|
|
|
Plastic Balls -- Happy Innovation. |
Post Reply 
|
Page 123> |
| Author | |||
igorponger 
Platinum Member 
Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Third planet to the Sun Status: Offline Points: 2782 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Plastic Balls -- Happy Innovation.Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:19pm |
||
|
MESSAGE of 'THANK YOU'...
According to many people responses, the Plastic Balls do favour elder folk over the youngsters, for being easier to handle, some slower and less spinny. Thank you ever so much, Mr. Sharara. We have now got table tennis game more controllable with the plastic. QUOD ERAT FACIENDUM. Yours sincerely Igor NOVICK a rational blocker |
|||
 |
|||
|
100niTenis
Platinum Member
Joined: 02/13/2014 Location: Online Status: Offline Points: 2102 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:28pm |
||
|
Hahahahaha ...
|
|||
|
Blade, Rubbers, Shoes, Socks ...
|
|||
|
|||
|
DreiZ
Platinum Member
Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2528 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:29pm |
||
|
I don't think Sharara reads the forums...
 He's an "elder folk".Maybe leave a voicemail or email his assistant. |
|||
|
Stratus Power Defense AN 82g | H8 2.2 + Grass D.Tecs 1.2
Samsonov Force Pro BE AN 82g | H8 2.15 + Speedy Soft D.Tecs 2.0 Samsonov Force Pro BE FL 82g | H3 Neo 2.15 + Aurus Select 2.1 |
|||
|
|||
|
NextLevel
Premier Member 
Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 13130 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:59pm |
||
|
Igorponger seeks artist to draw his cartoon strip...
|
|||
|
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190 FH: Tibhar MX-K 2.1 B BH: Tibhar MX-K 2.1 R Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. |
|||
|
|||
|
bbkon
Premier Member
Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7300 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/02/2014 at 1:39am |
||
he must have a typewriter to make new rules, i love how people makes slurs about him
|
|||
|
|||
|
igorponger
Platinum Member
Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Third planet to the Sun Status: Offline Points: 2782 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:06pm |
||
|
http://ittf.com/press_releases/PR/PR1.asp?id=10
IMPORTANT NOTIFICATION -- No "dead line" for the balls of celluloid is still determined. The Cell to be a free choice for general use worldwide unless the Rule 2.3 THE BALL is revised someday. There is no promulgated attempt to change the rule as yet. |
|||
|
|||
|
Baal
Forum Moderator 
Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 13649 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:26pm |
||
|
From that press release, I noticed the following. "The ITTF has kept the levels of
specification for the approval of plastic balls as close as possible to the
specifications of celluloid balls. Some wider tolerances have been allowed for
an 18-months period to ensure best quality. This will ensure that the plastic
balls used in competitions will feel similar to celluloid balls, reducing
disruptions to the players."
This is obviously not true. It that was true, they would not have pressured manufacturers to make them larger. (A lot of the other statements in that press release have been debated to death and seem also to be lies but we already have lots of threads on those). The current Chinese seamed poly balls such as DHS clearly play differently, as pretty much everyone notes. This includes Igor, who occasionally claims that plastic balls are better for manly muscle men with superior athletic skills, and then says they are better for old people who are afraid of spin and speed, and is sometimes just incoherent. As for the three classes of people mentioned in the press release (people who like the idea, people who hate the idea, and people who go with the flow), I can see that there must be a group of people who like more expensive balls of poor quality. Mostly people who stand to make money on the deal. |
|||
|
|||
|
slevin
Premier Member
Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3624 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:31pm |
||
Did you say 'sometimes'? I admire your listening skills...  |
|||
|
Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787 |
|||
|
|||
|
the_theologian
Premier Member
Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3927 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:54pm |
||
|
Igor is a Googlebot guys.... probably an intern assignment
|
|||
|
Hayabusa Zi ST/FH:H3-50med/BH:GoldArc5-42.5-2.0
|
|||
|
|||
|
assiduous
Platinum Member
Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2592 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:44pm |
||
|
I don't agree with most of his stuff but still like him. I have some respect for all unorthodox thinkers.
|
|||
|
puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
|
|||
|
|||
|
the_theologian
Premier Member
Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3927 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:54pm |
||
Cheers, I feel the same. |
|||
|
Hayabusa Zi ST/FH:H3-50med/BH:GoldArc5-42.5-2.0
|
|||
|
|||
|
skip3119
Premier Member
Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8217 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:57pm |
||
=========================== He is a die-hard ponger, quite a character.
|
|||
|
skip3119
|
|||
|
|||
|
lineup32
Gold Member 
Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1208 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 5:27pm |
||
@ Igor: So according to Newton's 2nd law of motion lift should be the same for both the 40C and 40+ ball if they are the same weight, given that why do we see less lift with the new balls even though applied force is equal? Is it due to the the hardness of the plastic ball having less elasticity?
|
|||
|
|||
|
skip3119
Premier Member
Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8217 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 5:54pm |
||
|
Is there a video of Igorponger playing Ping Pong?
|
|||
|
skip3119
|
|||
|
|||
|
zeio
Premier Member
Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 7061 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 6:04pm |
||
|
Isn't it the other way? That due to the gravitational field strength the acceleration on 40mm and 40+ are the same, but because of the extra weight the downward force on the latter is higher than that on the former. On the other hand, the lift or more precisely drag on the 40+ should be higher due to the greater surface area.
Edited by zeio - 08/06/2014 at 6:20pm |
|||
|
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
|||
|
|||
|
berkeleydoctor
Silver Member 
Joined: 01/06/2010 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 682 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 6:06pm |
||
|
i heard the durability is horrible
|
|||
|
Defplay Senso V3 FL
FH: Something for looping BH: OX Long pips |
|||
|
|||
|
lineup32
Gold Member
Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1208 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 6:41pm |
||
the seamless is the same weight as the 40C if one ball is heavier then the other Newton's 2nd law does not apply. The 38MM and 40MM C ball per research had the same lift and they weighed the same. The 40C ball turned out to have a greater mangus effect because it was slower then the 38MM ball and took longer to travel over the table allowing the mangus effect to take hold while the 38MM ball was faster and did not hit the table. So basically the 40C and 40+ if they weigh the same should have the same lift and the 40+ would act very similar to the old 40C and have good topsin/sidespin/backspin but it would occur earlier due to air drag. Since it is losing velocity faster. This may be the reason the Nittaku Prem balls that are made with a new type of plastic material are getting a better response from players, they weigh the same , have similar lift and my guess have more elasticity then conventional plastic balls. This is a note from the researcher I emailed about the lift study and his response: My question to David was whether this effect should be the same between the new 40+ and older 40C ball: His reply below: August 4th 2014 at 10:21 This was surprising to me as well. As I played with the 38mm ball I found it more difficult to hit the other side of the table not yet realizing that the ball actually curves less. It is true that the 38mm ball has less wind resistance and can travel faster than the 40mm ball but for the same speed and spin, the 40mm ball will curve more. The magnus coefficient is greater. The explanation for this is that the 40mm ball has more surface area yet weighs the same as the 38mm ball. I am unfamiliar with the 40+ ball. But I assume that if the weight of the ball remains the same, the trend will continue. The magnus coefficient will be greater and they will curve more for the same amount of speed and spin. However, these results don’t show whether a larger ball will curve more during a match. It doesn’t show if the ball will be able to reach the speed or spin necessary to curve more than the smaller ones. In gameplay, it may be true that the 38mm ball curves (accelerates) more than the bigger balls in general because it travels at higher speed with more spin. I don’t know, though. One thing to note, though, is that if the ball travels at a slower speed, there is more time for the ball to curve/accelerate before it hits the other side of the table. The 40mm ball may be curving/accelerating less than the 38mm ball during gameplay but the 40 mm ball will appear to curve more because there is more time for it to curve. In gameplay, I feel that this is what is important. To summarize, yes the bigger the ball is, the slower it will be but the magnus effect is greater for the same amount of speed and spin. The 40mm ball can accelerate at the same rate as a 38mm ball that is faster and more spinny. On top of that, it will have more time to accelerate since it is traveling slower. I hope this makes sense but please ask for any clarifications.  |
|||
|
|||
|
zeio
Premier Member
Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 7061 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/06/2014 at 9:30pm |
||
|
Newton's 2nd law applies even if the two balls are of the same weight. The downward force on them would be the same this time around, though the magnus force and drag force ought to be different as the two values do not depend on weight but rather surface area. The 40mm ball exhibits a greater magnus effect primarily because it has a greater surface area in contact with the air for the magnus force to work on. While the larger ball remains longer in flight due to greater drag, the magnus force also gets reduced faster in the process as more spin increases the drag, but that may be offset by the greater moment of inertia.
I am not sure if the Nittaku Premium 40+ is the same weight, but from Baal's feedback it is certain to have a similar COR as current celluloid balls. |
|||
|
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
|||
|
|||
|
lineup32
Gold Member
Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1208 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/07/2014 at 1:34am |
||
I agree, that is what I said basically along with the guy from MIT also somebody on a thread showed the Nittaku Premium on a scale next to a 40C they were the same weight. the bottom line is that the various 40+balls to date seem hard they probably made from a low elastic plastic which may mean that no amount of extra force, new rubber or new blade design will make much difference in there performance. What you see is what you get! Lets hope Nittaku Premium 40+ becomes the standard including its new material.
|
|||
|
|||
|
zeio
Premier Member
Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 7061 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/08/2014 at 12:03am |
||
|
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
|||
|
|||
|
lineup32
Gold Member
Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1208 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/08/2014 at 1:34am |
||
|
ITTF created an exception for the seamed balls weight relative to the rule based on the fact that they found the weight difference minor I accept that and realize it has little significance relative to lift.
That's why my focus is on the hard plastic used to make these balls. What say you? |
|||
|
|||
|
zeio
Premier Member
Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 7061 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/08/2014 at 12:45pm |
||
|
The lift and drag of the 40+ ball, even if it is of the same material as 40mm ball, would likely be significant enough to call for attention, because both values grow quadratically as the radius increases. The 38mm(38.1mm) to 40mm(39.6mm) was roughly a .75mm increase, compared to the 40+(40.3mm), we are seeing another .35mm jump. That would be enough to cause a difference.
A possible reason the folks in the TT11 review find the magnus effect muted is because the lift can never grow as strong as the drag. And the more they grow, the greater they deviate. So any increase in lift is nullified by the increase in drag and weight. |
|||
|
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
|||
|
|||
|
lineup32
Gold Member
Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1208 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/08/2014 at 1:31pm |
||
So what does that statement mean to players using the new balls: Can they ever achieve a magnus effect the same or greater then the current 40C and if so how?
|
|||
|
|||
|
JacekGM
Platinum Member
Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2415 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/08/2014 at 10:30pm |
||
Yeah, me too.... But how do we determine who is the orthodox thinker?
|
|||
|
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
|
|||
|
|||
|
zeio
Premier Member
Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 7061 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/08/2014 at 11:39pm |
||
Probably not. The ball may be light, but there's more than meets the eye. The problem does not lie with the weight, or the mass to be precise. It has to do with the moment of inertia and how to overcome that. |
|||
|
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
|||
|
|||
|
bbkon
Premier Member
Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7300 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/09/2014 at 4:45am |
||
the problem is that ITTF wants a slow ball and companies try to make a heavier ball that will last if not people wont buy it but a heavier ball would be faster, thats why lighter balls seem to wobble at flight
|
|||
|
|||
|
Baal
Forum Moderator
Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 13649 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/09/2014 at 7:07am |
||
|
I think the weird ball flight is because too many are not round, at least in the boxes I have bought.
|
|||
|
|||
|
vanjr
Gold Member
Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1135 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/09/2014 at 7:19am |
||
|
With a scale with a precision of at least + or - 1 gram you really can't say anything about the weight. Need an accurate and reliable scale that weighs to at least 0.1 and probably 0.01 gram.
|
|||
|
|||
|
pingpongpaddy
Gold Member
Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1208 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/09/2014 at 7:22am |
||
|
When they break you saw them in half and check out the inside. If that is not smooth it would explain weird flight
|
|||
|
inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
|||
|
|||
|
Baal
Forum Moderator
Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 13649 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 08/09/2014 at 7:33am |
||
|
|||
|
|||
|
Post Reply
|
Page 123> |
 |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |
Topic Options
DreiZ wrote:
