to the ball. What I mean by that is players not having their positioning adjusted by the time the ball is bouncing. Players will lag the back swing in adjustment to the shot but feet need to be in place as much as possible at the bounce rather than trying to adjust after. 

Allot of those fast backhand exchanges that the pros engage in are usually won by disrupting the opponents ability to time the ball. 

It will take time and effort to re calibrate to this timing in match play but it makes a world of difference. 

Examples:





Notice in the match play how often they are moving to be in position by the time the ball bounces. 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 3:38am


Me in Red, O in white.  This video was taken about two years ago I think.  Maybe I can shoot a short clip of him during a match this weekend so that others can help correct his stance.


Edited by liulin04 - 09/19/2013 at 3:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 4:21am
Originally posted by jt99sf jt99sf wrote:

Originally posted by O! Ju Qian O! Ju Qian wrote:


What I need to do is try to keep those legs spread out most of the time to be balanced or at least immediately come back to it.  It isn't about having a "low stance," but more about having a consistent stance for every stroke.  Also, the coach was commenting on the girl's movement/footwork something about being "under your toes" on your shots.  What did he mean by that?  I really appreciate the video and the help Zapendholder.

I also like your explanation about using the half step and knees.



Stand ready by the front half of your feet and not the heel. This way your motion will be forward.


Yes Jt99sf is correct.

Also, the purpose is to bounce off from your toes.
You must treat your feet like a spring, the more force you push onto your toes to take off, the faster and further it will go. I always tell my students they must believe this is possible first before doing it.

If you look at the girl, her body weight is never distributed evenly on 2 feets or "v stance". One feet/toe always will have more weight distribution than other, so the weight on one feet will help the toe to shoot out (when needing to hit or to recover).

However this is a end result, about 1 year prior to that, she could not move continuously like that. I had to do many drills to get her feet to move first and not moving the hand first and before the feet.

Here is some videos from Jan 2013, so you can the improvement, and maybe you can get a feeder to dipulicate some of the multiball drills

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=133902760106288&set=vb.443481379036123&type=3&video_source=pages_video_set

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=134000240096540&set=vb.443481379036123&type=3&video_source=pages_video_set

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=135474113282486&set=vb.443481379036123&type=3&video_source=pages_video_set


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=138960619600502&set=vb.443481379036123&type=3&video_source=pages_video_set

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=131414000355164&set=vb.443481379036123&type=3&theater

I only started to take over the coaching role for her around july/aug last year, and all I have been doing is footwork. She is now writing her final year school high exams, so these past few month I have not seen her at all.

But from july last year, only 2 months and she was moving better and good enough to knock out number 2 seed in the U17 girls in the SF from a 0-2 to win 3-2 but to loose in the final in Oct 2012. Her top 2 position allowed her to make the SA U18 team, which participated in African U18 teams and U21 teams in April this year, where U21 teams she contributed in winning a team bronze medal in Africa.
All the improvement and her career highs in that 6 month period is basically from footwork training only.

I agree looking at videos from the higher rated players is good, but some times it is too good to really learn from. So I hope taking a player more or less in your level is a better short term goal.
If you need additional advice, you can always PM and I am more than happy to assist.

Btw, any guess what Cheyenne's USATT should be, based on the videos above?
I would guess under 2000, maybe 1800?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 7:05am
Originally posted by O! Ju Qian O! Ju Qian wrote:

There's a bad habit of mine that I started to notice during my games and that is that I have the tendency to loop more than I loop drive.  What I found out is that I am probably not spreading my legs enough.  I always thought I did, but now I'm starting to doubt myself.  I need advice from those power loopers out there, how far do you need to spread your legs in order to get shots to be a little more consistent in terms of power and do you stay like that for most shots including short games.


 Its got nothing to do with your stance, rather the angle at which you are addressing the ball, and the plain of your stroke. The start of your stroke for looping a pushed backspin ball is low as you brush up the back of the ball, but if the ball is blocked or re-looped back, you need to contact towards the top of the ball, meaning the plain of your stroke needs to be more forward and with a thicker contact angle. Two completely different strokes really, and failure to separate then manifests in plenty of players below advanced level leading to inconsistency and lack of power. You need to start your strokes and recover to the correct position, hard work, good practice and plenty of drills, its the only way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 7:18am
Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:



Me in Red, O in white.  This video was taken about two years ago I think.  Maybe I can shoot a short clip of him during a match this weekend so that others can help correct his stance.


O, how in the world did you manage to not fall on the floor.
Your entire body weight was leaning backwards.
If it wasn't for grippy flooring, I think you could actually fall and hurt yourself LOL

but thumbs up for 2 penholders in the video Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote decoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 7:37am
Zap my main question. is how did you not get distracted coaching her or raise an embarrassing moment LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 7:53am
Originally posted by decoi decoi wrote:

Zap my main question. is how did you not get distracted coaching her or raise an embarrassing moment LOL


what do you mean?
what embarrassing moment, can you give me some examples please
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote decoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 8:02am
well pitching a tent is one one them. im of course referring to the first video you psoted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 8:16am
Originally posted by decoi decoi wrote:

well pitching a tent is one one them. im of course referring to the first video you psoted


hmm.. because she is a kid...

That was the only time she came to practice like that, I recall she had another activity before that, thus that dress code. Kind of stupid, because she wasn't comfortable training like that, as you can see, at times she needs to adjust the strap.


Edited by ZApenholder - 09/19/2013 at 8:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thomasson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 8:39am
ZApendholder, now you might notice why I think this forum is turning into a forum filled with hopeless men ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 8:50am
Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:



Me in Red, O in white.  This video was taken about two years ago I think.  Maybe I can shoot a short clip of him during a match this weekend so that others can help correct his stance.


Nice chopping by a penholder!  Don't see that too often. 

There is one pretty easy solution for the guy in white (is that the OP?).  As the underspin he is receiving gets heavier (as the point progresses), he is changing the trajectory of his entire arm movement.  As a result, by the third shot, he is about to fall on his rear as his arm trajectory is almost vertical, he is straining to lift the ball so much.  It is not efficient.  Instead, as the chops get heavier, all he needed  to do was open his racket angle just a little and then use a normal stroke that is more horizontal in its trajectory and much more compact.  That way you get power along with spin.  The stroke should not change too much when looping heavy underspin compared to lighter spin, or even no-spin, instead adjust more by changing racket angle.  This is something that Eric Owens used to emphasize a lot, and he told me it is something he learned training in China.  How much to change racket angle?  Not that much but if you play around with it a bit, you will figure it out.

Just looked back a bit.  I think I just said what APW said in a different way.

That suggestion is besides the fact that the drills ZAP illustrated are the best and possibly only way to improve footwork.  You have to practice hitting while moving in a structured way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Thomasson Thomasson wrote:

ZApendholder, now you might notice why I think this forum is turning into a forum filled with hopeless men ;)


well, just very important that it musn't get carried away or cross the line.
Not sure about your place, but we have a huge shortage of female players in South Africa

All the future male players is going to struggle getting mixed double medals
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 9:02am
man penhold chop nice! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 9:06am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

man penhold chop nice! 


Yeah, I guess you know what I want to do now hey LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thomasson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 9:33am
Its the same problem here, there aren't alot of female players. And the difference in level seems to be really big. Mixed doubles aren't organised alot, maybe 2/3 tournaments a year that have it as a side event. Most girl that do play on a level similar to mine just join in the normal mens doubles with either a female friend or a male friend.
I actually find it pretty hard to play doubles with a girl, they have a very different approach to the game then I do (im mostly spin oriented). Might also be the reason why I have a hard time playing girls that aren't choppers.. They just smack time and time again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

man penhold chop nice! 


Thanks!  That video was shot two years ago for myself and the OP.  Since then my penhold chops have improved even more.  Let's see if I can get a make a video of myself chopping with a penhold next week or so.  So far, I can chop pretty consistently from both wings. 

Now I have two styles that I can play against different opponents.  One's all out attacking, looping from both wings, and one's modern defensive play.  I hope to make a full length video of my matches in the coming months or so.  I just need to find a good tripod for my phone to mount on before I can shoot the video. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



There is one pretty easy solution for the guy in white (is that the OP?).  As the underspin he is receiving gets heavier (as the point progresses), he is changing the trajectory of his entire arm movement.  As a result, by the third shot, he is about to fall on his rear as his arm trajectory is almost vertical, he is straining to lift the ball so much.  It is not efficient.  Instead, as the chops get heavier, all he needed  to do was open his racket angle just a little and then use a normal stroke that is more horizontal in its trajectory and much more compact.  That way you get power along with spin.  The stroke should not change too much when looping heavy underspin compared to lighter spin, or even no-spin, instead adjust more by changing racket angle.  

 Yes, far too many players think that the only way to lift heavy backspin is to generate more upward force on contact than the speed of the balls rotation, when in actual fact the spin on the ball can be used to create the topspin with an open bat face contact, and like you say, that is how you get power. You need to be good at quantifying the incoming balls spin though because if you attempt this on a floated ball you will be miles off the end of the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 3:07pm
Eric used to give me multiball drills where he would vary underspin and also throw in dead balls and topspin just to work on judging the right racket angle.  The idea was the stroke was supposed to always be the same.  Then we incorporated movement into the thing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

 Its got nothing to do with your stance, rather the angle at which you are addressing the ball, and the plain of your stroke. The start of your stroke for looping a pushed backspin ball is low as you brush up the back of the ball, but if the ball is blocked or re-looped back, you need to contact towards the top of the ball, meaning the plain of your stroke needs to be more forward and with a thicker contact angle. Two completely different strokes really, and failure to separate then manifests in plenty of players below advanced level leading to inconsistency and lack of power. You need to start your strokes and recover to the correct position, hard work, good practice and plenty of drills, its the only way.


Generally if someone has very basic coaching for strokes, they should do ok. The larger issue is they're not often within the well under foot or so of tolerance for consistent attacking strokes. Just do the experiment referenced above and it's easy to understand why.

The other issue not often discussed is that players are train/play all sorts of attacks well before it's necessary in development. It's actually much easier to learn how to get in position for at the table counters and blocks, AND it builds a better base anyway.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:

Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

man penhold chop nice! 


Thanks!  That video was shot two years ago for myself and the OP.  Since then my penhold chops have improved even more.  Let's see if I can get a make a video of myself chopping with a penhold next week or so.  So far, I can chop pretty consistently from both wings. 

Now I have two styles that I can play against different opponents.  One's all out attacking, looping from both wings, and one's modern defensive play.  I hope to make a full length video of my matches in the coming months or so.  I just need to find a good tripod for my phone to mount on before I can shoot the video. Wink


what setup are you using?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Eric used to give me multiball drills where he would vary underspin and also throw in dead balls and topspin just to work on judging the right racket angle.  The idea was the stroke was supposed to always be the same.  Then we incorporated movement into the thing. 


Same stroke, but backspin still needs more upward vector to lift than almost horizontal FH/FH counter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 3:56pm
edited....


In practice, yes you always end up lifting a bit more on heavy underspin than a straight counter (which need quite closed angle on my setup).  But by adjusting racket angle with underspin, the amount you need to do this is reduced very dramatically and you don't end up straining, you stay in balance, and you have power no matter what.  Mainly this idea is for dealing with heavy chop vs. light chop.  I mentioned this because in the video that Liulin showed the guy in white was looping underspin.  It takes a little practice to figure out how much to change angle, but it comes remarkably quickly once you work on it a bit.  It feels to me a bit as if you are using part of the opponents underspin to work for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:

Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

man penhold chop nice! 


Thanks!  That video was shot two years ago for myself and the OP.  Since then my penhold chops have improved even more.  Let's see if I can get a make a video of myself chopping with a penhold next week or so.  So far, I can chop pretty consistently from both wings. 

Now I have two styles that I can play against different opponents.  One's all out attacking, looping from both wings, and one's modern defensive play.  I hope to make a full length video of my matches in the coming months or so.  I just need to find a good tripod for my phone to mount on before I can shoot the video. Wink


what setup are you using?



I am currently using victas koji matsushita with rakza 7 soft on fh and tsp p1 curl on bh
My new setup will be joo se hyuk with t64 on fh and grass dtecs on bh. I hope my t64 will arrive soon.
I also just ordered some accessories for my phone to record videos with. So by next month, everything should be setup and ready to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:


I am currently using victas koji matsushita with rakza 7 soft on fh and tsp p1 curl on bh
My new setup will be joo se hyuk with t64 on fh and grass dtecs on bh. I hope my t64 will arrive soon.
I also just ordered some accessories for my phone to record videos with. So by next month, everything should be setup and ready to go.


Do you also RPB?

I am thinking of changing to SP on FH, maybe I should change SP to BH so I can chop and RPB still.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:


I am currently using victas koji matsushita with rakza 7 soft on fh and tsp p1 curl on bh
My new setup will be joo se hyuk with t64 on fh and grass dtecs on bh. I hope my t64 will arrive soon.
I also just ordered some accessories for my phone to record videos with. So by next month, everything should be setup and ready to go.


Do you also RPB?

I am thinking of changing to SP on FH, maybe I should change SP to BH so I can chop and RPB still.




Absolutely I RPB. Been rpbing for at least 10 years. In fact, my rpb is much more stronger than my fh loop. I twiddle too when I play as a defender. Chop chop chop BAM! RPB for the kill!!! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

edited....


In practice, yes you always end up lifting a bit more on heavy underspin than a straight counter (which need quite closed angle on my setup).  But by adjusting racket angle with underspin, the amount you need to do this is reduced very dramatically and you don't end up straining, you stay in balance, and you have power no matter what.  Mainly this idea is for dealing with heavy chop vs. light chop.  I mentioned this because in the video that Liulin showed the guy in white was looping underspin.  It takes a little practice to figure out how much to change angle, but it comes remarkably quickly once you work on it a bit.  It feels to me a bit as if you are using part of the opponents underspin to work for you.

It depends on what you want to do. A slower spinny return demands the more brushed vertical stroke. It's also IMO somewhat easier to execute without significant training unlike powering through w/ more fwd stroke.

In any case the point is that this is more matter of choice predicated on getting in position in the first place, which is where many are lacking before reaching this point.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 4:31pm
True.  But one thing people need to do is keep their balance during the point, or they won't be in position for the next shot.  If they are expending too much effort in looping owing to excessively vertical stroke -- as in the video Liulin posted of his partner, they tend to lose balance and then everthing falls apart. 

The question posed by the OP --the guy in the white shirt in that video I believe???? --- is how come he can't get power on loops, only slow spinny ones?  This is one reason why.  Hitting with consistent power does require some significant training as you say.  But you also have to know what it is you're supposed to be training.  Otherwise you just reinforce the same old thing you have been doing.   If he was happy with primarily hitting slow spinny brush loops he probably wouldn't have posted in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 4:39pm
Yes, sometimes people have bad form on strokes but in aggregate the balance of bad strokes vs bad footwork is strongly biased to the latter. Everybody who puts any effort into these things look decent against the robot but don't often get the chance to use it, and they wonder why their hard stroke/form training "falls apart".

On the vid itself I thought he was just dicking around.


Edited by AgentHEX - 09/19/2013 at 4:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2013 at 4:53pm
To make the above observation more evident, consider that it's probably not a coincidence that juniors are the only peeps u2000 with more than half-ass footwork. People also often claim they have a loop or whatever shot 300+ points above their actual level; it doesn't take a genius to figure out why they're not at that +however many points level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O! Ju Qian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2013 at 2:04am
Yea, that video was like 2 years ago.  That's a bad example of looping backspin btw.  I was told numerous time by different choppers not to loop like that, but I keep doing it.  You can already tell I'm not particularly enjoying looping those balls. 

If you are wondering why liulin04 is chopping with penhold, you should ask him why.  Even I don't understand him sometimes.  For a penholder, he does have nasty backhand. His backhand is more like a Ma Lin's (more spin) than a Wang Hao's and for penholder he uses rpb like over 60% of the time......=__=


Edited by O! Ju Qian - 09/21/2013 at 2:42am
BL: Yasaka Extra Offensive CP
FH: Hurricane 3 Pro
BH: Tenergy 05

"Practice is USELESS if you don't understand what you are doing."
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