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Performance enhancers taken by pros

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2016 at 10:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2016 at 11:16am
Originally posted by huri huri wrote:

Guys, I am a competetive bodybuilder-men's physique to be exact ....So I would say that my knowledge of PEDs is rather vast : ) I can honestly tell you, that in every sport where some degree of athleticism is required 90% of PRO athletes will use PEDs. That is just the reality. Will they get banned ? Only very little of them wil. Because drug tests are not actually drug test but IQ tests. Every single test for PEDs even the olympic level testing can be easily passed if the athlete is actually inteligent and knows what he is taking. Besides they hire consultants, gurus, chemists to help them handle the drugs. As for clenbuterol .. it is used as a fat burner ... It actually is the most efficient that exists, you can loose fat while retaining muscle mass. THat is the main usage of it and you can bet that is why DIma took it and no it deffinitelly was not from meat LOL :D As for meldonium, I am living in Slovakia ... and in a past we were part of CCCP. The stuff increases endurance, perriod.  There are many other drugs, which can be useful in table tennis. Such as DMAA which increases focus rapidly, also AMP citrate, then there is Ephedrine which is like much much much more stronger caffeine. There is GW-cardarine, which increases stamina rapidly, there is HGH which is rarely used by itself as it effect multiply with use of steroids. And there are many steroids, with pretty short half lives, which are used mainly for healing, not for actuall increase of muscle mass. There are also always new drugs, that only athletes know, and that are not banned yet, so they don't even need to hide them cause they are not banned yet. As for supplements, such as creatine or caffeine and any others, they work, but the effect is so so small that it wont make a difference ... so noone cares about them anyways .. 
 

Actually my PhD in Pharmacology and 30 years in medical reseasrch trumps your body building background.  Some of what you said is approximately accurate, some of it isn't.

There would be quite considerable safety concerns for  GW-501516 (cardarine).  Drugs in this class (PPAR receptor agonists) were introduced for therapy of type-2 diabetes, but a member of the same class was taken off the market because of cardiac tissues.  These drugs affect every cell in your body, they can produce heart enlargement, depletion of white blood cells and toxicity to liver and kidney.  It is pretty appalling that you can buy this as a "nutritional supplement".  Typical meatheads will think a little is good, so more is better, and drugs in this class have significant toxicity at high doses.  Also, there is a lot that is not known about these agents, and there is a good reason why this one is not approved by FDA.

DMAA is another amphetamine like compound, illegal in the US.  Like others in this class, like ephedrine, there are numerous reports of deaths from heart attacks during physical exercise, even in young people.  Drugs that are psychoactive have huge placebo effects when people are asked how they feel in other ways.  Here is a link that shows some of the ways unscrupulous manufacturers of "supplements" can continue to get away with selling stuff like this.  https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/dmaa-efficacious-but-is-it-safe/

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2016 at 11:24am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Does anyone know the effect of creatine with tt?

Creatine is only good for weightlifting. I was taking it for a good year or two.

First month is usually to accumulate it in your system and then from there on you will notice the difference, primarily in strength. I also gained 20lbs~ of water weight while on creatine. Your muscle will reuptake water at much higher rate so you have to hydrate yourself often otherwise it can result in headaches, constipation, pretty much anything related to dehydration as a side effect.

I don't recommend it for TT. Makes you slow, you sweat much more, and in long term can result in kidney damage due to high levels of creatinine production as a waste product. Although many studies refute it this and say creatine is safe. I monitored my BUN and urea levels in my blood and before and after creatine use I noticed a significant increase in creatinine so I stopped taking it.

"Creatinine, also a NPN waste product, is produced from the breakdown of creatine and phosphocreatine and can also serve as an indicator of renal function.[2] Creatine is synthesized in the liver, pancreas, and kidneys from the transamination of the amino acids arginine, glycine, and methionine. Creatine then circulates throughout the body and is converted to phosphocreatine by the process of phosphorylation in the skeletal muscle and brain. The majority of the creatinine is produced in the muscle. As a result, the concentration of plasma creatinine is influenced by the patient's muscle mass. Compared to BUN, creatinine is less affected by diet and more suitable as an indicator of renal function.
The measurement of creatinine concentrations in plasma and urine samples illustrates the filtration capacity of the glomerulus, also known as the glomerular filtration rate (GFR.) Creatinine is produced endogenously within the body and is freely filtered by the glomerulus. These characteristics make creatinine a useful endogenous marker for creatinine clearance. If the GFR is decreased, as is in renal disease, creatinine clearance via the renal system is compromised. The reduced GFR will then lead to an increase in plasma creatinine concentration. The measurement of plasma alone should not be used to assess renal function. Plasma creatinine levels may not be affected until significant renal damage has occurred. In addition, a plasma creatinine level that is within normal reference range does not equate to a normal functioning renal system."

Normally a jump in serum creatinine level is something to be concerned about, as you say it is how we compute the eGFR, but it can also increase with creatine supplementation, which is not really a normal dietary component (at least not a the kinds of levels you get in supplements).  So if there is no accompanying jump in BUN there is probably not a change in renal function.  The key thing there though is the word "probably".  


Who wants to take any risks with vital organs!  Therefore it is much much much better to be safe than sorry.  You were right to stop.

Also, the weight gain part is definitely real.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2016 at 11:29am
Bear in mind that several nootropics including the pyracetam derivatives that Jim T mentioned are on the WADA list, so  if you are actually competing at a level where you will be tested at some point, don't use them.  (Not too hard, in general they are very hard to find outside of former Soviet countries). 

I should also mention that there is not a single good controlled clinical trial that suggests that drugs in that class improve cognitive performance in normal humans (as opposed to patients with various dementias, and those folks are a special case, and even with them, results of clinical trials have been been conflicting).  They do show some good activity in models of epilepsy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2016 at 12:31pm
Thanks Baal for sharing your knowledge!

Recently a pharmacist gave me some B75 complex because I asked about wanting more energy, especially for training. Told him I wanted to replace Red Bull with something more healthy. I hope I did not get scammed, these supplements rarely work as advertised. Otherwise I'll have to continue just drinking RB if the B75 complex does not do the job....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2016 at 1:02pm
Certainly won't do any harm to your health.  There are theoretical reasons to hope that B75 could reduce blood levels of L-homocysteine, a product of sulfur amino acid metabolism known to be a risk factor for heart attacks and strokes.  However, clinical trials of B vitamin and folate supplements for this were quite disappointing in people who had elevated serum homocysteine.  Excess circulating levels of these substances are largely excreted unchanged in the urine.

With a normal diet you won't have a deficiency in these vitamins, so no reason to think that supplementation will have any effect on your "energy" level.  Bear in mind that the "recommendations" you read on the internet supporting use of this supplement rather mysteriously all come from people selling it.  Funny how that works.  There is also the fact that quite often the supplements don't even contain what they claim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2016 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Bear in mind that several nootropics including the pyracetam derivatives that Jim T mentioned are on the WADA list, so  if you are actually competing at a level where you will be tested at some point, don't use them.  (Not too hard, in general they are very hard to find outside of former Soviet countries). 

I agree - of course if you are actually competing at the events that have to comply with WADA, a lot of quite regular drugs are on that list. Like hydrochlorothiazide which is a rather mild diuretic and it is prescribed for me as a blood pressure control medicine - if I stop taking it I will feel it pretty fast, in a matter of several days. However, since WADA considers it a "masking agent" (nice name isn't it?) which was commonly used to quickly flush out any signs of using something really bad from athlete's body - then here you go.

Pretty soon, tea (which has a mild diuretic effect) and apples (one a day keeps doctor away - and we cannot have that, that's an unfair advantage) will be on WADA list. I am surprised that OTC painkillers aren't on it - poor guy from Kenia or Lesotho cannot afford two Aleves daily (or simply doesn't have access to them and has to chew on some local mumbo-jumbo baobab root) so it's an unfair advantage again. Not to mention that using drugs to change your body's chemistry so that your ache goes away - that's just wrong. If you have a headache or muscle ache, that is your problem, it is clearly your fault that your body is not ready for the Olympic Games or ProTour tournament.

Quote
I should also mention that there is not a single good controlled clinical trial that suggests that drugs in that class improve cognitive performance in normal humans (as opposed to patients with various dementias, and those folks are a special case, and even with them, results of clinical trials have been been conflicting).  They do show some good activity in models of epilepsy.


OMG... My wife is right, my mind is indeed slowly going down the drain. I wouldn't call it dementia, but in the last few years I certainly have noticed that my memory is not as good as it used to be, my concentration is lacking, and I need more time to do some some regular mental exercises I need for my software-related work. That's why I am taking nootropics sometimes - and in my case it definitely helps. I can only logically deduce from that that I must be in a pretty bad shape, since pyracetam only helps demented people (that's me!) or epileptics (not me... I fervently hope).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2016 at 1:42pm
I tend to think WADA are out of control but in general what they do is in the best interests of the health of the athletes.  There are a few things where it is incredibly dubious that it could improve performance (and might make it worse) that are on their list, and which have legitimate medical uses.  Diuretics are on the list because some people used them to make weights in sports like wrestling and boxing.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rhainur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2016 at 3:55pm
If you're looking for information on health/fitness supplements, I highly recommend www.examine.com

They try to summarize all existing in vivo research on supplements, so you can get an unbiased idea of their effectiveness, and with full citations provided in case you want to double check :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2016 at 5:26am



Just get this "drug sniffer" and live secure life.

Also, this device is a "candid pal" to tell you if the 70 dollar rubber sheet is a genuine Butterfly ptoduct or a hoax fraudulant

NIR spectroscopy, almighty sniffer to tell you whole truth.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2016 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:




Just get this "drug sniffer" and live secure life.

Also, this device is a "candid pal" to tell you if the 70 dollar rubber sheet is a genuine Butterfly ptoduct or a hoax fraudulant

NIR spectroscopy, almighty sniffer to tell you whole truth.   


Wacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2016 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I definitely think WADA are out of control.  There is a bunch of stuff where it is incredibly dubious that it could improve performance (and might make it worse) that are on their list, and which have legitimate medical uses.  Diuretics are on the list because some people used them to make weights in sports like wrestling and boxing.  But also one of the standard first-line therapies for high blood pressure, cheap and usually effective. 

There are medical exemptions you know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2016 at 8:17pm
Lest I was misunderstood, there are good reasons why diuretics are on the list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2016 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

This is just plain sad.  Anyone who knowingly takes performance enhancing drugs also knows that they are cheating.  And yes, I know that "cheating" is an emotive term, but quite frankly I can't see PEDs any other way.

Of course, the risk in stating my personal opinion is that I'm then accused of claiming the moral high ground.  So be it.

"I would prefer even to fail with honour than win by cheating."  Sophocles


+ 100!
{I wish I could jump on the Sharapova/PED topic here, quite popular last week in my medicinal chemistry world, but my Kaspersky/Chrome combo mostly prevents me these days from participation}

Tassie, Sad it is... Cheating it is... but also it is, unfortunately, harming yourself one way or the other, and that is just plain stupid. Happens at low levels of competition, too. Once, I played a guy in a single tournament three times... two times that is: first time I beat him 3:0 (he was rated about 200 rating points below me), the next time he beats me 3: 2 after a match when he was super agile, was jumping like a rabbit to every ball... and the next match did not happen because he forfeited it, although still present in the hall, because he was not feeling well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2016 at 3:11am
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Cheating it is... but also it is, unfortunately, harming yourself one way or the other, and that is just plain stupid. Happens at low levels of competition, too. Once, I played a guy in a single tournament three times... two times that is: first time I beat him 3:0 (he was rated about 200 rating points below me), the next time he beats me 3: 2 after a match when he was super agile, was jumping like a rabbit to every ball... and the next match did not happen because he forfeited it, although still present in the hall, because he was not feeling well.
LOL  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2016 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

This is just plain sad.  Anyone who knowingly takes performance enhancing drugs also knows that they are cheating.  And yes, I know that "cheating" is an emotive term, but quite frankly I can't see PEDs any other way.


Tassie, I am sure you do understand that naming something PED is completely arbitrary. In many many ways food is a PED, coffee is a PED, taking a painkiller in the middle of a long tournament is a PED.

Generally, what is exactly a difference between eating a big slab of juicy fatty red meat and drinking Red Bull from taking some 'illegal" booster drug?

- Both improve your performance
- Both do it short-term only
- Both damage your health
- Both are legal (non narcotics) and cost some money (not a lot as far as I heard)

There is - as far as I can see - one big difference. WADA decided that red meat is OK and booster is not.

All bureaucracies have ONE AND ONLY ONE objective - to continue their existence and expand their influence. As long as they do not do that to detriment of their public function, it can be tolerated. But there have to be an oversight (absent in case of WADA) and the bureaucracies usually do not like to restrain themselves. That's how I see it...

Read this classic:  http://www.jacklondons.net/apieceofsteak.html  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2016 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Tassie, I am sure you do understand that naming something PED is completely arbitrary. In many many ways food is a PED, coffee is a PED, taking a painkiller in the middle of a long tournament is a PED.
Yes, this I understand.  What I do not understand is why you want to muddy the waters when the topic is quite clear: "performance enhancers taken by pros".  Nobody is talking about eating a piece of steak.  What we are talking about is the non-medicinal use of drugs which are designed for medicinal purposes.

Diuretics have a valid place in medicine: some medical conditions require them for treatment.  Same for steroids, amphetamines, HGH, meldronium, etc., etc.  But these things do not have a place in sport.  Healthy people do not require any of these things apart from those which are produced naturally in the body.  As far as I can see, the only time this becomes an issue is if someone with a medical issue wants to play sport.

I use drugs all the time.  Every single day of my life.  When I play sport i use drugs.  They are PEDS; specifically they enhance my performance because I don't play very well when I'm dead.  I suspect WADA is not going to have an issue with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 1:58am
On the highly popular American television series The Walking Dead, Tassie52, there is a short scene where two of the Walking Dead, in various stages of decomposition, are playing table tennis on a table in a field in front of a forbidding looking prison.  One of the players looks to have been in life a forehand oriented looper, his opponent a combo playing long pips blocker/inverted hitter.  I'd estimate their ratings at, oh, maybe 1600-1650.

No one knows what caused these players' untimely demise.  It may have been a combination of steroids, amphetamines (speed), barbiturates, HGH, LSD, PCP, meldronium, or a number of other temporarily effective but deleterious in the long term performance enhancing substances.  At any rate, chances are quite good that they played at least at well dead as they probably played when they were poisoning their precious bodily fluids with foreign misunderstood (except perhaps by Baal) enhancers.

The moral:  listen to Sophocles; he was one very bright bloke.  And if you are going to abuse something, abuse your rubber(s).  The ITTF won't care, your rating may, if you know what you are doing, shoot through the ceiling, and you won't have to go through all that boring Faulkenberg and multiball and robot stuff.


Edited by berndt_mann - 03/20/2016 at 1:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

What we are talking about is the non-medicinal use of drugs which are designed for medicinal purposes.


There is no such thing. All drugs and everything that is ingested by humna body is taken for a vast variety of reasons which are almost never as clear cut.

Quote
Healthy people do not require any of these things apart from those which are produced naturally in the body.  As far as I can see, the only time this becomes an issue is if someone with a medical issue wants to play sport.


Very much incorrect. Almost all professional athletes have damaged their bodies and cannot play the sport at the level required of them without constant medicinal and therapeutic support.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote huri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 12:51pm
we were not part of it formally, but if you know thing or two ... we had comunism here, we couldn't do shit and the moment we wanted to do shit, soviet forces invaded prague ... so for me to say that we were a part of it is just natural cause in this context everything they did .. we did. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote huri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 1:04pm
I never said ... that they are harmless, nor legal. I just said that they can be used ... Cardarine is grouped along with Sarms, even though it s not a SARM technically. And to this day there is one out of hundres of studies that has found cardarine to be carcinogenic. And it was in the doses 1000 times exceeding the dosage used by humans who are actually taking it. It s used for a decade now and not a single taker reported any bad thing about it. It helps to improve health markers rapidlly, increases HDL cholesterol, decreases LDL, improved triglycerides, lost fat while retaining muscle mass and gained endurance. It s also taken by bodybuilders to counteract the effects of trenbolone. And no, you cannot buy this as a supplement here in SLovakia it s banned same as steroids. But it doesn't change the fact that it works and is used anyways. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 1:32pm
A few comments on the comments.  I was a kid when Prague was invaded in 1968, my family was living in Sweden.  It was a scary time.  I understood what Huri meant in his post.

Regarding WADA, their list is extensive. My job is directly related to drug discovery and I teach pharmacology to medical students, and a lot of what is on that list makes sense to me.  For example, I think it is reasonable for people to play sports without using amphetamine derivatives and anabolic steroids, or drugs/treatments that markedly change the number of red blood cells, or drugs that target autonomic nervous system. I forgot to mention that a lot of diruetics are included because they are "masking agents" that can make it harder to detects other drugs in urine (in addition to allowing rapid temporary water weight loss, which might allow wrestlers or boxers to get under the limit of a weight class).  I am closer to Tassie's point of view than JimT's.  Also, some of the compounds on the WADA list have a pretty narrow therapeutic window (which means that you can get some pretty bad toxicity with even slight over-dosing), or they have very poor safety profiles in general.

On the other hand, I noticed that WADA has all glucocorticoids on the banned list.  Those are the strongest anti-inflammatory drugs, and included things like prednisone and methylprednisone (Medrol).  Unless you have a very serious life-threatening disease, you would not take those drugs chronically.  Glucocorticoids are often used to treat sports injuries, like lower-back injuries.  You start with a big loading dose and taper off over the next 7-10 days, or sometimes they are injected directly into a joint.  I honestly don't know why WADA thinks this should be illegal but there is a blanket ban on them in the 2016 banned substances list without any other comment.  They are not in any sense of the word performance enhancers, this is standard treatment all over the world for certain kinds of conditions that occur in injured athletes (and regular people), and nobody sane would ever use them chronically (unless for example you have certain devastating kidney diseases, to mention one example) because of extreme side effects.  I just don't think the standard medical treatment for an injury is philosophically the same as performance enhancing.  

In short 2016 WADA guidelines very much limit "medicinal" support strategies that can legally be used by top athletes to maintain or improve their performance, so their support mainly comes from other areas -- physical therapy that sort of thing.  Russian track and field athletes are discovering this.

If you are not a top athlete and don't care what WADA thinks, well it is your body. But then I would ask why your athletic performance is that important to you that you would take drugs to improve it?



    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by huri huri wrote:

I never said ... that they are harmless, nor legal. I just said that they can be used ... Cardarine is grouped along with Sarms, even though it s not a SARM technically. And to this day there is one out of hundres of studies that has found cardarine to be carcinogenic. And it was in the doses 1000 times exceeding the dosage used by humans who are actually taking it. It s used for a decade now and not a single taker reported any bad thing about it. It helps to improve health markers rapidlly, increases HDL cholesterol, decreases LDL, improved triglycerides, lost fat while retaining muscle mass and gained endurance. It s also taken by bodybuilders to counteract the effects of trenbolone. And no, you cannot buy this as a supplement here in SLovakia it s banned same as steroids. But it doesn't change the fact that it works and is used anyways. 

In short: say NO to PEDs. 
Do not mess with them - people know that they can be bad for you, even though in actuality nobody really knows in full how bad they can be. Just stay away from this... whether you are a professional or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 1:53pm
Huri,  I understand why body builders would use cardarine, I'm just not sure it is a great idea.  Drugs in this class were originally developed as treatments for type-2 diabetes and they are effective in that context (and widely used now).  The risks with this CLASS of drugs include increased risk of bone fractures, retinal disease (macular edema), and possibly bladder cancer. The data on bladder cancer were actually based on studies in humans who took the drug, but as time has gone on that association has been challenged.  The risk seems pretty  low.  Indeed, studies on other members of the same class of drugs suggest lower rates of cancer overall on people taking these drugs! 

However, an unexpected risk in the whole drug class was heart failure, and hear attacks which was mainly seen in elderly people who were retaining water in response to the drug.  Personally I think that FDA badly over-reacted in terms of their reaction to use of this class in diabetic patients

On the other hand, people who are using PPAR gamma agents to reverse the unwanted effects of anabolic steroids are probably going to do it no matter what the risk.  Bodybuilders are kind of a strange group of people to begin with and they are willing to try almost anything.  They get into some strange and untested mixtures and the effects are unpredictable.  People who use anabolic steroids often have a big increase in number of red blood cells and that itself is a heart attack/stroke risk.  So now they are multiplying risks. 

Mad scientists using their own bodies as laboratories.  Not advisable.

And almost certainly pointless for table tennis.  

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote huri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 3:31pm
there were actually endurance athletes like cyclist, runners and so on who popped on cardarine when it was banned, so the endurance increase is real and if you are not playing table tennis just for fun ... it would be benefitial IMHO that s why I listed it . 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:



Some combinations of them are sold as "magic drugs" and often they are just some $hi^^y concoctions with some similar stuff thrown into it without checking whether the ingredients mix well or work at all. Making an actual nootropic is not as easy as buying pyrrolidone acetamide in bulk, adding some glucose and fruity things for taste and wrapping it up in some crappy collagen film...

Heck, I myself tried it and I noticed an improvement in my concentration at work. Nowadays when I go to a tournament - which alas doesn't happy very often lately - I take it day before and morning of the tournament. Sue me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by huri huri wrote:

there were actually endurance athletes like cyclist, runners and so on who popped on cardarine when it was banned, so the endurance increase is real and if you are not playing table tennis just for fun ... it would be benefitial IMHO that s why I listed it . 


I am not disputing people took it to try to increase their endurance.  Biochemically one could imagine it actually working the other way by depleting glycogen stores a bit (obviously depending on the type of athlete whether that is an issue or not).  I am a big believer in controlled clinical trials and am incredibly skeptical of anecdotal reports.  So I am very skeptical if it would have helped.  But I also don't reject it out of hand.  In any case, all of the PPAR ligands are banned now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

What we are talking about is the non-medicinal use of drugs which are designed for medicinal purposes.
There is no such thing. All drugs and everything that is ingested by humna body is taken for a vast variety of reasons which are almost never as clear cut.
Really?  If this is so, then explain to me why I live with an insulin pump?  I thought it was because the Islets of Langerhans in my body had ceased functioning and that without insulin I would cease functioning as well.  In other words, I'm using a drug for one and only one, very medicinal purpose.*

OTOH, explain why body building types and other "athletes" have been known to illegally access insulin and then inject it into their bodies because they believe it will help manipulate their muscle mass?**  These are people with a perfectly functioning pancreas, which produces all the insulin their body requires.  Strictly a non-medicinal use of a purely medicinal drug.  Is this not clear cut enough?



*  By the way, it's a PED.  My TT is much better when I'm alive than when I'm dead. Wink
**  The web will give you access to any number of bodybuilding sites with lots and lots of information about using insulin in this way.  For example, http://johndoebodybuilding.com/insulin-101/  (This is an hilarious site with lots and lots of complete misinformation: "Insulin can kill you quick. I’m talking about a dirt nap within a couple hours if you’re not careful."  Now if I could just find the emoticon for BS...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2016 at 9:23pm
I knew there were some crazy people out there, but wow... just wow.  
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