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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/03/2019 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

I also agree with purple upset about the long prices for team packet pickup. I think  NATT had a certain routine and doesn't feel motivated to improve. It's the lack of competition.

Danny Seemiller used to run a competitive tournament that had good reports (although it was smaller). Sadly, he settled a few years back. We need that one back in a bigger scale.

Actually, though I don't have concrete information, I think Mark Nordby's death was a huge catalyst for the demise of that event.

There really should be more technology in these tournaments but it doesn't drive margin so it will take time to happen.  An app where teams can put in scores could save the organizers so much trouble.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/03/2019 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

Don't blame that. So many people like that. Is it wonderful whole team support their player?
This is much better than empty table. Very good crowed events! The people like that and they will come back next year.


Originally posted by Twiddler Twiddler wrote:

Team matches on one table? You have to be kidding. Guaranteed delays. No thanks.
I'm sure your team enjoyed rooting for each other on one table, and I met a team of juniors that refused to play more than one table (so the adults could coach them). Even so, it's just not practical. At 272 teams, even 1.5 tables isn't enough. They should be doing 2 tables per event.

My team was three hours behind at different times.  That makes for very long days.  No tournament should have those kinds of delays, just as no tournament should require 8 am and 8 pm starts on the same day or consecutive days.


We had one team try that once we got to 4 wins. The correct response is "There is a table available, are you playing or defaulting? The front desk says you have to play if there is a table available."

I did actually check with the control desk, they confirmed you have to play, you can't wait to see the results of the other table. In that particular match we were up 4-1, but wound up winning 5-4. Can you imagine the amount of delay if players "waited" every time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ttplayer91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2019 at 12:03am
The delays were really crazy in my division, 3 or 4 hours, we only finished Saturday before 9pm because another team skipped their 3pm match to start playing their 6pm match with us at 7pm right after we finished our 3pm. Their 3pm team was still playing their 1pm match at 7pm I think.

All the lower divisions had only one table for all our matches. It's not unusual for team matches to go to 9 with multiple 5 game matches taking 30 minutes. It doesnt add up.

Last year we had 1.5 tables for most our matches which was pretty reasonable. We had time to get lunch, find a table to practice between matches, watch division 1, etc, this year none of that.

Overall I love the tournament but too crowded this year. They should add another hall, reduce the price $50-$100 and try to attract 300 or 350 teams. Or cap at about 250 in the current hall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ttunderthesun21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2019 at 8:36am
Lower divisions only had 1 table per match?  I did not know this.  That is absurd, it should be common sense that regardless of skill lvl if you put 2 people about the same lvl on a table together the match more than likely will take a while.  Not sure if this was asked yet, but where do we file formal complaints?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2019 at 11:55am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

I also agree with purple upset about the long prices for team packet pickup. I think  NATT had a certain routine and doesn't feel motivated to improve. It's the lack of competition.

Danny Seemiller used to run a competitive tournament that had good reports (although it was smaller). Sadly, he settled a few years back. We need that one back in a bigger scale.

Actually, though I don't have concrete information, I think Mark Nordby's death was a huge catalyst for the demise of that event.

There really should be more technology in these tournaments but it doesn't drive margin so it will take time to happen.  An app where teams can put in scores could save the organizers so much trouble.
Yes, Danny told me specifically that it was Mark's passing that had ended that event. Danny also told (this was something like a year ago) that he was thinking of bringing it back again. I guess that didn't happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2019 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

I also agree with purple upset about the long prices for team packet pickup. I think  NATT had a certain routine and doesn't feel motivated to improve. It's the lack of competition.

Danny Seemiller used to run a competitive tournament that had good reports (although it was smaller). Sadly, he settled a few years back. We need that one back in a bigger scale.

Actually, though I don't have concrete information, I think Mark Nordby's death was a huge catalyst for the demise of that event.

There really should be more technology in these tournaments but it doesn't drive margin so it will take time to happen.  An app where teams can put in scores could save the organizers so much trouble.
Yes, Danny told me specifically that it was Mark's passing that had ended that event. Danny also told (this was something like a year ago) that he was thinking of bringing it back again. I guess that didn't happen.

With Butterfly reducing its scope in NA and Joola expanding, it is going to be harder to pull off.  But things like having better flooring and finishing matches on time go a long way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2019 at 9:47am
With Butterfly reducing its scope in NA

I had not heard this before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2019 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

With Butterfly reducing its scope in NA

I had not heard this before.
I'm skeptical of this, to be honest.  I haven't seen any signs of it and it's hard to imagine why they would do this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2019 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

With Butterfly reducing its scope in NA

I had not heard this before.
I'm skeptical of this, to be honest.  I haven't seen any signs of it and it's hard to imagine why they would do this.
They are/have reduced presence in NA in terms of supporting tournaments in regards to providing equipment (tables, barriers, etc) 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2019 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

I also agree with purple upset about the long prices for team packet pickup. I think  NATT had a certain routine and doesn't feel motivated to improve. It's the lack of competition.

Danny Seemiller used to run a competitive tournament that had good reports (although it was smaller). Sadly, he settled a few years back. We need that one back in a bigger scale.

Actually, though I don't have concrete information, I think Mark Nordby's death was a huge catalyst for the demise of that event.

There really should be more technology in these tournaments but it doesn't drive margin so it will take time to happen.  An app where teams can put in scores could save the organizers so much trouble.
there was someone last year in westchester he developed the app for it already not sure how far it went
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2019 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

With Butterfly reducing its scope in NA

I had not heard this before.
I'm skeptical of this, to be honest.  I haven't seen any signs of it and it's hard to imagine why they would do this.
Three of the bigger clubs, MDTTC, TriangleTT, and ICC are now Joola sponsored. Maybe Joola gave them a better deal than Butterfly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2019 at 4:29pm
Butterfly NA has always had a few peculiar policies.  Years ago if you wanted some of the nicer shirts they were impossible to buy.  They would sell them in Japan and give them out to a few top players in the USA but the only way to get your hands on them was to either fly to Japan or buy them second hand.  It was very strange they would have their top players wear these outfits but then not sell them to people who wanted to buy them.  Also to be a player and become sponsored by Butterfly is a confusing process.  There are players who are sponsored by Butterfly.  However when I contacted them on behalf of one of our 2700ish coaches who placed highly in the US Open, had many regular students and played most of the major and local tournaments, we were told unless he had a world ranking in the top 100, they weren't interested in sponsoring him.  No free shirts, no discounts, no nothing.  How many Americans are there in the top 100? Precisely 1 man and 2 women.   If they just sent him some clothes and equipment, they would instantly get that money back because he could just recommend his students use tenergy or play with an innerforce racket.  I am not exactly sure what they were thinking.  Joola on the other hand is trying to sponsor and help everyone and their brother. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2019 at 10:41pm
even lily zhang switched sponsors 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2019 at 11:46pm
We spent at least half of the tournament playing on only 1 table.  Matches are going to run long when this happens.  The floor was concrete, but at least wasn't slick (there were a few slick places), some times this is a big issue on concrete, but it was surprisingly good there.  Saturday was enough to make me worry about going back next year.  I'm getting too old for such long days, and it was an issue for me on Sunday.  I didn't recover fast enough, so I need to get in better shape.  It didn't help that our 4th player went AWOL in the middle of Saturday.  But that wasn't the tournaments fault.  It just meant we didn't get enough rest on Saturday.  4 days if you include practice on Thursday.

Other than that it was a pretty typical tournament, a few good wins and some losses to kids.  I liked the balls and tables, lighting where I played was good except for one court up against a column, and even then it wasn't that bad even for me. 

Next year?  I don't know yet, maybe I will go back, maybe not.  My other 2 teammates enjoyed themselves, so it is possible we will make a return appearance.  My only regret is not getting to watch some of the high tier events unfold.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2019 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

With Butterfly reducing its scope in NA

I had not heard this before.
I'm skeptical of this, to be honest.  I haven't seen any signs of it and it's hard to imagine why they would do this.
They are/have reduced presence in NA in terms of supporting tournaments in regards to providing equipment (tables, barriers, etc) 
 


I have heard this also from someone recently, although I have no way of confirming it other than the observation of seeing more Joola now and less Butterfly sponsored events.  Confused 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 12:58am
Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

We spent at least half of the tournament playing on only 1 table.  Matches are going to run long when this happens.  The floor was concrete, but at least wasn't slick (there were a few slick places), some times this is a big issue on concrete, but it was surprisingly good there.  Saturday was enough to make me worry about going back next year.  I'm getting too old for such long days, and it was an issue for me on Sunday.  I didn't recover fast enough, so I need to get in better shape.  It didn't help that our 4th player went AWOL in the middle of Saturday.  But that wasn't the tournaments fault.  It just meant we didn't get enough rest on Saturday.  4 days if you include practice on Thursday.

Other than that it was a pretty typical tournament, a few good wins and some losses to kids.  I liked the balls and tables, lighting where I played was good except for one court up against a column, and even then it wasn't that bad even for me. 

Next year?  I don't know yet, maybe I will go back, maybe not.  My other 2 teammates enjoyed themselves, so it is possible we will make a return appearance.  My only regret is not getting to watch some of the high tier events unfold.
i also didn't have any problems with slippage on the concrete. However, several courts had large cracks/trenches running through them that were a trip hazard.  During the tournament, my main complaint about the concrete was my feet and legs getting tired and sore.  Now, four days later, my knees still hurt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 7:38am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

i also didn't have any problems with slippage on the concrete. However, several courts had large cracks/trenches running through them that were a trip hazard.  During the tournament, my main complaint about the concrete was my feet and legs getting tired and sore.  Now, four days later, my knees still hurt.


Yeah, right there with you on the sore knees.  Another thing I'm not enjoying about getting older.  The recovery time is longer for me after playing so many matches on concrete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 hours 38 minutes ago at 8:29am
I wonder if attendance will become a Yogi Berra saying: Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 hours 2 minutes ago at 9:05am
It will be becoming even more crowd next year. So many person have already pre-registered next year Joola team. I agree with someone said above, Joola needs to think expanding playing halls and possibly reduce entry fees. There are not many west coast team. But for east coast team, almost everyone are joining including multiple Puerto Rico and Canada teams (They are very good and seriously underrated).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 hours 57 minutes ago at 10:10am
I suspect 'expanding the hall' might not be as easy as it sounds - most likely it's impossible to add only 20% more space, but instead it's more like you have to get twice as much space as they have today, and who knows what it will do to the costs.

But yes, getting more crowded, and at some point it might start scaring people away.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ttunderthesun21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 hours 42 minutes ago at 10:25am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

I suspect 'expanding the hall' might not be as easy as it sounds - most likely it's impossible to add only 20% more space, but instead it's more like you have to get twice as much space as they have today, and who knows what it will do to the costs.

But yes, getting more crowded, and at some point it might start scaring people away.    

Yeah probably some logistical and financial issues with expanding.  There is always some other show/event in the next hall over.  

I doubt they will be reducing entries, given how much money they make, and didn't they increase costs just last year?  I bet it will go up before it goes down anytime soon.  

I feel like I complain every year, but I sign up anyways XD.  Also as someone has mentioned above, they just don't have any competition, and people sign up so no real motivation to change/improve conditions.  

Only positive thing that's happened as far as I saw was a larger trophy for division winners LOL.  


Edited by Ttunderthesun21 - 20 hours 25 minutes ago at 10:42am
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Too many people attending, what a nice problem to have for the organizers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 hours 45 minutes ago at 2:22pm
Why can't the Gaylord resort start a multi million dollar expansion of their convention hall just for the benefit of NATT? If they start now, it should ready for the 2020 teams.

Edited by heavyspin - 16 hours 44 minutes ago at 2:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 hours 28 minutes ago at 2:39pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Why can't the Gaylord resort start a multi million dollar expansion of their convention hall just for the benefit of NATT? If they start now, it should ready for the 2020 teams.
Did you play on mat or concrete? What division were you playing?  I would think that with your weight, the concrete would b really hard on your joints.

I was in 6 and we were on concrete the whole time.  I'm not sure where the breaking point was for divisions to get on the red carpet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ttunderthesun21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 hours 4 minutes ago at 3:03pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Why can't the Gaylord resort start a multi million dollar expansion of their convention hall just for the benefit of NATT? If they start now, it should ready for the 2020 teams.
Did you play on mat or concrete? What division were you playing?  I would think that with your weight, the concrete would b really hard on your joints.

I was in 6 and we were on concrete the whole time.  I'm not sure where the breaking point was for divisions to get on the red carpet.

Division 2 and up get to play on the red carpet.  If you are d3 on the first day you play a couple matches on red carpet, but other than that, maybe late Saturday night?  We did that this year, when d1 finished up, we moved to the d1 tables to finish our last match Saturday night otherwise we would have been waiting for a while. 

note: We played in D4.  


Edited by Ttunderthesun21 - 15 hours 51 minutes ago at 3:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 hours 1 minutes ago at 3:06pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Why can't the Gaylord resort start a multi million dollar expansion of their convention hall just for the benefit of NATT? If they start now, it should ready for the 2020 teams.
Did you play on mat or concrete? What division were you playing?  I would think that with your weight, the concrete would b really hard on your joints.

I was in 6 and we were on concrete the whole time.  I'm not sure where the breaking point was for divisions to get on the red carpet.

We were division 7, averaging ~2000, and also concrete the whole time.
I think only the first twenty or so tables were red floor. I saw a few familiar faces whose team average was ~2100 playing on the red floor .. So my guess divisions 4-5 were borderline red floor.


Edited by notfound123 - 15 hours 58 minutes ago at 3:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 hours 28 minutes ago at 5:39pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Why can't the Gaylord resort start a multi million dollar expansion of their convention hall just for the benefit of NATT? If they start now, it should ready for the 2020 teams.
Did you play on mat or concrete? What division were you playing?  I would think that with your weight, the concrete would b really hard on your joints.

I was in 6 and we were on concrete the whole time.  I'm not sure where the breaking point was for divisions to get on the red carpet.

I played on concrete every match. At my weight, it's more damaging to the concrete.




Edited by heavyspin - 13 hours 10 minutes ago at 5:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Twiddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 13 minutes ago at 7:54pm
Playing on concrete floors, shadowy lighting, spending 2 hours at registration and many ties on one table means it was a ping-pong tournament. Yet each team paid nearly $1,000. to participate.
Table tennis isn't played under such conditions.
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I think we all agree that NATT and Joola get away with murder at the NA Teams because of a lack of competition.  The question is whether anyone can do anything about it.

It takes two things to put on a tournament of this magnitude: a sponsor willing to spend a lot up front; and a staff large enough and experienced enough to organize such an event.

Butterfly does appear to be sponsoring fewer big tournaments, which leave limited alternatives.  Paddle Palace and Nittaku mostly sponsor smaller stuff.  And Joola seems tied at this hips to NATT.  So we really don't have good alternative sponsors.

Part of the problem here is that NATT knows how much money they'll be making on the Teams.  If Butterfly or PP tried to sponsor a comparable tournament, they won't know in advance whether they'll make money or lose money.  That sort of uncertainty would make for very reluctant sponsors.

Then there is a question of staff.  NATT is the only year-round organization that runs big events.  For anyone else to do this would require a lot of volunteers and a really steep learning curve.  Very hard to do.

The reality is that NATT has a monopoly and it doesn't look to change any time soon.  If USATT were well run, they would be a lot more transparent about the process and finances of the Nationals and US Open, which would encourage competitors for those events.  As it is, USATT also seems to be locked at the hips to NATT.

This really is a rigged system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 hours 41 minutes ago at 8:26pm
I never did the Joola teams and each year it's a pleasure to read about it, like the nationals (did twice) or the us open (never did).
The T2 Diamond model is a success. If Joola teams management cannot afford to turn down applications for obvious reasons but can't afford doubling the size of the facility either, would it be a good idea to try applying the T2 model to better control the time factor with the current indoor acreage Big smile?
Such a brutal change would be very dangerous and us in table tennis like to evolve with sure steps. I read above that we should probably have East and West coast Joola team events. Maybe that is dangerous too if we do the same thing both sides but if we try the T2 model on the West coast 1st edition at least we'd get data and enthusiasm about a new way to do things that have proved solid elsewhere. Plane tickets from southern California to Portland or Seattle are not too expensive so we'd get the crowd from down there up here for sure. Forum members benfb, vince64 and their extensive northwest tt network of friends will assist, not because they like me, because they are competent, interested, always willing to help and enjoy being involved.

I can be really creative with other people's resources can't I? Embarrassed OK, it was just a random thought.

PS: I realize I forgot to mention that I point at Portland/Seattle as the best choice to better include the Vancouver, BC community.

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