Ma Long's technique
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Topic: Ma Long's technique
Posted By: blahness
Subject: Ma Long's technique
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 12:41am
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Just found this gem! http://www.bokett.com/tt/dispbbs.asp?boardid=960&id=340563%20 - http://www.bokett.com/tt/dispbbs.asp?boardid=960&id=340563 It includes 1) Ma Long's FH loop-kill against underspin 2) Ma Long's FH loop against half-long serves 3) Ma Long's FH mid-distance counterloop 4) Ma Long's over the table sidespin BH flick 5) Ma Long's traditional BH flick, starting with a fake "push" motion. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Replies:
Posted By: chronos
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:07am
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Pure gold!!! |
Posted By: rookies
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:10am
Thank you very much! ------------- Timo Boll Spirit FH: Hurricane 3 Neo BH: Coppa X1 Turbo http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36111&title=feedback-rookies" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:38am
Super awesome pics. Now I just need to learn how to read Chinese so I can understand the details. (Or is that Japanese?) Maybe I first need to learn to distinguish between the two... ------------- Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80 |
Posted By: skstv2010
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:51am
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Chinese haha ------------- Neo TG3 + Ebonholz V ST + Sriver G3 |
Posted By: TT_haru
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 2:09am
| His weakness is his backhand at middle and middle far table ... Switching to his forehand .... |
Posted By: enky4u
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 3:39am
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can you translate it to english? thanks
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Posted By: rustyfo
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 4:18am
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awesome, anyone translating this to English would be my personal hero!
------------- Blade: Tibhar Samsonov Alpha FH: Tenergy 05 BH: Acuda S1 |
Posted By: vali
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 4:25am
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From these pictures seems that he has a pretty much backhand oriented grip. I didn't noticed that till now. As it was said he is more like a new Kong than a new Liqin. ------------- Clipper FH: XIOM Vega Asia , max BH: Yasaka RAKZA7, 2.0 |
Posted By: Vladovich
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 4:42am
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Woow, this is great, can someone translate pictures? ------------- Tibhar Defense Plus FH: Joola Phenix BH: Dr. Neubauer Bison 1.5mm "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be…unnatural." |
Posted By: Vassily
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:10am
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Nice pics! I thought Zhang Jike was the new Kong with his BH grip and his crab stance. But I saw in an interview that ZJ personally likes to hit the ball really hard, and they have to keep trying to get him to chill out a bit... Ma Long is more willing to let the opponent start attacking first, so I suppose in that sense he is more Kong-like. So it looks like everyone is Kong? That loop against half-long serves is interesting. Most people tend to go flatter and the shot seems way easier to do with sticky chinese rubber compared to less sticky euro stuff. ------------- Nittaku Acoustic FL T05 Acuda S2 2.0mm |
Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 12:13pm
No offense, but I think he has neutral grip. The one who has backhand oriented grip is Zhang Jike. That is why Ma Long is not as strong in his backhand as Zhang Jike. But again, his forehand is better than Zhang Jike. It's just my observation. ------------- Current Setup: Butterfly Primorac Carbon FH: Andro Rassant Grip BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip |
vali wrote:Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 12:15pm
It is truly a gem. I just need to learn Chinese to know the details. It helps to look at the pictures but it would be greatly helpful if someone can translate in English. But thanks for the post. FireHorse ------------- Current Setup: Butterfly Primorac Carbon FH: Andro Rassant Grip BH: Andro Rassant PowerGrip |
Posted By: TT_haru
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 3:15pm
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Posted By: fructu
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 4:18pm
Just amazing, thanks a lot !!!
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Posted By: pipigrande
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 5:04pm
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Simply looking at Ma Long, you would think his FH is better than BH. Chinese commentators and coaches have said in the past that Ma Long's BH is not his weakness but it is even better than his FH. I'm too lazy to look up the references, so if anyone remember them feel free to post them. Oh and btw you can't say Long's FH is not as 'strong' as Jikes. Are you talking about power? Consistency? Spin? Placement? ... Ma long FH has something that Jikes doesn't and viceversa. ------------- Acoustic BH: T64 FH: BW2 |
Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:01pm
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To watch Ma long's bh, the 2 last points from 10-10 in the last set to win wang hao in the Asian games. Ma Long's bh is quite good. -------------  EJ Club. MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh);  InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Posted By: TT_haru
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:10pm
| It is mentioned in the link posted above. Furthermore, knowing his weakness, he will take the initiative to attack during the first 3 strokes as a way to suppress his opponent and at the fourth stroke, he is able to turn from defensive to offensive using some high difficulty technique to counter-loop and gain the initiative. Basically, he like to take the initiative to be the first to attack so that he can control the match. That's his style. Also the link only mention about his weakness at mid and mid-far table for his BH. So his BH and near table is still pretty formidable ... |
Posted By: johnny89atc
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:16pm
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Very nice, thank you!
------------- Blade: OSP Virtuoso-L RST 87gr FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 FX 2.1 BH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:44pm
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When are you guys just gonna realise that strokes don't make the player, any world class player in the top 100 has the same firepower, the looped drive winner is just the hammer that knocks the nail in, the best guy in the world is always than man on top form through other reasons, usually because his total touch/ service, and actually total awareness of top TT play has reached a real peak, its nothing to do with his stroke play. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: TT_haru
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:49pm
| Okay and I m just able to encourage those who understand chinese to help-out in translating the stuff to benefit other shakehand users. It will feel like a wasted effort right? Anyway, what you said is true as well, 'emulate' the top player doesn't make one a top player ... |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:54pm
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: PongPong
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 7:33pm
| Usually Chinese handshake players use BH close to the table, unable to counter loop from distance using BH but Ma Long can do quality BH counter loops sometimes. |
Posted By: hclnnkhg
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 7:41pm
First picture is a description about Ma Long's style(which I am not really concerned about ) but I translated it with simple English anyway:Ma Long, the latest men-single winner in Asian games, has beaten lots of top players in the world. Characteristic of his game is obvious - very good at initiating attack, fast and firece, consistent and powerful when he is attacking and counter-attacking from close to mid table. His footwork is reasonable in mid-table, also his forehand loop has good arc, speed, power, placement, which make his technique structure complete. His backhand from mid to far away from table is relatively weak, therefore, Ma Long always tries to use forehand to attack after playing passively on backhand. Furthermore, to avoid his own weakness, he will initate attack on 3rd ball to put pressure on opponent, and he will counterloop the 4th ball when receiving. We can say that Ma Long's offensive mind leads to his active style, and his forehand has made up for his weaker backhand to an extent. His backhand is a threat when playing close to the table. Ma Long's "All-round" offensive technique is a nightmare of every player. I will keep translating the rest before I fall asleep  (0044 in UK!) |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 7:47pm
You cannot win on only service or touch. Strokes are very important. If you do not have any strokes, you will surely lose the game. A player with simple service and excellent strokes are much better than a player without any strokes. The player without good strokes will make errors on returning long services and the other player will be free to attack.
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Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 8:21pm
Awesome, and thank you. I, and others I'm sure, are very grateful for whatever efforts you can put into translation.  ------------- Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80 |
Posted By: hclnnkhg
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 8:45pm
Thank you for your appreciation. Here is the first introduced technique: Ma Long's forehand powerlooping backspin (Top yellow box) Powerlooping backspin is the most common attacking method, and it is one of the most powerful forehand technique. As it is powerloop, the advantage of power must be emphasised; pratically, the arc should be low, the ball should have decent amount of topspin, and with flexible placement, we can achieve maximum output. But many TT-lovers focus too much on power, the stroke is too big, which desrupt the harmony between arm and body, leads to decrease in consistency. When we are powerlooping, we should focus on controlling the arc and the placement of the ball, then we increase the power if, and only if we are consistent. On the other hand, although powerlooping is powerful, recovering is also important. we should control our swing and ensure body weight is able, so we can recover quickly. (Caption in Picture 5) Right foot is pushing the ground, the body starts to lean forward (Caption in Picture 6) Close the bat slightly, keep it stable, hit the lower part of the mid-top of the ball Forearm is not moving a lot, use your arm primarily Left foot steps forward using the force generated when body moves forward (Caption in Picture 7) Close the forearm to make the arc shorter Left foot pushs the floor to stop the body from hitting the table (Caption in Picture 8) Waist should turn enough so power of whole body can be used (White box in bottom-right corner) (Red text) Footwork is imporant, find the precise hitting point before you swing, then makes your stroke bigger (Black text) These picture shows Ma Long doing the stroke. In picture 1, when Ma Long moved from backhand corner to forehand corner, he kept his body very low, his legs were bent, and his upper body was leaning forward. In picture 2, Ma Long back-swinged when his right foot moved. There are 2 main points: firstly, the step should not be too small or too big, so he can hit the ball at the most reasonable point; secondly, don't back-swing too much before the body is at the position, because the upper-body should be relaxed; Moreover, it would be easier to deal with a short ball, net ball or edge ball. Amateur players' biggest problem is their huge swing, it will only makes the stroke out of control. In picture 4, Ma Long started to swing faster after he was in the right position. His arm was fully stretched. His right foot pushed the floor to make the body move forward. It is crucial to use the force during the body is moving forward in a powerloop. Amateur players also use the power from the twist of the waist, sometimes they jump up when they hit the ball. It will increase the quality of the stroke, but this motion has a disadvantage: if the coming ball is not very fast, or it has a short arc, or anticipation is not precise enough, then we can't use the power of the coming ball, therefore consistency and effect of powerlooping will decrease greatly. So, before we do this storke, we should stand a little bit away from the table, and we should lean forward when we hit the ball. (Red text) at the hitting moment, hitting it more forward, close your forearm, control the arc (Black text) Theoritically, to increase the speed of ball, we need to increase the forward force. Although lots of amateur players know that, but they still have prolems in matches. Firstly, does increasing forward force means more "hitting" Secondly, does the wrist come in when we powerloop? and thirdly, how much should we close our forearm? I believe we can find some answers from the motion of Ma Long. In picture 5, Ma Long's left foot stepped forward, body leaned forward, using the power when the body moved forward. His bat was close but not much. In picture 6, his bat angle was stable, hitting the lower part of the mid-top of the ball. Brushing is essential, as the ball comes with backspin, we must overcome it. but when we actually do the stroke, we can feel more hitting than brushing. Because we need to generate power/speed, therefore hitting more will give better effect. Also, portion of brushing depends on the height and the spin of the coming ball. Usually the backspin is not very strong if it is pushed, so we don't need to brush a lot. Also, we need to hit the ball at its highest point, with too much brushing, the ball will go over the table. In picture 5-6, it was obvious that Ma Long was generating a forward force, in order to increase the power and speed of the ball. In picture 4, we can see Ma Long's wrist was moving outwards; in picture 7 and 9, his wrist was moving inwards, this means he used wrist. As we hit more than brush in a powerloop, wrist movement is critical for controlling the arc. The movement should not be too big, but quick in a sudden, to increase the spin of the ball. In picture 6-8, Ma Long's forearm movement was obvious. It is mainly for transmitting power from the body to the ball, and controlling the length of arc. The forearm movement can be separated into two parts: at the moment of hitting the ball, the movement was limited, he used mostly his upper arm; just after hitting the ball, the forearm movement increased, so forward force was reduced, and the arc was shortened. This is very important when looping close to the table. Picture 9-10 shows how Ma Long recovered. His left foot pushed the floor to stop the body from hitting the table; At the same time his arm relaxed, but he kept his body relatively tight. I am going to sleep now, this task will take hours! I will continue tomorrow  |
Posted By: TT_haru
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 8:54pm
 ,understandable. The translation will take hours, not to mention, sometime it is very difficult to find the exact english phrase to explain what was written in Chinese ...
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 10:55pm
This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread. It's amazing how you, as an assistant moderator can be so discouraging to people who are genuinely trying to contribute to the forum. If you have so much knowledge and wisdom about TT, why not produce something helpful for other members of this forum, like producing tutorials through video/articles? I am genuinely speechless.  ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 11:05pm
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hclnnkhg, thanks for all your efforts! ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: Jolan
Date Posted: 01/06/2011 at 11:49pm
I am very much surprised about what the author tries to present his findings as facts. He thinks ML BH from mid to far distance is "relatively weak" and by that explains why he turns over his BH to play his strong FH. Well, isn't what they ALL do ? They are tought to play that way and ML makes no exception. My opinion is quite at the opposite. I find Ma Long BH to be exceptionnally good, close, mid and far distance. All top chineses have a strong and powerfull FH, excellent footwork, extensive training. So how come Ma Long is N°1 ? I think it is because of his superior BH skills. I remember seeing him as world junior N°1. His FH had nothing exceptionnal compared to his team mates. It wasn't as powerful as it is now. Still he was ahead. ------------- Joola Wyzaryz Freeze Vega pro 2.0mm Vega intro 2.0mm Blade collection : https://photos.app.goo.gl/PrgCu5ib5RnhVXTn9" rel="nofollow - https://photos.app.goo.gl/PrgCu5ib5RnhVXTn9 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 4:29am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: hclnnkhg
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 5:45am
I agree with you because WLQ backhand is what we call 'relatively weak' to forehand Ma Long's forehand isn't THAT exceptional. |
Posted By: hclnnkhg
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 6:37am
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Attacking half-long balls at wide forehand (Yellow box) Looping half-long balls is a difficult technique, it is difficult because precise determination of the coming ball is required as well as a correct motion. We hesitate when we are determining whether the coming ball is short or half-long. It is hard to do the loop even it feels like attackable. So amateur player pushes half-long balls much more frequently. But when the level of play improves, it is hard to stop your opponent's attack by controlling. Therefore better players will play half-long balls more aggressively, with various technique. Even if the ball is actually short, they can adjust quickly. Phsychologically, players tends to think pushing half-long ball on backhand is reasonable; if it is on forehand, players would attack if the ball is rather high, but they would push the ball as well; But they are determined to attack if the ball is going wide on forehand side. Below we analysed Ma Long's motion to find some of his techniques about dealing half-long balls at wide forehand. (Caption in picture 5) When moving, right foot steps a little bit inwards (Caption in picture 6) Right shoulder goes downwards, arm relaxs and opens (Caption in picture 7) Hit the ball above the table level (Caption in picture 8) Hit upward and forward (White box) (Red text) Stay close to the table, reduce your swing (Black text) Moving into the position is the first thing when returning ball at wide forehand. But in a match we hit the ball without really into position mostly, because we will be slower than we expected when we move. We should try to get ourselves close to the right position. When we are moving to wide forehand, our foot should exert a force rather parallel to the floor. We shall not push the floor too much, as it will make us 'jump' in the air, and we will not move sideway enough. When moving to forehand side, right foot should step forward a little bit, makes the body stays close to the table. In picture 4-6, Ma Long's backswing motion was small, only his right shoulder went downwards, his arm was relaxed, so he could find the best contact point. If his swing was too big, or his body was away from the table, he could only hit the ball when it was dropping, which is too late for looping. Also, if the ball is short, even we want to push it, we won't have enough time to adjust. Here I want to explain that we can attack short ball as well as long ball. What we need to do is hit the ball at its peak. Therefore it is important to stay close to the table when moving. (Red text) Hit the ball just after its peak, more brushing, focus on hitting the ball forward (Black text) It is difficult to hit a ball at wide forehand at its peak, we usually hit it just after its peak. In picture 6-7, Ma Long swinged a little bit earlier to try to catch the ball at its peak. Most TT-lovers are used to wait until the ball goes over the table, therefore they can only hit the ball when it is dropping close to the edge of the table. As the power of the coming ball is weak, they have to generate their own power, plus they need to open the bat and brush upwards to produce an arc, they will miss a lot; Even the ball lands, it is a weak ball that opponents can easily counter-attack. When Ma Long looped, his timing was earlier than normal, such that he could hit the ball just after its peak, using the power of the coming ball. In picture 8, Ma Long brushed hard up-forward with all his power, at the same time his snap his forearm. There is little movement in waist when looping half-long balls, the arm plays the main role. Faster arm movement will increase brushing and control of the arc. Some players only use arm movement when doing this stroke to improve consistency, but the loop will be weaker. Amateur players should learn the feel with arm movement first, then they can add waist and wrist movement to increase the threat of the loop. Ma Long brushed sufficiently when looping, and he also focus on generating a forward force, so his loop was fast. In picture 6, Ma Long's arm was very low. In picture 7 we can see that he lifted the bat up vertically. In picture 8, his arm was moving horizontally. If we only brush vertically, the arc will be too high and too long; if we only hit horizontally, we may hit the edge of the table, and brushing may not be sufficient. In order to increase brushing, Ma Long added wrist movement which was shown in picture 5-9. We should look closely to those. |
Posted By: balldance
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 11:51am
Awesome!! Thanks so much. I found this article extremely useful as I have problem with these half-long balls. |
Posted By: dragon kid
Date Posted: 01/07/2011 at 12:04pm
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Great find.. After seeing those pictures, I don't think I can emulate Long's technique at all. It is too perfect, those strokes requires perfect execution, timing and lotssss of speed and power. I don't think I can achieve that without training it for at least a few hours every day, which is something that I am not in liberty to do..  These technique is more for the young aspiring TT athletes than me.. ------------- 'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody' |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/08/2011 at 12:37am
I don't think what you're said is constructive at all. From what you've said, we should not even bother about improving our stroke play? If you think the stroke play of Ma Long, Wang Hao, Zhang Jike, Timo Boll or Samsonov is the same as the stroke play of WR 50-100 players, you're just sadly mistaken. The power, control and stability of their "stroke play" is just on a completely different level. Besides, this article is not just stroke play, it involves delicate skills like the BH sidespin loop, BH flick, and FH loop off half long balls. These are definitely not just "stroke" play. Anyway, this article is definitely not for those who lack basic FH/BH fundamentals. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/08/2011 at 1:07am
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Things I've learnt from this article: FH loop-kill against underspin Even if it's a loop-kill, the follow-through has to be high. Just hit it like a slow loop, except harder. FH loop against half-long balls Contact the ball earlier and over the table! I've never thought of this before, going to try it! FH counterloop The basis of the FH counterloop is the active block against topspin(正手快带）. Ma Long contacts the ball at about 45 degrees closed, not 90 degree as i once thought. The force should go mainly forward not upwards. And focus more on brushing not hitting! BH sidespin flick The secret to having power in the stroke： The straightening of the back! BH flick Aim for the lower part of the ball. By making the follow-through more compact(making a sudden stop to the movement after hitting the ball), you have more control and more power. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 01/08/2011 at 1:27am
I wonder who could be fast enough to dig that thread on its way to limbo? Let's see if I can beat everybody. ------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: ichini
Date Posted: 01/08/2011 at 1:29am
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blahness,you got the BH sidespin flick and BH flick totally wrong,first,yr BH sidespin flick is not a flick,its actually a over the table loop,and yr BH flick,we don't hit or brush the underneath,just that Ma Long style is different,he does that to confuse his opponent,he is actually hitting/brushing the top of the ball,if you look carefully,you'll notice the difference,if we aim for the lower part of the ball,it'll be pushing.just my 2c ------------- Timo Boll ALC Hurricane 3 NEO National Blue Sponge Tenergy 64 My forever setup,I'm in a National Team but don't join any tournaments,too bad,no rating at all :( |
Posted By: Krantz
Date Posted: 01/08/2011 at 3:55am
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 1:04am
You're completely right... ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: ichini
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 1:09am
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i'm sorry if i offended you blahness,but i'm just correcting you,not criticizing you ------------- Timo Boll ALC Hurricane 3 NEO National Blue Sponge Tenergy 64 My forever setup,I'm in a National Team but don't join any tournaments,too bad,no rating at all :( |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 1:16am
The reply above was honest, not sarcastic... :) Thanks for the correction ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 9:54am
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I think that from a certain point, the main issue to train is keeping the house together. I mean moving legs with arms to get the position to develop the stroke. Thinking more about legs than strokes. About the bh, the main tip is to keep the elbow not far from the body moving the forearm and using the wrist. In some pictures it seems that the elbow is moving but that happens just in the approach part of the stroke. ------------- EJ Club. MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 10:19am
Kenneyy88, I think you misread. APW is stating that FOR THE TOP 100, stroke technique is already so refined that it is not the differentiator in matches. Certainly at lower levels the quality and effectiveness of strokes may distinguish playing ability quite a bit. But the game is complex enough that it is still more about level and understanding of the game than what the mechanics look like. At one of my clubs the player with some of the best (and most textbook) technique (1 year of drilling FH and BH topspin, ready position) is only about US900. The US1500-1600 players can't say enough good things about how solid his strokes look. And he gives several US1100 players fits. But some of the US1200-1300 players frequently just serve him off the table and prevent him from using his strokes effectively. Level makes more difference than strokes. Similarly, I recently watched a US2300 player serve (and serve return) a US1900 player off the table. No rallies required. It was irrelevant that the US1900 player had better stroke mechanics; the US2300 player simply understood and executed the game at a different level and could execute.
That's not what he said at all. He said the Top 100 don't win by having better stroke play. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 10:32am
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This is another great technique thread! Thanks for the pics blahness and the translation hclnnkhg!
------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: liXiao
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 12:25pm
| Has anyone not noticed that World TT (both the chinese and japanese version) publish stories like these every month? I've seen them with Wang Liqin, Zhang Yining, Kan Yo, Yoshida Kaii, and im sure plenty that more I haven't seen. |
Posted By: dragon kid
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 1:00pm
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I am pretty sure I have seen articles on Joo Se Hyuk and Wang Liqin..
------------- 'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody' |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 1:42pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1v_Twhp12M - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1v_Twhp12M ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 3:56pm
| ^ No no thing wrong, but TT fans like to learn from famous top players, as opposed to unknown junior players. I get your point is they have the same strokes as Ma long, which is probably true, but it doesn't have anything to do with this thread. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 4:56pm
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: TT_haru
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 6:20pm
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I think the thread is for those who struggles with some of the techniques shown, for example, don't know or couldn't execute a proper 'Backhand's flip". If one has believe he has mastered the techniques, then probably this has no value to that person ...
BTW, it was taken from 'Table Tennis World', a magazine read by millions of "crazy" table tennis loving people (just like us or at least for me
 ) who reckon we can never be like 'ma long' but at least "mature" our techniques ... |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 01/09/2011 at 7:08pm
Because they are more of fans than players? If that magazine feature Gu Yuting to demonstrate the same techniques, I bet the sales are gonna drop... |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/10/2011 at 7:10am
Try booking Ma long for an hours coaching.........get my drift? ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 01/10/2011 at 11:41pm
No one here can afford Ma Long coaching. That's why they look at a magazine to try to learn his technique. It makes them feel like being coached by him. This is what this thread is all about... |
Posted By: hclnnkhg
Date Posted: 01/11/2011 at 5:59pm
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A bit late but I hope you enjoy it Forehand Counterlooping in mid-table
(Yellow box) Forehand counterlooping is an advanced technique which develops from forehand active blocking. Counterlooping is essential from professional players; It can greatly improves amateur player's game as well. It is an main weapon to turn defence to attack. Forehand Counterlooping has 7 main requirements: 1. Precise determination about spin and placement of the coming ball 2. body must be in position 3. Hit the ball in front of body 4. Control the swing, avoid a very big stroke 5. Hit the ball just after its peak 6. Focus on hitting the ball forward 7. increase brusing to produce arc.
Most amateur players hit the ball too long when counterlooping because they generate too much upward force without enough brusing, which cannot overcome topspin on the coming ball. Also the swing is too big, the contact point is rather behind the body, so an arc is difficult to produce.
Ma Long's forehand counterlooping is excellent because his determination is great, and his stroke has a lot of control. Counterlooping is his biggest advantage.
(Caption in picture 4): Start lower when counterlooping; Twist the waist for enough room
(Caption in picture 5): Close the bat and brush the mid-top of the ball
(Caption in picture 6): Contract forearm to shorten the arc; Use the power from waist
(Caption in picture 7): Body weight moves from right to left, use left foot to stablise the body
(White box)
(Red text) Higher body, smaller swing
(Black text) A topspin ball usually has a higher arc, so we need to lift our body as well. Ball with topspin will also 'kick' after hitting the table, therefore a smaller swing can ensure that we can hit the ball appropiately.
In picture 2 and 3, Ma Long's body weight was higher than attacking backspin, his right shoulder was higher as well. Arm will be relaxed if right shoulder is low. It is easier to adjust shoulder movement when attacking backspin, because backspin ball are uually low and spinny. When facing topspin, we would think the arc is high, then we will forget to 'sink' our shoulder, which is no good. In picture 3, we can see Ma Long's backswing was low, but it didn't mean the contact point was low. When opponent doesn't attack strongly, we can slightly increase the swing because we will have enough time to do so. Ma Long raised his bat in picture 4 to ensure enough forward force can be generated.
Starting height is critical when counterlooping. If we start too low, we will produce too much upward force which will make the ball go over the table; if we start too high, we will miss the ball.
(Red text) Close bat angle, generate more forward force, contract forearm
Ma Long's upper-body did not lean forward in picture 4, but he was twisting his waist. Because the coming ball was relatively fast, and Ma Long was at mid-table, he would not be able to do the full swing if he leaned forward. Furthermore, as the swing should be small when counterlooping, we need to use the power from the body, so twisting waist is important. In picture 5, Ma Long's bat was close, its purpose was overcoming topspin on the ball by increasing brushing. Amateur players would open the bat too much, which will makes the ball go too far if the coming ball has lots of topspin. In picture we can also see Ma Long was really hitting the ball forward. If we can use the power on the ball when we counterloop, it will make it more difficult for your opponent. That's why we need to hit the ball just after its peak. In picture 6-7, Ma Long did 2 important movement: 1. transfter of body weight 2. contracting forearm. 1 increased the speed, 2 increased the spin of the ball. Consistency is the first thing we need to consider when we counterloop.
We should develop counterlooping from active blocking. Active blocking involves only forearm and wrist movement, so it is easier. After we master active blocking we can try to add power from the body, and we can counterloop as long as we find the appropiate contact point. |
Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 01/11/2011 at 6:37pm
It can happen a very good player would not be a very good coach. ------------- EJ Club. MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/12/2011 at 7:54am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Fruit loop
Date Posted: 01/12/2011 at 8:37am
By copying a style and technique often assists in making the substance and quality of shot improve as well. If this type of documentation was readily available in the rest of the world, i would bet the general standard of the game would improve also. ------------- Timo Boll Spirit FL Dr Evil ox both sides. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/12/2011 at 12:32pm
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Its easy to copy an end result, and have aesthetically something resembling that, but it will only be aesthetical, which is fine if that is what you want, but you have to ask yrself why trully great players have their own signature style that is shaped over years around their game and physical attributes. Does Henzell look like anyone else Fruity? No he only looks like Henzell....I agree that players in all sports copy their icons, but the players who advance to higher levels are moulded out of it.
Who have been the most successful home grown USA players in the last 30 yrs? Tim Boggan and Danny Seemillar, Boy have they got their own styles, but they are consistent competent sportsmen who are successful because they conqured the complete aspects of what makes a good player, and copying the world champion is just about as elementary as you can get. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: hclnnkhg
Date Posted: 01/12/2011 at 6:33pm
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Backhand sidespin flick
(Yellow box) Backhand sidespin flick is not a unusual technique, almost every shakehand looper has learned this technique already. It is commonly used in receiving serves, but rarely in consecutive pushes. It is because this backhand sidespin flick relys on power on the coming ball. It is easier to do sidespin flick when the coming ball has side-back spin.
The properties of the spin and placement of this stroke are tricky. But the power of the ball is relatively weak, and placement is limited. If your opponent attack uncompromisingly, you are in trouble. We can see that in the recent Asian game Men single final: Ma Long always used a side-step counterloop against Wang Hao's sidespin flick. But it is still very useful for amateur players, sometime it can score directly even.
When we use backhand sidespin flick we need to be prepared for continuous attack, and we also need to recover quickly for the next stroke.
(Caption in picture 5): Contract abdomen so there will be enough room for back-swing
(Caption in picture 6): Lot of wrist movement for enough power; elbow points to right, so forearm can be flexible
(Caption in picture 7): Forearm moves with elbow as axis; slightly open bat angle, contact mid-left of the ball
(Caption in picture 8): Straighten abdomen to release power from the body; feet should make the body weight stable
(White box)
(Red text) light steps, stable body weight, contract abdomen, enough back-swing
(Black text) Rhythm should be slow and steady when doing backhand sidespin flick. Amateur players flick too rapid, which disrupt the rhythm. In picture 1-3, Ma Long's steps were short, and his upper body was relatively straight, so his body weight was stable. Amateur players miss the rhythm not only because they are too rapid, but also due to their positioning ---- they often side-step when receiving serves, so they need to adjust when they want to do backhand stroke. It will make the body too close to the table, and miss the right contact point.
In picture 4-6, Ma Long was contracting his abdomen really tight, and slightly raised his arm, for enough space for back-swing. His wrist movement was very big especially in picture 6. These motions were all for better brushing. We need to highlight spin in backhand sidespin flick, to make it more difficult for oppoents. We need to keep the bat horizontal in back-swing. Some player would make the bat vertical because they want to brush the side of the ball, but it will limit the release of power from the wrist.
(Red text) Match abdomen movement wih arm movement
(Black text) In picture 7-9, Ma Long's sidespin flick was rather powerful, his abdomen was straight to release power from the body. His forearm was moving forward with the the elbow as the axis when hitting the ball, and his wrist was turning to brush the ball. In picture 7, Ma Long contacted the ball at mid-left, but this was closer to center, because Ma Long was highlighting topspin rather than sidespin, which matched with Ma Long's style.
Amateur players should focus on straightening abdomon. From picture 7-9 we can see that when Ma Long straightened his abdomen he looked like he was crouching. On the other hand, he used his legs to keep the body weight stable. Amateur players should learn this motion to feel how to use power from the body efficiently.
It was obvious that Ma Long generated most forward force from his arm motion. Even his wrist was trying to hit/brush forward. Most amateur player generate sideward force in order to increase sidespin. But it will reduce forward force at the same time, which make the ball slower and easier for opponent. If we want power and spin at the same time, we could adjust wrist and forearm movement: forearm mainly generate forward force, while wrist motion produce the spin. But it takes more time to learn.
In picture 8, Ma Long's wrist sopped after hitting the ball, so the power would be released in a instant. If the wrist is loose and turn too much we will lose control.
In picture 9-10, his stomping helped him to shorten his follow through motion, so he can recover to ready position quickly. That's what we call good tactical mind. We should be ready for topspin rally after doing the flick.
Amateur players can stand a little bit further away from the table and hit the ball at its peak. They should add abdomen motion after mastering wrist and forearm movement. Also they should avoid too much hitting (compare to brushing). Spin is the first priority when doing backhand sidespin flick. |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 01/12/2011 at 6:48pm
| Abdomen use? Anyone can shed more light on this? |
Posted By: TT_haru
Date Posted: 01/12/2011 at 9:26pm
| As what was mentioned, the abdomen was contract so that there will be more room to guide the racket for the "twisted loop". See how much he twists his arm? And when he did the swing, the contracted abdomen was relax. So basically as u guide the racket and pull back to the "twisted" position, u contract your abdomen and as you releases your swing, you relax your abdomen to a straighten stage. The use of abdomen is important for amateur. As what was mentioned, for the start, they can stand a bit further and have "feel" of the forearm & wrist movement. After that, includes the use of abdomen ... |
Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 01/13/2011 at 12:01am
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Thanks for all the hardwork translating. If only there were slow motion clips to accompany the articles.
I believe it is helpful to observe other people's technique, experiment, and adopt, if one's strokes are already fundamentally sound.
Yes, in the end, putting all elements aside that can be identified and quantified, it comes down to natural abilities with which a player is endowed. With regard to the aspect of pure stroke production, however, there is potential for improvement just by adopting better techniques. Even at the highest level of the sport, some players hit better shots than their peers for observable reasons, which, as long as they don't involve prerequisites like having a double-jointed thumb, the physical movements involved should be attainable to a certain degree with methodical practice.
My point is, don't look at someone with good strokes and just resort to think it's all talent or natural abilities; there is always something there that can be learned and put to your own use to some degree. Don't stop until the only obstacle to further improvement is the stuff you're made of. You won't have perfect shots, but at least have the best technique your body allows.
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Posted By: hclnnkhg
Date Posted: 01/13/2011 at 10:49am
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LAST PART! Backhand “flipping flick”
(Yellow box) Backhand “flipping flick” is a threatening technique which is Ma Long's special trick. “Flipping flick” is actually a flick with fake pushing motion. It often surprises the opponent.
It is not a new technique, but it is not common either because it is difficult to hit and brush enough in a short time. Although this technique can surprise opponents, but its lack of power and spin would give opponents chance to counter-attack if they step backward slightly.
Ma Long usually do this flick when opponents push the ball short, because short pushes are not likely to have strong spin, so “flipping flick” can be done consistently. “Flipping flick” requires a lot more forearm and wrist movement than sidespin flick. Amateur players can reference the motion of forehand flick when learning this technique.
Brushing is important when flicking because it is necessary to overcome the backspin on the coming ball.
(Caption in picture 5) Open the bat slightly, aiming the mid-bottom of the ball; lower the body
(Caption in picture 6) Shoulder move forward slightly; close the bat and hit the mid-top of the ball; forearm move forward with elbow as axis
(Caption in picture 7) Wrist turn right and up, more brushing, keep the arc low
(Caption in picture 8) relax arm and recover; right foot stomp the floor to make body moves backwards
(White box)
(Red text) lower the body, upper-body lean forward; wrist turn downwards, aim for mid-bottom of the ball
(Black text) Before Ma Long did the backhand “flipping flick”, his body was very low just like when he's pushing; but his stand was firmer and lower than pushing the ball. Ma Long stepped forward slightly before his hit the ball . It can lower the body and the eye sight, so the contact point can be more precise. Also a firm stand can ensure quick recovery.
In picture 1-4, Ma Long's motion was exactly the same as he was pushing. Most of his body weight was lying on right leg, therefore his right leg was bent, and it made his body steady. On the other hand, his body and his bat kept a fair distance from the coming ball, so he could have enough time to flick. This is distinctive to a push. When pushing, contact with the ball was usually made just after its bounce, so the power of the coming ball can be used.
In picture 4, Ma Long's wrist turned downwards, bat was opened and aimed at mig-bottom of the ball, there built up power. This motion was also different to a push. If it is a push, the wrist will turn upwards for more brushing. Amateur players can use this to determine your opponent's stroke.
Although we can see the differences between push and flick in these pictures, in fact it only happens at an instant, so it is still difficult to determine what Ma Long's gonna do.
(Red text)Close your bat slightly, hit the ball with power from the wrist
(Black text) Picture 5-7 showed when Ma Long hit the ball. In picture 5, his bat was slightly opened. Then it became slightly closed in picture 6. The turning of wrist will naturally brush the ball from bottom to top, create some topspin; at the same time forearm generated a forward force to drive the ball forward. In picture 7, his wrist moved rapidly to up right to lower the arc. Wrist movement was the crucial part in “flipping flick”.
When practicing “flipping flick”, amateur players should focus on: 1. open the bat and aim for mid-bottom of the ball before contact 2. Keep the body low throughout and stomp the floor by right foot 3. Make contact when the ball is at its peak or just after its peak 4. Wrist should turn inside sufficiently before hitting the ball, but follow through shall be kept short 5. Do not close the bat too much, aim for mid-top of the ball 6. Adjust wrist motion according to the spin of the coming ball e.g. if the ball has strong backspin, wrist should move more upward to overcome it 7. Do not open forearm fully to increase consistency.
Backhand “flipping flick” should be done in a sudden for it to be effective. Amateur players should build this technique from backhand looping over the table. In practical, we can combine backhand looping, backhand “flipping flick” and backhand sidespin flick together, make it more difficult for opponents. |