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Playing with left hand for right handed people? |
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Alqa 
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 Topic: Playing with left hand for right handed people?Posted: 09/02/2013 at 2:54am |
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In short, is it possible for right handed players to play with their left hand in similar level as their right hand?
For the sake of keeping the thread about this topic, Let's assume those players can't use their right hands due injuries ( wrist, elbow etc ), and they put long hours of training with their left hand. |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 4:28am |
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It doesn't take that long to be OK with the off-hand (~200 diff maybe?). Of course if you're willing to put in much effort you can do more than just asymptotically approach right handed level since general skills will also increase.
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LUCKYLOOP
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 4:36am |
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I play 1200-1500 left handed without ever practicing only games/matches.
Knowledge of the game does it even though I don't have the same physical skills.
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Tassie52
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 7:58am |
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as·ymp·tote n. A line whose distance to a given curve tends to zero. An asymptote may or may not intersect its associated curve. [Ultimately from Greek asumpt  tos, not intersecting : a-, not; see a-1 +sumpttos, intersecting (from sumpiptein, sumpt-, to converge :sun-, syn- + piptein, to fall; see pet- in Indo-European roots).]as  ymp·tot ic (-t t k), asymp·toti·cal adj.as ymp·toti·cal·ly adv."asymptotically" ( as the adverbial form) tells us how, when, where or why something happens. Which means that AgentHEX is telling us that "you can do more than just approach right handed level as a line whose distance to a curve tends to zero since general skills will also increase." Thank you, AgentHEX. Perhaps next time in plain English?
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:04am |
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Was joke for another member, but still grammatically correct:
you can do more than just (gradually but surely approach) right handed level since general skills will also increase |
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ZApenholder
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:07am |
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I know one player, serious social player (brother of a seriuos player), had a car accident or something and was not able to play right handed any more. He has been playing left handed since then. Last time I saw him is around 5 years ago and about 5 years after his accident or so. He still doesn't look normal playing left handed, but is able to block both wings nicely, but very weak on his far FH side. Not sure how to compare the levels, but I would say half only. Some people are just more fluent with both hands, and some aren't. I know some SA national players will play with the other hand and still win against some lower rated players, but that is because of one nice "other hand" loop, and the ball doesn't come back. Edited by ZApenholder - 09/02/2013 at 8:13am |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:14am |
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Others might guess that a car accident srs enough to disable their hand might have something to do with that.
The footwork is more or less the same and most everything else is just mirrored so the diff is practice (per observation of inconsistency), not "skill" per se. Touch is the major hurdle but hardly insurmountable. Plenty of people have physical issues and come back barring actual disability; the struggle is more mental than anything. Mental issue isn't something that can be characterized, eg. some people just hate TT and won't ever play >1000; what's "wrong" with them? Edited by AgentHEX - 09/02/2013 at 8:16am |
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SmackDAT
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:39am |
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Yes, but it would be very unstable to start off with and you will struggle to reach your maximum level compared to your right hand with lack of wrist/arm.
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Alqa
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 11:55am |
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 One more word to my English vocab. |
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Alqa
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 11:57am |
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Thanks guys, I will give it a shot as my right wrist is not that good currently .. I will add some feedback about how it went ..
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stiltt
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 12:09pm |
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in drill practice it does not take long to adjust if we know where the ball comes as we know what to do; in matches the footwork is totally messed up and it is a pain. a definite switch will work overtime but the transition for matches will inflict a lot of frustration.
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Baal
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 12:20pm |
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Humans (and chimpanzees) almost always have a dominant hand, and it has been known for a long time that there is a strong genetic component to this. Some scientists have even identified some of the neural areas responsible for this (interestingly close to areas that regulate speech and language). This trait is related to lateralization in other brain functions. Sports scientists have actually studied handedness and footedness, and have asked if there is any degree of training that can lead to complete symmetry in skills. (Footedness is interesting because it is less related to social pressures to conform). They found that training can never lead to anything close to symmetry, and when the skills are objectively evaluated, the degree of bipedal skills are less than when players self-evaluate by a questionaire. They cite a study that said that the proportion of goals scored in World Cup soccer with the right foot is exactly equal to the proportion of right-footed players. The use of trained athletes is important because they spend a lot of time working on bipedal skills.
It is hard to imagine anyone using the off-hand coming within 200 points of their best level. A lot of the literature on this is found in this paper: Cortex Volume 45, Issue 5, May 2009, Pages 650–661 The bi-pedal ape: Plasticity and asymmetry in footedness
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Baal
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 12:26pm |
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While I was doing a bit more searching on this, to my amazement, I found an entire peer-reviewed scientific journal devoted to this kind of thing. It is called "Laterality: Assymetries in Body Brain and Cognition". It is published by Taylor and Francis, who are a legit publishing house.
You can find their home page here: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/plat20/current#.UiS77n8k8YI Plenty of interesting stuff just scanning through it a bit. |
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Baal
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 12:49pm |
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One last thing Alqa: Just in case your wrist problem is from TT. Hand surgeons will never operate on both hands at the same time unless they absolutely have to. This is because you need at least one good hand to do daily activities, like writing or wiping your a$$ after you go to the bathroom. So if you decide to play with off hand, make sure you don't injure it too!
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stiltt
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 12:57pm |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 3:21pm |
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I can't find it atm, but LGL had an interview where he talks about the CNT men used to play the women's team left handed for kicks. I've tried other hand and ~200 isn't too far off. Mostly soft shots are biggest prob. In RTS games where even minor control diff is critical, the perhaps best "foreign" (ie non-korean) player uses his non-dominant hand for mouse because it confers minor mechanical advantages on key position. I used to do it myself and it's not too dissimilar after few weeks, and sometimes still do it on non-tenkeyless to avoid the reach. |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 4:33pm |
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I'm not sure what's worse. Hand waving with something behind a paywall, or linking so lazy it doesn't matter anyway. BTW, lateralization as it relates to physical symmetry is hardly as definitive as you seem to pose here. |
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smackman
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 4:58pm |
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Baal
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 6:46pm |
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Agent HEX, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about on this. By "this" I refer to lateralization of brain function or for that matter, table tennis. Edited by Baal - 09/02/2013 at 6:59pm |
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glanden.zheng
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 6:57pm |
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I remember watching a documentary where this club in China specialises in left-hand training, where Guo Yue and Wang Nan came from. So using your non-dominant hand to achieve a high level is definitely possible.
Also, I forgot his name but this paralympian from the Chinese team from Shandong came to Sydney here around a month ago to participate in a training camp my coach had. He lost his right arm completely at war, after around 5/6 years of professional playing. He's now retired, but after that incident he started playing with his left hand and was no. 3 in Olympics last year. I think his surname is Li
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ZApenholder
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 7:03pm |
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Guo Yue and Wang Nan are both left handers (dominant hand) The club they are from has many left handers going through it ranks into CNT, but it is not a "left handed" club. So I think these example about non-dominant hand is not accurate. PS, it is normal in Chinese culture to train kids to write right handed, even if they are left handed. |
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Baal
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 7:14pm |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PUmRWmfXi8
Match of Zhang Yining in 2008 defeating men's world ranked #53 Lucjan Blaszczyk . Our current US national champion once got to play with her, just before she retired. He is playing a bit better now than he was then, but he told me he couldn't get more than 6 points in a game and he had no chance whatsoever. I have watched an out of practice former Chinese province women's team member (Wang Huijing) defeat US men's team member Mark Hazinsky and I have watched her annihilate our current men's national champion many times--after he had won that title the first time. She was his coach until he moved to California. Anybody want to bet whether Zhang Jike could defeat the top Chinese women playing left handed? Do you think CNT players can go into a match against a male player ranked 100 in the world and win with their off hand? You really believe that? Really? Edited by Baal - 09/02/2013 at 7:15pm |
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glanden.zheng
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 7:26pm |
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I know they are both dominant, I'm just saying the club will often train kids to be "jia zuo shou", which means "fake left hand" The second example is definitely accurate though, I've talked to him before and he did say that he was right handed, and he had to re-learn how to write, etc.
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Baal
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Posted: 09/02/2013 at 8:33pm |
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I found this paper on what happens after amputations. The authors think there is some rewiring of brain after that. Plenty of evidence for that kind of thing in animals like racoons, although not so much related to handedness. This is probably behind a paywall but you can see the abstract. (I have access to this kind of thing because I teach neurophysiology to medical students and graduate students at a large university). It is relevant to Glanden's remark about a player recovering some function after no longer being able to use his dominant hand. Very plausible that he could get pretty good if he was super top level to begin with. After all, he didn't forget how to see spin or move or anticipate, etc. etc.. But never very close to his original very high level because he won't have the same touch. None of this matters for Alqa and his wrist injury, since as soon as he gets better he will presumably return to his dominant hand.
Neurorehabil Neural Repair. 2011 Sep;25(7):680-4. doi: 10.1177/1545968311404242. Epub 2011 Apr 9. Enhanced left-finger deftness following dominant upper- and lower-limb amputation.SourceDepartment of Neurology, Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences, Bethesda, MD 20814-4799, USA. AbstractBACKGROUND:After amputation, the sensorimotor cortex reorganizes, and these alterations might influence motor functions of the remaining extremities. OBJECTIVE:The authors examined how amputation of the dominant or nondominant upper or lower extremity alters deftness in the intact limbs. METHODS:The participants were 32 unilateral upper- or lower-extremity amputees and 6 controls. Upper-extremity deftness was tested by coin rotation (finger deftness) and pegboard (arm, hand, and finger deftness) tasks. RESULTS:Following right-upper- or right-lower-extremity amputation, the left hand's finger movements were defter than the left-hand fingers of controls. In contrast, with left-upper- or left-lower-extremity amputation, the right hand's finger performance was the same as that of the controls. CONCLUSIONS:Although this improvement might be related to increased use (practice), the finding that right-lower-extremity amputation also improved the left hand's finger deftness suggests an alternative mechanism. Perhaps in right-handed persons the left motor cortex inhibits the right side of the body more than the right motor cortex inhibits the left side, and the physiological changes induced by right-sided amputation reduced this inhibition. |
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tt4me
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Posted: 09/03/2013 at 2:03am |
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I am right handed. I broke my wrist and had it in a cast so I couldn't play foot ball. While I was waiting for my right wrist to heal I learned to play basement hard bat ping pong left handed. Even after my right wrist healed I continued to play hard bat TT left handed and became the best in my high school. I continued to play left handed until I stopped in college. What is different from other cases is that I never had play ping pong at all. I had never played right handed.
After many decades without playing TT I started playing again but I started playing right handed. However, I don't think I would have much trouble learning how to play left handed again. The foot work and ping pong savvy is all the same. |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 09/03/2013 at 5:08am |
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I'm talking about the fact that lateralization is hardly simple, esp given that it seems to differ between left and right handedness in the first place: http://www.utdallas.edu/~tres/neuroII/lai.pdf If it were that trivial, there would be no need for these studies nevermind a journal in the first place. |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 09/03/2013 at 8:45am |
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200 pts means that you think your off hand has a low but realistic chance of beating your regular hand. Sometimes, we forget this.
Edited by NextLevel - 09/03/2013 at 8:45am |
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Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 09/03/2013 at 9:22am |
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Generally upsets happen when one player is performing above their level and other below theirs (or in less common cases some kind of stylistic mismatch). It's not inconceivable that someone on a bad day (tired, sick, etc) can be beaten by some disadvantaged version of themselves on a good day.
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Baal
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Posted: 09/03/2013 at 9:23am |
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This is actually hilariously true. This pretty well dispenses with certain troll-like comments on this thread, and by extension many others on other threads.
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 09/03/2013 at 9:48am |
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I hope for the sake of academia they have higher expectations of arguments than this.
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AgentHEX wrote:
