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Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand?

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Topic: Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand?
Posted By: cntcasey
Subject: Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand?
Date Posted: 01/12/2010 at 9:16pm
Why would a person use a Chinese forehand?



WHy would a person use a Euro Forehand?


Is equipment the only reason why a person would have a Chinese forehand as to a Euro forehand?


See link as an example

http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/06-09.html - http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/06-09.html





Replies:
Posted By: Fruit loop
Date Posted: 01/12/2010 at 10:16pm
European technique generally has more back issues because of the more low to high technique. Euro styles back movement is a more upward movement (shoulders drop down) whereas the chinese style rotates around the hips and has less shoulder dip.

Chinese rubber also requires more of a grazing ball contact to generate spin because of the tacky topsheet, therefore the longer arm action to keep the ball on the bat longer to generate the spin via leverage.
European softer rubbers or tenergy style rubbers use a mixture of sponge and topsheet to generate spin. Notice how maze hits a lot more into the ball.

Please feel free to disagree =] It's only my opinion.


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Timo Boll Spirit FL
Dr Evil ox both sides.


Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 01/12/2010 at 10:23pm
@ Fruit loop:

Am I right to assume that your FH is Euro while your BH is Chinese style?


Posted By: Fruit loop
Date Posted: 01/12/2010 at 10:26pm
Other way around, i think.

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Timo Boll Spirit FL
Dr Evil ox both sides.


Posted By: cntcasey
Date Posted: 01/12/2010 at 10:27pm
So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?


Posted By: Fruit loop
Date Posted: 01/12/2010 at 10:31pm
I found that i bottomed out most softer rubbers and when i used tenergy the ball slipped off until I adjusted and hit through into the sponge.

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Timo Boll Spirit FL
Dr Evil ox both sides.


Posted By: saif
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 1:19am
Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?
You can do it fine provided that topsheet is grippy, thick and overall higher throw.


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Tibhar Samsonov Alpha FH: Grip-S Europe BH: Rakza7 soft
Victas Koji Matsushita FH: Tenergy 80 BH: Feint long III
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Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 1:34am
I wrote this in the other thread: (same topic starter)
It's the first time I came to think about back problems and loss of power in maze and boll technique and I find the topic fascinating (just like the clip above). can't wait to read more comments.


it seems to me that  m maze has a lag between the torso rotation and the hips rotation. Same with Boll: the hips start and give momentum to the torso; the torso goes too fast and the hips catch back. that has to stress something really badly at the lower back level.

In ma long's loop the whole body rotates together in harmony.

that could explain the back problems; at least it's the only thing I can think about.

But again it is so cool to see the acceleration process in ML's loop. it is SOOOO FLUID!!!!!! no power is wasted in the way and everything goes into paddle's speed.




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Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 1:52am
so basic answer is when dissecting the whole stroke, if one element is not a fluid continuity of the precedent then there is loss of power.

in ma long's fh loop he starts slow and finishes fast. that's the secret of power. every element of the stroke is inheriting speed from the precedent with a minimal waste in the process and some speed is added up at each level.

maze tries to go super fast from the beginning. so the hips go super fast (thanks to a fast weight transfer between legs) while the torso has not started; then the torso starts (already some power is lost there); then we have the impression that the torso is pulling the hips (exaggerating). Then there is that forearm + wrist snap that I am  not so sure about...looks like the throw of a stone to me and I have been thinking it's right a thing to do and I am again wondering....

how about that: the core is not controlling the whole stroke in maze's loop while the core is controlling EVERYTHING in ma long's loop.

It's so hard to explain in simple words such a complicated stroke.

a baseball pitcher throws a fast ball starting slow and finishing fast. Is that a good analogy?



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Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 2:09am
Originally posted by Fruit loop Fruit loop wrote:

European technique generally has more back issues because of the more low to high technique. Euro styles back movement is a more upward movement (shoulders drop down) whereas the chinese style rotates around the hips and has less shoulder dip.

Chinese rubber also requires more of a grazing ball contact to generate spin because of the tacky topsheet, therefore the longer arm action to keep the ball on the bat longer to generate the spin via leverage.
European softer rubbers or tenergy style rubbers use a mixture of sponge and topsheet to generate spin. Notice how maze hits a lot more into the ball.

Please feel free to disagree =] It's only my opinion.
 
I use to think the same way about Chinese rubber and just "grazing" with the topsheet before I started getting coaching... turns out thats completely wrong.  You must hit hard enough to penetrate into the hard sponge and use the sponge and topsheet together.  When done in harmony, you hit in the ball into the sponge at 80-90 degrees and begin to naturally followthrough which closes your blade along with some wrist movement.  The tack will cause the ball to stick or "dwell" as your blade closes and there enlies the high control factor.  Then you catapult the ball forward to where you wanna go.  Basic simple description Chinese stroke loop vs no spin.  Of course theres much more to the stroke as well but it would take ages to describe.  But i'll tell you one thing... once you figure it out... you'll know the true power of Chinese rubbers.  Massive spin, massive speed, minimal power output from you.


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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: Fruit loop
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 2:20am
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by Fruit loop Fruit loop wrote:

European technique generally has more back issues because of the more low to high technique. Euro styles back movement is a more upward movement (shoulders drop down) whereas the chinese style rotates around the hips and has less shoulder dip.

Chinese rubber also requires more of a grazing ball contact to generate spin because of the tacky topsheet, therefore the longer arm action to keep the ball on the bat longer to generate the spin via leverage.
European softer rubbers or tenergy style rubbers use a mixture of sponge and topsheet to generate spin. Notice how maze hits a lot more into the ball.

Please feel free to disagree =] It's only my opinion.
 
I use to think the same way about Chinese rubber and just "grazing" with the topsheet before I started getting coaching... turns out thats completely wrong.  You must hit hard enough to penetrate into the hard sponge and use the sponge and topsheet together.  When done in harmony, you hit in the ball into the sponge at 80-90 degrees and begin to naturally followthrough which closes your blade along with some wrist movement.  The tack will cause the ball to stick or "dwell" as your blade closes and there enlies the high control factor.  Then you catapult the ball forward to where you wanna go.  Basic simple description Chinese stroke loop vs no spin.  Of course theres much more to the stroke as well but it would take ages to describe.


Obviously you need to use the sponge as well but it's less extreme than softer european style rubbers.


-------------
Timo Boll Spirit FL
Dr Evil ox both sides.


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 2:24am
Just as extreme as the Euro rubbers.  The more sponge you use, the more power, spin.  The tack is just an extra helper to add EVEN more as well as more control.  Big%20smile

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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 3:53am
does anyone have any good vids for the CHINESE FH, not games, just practice, training or drills?

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SFP BE FL 82g | H3 Neo 2.15 + FTL | Aurus Select 2.1
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TB ALC ST 84g | 2x Rozena 2.1

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Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 3:54am
I actually think its required to have even more sponge penetration with chinese rubbers.  Rack is absolutely correct on how to hit with chinese rubbers as we both have the same coach.

For most of the basic chinese strokes, you can use euro rubbers to hit.  preferably that they are as hard as possible.  even with a low throw, all you have to do is adjust the angle of the face.  of course it wont be as effective as using chinese rubber but possible.




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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: fortran2003
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 4:15am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

[/QUO


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 5:07am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

does anyone have any good vids for the CHINESE FH, not games, just practice, training or drills?

http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/10-09.html - http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/10-09.html

looping vs topspin


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: tomas.gt
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 5:37am
Imo, with chinese slower rubber you need to backswing more behind you in order to get the ball into the sponge properly, while the tackiness gives you nice spin with this stroke. Low speed and tackiness give you more dwell and good spin.  Euro/jap rubbers are faster (and softer) and to impart good spin on the ball you need to "carry the ball in the sponge" for some time, so you backswing down, go more up while holding the ball in the sponge.
 
In addition, chinese topsheet gives the possibility of the brush loop. Nevertheless, for every powerful stroke you need to get the ball into the sponge. The only difference is HOW you do that.
 
Problem occurs with chinese rubber with soft slow(dead)sponge. That is why we dont have german esn supersoft sponges under traditional chinese topsheets, even though the esn sponges are fast.


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Kokutaku Bishu no.1 ST - H3N red , BTfly Spinart 2.1 black


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 6:49am
Nothing has to be so Black and white, there is plenty of Grey in the middle. IMO the template was set for a difference in stroke play years ago, when the Chinese could only play with slower tackier Chinese rubbers, so their stroke play evolved around this, also they came second to using speed glue. I think that arguments over which is a superior technique are not applicable, China is the dominant nation with most players, whatever technique they employ is going to be successful. They still managed to lose to superior European teams twice (Hungary and Sweden) dispite having more than 100 times the population of Sweden. If it was not for the Swedes, they would still be flat hitting and chop blocking.

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: Imzadim
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 7:27am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I wrote this in the other thread: (same topic starter)
It's the first time I came to think about back problems and loss of power in maze and boll technique and I find the topic fascinating (just like the clip above). can't wait to read more comments.
it seems to me that m maze has a lag between the torso rotation and the hips rotation.
Same with Boll: the hips start and give momentum to the torso; the
torso goes too fast and the hips catch back. that has to stress
something really badly at the lower back level.
In ma long's loop the whole body rotates together in harmony.
that could explain the back problems; at least it's the only thing I can think about.
But
again it is so cool to see the acceleration process in ML's loop. it is
SOOOO FLUID!!!!!! no power is wasted in the way and everything goes
into paddle's speed.






Your analysis of Maze's loop is pretty good. I have been studying these videos as well.

There's one point I think you are missing, though:
What you call a loss of power is actually a gain of power. What he is doing is something similar to a "recoil" effect.

The first thing he does is he starts with the legs and instead of the typical lefty forehand instance he places his left in front of his right leg. This creates tension since he starts rotating his hips back and the body wants to come back (like a slingshot).
Try it your self right now. Instead of putting your right leg behind (assuming you are right handed) place your right leg in front and rotate the hip to the right. You'll feel how the body, the hips and the legs want to come back to their original position.
Now he just relaxes his arm down and proceeds to wind back his body. He starts from down to top like an spiral, so the speed multiplies as the whole body recoils. Then the relaxed arm follows the body like an elastic band pulled forward by the body motion.

Basically each rotation is adding up to create a very fast and powerful motion that its followed by the additional wrist action that he adds (with some side-spin at the end as well).
The speed and spin generated is so big that there's no need to wind back too much and this helps a bit by making the stroke shorter as well as the preparation time needed to hit the ball.

I also agree that this can hurt their back since there's so much going on. On the other hand, the Chinese stroke requires a lot of arm motion and this can add a lot of stress on the elbow/shoulder.

I don't think either stroke is better or worst. It probably depends more on your body type. But the Chinese stroke has a nice "simplicity" about it that probably makes it more consistent.


Posted By: saif
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 8:00am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Nothing has to be so Black and white, there is plenty of Grey in the middle. IMO the template was set for a difference in stroke play years ago, when the Chinese could only play with slower tackier Chinese rubbers, so their stroke play evolved around this, also they came second to using speed glue. I think that arguments over which is a superior technique are not applicable, China is the dominant nation with most players, whatever technique they employ is going to be successful. They still managed to lose to superior European teams twice (Hungary and Sweden) dispite having more than 100 times the population of Sweden. If it was not for the Swedes, they would still be flat hitting and chop blocking.
+1
Perfect execution, good footwork, intelligent strategy and overall better physical and mental fitness is the ultimate factor for success. Chinese players excel in these, that is why they are dominating.


-------------
TBS FH & BH: T05fx
Tibhar Samsonov Alpha FH: Grip-S Europe BH: Rakza7 soft
Victas Koji Matsushita FH: Tenergy 80 BH: Feint long III
https://www.facebook.com/groups/5439549367/


Posted By: cntcasey
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 6:28pm
I also agree that this can hurt their back since there's so much going on. On the other hand, the Chinese stroke requires a lot of arm motion and this can add a lot of stress on the elbow/shoulder.

I don't think either stroke is better or worst. It probably depends more on your body type. But the Chinese stroke has a nice "simplicity" about it that probably makes it more consistent.


So If a new player was trying to decide what school of thought to adopt Chinese or European? What would be the recommendation?

I am 6'3 260 and have natural power from playing many years of baseball and weight lifting. Would I do better using the Chinese approach, or the European approach?


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:


So If a new player was trying to decide what school of thought to adopt Chinese or European? What would be the recommendation?

I am 6'3 260 and have natural power from playing many years of baseball and weight lifting. Would I do better using the Chinese approach, or the European approach?

I suppose it comes down to personal preference.  For me, it is because I want to emulate WLQ because he's my fav player.

Chinese stroke does require you to fully execute every single stroke almost perfectly.  It requires a bit more work and doesn't work for people with bad form.


-------------
Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: cntcasey
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 6:36pm
Chinese stroke does require you to fully execute every single stroke almost perfectly.  It requires a bit more work and doesn't work for people with bad form.

Can you explain why it requires more work?


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 7:09pm
I think that the biggest myth is that Chinese somehow work harder at technique, so being 'superior' It is true though that the pyramid is China is bigger, so they get more of a cream coming through.

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: Imzadim
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

I also agree that this can hurt their back since there's so much going
on. On the other hand, the Chinese stroke requires a lot of arm motion
and this can add a lot of stress on the elbow/shoulder.

I don't think either stroke is better or worst. It probably depends
more on your body type. But the Chinese stroke has a nice "simplicity"
about it that probably makes it more consistent.So If a new player was trying to decide what school of thought to adopt Chinese or European? What would be the recommendation? I am 6'3 260 and have natural power from playing many years of baseball and weight lifting. Would I do better using the Chinese approach, or the European approach?


Unless you want to emulate wang liqin I think you could benefit from your body strength and size and use an European stroke.
In other words, if your body tends to be more powerful than quick I think the Eurpean stroke could fit you better.

I would make that decision based on what kind of coaching you can get, though. If you have only access to coaches with a chinese influence you might be better learning the chinese stroke.
In a sense both strokes use body rotation and you should learn this no matter what.



Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 01/13/2010 at 7:55pm
Yep choose according to what you like and what coaching is available to you.  Also choose based on what type of equipment you seem to enjoy using... tacky or non tacky.  It's all personal preference like shakehand and penhold.  Whatever feels more natural to you.  As one of the Chinese coaches said... it doesn't matter what style you use... in the end both styles are striving for the same goal and will be able to reach it.  Both styles have benefitted from each other.

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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: Fruit loop
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 12:51am
I now understand where i went wrong in my description. What I really meant was that with a euro stroke you hit through the sponge more directly and into the blade. Whereas the chinese stroke should rarely ever 'hit the blade' if this makes sense.

I also disagree with needing a coach for a certain type of stroke. I've taught myself and havn't had any issues. (No one uses chinese rubber at my club.)


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Timo Boll Spirit FL
Dr Evil ox both sides.


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 4:08am
Originally posted by Fruit loop Fruit loop wrote:

I now understand where i went wrong in my description. What I really meant was that with a euro stroke you hit through the sponge more directly and into the blade. Whereas the chinese stroke should rarely ever 'hit the blade' if this makes sense.

I also disagree with needing a coach for a certain type of stroke. I've taught myself and havn't had any issues. (No one uses chinese rubber at my club.)

Still wrong my friend LOL

And yes you need a coach for this stroke.  I've never seen someone who has good technique and form without a coach for this type of stroke.


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: Fruit loop
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 9:07am
So you're saying that in essence I'm totally wrong in my analysis? I was trying to be very generic for a player that doesn't understand properly. You can use both styles of rubbers for the same shots. (which require a lot more penetration of the sponge!)

I also feel my technique is quite good and I've used chinese rubbers for maybe 7 months of my 2 years of play. I've never had technique coaching given no one plays this style at my club.


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Timo Boll Spirit FL
Dr Evil ox both sides.


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 2:07pm
From the videos with bob - I think it's pretty safe to say that Fruit Loop is very good for only having played two years... What's more amazing is that he's attained that level of play without a coach.
 
Bravo.
 
I'm not at a level where I can criticize your technique.


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Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Fruit loop Fruit loop wrote:

I now understand where i went wrong in my description. What I really meant was that with a euro stroke you hit through the sponge more directly and into the blade. Whereas the chinese stroke should rarely ever 'hit the blade' if this makes sense.

I also disagree with needing a coach for a certain type of stroke. I've taught myself and havn't had any issues. (No one uses chinese rubber at my club.)
 
The part where you say the chinese stroke should rarely ever hit the blade is not true either.  Sometimes you hit the blade alot.  Sometimes you don't.  Depends on the shot you're trying to do.  As for the coaching part... I personally know a few players who can "use" chinese rubber very nicely without coaching.  However, their improvised strokes are no where near maximizing what the rubbers capabilities nor are they using their own "power" correctly.  You can probably get away with these improvised strokes up to about 1800-2000 and still stay/win in a game.  However with levels above that where power, speed, spin, penetrating power truly matter because everyone can block/counter like madmen (at least at my club), improvised strokes won't generate enough of all 3 to be effective agaist players of that level.  Due to that, your overall ceiling of development is lowered due to all the bad habits you now have in muscle memory which will be ultra hard to unlearn and learn properly.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: AgentSmith
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 6:36pm
I'm not by any means a superb TT player.  I've only played for a few years.  I'm really not that good (but I enjoy it).  I was very good at baseball, however, and played division I college baseball as a pitcher.  One lucky friend of mine even made a pro-ball roster (though I don't believe he ever played in a game). 

We had pitching coaches, batting coaches, etc.  Some of the guys that end up coaching were very good players... but I have to say that the only thing they were really good for were producing mass numbers of people with the same cookie cutter style.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I never learned anything from them... but by no means did I need them.  Pretty much every skill I had was self taught. 

Now, TT may be a bit different.  With pitching, there is a large benefit to having a unique form, and there are plenty of ways to get your ball to go fast and/or break sharply.  Not to mention, there is a much larger physical component that relies on your muscles. Table Tennis is probably a little bit more mechanical, where the physics heavily favor specific approaches... but I think a lot of the same principles in my example might apply.

Doing something different than other people can definitely be an advantage, and innovation only occurs through unique ideas and and individual development. 

I don't necessarily disagree that most people would heavily benefit from a coach (I probably would)... but for some people it can just lead to unnatural feeling movements that only make them worse (I've seen a lot of good ball players fall prey to this)... and you'd be surprised just how good you can get with your own techniques..  This holds true for a lot of sports, and I'm sure it holds true in TT as well..


Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?
 
the ball ends up slipping and dies into the net without much force. it's all about the sponge for those suckers...


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www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis
Timo Boll Spirit FL
H3 Blue Sponge Black FH
Tenergy 64 Red BH



Posted By: Imzadim
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Fruit loop Fruit loop wrote:

.I also disagree with needing a coach for a certain type of stroke. I've taught myself and havn't had any issues. (No one uses chinese rubber at my club.)

Not everybody can coach themselves (most can't!). Kudos to you for being able to do just that, but in general, I would recommend to use a style that matches what you coach can teach you better. For example, if I was a penholder I would probably prefer a penholder teacher, etc.


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?
 
the ball ends up slipping and dies into the net without much force. it's all about the sponge for those suckers...
 
Bingo Big%20smile.  Either that or they think all they have to do is "graze" so its all spin but no real power.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by AgentSmith AgentSmith wrote:

I'm not by any means a superb TT player.  I've only played for a few years.  I'm really not that good (but I enjoy it).  I was very good at baseball, however, and played division I college baseball as a pitcher.  One lucky friend of mine even made a pro-ball roster (though I don't believe he ever played in a game). 

We had pitching coaches, batting coaches, etc.  Some of the guys that end up coaching were very good players... but I have to say that the only thing they were really good for were producing mass numbers of people with the same cookie cutter style.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I never learned anything from them... but by no means did I need them.  Pretty much every skill I had was self taught. 

Now, TT may be a bit different.  With pitching, there is a large benefit to having a unique form, and there are plenty of ways to get your ball to go fast and/or break sharply.  Not to mention, there is a much larger physical component that relies on your muscles. Table Tennis is probably a little bit more mechanical, where the physics heavily favor specific approaches... but I think a lot of the same principles in my example might apply.

Doing something different than other people can definitely be an advantage, and innovation only occurs through unique ideas and and individual development. 

I don't necessarily disagree that most people would heavily benefit from a coach (I probably would)... but for some people it can just lead to unnatural feeling movements that only make them worse (I've seen a lot of good ball players fall prey to this)... and you'd be surprised just how good you can get with your own techniques..  This holds true for a lot of sports, and I'm sure it holds true in TT as well..
 
In TT, usually the unnatural moments feel unnatural because if you're self taught, you've hammered your own strokes into your muscle memory so the correct proper strokes don't feel natural which is why many coaches like to start on little kids.  No unnautral bad habits to get rid of before you program them correctly and the correct way becomes their natural way because they don't know any other way.  After you hammer bad habits to yourself... a one step easy learning experience becomes a multistep step of unlearn everything from your muscle memory and try to relearn correctly with bad habits creeping in the middle of your learning disrupting your every move.  Makes it 10x harder when you have to reprogram everything from strokes, to bad footwork, to timing one at a time then try to reassemble everything back together and make it work in harmony without any of the old stuff creeping back in.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?
 
the ball ends up slipping and dies into the net without much force. it's all about the sponge for those suckers...
 
 ...its all spin but no real power.
 
that's called a stinky!LOL hard to deal with those. very annoying when it's done by a guy who kind of misses his bh loop and does that as a result :)
deadly like a nun's fart.

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forum_posts.asp?TID=82031" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback
HTTP://ROSSLEIDY.COM" rel="nofollow - Treat Yourself


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 01/14/2010 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?
 
the ball ends up slipping and dies into the net without much force. it's all about the sponge for those suckers...
 ...its all spin but no real power.
that's called a stinky!LOL hard to deal with those. very annoying when it's done by a guy who kind of misses his bh loop and does that as a result :)
deadly like a nun's fart.
 
Hahaha a stinky.... have to start using that! LOL


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: Fruit loop
Date Posted: 01/15/2010 at 12:21am
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by Fruit loop Fruit loop wrote:

I now understand where i went wrong in my description. What I really meant was that with a euro stroke you hit through the sponge more directly and into the blade. Whereas the chinese stroke should rarely ever 'hit the blade' if this makes sense.

I also disagree with needing a coach for a certain type of stroke. I've taught myself and havn't had any issues. (No one uses chinese rubber at my club.)
 
The part where you say the chinese stroke should rarely ever hit the blade is not true either.  Sometimes you hit the blade alot.  Sometimes you don't.  Depends on the shot you're trying to do.  As for the coaching part... I personally know a few players who can "use" chinese rubber very nicely without coaching.  However, their improvised strokes are no where near maximizing what the rubbers capabilities nor are they using their own "power" correctly.  You can probably get away with these improvised strokes up to about 1800-2000 and still stay/win in a game.  However with levels above that where power, speed, spin, penetrating power truly matter because everyone can block/counter like madmen (at least at my club), improvised strokes won't generate enough of all 3 to be effective agaist players of that level.  Due to that, your overall ceiling of development is lowered due to all the bad habits you now have in muscle memory which will be ultra hard to unlearn and learn properly.


Are you generalising or reffering to me with your example?

The point I was trying to convey was that you can research the technique and implement it in your own game. There is a basic template but every player will look different in the way they play the shot. There isn't just 'one' technique. This is the reason why every chinese player has a different body mechanic for their shot.


-------------
Timo Boll Spirit FL
Dr Evil ox both sides.


Posted By: AgentSmith
Date Posted: 01/15/2010 at 12:45am
Quote
 In TT, usually the unnatural moments feel unnatural because if you're self taught, you've hammered your own strokes into your muscle memory so the correct proper strokes don't feel natural which is why many coaches like to start on little kids.  No unnautral bad habits to get rid of before you program them correctly and the correct way becomes their natural way because they don't know any other way.  After you hammer bad habits to yourself... a one step easy learning experience becomes a multistep step of unlearn everything from your muscle memory and try to relearn correctly with bad habits creeping in the middle of your learning disrupting your every move.  Makes it 10x harder when you have to reprogram everything from strokes, to bad footwork, to timing one at a time then try to reassemble everything back together and make it work in harmony without any of the old stuff creeping back in.


I don't disagree that obvious "bad habits" are a great disadvantage to improving... and like I said, I'm sure TT allows for less freedom in style than other sports... but I think there is a lot more to take into consideration. 

As I mentioned in the previous post, I see a few problems with cookie cutter techniques (i.e. the technique/style of one man, passed down the same way to all his students).  They don't take into consideration the body type, flexibility, build or physical characteristics of the individual.  Everyone does it one way.  It doesn't matter if that approach is comfortable to perform, fluid, or whether or not the person is capable of performing it effectively.  When a person in any given sport teaches themselves something, they naturally gravitate away from the restrictive or physically uncomfortable motions.

There are also a lot of challenges when teaching someone else to perform a complicated mechanical motion.  I'm mostly drawing my experience from other sports (which are indeed different than TT), but many times the best way of teaching such intricate motions are more hands off approaches.  Telling someone to rotate their shoulders, then dip their arm, then rotate their wrist, etc. can often lead to confusion and misapplication of the instructions by the student.  Verbal communication is a horrible way to pass information about complicated body movements.  I've noticed the best instructors I've had would take a very general approach, and leave the rest up to the student to figure out their own way.  "Try bringing your arm more over the top", "try to stay more balanced before you move forward", etc etc.  This helps the student get a better basic idea of the proper form, while leaving it mostly up to them to achieve it.  While this type of instruction is often more helpful, these general lessons can be learned from a variety of sources (aside from a coach).  Which brings me to my final point...

There are a lot of other ways to get the information you need.    You have Books, the internet, DVDs, watching other players and even video taping yourself.  If you are a good enough self study, you probably can get access to almost all of the information you need.

Now, I do concede that most people don't learn well by themselves.. and they can do more damage than good if they develop a host of bad habits.  However, I've noticed that there are a good proportion of very skilled athletes who have gotten very far with little outside intervention.  Some of the best athletes I know have developed their own drills, their own practice routines, their own unique styles and have succeeded by developing their own understanding of the sports they play.  While many other do have coaches and individuals to give instruction to them, most will still have their own personal style and deviation that suits them.

I'm certainly no TT expert though, so I admit that my points might not hold as true here... but I've seen nothing to suggest that paying a coach is the end all or be all to success in table tennis.. If people can achieve high levels of skill in other sports without personal instruction, I don't really see why it can't happen in this sport.


Posted By: AgentSmith
Date Posted: 01/15/2010 at 12:55am
BTW, anyone want to be brave and post a youtube video of how they approach shots with the different types of rubber?  I'm really very interested in it. 


Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 01/15/2010 at 5:50am
Originally posted by AgentSmith AgentSmith wrote:

BTW, anyone want to be brave and post a youtube video of how they approach shots with the different types of rubber?  I'm really very interested in it. 


like euro rubber swing and chinese rubber swing?


-------------
www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis
Timo Boll Spirit FL
H3 Blue Sponge Black FH
Tenergy 64 Red BH



Posted By: Imzadim
Date Posted: 01/15/2010 at 7:01am
Originally posted by AgentSmith AgentSmith wrote:

BTW, anyone want to be brave and post a youtube video of how they approach shots with the different types of rubber? I'm really very interested in it.


The video that the OP linked more or less shows this:
http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/06-09.html

On front you see Michael maze and on the background you see Ma Long, so you can compare them.


Posted By: AgentSmith
Date Posted: 01/15/2010 at 10:20am
Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

Originally posted by AgentSmith AgentSmith wrote:

BTW, anyone want to be brave and post a youtube video of how they approach shots with the different types of rubber?  I'm really very interested in it. 


like euro rubber swing and chinese rubber swing?


Exactly..

I did look at the video at the top, but the angles were pretty different and it looked like the intensity was too.  I do see some obvious differences, but I was hoping for something a little bit more along the lines of a technical analysis  (a couple angles from each, side by side comparison, commentary - that sort of thing)...


Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 02/24/2010 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Imzadim Imzadim wrote:

Originally posted by AgentSmith AgentSmith wrote:

BTW, anyone want to be brave and post a youtube video of how they approach shots with the different types of rubber?  I'm really very interested in it. 


The video that the OP linked more or less shows this:
http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/06-09.html

On front you see Michael maze and on the background you see Ma Long, so you can compare them.


+1 - Notice how Ma coils back much more and in his follow through how his elbow is, on average, higher as well as the blade position. He drops the blade low and uses his arm for more of the vertical motion while allowing his torso to fully release. One of the biggest forehands in the game no doubt. A very nice release but has a signature Chinese style follow throw.

Maze is more compact and uses less arm movement - he finshes less around his body than Ma. In slow motion it kind of reminds me of Timo's compact style.


-------------
Timo ALC FL

Tibhar Grip S MAx

Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm

He never boosts... of course he never had to...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 1:35am
In chinese forums, there's been a similar discussion of these 2 types of forehand. The wrist mechanism of producing spin is completely different, causing the outward appearance of the stroke to be different as well. For those who understand Chinese, the key is whether the wrist is 外展(bent outwards) or not.

Now as an illustration: Lift your computer mouse upwards with just your wrist while using it normally. That's bending your wrist outwards.(手腕外展) Bring it down the other direction as far as possible and it's called bending your wrist inwards(手腕内收)

I've practiced this by following instructions in Chinese forums and it's definitely not a "brush loop". It looks as if they brush due to the fact cocking your wrist outwards makes the blade face more horizontal to the ground. But when they hit the ball it's almost always perpendicular to the ground.

To practice this is very easy, Here's what I did: with your wrist bent outwards holding a mouse,  turn it left and right like a windshield wiper. (like saying hello!) That is the wrist mechanism for producing spin.

Then turn your lower arm 90 degrees clockwise to make the motion go upwards. Now hold a bat and try to spin the ball with just your wrist. As you get better at producing spin, use your arm more. And most importantly , relax!

I practiced it in front of a curtain until i can get the ball to spin very violently with just using my whole arm(no waist rotation yet). And by violently i mean the spin will cause the ball to roll up to the top of the curtain after hitting it and you can hear the ball make a pssst sound.

I just learnt this during the last 3 mths summer holiday. I'll post a video after I go back to australia.





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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 4:47am
Bullsh*t.

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 5:33am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

In chinese forums, there's been a similar discussion of these 2 types of forehand. The wrist mechanism of producing spin is completely different, causing the outward appearance of the stroke to be different as well. For those who understand Chinese, the key is whether the wrist is 外展(bent outwards) or not.

Now as an illustration: Lift your computer mouse upwards with just your wrist while using it normally. That's bending your wrist outwards.(手腕外展) Bring it down the other direction as far as possible and it's called bending your wrist inwards(手腕内收)

I've practiced this by following instructions in Chinese forums and it's definitely not a "brush loop". It looks as if they brush due to the fact cocking your wrist outwards makes the blade face more horizontal to the ground. But when they hit the ball it's almost always perpendicular to the ground.

To practice this is very easy, Here's what I did: with your wrist bent outwards holding a mouse,  turn it left and right like a windshield wiper. (like saying hello!) That is the wrist mechanism for producing spin.

Then turn your lower arm 90 degrees clockwise to make the motion go upwards. Now hold a bat and try to spin the ball with just your wrist. As you get better at producing spin, use your arm more. And most importantly , relax!

I practiced it in front of a curtain until i can get the ball to spin very violently with just using my whole arm(no waist rotation yet). And by violently i mean the spin will cause the ball to roll up to the top of the curtain after hitting it and you can hear the ball make a pssst sound.

I just learnt this during the last 3 mths summer holiday. I'll post a video after I go back to australia.




About right


-------------
Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 7:40am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Bullsh*t.


It is precisely this type of attitude that prevents you from learning more and improving.

On another note, Petr Korbel invented the backhand sidespin banana loop, but look at the Chinese players now. They use it much more successfully than any other player. The reason why Waldner was on the top for so many years was that he kept adjusting and innovating. He's always copying and developing new techniques to complement his play. Look at Timo Boll and Samsonov. I can't see them any different from 2003 and 2004. Look at 2005 Ma Long vs 2010 Ma Long, it's a world of difference. There's vast improvements in footwork, power, speed, new serves, etc... WLQ improved on speed,footwork and BH recently. Xu Xin's short balls and serves improved dramatically last year, etc.  

I just think it's just stupid(especially top players) not to learn from the Chinese, who are currently the best.


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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: johnkh
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 9:55am
i think chinese way of loop is better for spin? and euro way is more for speed?


Posted By: Peter C
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 11:10am
blahness

Are you a penholder by any chance?



Posted By: ryanstare
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I practiced it in front of a curtain until i can get the ball to spin very violently with just using my whole arm(no waist rotation yet). And by violently i mean the spin will cause the ball to roll up to the top of the curtain after hitting it and you can hear the ball make a pssst sound. I just learnt this during the last 3 mths summer holiday. I'll post a video after I go back to australia.

Wow, that's pretty impressive.
Thanks for the illustration, big help.


Posted By: Peter C
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 12:44pm
blahness

Petr Korbel plays the topsin/sidespin loop on his backhand wing and he didn't invent it either; as I remember players using that stroke, as far back as the late seventies.

Your description of using wrist on loops is also only advisable for players, who already have a well developed and consistent topspin loop and wish to add sidespin.

We in Europe also refer to it as the "broken wrist" and it's a common mistake you see at coaching in players, who are beginners or lower level players; who've yet to develop the technique required to loop consistently and they use it to try and compensate, for their flawed technique.

Instead of trying to run before you can walk, learn how to develop the correct technique and footwork to generate good speed and topspin, on your loops; rather than complicating the stroke with sidespin, from wrist action.

It will make you a better player in the long run, if you learn to develop a consistent topspin loop through good technique; before learning how to use wrist movement, as that is an advanced technique to add; after you've learnt to topspin loop consistently.

Years ago, I remember talking to a workmate about marathon running and we were speaking from experience , as both of us were seasoned runners and had Marathon medals, to our name.

Somebody in the office listened to what we'd said and then repeated it verbatim to try and impress someone else. I overheard this conversation and asked her to explain what she meant by one phrase. Needless to say, she couldn't and wondered why, we didn't take her seriously.

Because she was repeating something she didn't fully understand, she lacked the experience and background knowledge required, to be able to explain it properly. As a result I ended up providing the explanation to the person she'd been talking too and I was also able to answer further questions about it, as well.

You likewise are repeating something you've read on Chinese forums, without fully understanding how it fits into the context with the rest of the loop and  sadly your advice is not something I can take seriously and neither can APW46, hence the reason when he wrote Bullsh*t.

p.s. The topspin/sidepsin loop, is a shot I play on both wings; along with straight topspin loops and I'm able to mix the two to vary my attack, on either wing.






Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Bullsh*t.


It is precisely this type of attitude that prevents you from learning more and improving. 

 No its not, its my dismay at the drivel that gets posted by people who speculate. The whole issue of this thread is over complicated, and when it comes to learning about TT I can assure you I have been into the depths of stroke production techniques like you can only dream about.

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 2:16pm
APW and Peter C:

First, know that I respect both of you. (APW, this shouldn't be a surprise; but Peter C, just in case you're wondering, I do. Smile) Therefore, the question I'm about to ask is in no way meant to be disrespectful or confrontational. I'm just trying to further the dialogue. That being said...

I'm wondering, have either of you two ever trained with (not played against) but trained with any high-level, modern Chinese players?

The reason I ask is for my own benefit, really. For example, I find that many of the things that you guys scoff at actually resonate accurately with what I've heard from my friends who train in China. I don't want to feel stupid, or take in useless information. So I'm confused why you two, who are obviously knowledgeable, experienced, and skilled in table tennis, are so critical and skeptical of information that I've received from others--who are also knowledgeable, experienced, and skilled. Do you see my dilemma? How can two proven sources seem to put forth such contradictory information?

So, I'm wondering if it sounds like silliness to you guys because it's not part of your region's training regimen. That is to say, in the U.K. (and perhaps other parts of Europe) these details of looping are "incorrect". Whereas, in China (and perhaps other Asian countries) these details are "correct".

Is this just a case of regional differences in technique, or is one of my sources just stupid? LOL






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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 3:13pm
Actually blahness's post is pretty correct (theres a few lil minor tidbits missing) for the Chinese stroke.  They actually do teach that so its definately not BS because even both of the coaches I train under teach that for those using Chinese Stroke/equipment.  My coach is rated 2400+ and his coach is a former Chinese national team member and the former chief coach of Fujian Provincial team so that wrist technique is definately not just from some "article" on some forum.

-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 4:23pm
i was too lazy to read the whole thread but i do agree with peter about NOT including the wrist until you have the basic swing right.

-------------
www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis
Timo Boll Spirit FL
H3 Blue Sponge Black FH
Tenergy 64 Red BH



Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 4:28pm
Yep I would agree with that also... wrist comes later after the basic swing foundation and tenseness issues are resolved.

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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 4:34pm
I have no time now, but I will respond to the above tomorrow as it requires a detailed answer.

-------------
The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 4:47pm
Cool APW, it'll be really interesting to hear how the training differs in the UK.  But from what it sounds like, the basic structure sounds similar as it should be.  Step by step one thing at a time.

-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 5:10pm
I like this discussion too.

I'll throw in a question:

Is Kong Linghui's forehand loop Chinese or European style?

It looks to me it is Chinese but he was sponsored by Butterfly and using Tackifire, so Tackifire is the same as Chinese rubber?  I think probably is but I have to take a look.

How about Zhang Yining and Guo Yue? 

I think when they train, they will use a modified Chinese forehand strokes to fit with the European/Japanese type of rubbers?

Thanks.

FireHorse


-------------
Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon
FH: Andro Rassant Grip
BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by FireHorse FireHorse wrote:

I like this discussion too.

I'll throw in a question:

Is Kong Linghui's forehand loop Chinese or European style?

It looks to me it is Chinese but he was sponsored by Butterfly and using Tackifire, so Tackifire is the same as Chinese rubber?  I think probably is but I have to take a look.

How about Zhang Yining and Guo Yue? 

I think when they train, they will use a modified Chinese forehand strokes to fit with the European/Japanese type of rubbers?

Thanks.

FireHorse

not sure about KLH.  i believe iv tried tackifire (or was it tackiness chop?) but it wasnt tacky at all.  it just felt like any euro/jap rubber to me.  what a misleading name Dead

Zhang Yining is euro style.  Guo Yue is straight up orthodox chinese style.  i dont really like watching women play but if i had to watch a woman play, it would be her.  she plays like a guy: attack attack attack.


-------------
Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: figgie
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 5:24pm

as I mentioned before.

 
the "chinese" forehnd is in fact the OLD hungarian style. Not a chinese stroke ;)
 
Made popular by the likes of Joyner, Klampar, Gergley etc.


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Speed glue, booster, tuner free since 2006!!!


Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 5:24pm
zhang uses tenergy apparently back when she used to play. klh was a big bryce user back then too. his swing reminds me more of a korean swing than anything (think of oh sang eung)

-------------
www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis
Timo Boll Spirit FL
H3 Blue Sponge Black FH
Tenergy 64 Red BH



Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by figgie figgie wrote:

as I mentioned before.

 
the "chinese" forehnd is in fact the OLD hungarian style. Not a chinese stroke ;)
 
Made popular by the likes of Joyner, Klampar, Gergley etc.


Yeah, I agreed with you on this in other thread but let's say that it's now more Chinese players using it while European not using it anymore hence the Chinese style vs. European style, or should we say "straight arm loop" versus "compact loop"?  But I'm afraid that we will still use Chinese style vs. European style.

FireHorse


-------------
Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon
FH: Andro Rassant Grip
BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip


Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

Originally posted by FireHorse FireHorse wrote:

I like this discussion too.

I'll throw in a question:

Is Kong Linghui's forehand loop Chinese or European style?

It looks to me it is Chinese but he was sponsored by Butterfly and using Tackifire, so Tackifire is the same as Chinese rubber?  I think probably is but I have to take a look.

How about Zhang Yining and Guo Yue? 

I think when they train, they will use a modified Chinese forehand strokes to fit with the European/Japanese type of rubbers?

Thanks.

FireHorse

not sure about KLH.  i believe iv tried tackifire (or was it tackiness chop?) but it wasnt tacky at all.  it just felt like any euro/jap rubber to me.  what a misleading name Dead

Zhang Yining is euro style.  Guo Yue is straight up orthodox chinese style.  i dont really like watching women play but if i had to watch a woman play, it would be her.  she plays like a guy: attack attack attack.


So, it means Zhang Yining not using Chinese style and she dominated in women tournament.  Guo Yue with Chinese style were No. 2 and at one point No. 1.  So, they use the same type of rubbers (which I assume Euro/Japanese rubbers) but they have different strokes.

I think KLH is straight arm loop too, and with Tackifire made him become King Kong so I think it depends on how to play with it.

The main thing, IMHO, is that how you use the rubber to fit with your strokes.  And as Rack said, you need to know how to use the top sheet for brush stroke and how to use the sponge for power.  No style is better but I guess the Chinese style might prevent you from back injury but probably shoulder injury.

No matter what style you play, you probably need to warm-up first, relax while executing those strokes and get enough rest to heal those stresses.

FireHorse


-------------
Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon
FH: Andro Rassant Grip
BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip


Posted By: figgie
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by FireHorse FireHorse wrote:

 ... or should we say "straight arm loop" versus "compact loop"?  But I'm afraid that we will still use Chinese style vs. European style.

FireHorse
 
That would be more appropiate.
 
anyway the questin as asked by the op is a loaded and vague question anyway ;)
 
Why does a person A use equipment B with rubber x over person B that uses equipment N with rubber z? It is a choice and nothing more.  Throw into the "fitness" level of most non-world class players (looking like 150 lbs of chewed bubble gm) and then physical ability diminishes which limit what the person can do.
 
There is no such thing as BETTER/BEST as that is all dependant on the person applying the form strokes and thier particular ability.
 
Of course ALL things being equal (which in this reality, they are not), the straight arm loop can produce faster shots than the compact loop if both are done @ 100% of the body's rotational velocity.
 
Now with that said, some peple can jog, others develop knee problems and prefer to swim. Each person has to see what is SUSTAINABLE to them for a long period of time. Most players will NOT have the fitness to sustain straight arm looping in a competiton much less world class play.
 


-------------
Speed glue, booster, tuner free since 2006!!!


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 6:12pm
Yep both Euro/Chinese strokes are good.  It just matters which one you prefer.  Like Fig said its just a choice that people make that fits them better.  In the end, both strokes can take you to become a great player.

-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Yep both Euro/Chinese strokes are good.  It just matters which one you prefer.  Like Fig said its just a choice that people make that fits them better.  In the end, both strokes can take you to become a great player.

BS.  You know deep down inside that the Chinese stroke is far superior Wink


-------------
Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: cousinkenni
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:


not sure about KLH.  i believe iv tried tackifire (or was it tackiness chop?) but it wasnt tacky at all.  it just felt like any euro/jap rubber to me.  what a misleading name Dead

Zhang Yining is euro style.  Guo Yue is straight up orthodox chinese style.  i dont really like watching women play but if i had to watch a woman play, it would be her.  she plays like a guy: attack attack attack.


Wow, If you believe that Zhang Yining has a Euro style loop then you need to explain your stance........and you can't just say "its hard to explain" like you did in the other thread when talking about Chaun.  Are you basing this wholly on what type of equipment the players are using????  Please go into details of why you believe she does not have a chinese stroke

Also, do you believe that you cannot perform the chinese stroke with jap/euro rubbers?  what happens when you perform the chinese stroke with euro rubbers.  If this has been posted already please point me to the place where you stated it.

Lastly, what is your final definition of "the chinese stroke"?  First it was that the whole arm is used....now it seems like there is some kind of component of more forward movement?


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Yep both Euro/Chinese strokes are good.  It just matters which one you prefer.  Like Fig said its just a choice that people make that fits them better.  In the end, both strokes can take you to become a great player.

BS.  You know deep down inside that the Chinese stroke is far superior Wink
 
Not really,  Waldner.... nuff said.


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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 6:55pm
Kong was more of a Hybrid.  He was trained in China then sent to Europe to train there to learn what was going on in Europe.  KLH was the 1.0 to Ma Long's current style which is the culmination of what they learned and combined of both Chinese/Euro training.  Heavy emphasis on speed and basics.
 
Zhang Yining has a lil hybrid style too.  Doesn't she use Tenergy?  She has a very heavy emphasis on speed and basics too.  Guo plays like the Chinese mens team... its kinda cool. Big%20smile


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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: BMonkey
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 7:53pm

I have a question: Where does the Korean Jpen forehand (think Lee Jung Woo and Ryu Seung Min) fall as far as strokes go? Would you consider it its own style? Or is it just Chinese? I like their forehands...so powerful Clap



Posted By: zwu168
Date Posted: 02/25/2010 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Yep both Euro/Chinese strokes are good.  It just matters which one you prefer.  Like Fig said its just a choice that people make that fits them better.  In the end, both strokes can take you to become a great player.

BS.  You know deep down inside that the Chinese stroke is far superior Wink
 
Not really,  Waldner.... nuff said.
waldner plays and wins because he plays with the mind. his technique isnt the best but he beats the best with his brain


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OC WRB
FH: Hurricane 2
BH: CJ8000


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 6:42am
Right, first let me deal with the use of the wrist in loop/topspin strokes. The exessive use of the wrist to aid power during loop/loopdriving strokes was particularly evident during the 1970's/ early 80's, it is not some mysterious new technique developed in China. Before speed glue was in widespread use, a whipping action using the elbow and wrist was widely practiced in European countries, an action not too dissimilar to the arm action when skimming a stone, I played this way myself as a junior. When Speed glue started to be used more widely, the necessity for this quite complicated action ceased because adequate power could be achieved via a slower contact speed, and a slower contact speed is always more consistent. In todays game some players use more wrist than others, regardless of their nationality, and this is the same when talking about looping styles. The 'chinese loop' is a long arm stroke taken early, there have been plenty of players in history who have used this technique when the Chinese were still flat hitting, Hungarians used it successfully because the early contact counter loop was in its infancy and the widely accepted was to return a loop successfully was to block it, so relative to todays game, a passive stroke was used, allowing the Hungarians time to recover their enormous swings. The Chinese game was based upon quick hitting, and their only consistent response to a 'big spin' was to block it.
Move forward 10 yrs and we had JP Gatien, who's game was based around taking his loopdrives early, so the emphasis was upon quick stroke recovery, facillitated by the employment of a compact stroke and superb footwork. Most European coaches took up the Gatien model as being the way forward, and the players in their prime today are the product of that period.
Chinese style F/hand topspinning is largely a product bourne out of the availability in China of equipment at affordable prices to young aspiring Chinese players, they cannot afford Euro/Jap rubbers, so start playing wioth Chinese rubbers, and after their initial formative stroke production, the mould is set. The longer arm derives from the objective of attaining more power with slower equipment, a less conservative stroke is not possible, the Chinese have Conquered this because of the size and exellence of their structure, so a technically more difficult stroke to be successful with, has been realised. I also believe that the addition of the 40mm ball has helped the Chinese in this matter. I have to go coaching...
More later, but to sum up for now, the reason that say WLC has a superb f/hand is for many reasons, such as the fact that he is always in position to play it, the least important of those reasons is whether he uses his wrist or not on contact.


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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 8:22am
To all: it's just what I've read and trained with, so take it with a grain of salt. Isn't it good that we have diverse schools of technique, otherwise TT wouldn't be so interesting. I'm a shakehander by the way. Sorry for such a long post, but this is getting really interesting and i'm on hols now... :D

For training:
I still train a lot with basic strokes(without minimal wrist action) as much as possible, but the really important thing to realise is that the wrist is held steady, but yet not stiff. That is because if you intentionally stiffen your wrist your arm would not be relaxed and you risk losing your muscle coordination and even injury. You do need to know how the wrist functions in a big loop, then make it compact to fit counterhits. and that's why people train basic strokes(counterhits) AND medium power loops at the same time. Both of them connect very tightly together. After much training, the wrist action should be natural and integrated into the stroke and not forced as ppl think. Also the wrist action shouldn't produce sidespin, it should produce pure topspin because the wrist goes from outwards to neutral, not neutral to inwards. That's unless you contact the ball on the side.

As to why an almost straight arm is desired, it's because there is extra acceleration obtained with the dramatic reduction in radius of movement(physicists help me) as the straight arm becomes compressed.

To APW: Do you really believe WLQ doesn't use his wrist? He's actually the master of it! His wrist action somehow "lags" behind his arm action, so most ppl don't notice it. Try getting a really high quality video of him close up and slow-mo it. You'll definitely notice the wrist going from "outwards" to neutral or even inwards.

About equipment: The "chinese" stroke can be used equally well with Euro equipment since it utilizes the sponge. However, tacky and slow rubbers increases the dwell time allowing much more control, and better spin as well.

About Waldner, I think he actually mastered both types of loops with the infamous sidespin loop the Euro type and the down to line loop a "Chinese" style loop(look at how his wrist goes from pointing backwards to pointing upwards!) But he wins because of his ridiculous short game control and brains. He still has the most "sudden" serve receive in the game.


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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 9:06am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:



To APW: Do you really believe WLQ doesn't use his wrist?

 I think you should read what I said again, I think WLC has superb use of his wrist, but IMO it is not that aspect that makes his F/hand the superb stroke that it is. Unless you happen to be one of the best players in the world, Looping with a straight arm has a major drawback, you have little time to recover for the next stroke. I'm off to practice spinning balls up curtains. Figgie and Peter C speak with obvious experience.

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 3:10pm

+1 to Blahness... mirror's what my coaches say pretty much.  According to the National Team coaches, what sets WLQ's forehand apart from the others of the Nat team is his finger usage which they deemed him a "PH-D" on.  Was documented in the Chinese National Team powerpoint that was posted a while back.

They rated WLQ using a "education" level scale...
 
Fingers - PH-D
Wrist - Undergrad
Forearm - Secondary School
Arm - Elementary School
 
But ya really interesting discussion though.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by figgie figgie wrote:

as I mentioned before.

 
the "chinese" forehnd is in fact the OLD hungarian style. Not a chinese stroke ;)
 
Made popular by the likes of Joyner, Klampar, Gergley etc.


Something just came to my mind...  And this could be interesting.

The "straight arm" loops have been used by the Hungarians as mentioned above, and also by the late Andre Grubba of Poland and numerous Chinese players while the "compact loop" have been used by Timo Boll, Gatien, Persson...

The formers were (and are) from communist countries while the laters are from capitalist countries.  Should it be more appropriate that we say "communist loop" against "capitalist loop" hehehe j/k

I hope nobody would take this seriously because I find it's kinda funny and interesting.  Hope that this is not going to be a political debate, please!

FireHorse




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Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon
FH: Andro Rassant Grip
BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip


Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

+1 to Blahness... mirror's what my coaches say pretty much.  According to the National Team coaches, what sets WLQ's forehand apart from the others of the Nat team is his finger usage which they deemed him a "PH-D" on.  Was documented in the Chinese National Team powerpoint that was posted a while back.



I'm interested in this.  Would you please elaborate more about how he uses his finger?  You mean the index finger?  Thanks.

FireHorse


-------------
Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon
FH: Andro Rassant Grip
BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 3:17pm

The presentation didn't really elaborate on it (I really wish they did because it seems like golden information).  But theres a picture in there and they highlighted his fingers and his wrist where hes very advanced according to the coaches.  Theres also another chart in there where they rate the speed, power, spin, trajectory, placement of 4 players... Timo, WLQ, Ma Lin, Wang Hao.

Their ratings were (in the same order I listed the categories)...
 
Timo - Speed - Excellent, Power - Fair, Spin - Excellent, Trajectory - Good, Placement - Good
 
WLQ - Speed - Excellent, Power - Excellent, Spin - Good, Trajectory - Good, Placement - Fair
 
Ma Lin - Speed - Good, Power - Fair, Spin - Excellent, Trajectory - Excellent, Placement - Excellent
 
Wang Hao - Speed - Excellent, Power - Excellent, Spin - Excellent, Trajectory - Good, Placement - Good


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: Fstyler
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

Why would a person use a Chinese forehand?WHy would a person use a Euro Forehand?Is equipment the only reason why a person would have a Chinese forehand as to a Euro forehand?

Chinese or euro forehand? I saw Maze`s forehand and Ma`s forehand on this video. Forehand topspin is unique for each person, but only some base elements are common:
-forward and upward movement
-usage of all body from legs to wrist
-short swing near the table and wide swing far from the table


Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

The presentation didn't really elaborate on it (I really wish they did because it seems like golden information).  But theres a picture in there and they highlighted his fingers and his wrist where hes very advanced according to the coaches.  Theres also another chart in there where they rate the speed, power, spin, trajectory, placement of 4 players... Timo, WLQ, Ma Lin, Wang Hao.

Their ratings were (in the same order I listed the categories)...
 
Timo - Speed - Excellent, Power - Fair, Spin - Excellent, Trajectory - Good, Placement - Good
 
WLQ - Speed - Excellent, Power - Excellent, Spin - Good, Trajectory - Good, Placement - Fair
 
Ma Lin - Speed - Good, Power - Fair, Spin - Excellent, Trajectory - Excellent, Placement - Excellent
 
Wang Hao - Speed - Excellent, Power - Excellent, Spin - Excellent, Trajectory - Good, Placement - Good


I wish I could get a hand on that document and put it in a safe Smile

Looks to me that they favor Wang Hao, probably it published at the time when Wang Hao was the best.

FireHorse


-------------
Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon
FH: Andro Rassant Grip
BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip


Posted By: BMonkey
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

+1 to Blahness... mirror's what my coaches say pretty much.  According to the National Team coaches, what sets WLQ's forehand apart from the others of the Nat team is his finger usage which they deemed him a "PH-D" on.  Was documented in the Chinese National Team powerpoint that was posted a while back.

They rated WLQ using a "education" level scale...
 
Fingers - PH-D
Wrist - Undergrad
Forearm - Secondary School
Arm - Elementary School
 
But ya really interesting discussion though.
Rack, I think you misunderstood this slide in Li Xiao Dong's presentation. It wasn't about Wang Liqin, it was about adjustment when brushing the ball to produce topspin. Li Xiao Dong was showing that learning how to adjust first starts at the arm. Once you have mastered adjustment with the arm then you learn how to adjust with the forearm, then with the wrist and finally with the fingers.


Posted By: BMonkey
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by FireHorse FireHorse wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

The presentation didn't really elaborate on it (I really wish they did because it seems like golden information).  But theres a picture in there and they highlighted his fingers and his wrist where hes very advanced according to the coaches.  Theres also another chart in there where they rate the speed, power, spin, trajectory, placement of 4 players... Timo, WLQ, Ma Lin, Wang Hao.

Their ratings were (in the same order I listed the categories)...
 
Timo - Speed - Excellent, Power - Fair, Spin - Excellent, Trajectory - Good, Placement - Good
 
WLQ - Speed - Excellent, Power - Excellent, Spin - Good, Trajectory - Good, Placement - Fair
 
Ma Lin - Speed - Good, Power - Fair, Spin - Excellent, Trajectory - Excellent, Placement - Excellent
 
Wang Hao - Speed - Excellent, Power - Excellent, Spin - Excellent, Trajectory - Good, Placement - Good


I wish I could get a hand on that document and put it in a safe Smile

Looks to me that they favor Wang Hao, probably it published at the time when Wang Hao was the best.

FireHorse
I posted it up for everyone awhile back
 
http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271 - http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271
 
 


Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by BMonkey BMonkey wrote:


I posted it up for everyone awhile back
 
http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271 - http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271
 
 


I got it, thanks.  And Rack is right, it doesn't say much.

FireHorse


-------------
Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon
FH: Andro Rassant Grip
BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip


Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by BMonkey BMonkey wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

+1 to Blahness... mirror's what my coaches say pretty much.  According to the National Team coaches, what sets WLQ's forehand apart from the others of the Nat team is his finger usage which they deemed him a "PH-D" on.  Was documented in the Chinese National Team powerpoint that was posted a while back.

They rated WLQ using a "education" level scale...
 
Fingers - PH-D
Wrist - Undergrad
Forearm - Secondary School
Arm - Elementary School
 
But ya really interesting discussion though.
Rack, I think you misunderstood this slide in Li Xiao Dong's presentation. It wasn't about Wang Liqin, it was about adjustment when brushing the ball to produce topspin. Li Xiao Dong was showing that learning how to adjust first starts at the arm. Once you have mastered adjustment with the arm then you learn how to adjust with the forearm, then with the wrist and finally with the fingers.


I can see how a person to use the arm, then the forearm, and then the wrist but I have never thought of using the finger.  I guess it's a PhD level that I will never got to but it's something to shoot for :)

Again, thanks for the document.

FireHorse


-------------
Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon
FH: Andro Rassant Grip
BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip


Posted By: BMonkey
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by FireHorse FireHorse wrote:

Originally posted by BMonkey BMonkey wrote:


I posted it up for everyone awhile back
 
http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271 - http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271
 
 


I got it, thanks.  And Rack is right, it doesn't say much.

FireHorse
It says alot of things, but indirectly. In conjunction with the other posts in the thread it says even more. You just have to think about the slides because the transcript of his lecture isn't there. For example: when he talks about "tight connecting" on page 30 and gives a breakdown of connecting, these are good pointers for the types of drills you should be working on to improve your ability connect shots together.
 
It really gets more interesting from page 60 onwards.


Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by BMonkey BMonkey wrote:

Originally posted by FireHorse FireHorse wrote:

Originally posted by BMonkey BMonkey wrote:


I posted it up for everyone awhile back
 
http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271 - http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271
 
 


I got it, thanks.  And Rack is right, it doesn't say much.

FireHorse
It says alot of things, but indirectly. In conjunction with the other posts in the thread it says even more. You just have to think about the slides because the transcript of his lecture isn't there. For example: when he talks about "tight connecting" on page 30 and gives a breakdown of connecting, these are good pointers for the types of drills you should be working on to improve your ability connect shots together.
 
It really gets more interesting from page 60 onwards.


I see...  I'll read the posts on that thread more to understand the slides.  I guess to reach a PhD level, it takes a lot more work, there's no easy way, otherwise, everybody reaches that level :)

Anyway, thanks so much for all of the pointers.

FireHorse


-------------
Current Setup:
Butterfly Primorac Carbon
FH: Andro Rassant Grip
BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 6:25pm
I honestly think that the perspective that players/members of this forum look at this, is directly associated to their level of play, I'm saying no more on this, other than that there are many levels of standards between WLC etc, and the players/members of this forum post their views accordingly, my personal view, as a coach that specialises in improving the standard of players who are not potential internationals, are not ever going to reach the heights of International play, do not practice full time, are not sponsored, Are not a part of an international program for producing top players, do not have the time, money or inclination to play at the top level, Are well above the age at which any of the above is realistically possible, but just wish to be a little better in their play, Leave this stuff alone, be honest about your realistic expectations, don't try to copy WLC's F/hand drive, develop your own, personal to you, copy the best player in your club, its a realistic goal that you can achieve, trying to emulate the best players in the world is just not a realistic propasition, there are for the most of us, players who are the stars of our regions/ countries who are full time proffesional players, yet they cannot get anywhere near the level of the best players in the world, do you not think that they might have possibly been advised by their national full time experienced coaches on the benefits, realisations and probabilities of success that they can apparently easily achieve by copying WLC and the rest of the current Chinese national team? So why does anyone on this forum think that the advice given by blahness is going to make any difference to their game? we in England send our best players to China for long periods, they do not ever come back having a WLC forhand, why does anyone think that they can employ these methods better than them? that is why I was quite precise in my response with the word 'Bullsh*t' and I whole heartedly stick by it.
 When it comes to coaching, In am seriously a massive critic, there is an obvious culture within the USA of Chinese coaches being resident in clubs of a given locality. For the most part, the techniques and stratergies of these coaches is well above what the players they coach are capable of, they are there for money and money alone, and are not capable of coaching anything other than international play, which flies well above the capabilities of most of their students. So what i'm saying guys is that if you wish to get that edge, that extra bump up the ratings next year, you would be far better off following Brian Pace than a top Chinese coach. If however you are ranked 120 in the world, go for the Chinese guy every timeWink

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I honestly think that the perspective that players/members of this forum look at this, is directly associated to their level of play, I'm saying no more on this, other than that there are many levels of standards between WLC etc, and the players/members of this forum post their views accordingly, my personal view, as a coach that specialises in improving the standard of players who are not potential internationals, are not ever going to reach the heights of International play, do not practice full time, are not sponsored, Are not a part of an international program for producing top players, do not have the time, money or inclination to play at the top level, Are well above the age at which any of the above is realistically possible, but just wish to be a little better in their play, Leave this stuff alone, be honest about your realistic expectations, don't try to copy WLC's F/hand drive, develop your own, personal to you, copy the best player in your club, its a realistic goal that you can achieve, trying to emulate the best players in the world is just not a realistic propasition, there are for the most of us, players who are the stars of our regions/ countries who are full time proffesional players, yet they cannot get anywhere near the level of the best players in the world, do you not think that they might have possibly been advised by their national full time experienced coaches on the benefits, realisations and probabilities of success that they can apparently easily achieve by copying WLC and the rest of the current Chinese national team? So why does anyone on this forum think that the advice given by blahness is going to make any difference to their game? we in England send our best players to China for long periods, they do not ever come back having a WLC forhand, why does anyone think that they can employ these methods better than them? that is why I was quite precise in my response with the word 'Bullsh*t' and I whole heartedly stick by it.

His name is Wang LiQIN. not Wang LiChing! Angry

I'll agree to an extent that copying WLQ's straight arm fh is a bit unrealistic.  There are many dynamics to his stroke that are hard to see in videos.  Luckily for me, my coach teaches a variant of the WLQ fh which is similar and fits me too Smile

I highly doubt the players sent from England to train in China would come back with a straight arm fh.  I doubt they would want to dramatically change their style of play.  I also doubt they had a chinese stroke in the first place.  It's unreasonable for high level players to completely change their game.  But they didn't come back with a chinese fh doesn't mean that  WLQ's straight arm technique is unreachable even to high level players.

When it comes down to it, every player will not have the same exact stroke.  Instead, they will probably have a variant of the stroke they would like to emulate which fits their body type and style.


-------------
Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I honestly think that the perspective that players/members of this forum look at this, is directly associated to their level of play, I'm saying no more on this, other than that there are many levels of standards between WLC etc, and the players/members of this forum post their views accordingly, my personal view, as a coach that specialises in improving the standard of players who are not potential internationals, are not ever going to reach the heights of International play, do not practice full time, are not sponsored, Are not a part of an international program for producing top players, do not have the time, money or inclination to play at the top level, Are well above the age at which any of the above is realistically possible, but just wish to be a little better in their play, Leave this stuff alone, be honest about your realistic expectations, don't try to copy WLC's F/hand drive, develop your own, personal to you, copy the best player in your club, its a realistic goal that you can achieve, trying to emulate the best players in the world is just not a realistic propasition, there are for the most of us, players who are the stars of our regions/ countries who are full time proffesional players, yet they cannot get anywhere near the level of the best players in the world, do you not think that they might have possibly been advised by their national full time experienced coaches on the benefits, realisations and probabilities of success that they can apparently easily achieve by copying WLC and the rest of the current Chinese national team? So why does anyone on this forum think that the advice given by blahness is going to make any difference to their game? we in England send our best players to China for long periods, they do not ever come back having a WLC forhand, why does anyone think that they can employ these methods better than them? that is why I was quite precise in my response with the word 'Bullsh*t' and I whole heartedly stick by it.

His name is Wang LiQIN. not Wang LiChing! Angry

I'll agree to an extent that copying WLQ's straight arm fh is a bit unrealistic.  There are many dynamics to his stroke that are hard to see in videos.  Luckily for me, my coach teaches a variant of the WLQ fh which is similar and fits me too Smile

I highly doubt the players sent from England to train in China would come back with a straight arm fh.  I doubt they would want to dramatically change their style of play.  I also doubt they had a chinese stroke in the first place.  It's unreasonable for high level players to completely change their game.  But they didn't come back with a chinese fh doesn't mean that  WLQ's straight arm technique is unreachable even to high level players.

When it comes down to it, every player will not have the same exact stroke.  Instead, they will probably have a variant of the stroke they would like to emulate which fits their body type and style.
 WLC ? who cares, you know who I mean.

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 6:58pm
I have always seen on internet forums the abbreviation; WLC, not WLQ

-------------
The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 7:10pm
"Q" in Qin used to be spelled as "Ch" (Chin) until the Chinese government changed it.  As far as pronunciation goes, "CH" is more accurate...   Smile


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 9:12pm
Yes, its pronounced with a "CH" sound but officially spelled with a "Q".  I think it's only right to have that recognized and respected.

Of course there wouldn't be an issue if everyone referred to Wang Liqin as 王勵勤 Smile


-------------
Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: Rack
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I honestly think that the perspective that players/members of this forum look at this, is directly associated to their level of play, I'm saying no more on this, other than that there are many levels of standards between WLC etc, and the players/members of this forum post their views accordingly, my personal view, as a coach that specialises in improving the standard of players who are not potential internationals, are not ever going to reach the heights of International play, do not practice full time, are not sponsored, Are not a part of an international program for producing top players, do not have the time, money or inclination to play at the top level, Are well above the age at which any of the above is realistically possible, but just wish to be a little better in their play, Leave this stuff alone, be honest about your realistic expectations, don't try to copy WLC's F/hand drive, develop your own, personal to you, copy the best player in your club, its a realistic goal that you can achieve, trying to emulate the best players in the world is just not a realistic propasition, there are for the most of us, players who are the stars of our regions/ countries who are full time proffesional players, yet they cannot get anywhere near the level of the best players in the world, do you not think that they might have possibly been advised by their national full time experienced coaches on the benefits, realisations and probabilities of success that they can apparently easily achieve by copying WLC and the rest of the current Chinese national team? So why does anyone on this forum think that the advice given by blahness is going to make any difference to their game? we in England send our best players to China for long periods, they do not ever come back having a WLC forhand, why does anyone think that they can employ these methods better than them? that is why I was quite precise in my response with the word 'Bullsh*t' and I whole heartedly stick by it.
 When it comes to coaching, In am seriously a massive critic, there is an obvious culture within the USA of Chinese coaches being resident in clubs of a given locality. For the most part, the techniques and stratergies of these coaches is well above what the players they coach are capable of, they are there for money and money alone, and are not capable of coaching anything other than international play, which flies well above the capabilities of most of their students. So what i'm saying guys is that if you wish to get that edge, that extra bump up the ratings next year, you would be far better off following Brian Pace than a top Chinese coach. If however you are ranked 120 in the world, go for the Chinese guy every timeWink
 
Would have to disagree with this one strongly especially in the club I go to.  Grace has coached MANY kids/adults from the ground up to very high heights including Ethan Chua, Anand Engineer, her own son Jeff, my coach Steven Chan, etc etc.   Theres a ton of kids of various levels there also.  I know this is true at LATTA also where I've seen many players of various levels getting coached and reaching higher ratings.


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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)

FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H

BH - Tenergy 64 2.1


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 02/26/2010 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by cousinkenni cousinkenni wrote:



Wow, If you believe that Zhang Yining has a Euro style loop then you need to explain your stance........and you can't just say "its hard to explain" like you did in the other thread when talking about Chaun.  Are you basing this wholly on what type of equipment the players are using????  Please go into details of why you believe she does not have a chinese stroke

Also, do you believe that you cannot perform the chinese stroke with jap/euro rubbers?  what happens when you perform the chinese stroke with euro rubbers.  If this has been posted already please point me to the place where you stated it.

Lastly, what is your final definition of "the chinese stroke"?  First it was that the whole arm is used....now it seems like there is some kind of component of more forward movement?

Rack, answered a lot of these questions already.

Yes, you can do chinese stroke even with euro/jap rubbers.  I actually learned how to do basic chinese stroke with Express 1. 

There are many elements to the chinese stroke.  You can generalize it with the "straight arm" component and the forward component.  I suppose the main thing for me is driving the ball instead of brushing.  Some players are obviously at opposite ends while some can lie in a more "gray" area.  And like I previously mentioned, there are hyrbid techniques.  I like to idealize the Chinese stroke with WLQ.


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 02/27/2010 at 1:14am
This thread is the reason I don't get caught up in this is right or this is wrong from coaches or other players. I gladly take advice and training and then I evaluate it for my own game. For example I was hitting with one 2000 level player a few weeks back who said I needed to close off my backhand more and make sure my left foot was well in front of my right and my left shoulder was in front at all times. I played with another 2000 level player last weekend who insisted that you hit with the right foot forward and your right shoulder is in front. For me this is all great theory but I have an issue about getting obsessive with technique and mechanics so I have to take it with a grain of salt. After all in the middle of a point the last thing I should be worried about is technique rather than focusing on strategy and winning the point.

@ Firehorse - Tackifire is a tacky rubber and is Butterfly's answer to a Chinese style rubber. Especially Tackifire C.


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Timo ALC FL

Tibhar Grip S MAx

Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm

He never boosts... of course he never had to...


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/27/2010 at 9:40am
I have trained in China with some Chinese coaches.  They did not try to change my forehand.  Mainly they drilled me until my legs felt like rubber and they concentrated on timing, timing, timing.  The we worked on some tactical thinking that was really cool, especially stuff on serving and returning serve.  I am sure if I had been 12 years old, maybe they would have re-tooled many things.  But past a certain point, your stroke is what it is. 


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/27/2010 at 9:43am
This thing people are calling "the Chinese stroke" is a lot less obvious in their top women than in the men, and it is not something one finds in all very good Chinese, that is for sure.  



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