Deceptive Looping
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Topic: Deceptive Looping
Posted By: 2wingloop
Subject: Deceptive Looping
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 6:21am
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Hey guys, I ve been looping for quite a while now about a year and a half and have become pretty good/consistent with looping now...... Can generate loads of spin in the loop and decent speed..........
But now that im playing against way stronger opponents,im learning that consistent,spinny /very spinny loops are not just enough....... but a good amount of disguise and decepton is needed to throw him off the guard!
I mean the art of looping such that it looks like ur gonna hit it to one side but hit it to the other....
So,if any of u have any advice/tips or links to any videos/tips etc, it would be really helpful!  ------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Replies:
Posted By: Ndragon88
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 7:05am
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Similar ish to my FH. I dont hit hard so i rely on my spin and placement. U will learn the angles quickly when playing better opponents. One good one to always add in is the side/top spin shot from the FH. Makes u achieve a very wide angle. Mixed with good spin they can be very difficult to return if the player doesnt read it correctly
------------- Stiga Clipper Skyline TG3 NEO/Palio Thors www.youtube.com/ndragon88 |
Posted By: 2wingloop
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 7:16am
I am these days forced to hit wider and wider angles against stronger opponents ....dont mix enough sidespin though.....gotta try that!!
But the main thing i was lookin for was how to make ur loop look deceptive......
And Ndragon88 since u rely on spin too....while hitting very spinny loops,usually the ball breaks(spins) off away from me when blocked softly and sometimes i miss while trying to loop again...... does this happen with u too..?
If so any tips ? ------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Ndragon88 wrote:Posted By: Ndragon88
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 8:04am
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yes haha happens to be often. I just posted a new edit of myself up here. watch it and u will see how many times that happens. I think the only tips i can give (im currently reviewing my game) is that when u give heavy topspin and its blocked back u dont have to re spin it. instead u just drive it hard. Another (if u have enough time) is to hit different spots on the blade head. for example. Hit the very centre sometimes and other times try and connect at the side. It will give more spin that the centre but it looks like a very similar shot. Often will the opponent read it wrong or react too late giving u a slightly easier shot to play against Hope that helped ------------- Stiga Clipper Skyline TG3 NEO/Palio Thors www.youtube.com/ndragon88 |
Posted By: 2wingloop
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 8:29am
Hey thanks for the inputs man......... !!
Im generally more loop happy than driving ........ but then again i guess driving that blocked ball is a better option! Will try drving it even though my drive is nt as consistent as my loop! Anyways i will be playing in the night so will try and tell u how it goes------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 10:54am
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2wingloop, looks like you've summarized 2 issues. 1. Your loop is consistent, but against better players, you get consistent response and can't win points just because you loop anymore. 2. Your opponents don't block the loop all the time, they counter - and they counter with sidespin that makes the returned ball kick on you. You're not seeing the sidespin or not following it, so you're trying to learn deception in order to prevent the opponents from returning your loop. Well, I have some advice for you. Don't work on deception quite yet. Use the opponents skills as the means of training. As you get better, you will find that better players are capable of returning a deceptive shot as well. So it won't automatically guarantee a winner. Like NDragon said, you must instead use placement. I have a feeling that your shots are returned because they are predictable - they always go to the same spot. You must learn to vary placement and depth ( where the ball bounces on the table ). Once you learn placement, deception will become an easier skill to learn because you will not worry about missing the table, you will have placement experience to land the shot. Regarding opponent's responses and counter loops, there is more to looping outside of consistency. Footwork is something vital. I have a feeling that you're missing those counter loops because after your loop, you do not move. Remember, that you need to move away on opponents counter loops, but make sure to move away just enough to take the ball on top of the bounce or slightly after on a long shot and move in to the table on short shots and take the ball before the top of the bounce or at the top of the bounce the latest. ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 10:54am
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You can setup as though you will hit inside out and then contact the ball earlier to hit down the middle or on the diagonal. There's something called a fake loop. Your swing and effort level should look like that of a regular loop, except they both belie how relatively little topspin there actually is on the ball. Theoretically, when your opponent blocks the ball, it will go into the net because he has overcompensated for the topspin which is not there. I don't know how well this can work, because experienced players can distinguish the kind of shot by the sound of your contact and the trajectory of your shot. You can always use what the Chinese call the "quick carry" against loops. It's essentially an abbreviated loop, executed over the table, brushing the ball on the rise. Alternate this with your regular loop to upset your opponent's timing. The more difficult thing to do, I guess, is alternating the length of your loops to land short with a lot of spin or land deep with plenty of speed and/or spin, while not hitting the ball too high over the net to give your opponent less time to react. |
Posted By: Ndragon88
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 11:41am
Don't use that shot all the time. Just something for u to try so u can mix up the game a little. Good luck :)
+1 Also when u get to a higher level u will definitely find people can return shots a whole lot easier. And spin alone just doesnt cut it. You NEED speed and power in ur shots. A little spin can be sacrificed for more speed which i think is essential at a higher level of table tennis. This is my biggest problem when playing better people. Without my angles and decent serves i dont think i would be able to compete with them.
------------- Stiga Clipper Skyline TG3 NEO/Palio Thors www.youtube.com/ndragon88 |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 11:57am
 ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 01/20/2011 at 9:39pm
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You can add in flat hitting after a spinny opening loop to keep your return fast and powerful but deceptive and if hit back has a good chance of going in to the net.
------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 01/21/2011 at 2:19am
this is going to be very hard to execute if you're not used to it. first you need footwork to get into the right position where you can hit either side with a nice drive. then the tricky part is a mix of timing and the angle if your wrist. by playing around with this you can pretty much hit down the line and also cross corner with a nearly identical swing motion. ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: 2wingloop
Date Posted: 01/21/2011 at 2:22am
@Leshxa:Hey thanks for the great piece of advice man........ 
As u rightly put it footwork is one area i need to really work on now to get to the next level!!
And abt the "counter with sidespin", generally even when i play with players of my level , when i load a loop with very heavy spin, even on a normal block,the ball breaks away.........
But incidentally yesterday,i was trying to play more of a drive than a loop for that shot(as per NDragon88 s suggestion)......and guess what i was able to return most of them!!
 And i can place the loop pretty decently but gotta start workin on the depth !
------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Posted By: 2wingloop
Date Posted: 01/21/2011 at 2:26am
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@Ndragon88:Hey played yest for quite a while..... and i was frankly surprised by how well i could drive .
Have nt been driving for a while now....its been only heavy spinny loops and then a flat kill of a bad block! But yeah yest i was sacrificing spin for speed and driving the ball and it worked just fine.....
Yeah and wil def try to mix it up.....
Thanks again! ------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Posted By: 2wingloop
Date Posted: 01/21/2011 at 2:31am
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@tpgh2k & @racquetsforsale : Thanks for the inputs!! will try working on them!
@ Thaidog: Hey thats something i do!! but only off badly executed high blocks..... ------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Posted By: Ndragon88
Date Posted: 01/21/2011 at 10:31am
Im happy to hear it helped u out. The ball breaking away is probably most of ur spin if not all. Actually a perfect example for u is Chen Weixing. When someone gives Chen a lot of spin he will often just guide the ball back on the table. So if u are not confident with the spin on the ball when blocked back just guide it back. U will be surprised just how easy it is for u to place it where u want ------------- Stiga Clipper Skyline TG3 NEO/Palio Thors www.youtube.com/ndragon88 |
Posted By: Ashes
Date Posted: 01/21/2011 at 11:33am
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Hey 2wingloop, being able to hit loops constantly is a great place to be. Can you play with your timing? And by that I don't mean when you take the ball but when you start your swing. Because you can use two totally different strokes while taking the ball at the top of the bounce. One stroke would be starting the movement after the ball bounces on your side of the table but going at medium speed towards it and another would be waiting a bit more and swinging really fast - explosive movement. The first kind of stroke is very easy to predict while the second is extremely difficult without taking into account the fact that the loop will be both more spinny and faster. ------------- Blade: YEO FH: H3P BH: Pryde 40 |
Posted By: PanPong
Date Posted: 01/21/2011 at 10:48pm
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This thread was a bit different than what I expected. When I think of deceptive looping I imagine deception when imparting spin on the ball. Being able to vary the spin on your loops will catch a lot of inattentive players off-guard.
------------- The only good Atheist is a dead one - Anonymous |
Posted By: 2wingloop
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 2:35am
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@Ashes:Hey I kinda use the first kinda stroke that u mentioned...... but i dont think imo the second kinda stroke will have more spin....
Basically when looping a ball these are the points i remember....
1)Take the ball in front. (side-front)
2)Play with a closed blade angle. (more closed blade= more spin)
3)As short an action as possible!
@PanPong:Hey yeah......what u said also qualifies as deceptive looping...... but i ve kinda got that decption in my loops...... However thats why i had mentioned in the first post that deception as in aiming at one side and hitting at the other.... ------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 2:39am
| IMO a bigger back swing helps to conceal the direction of the loop. Like so your arm is pointing away from the table and you can hit down the line and cross court. |
Posted By: 2wingloop
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 3:02am
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@kenneyy88: Hmm......While a bigger swing might help disguise...... would nt it make it harder to get back in position and go for the next loop?! ------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 3:22am
| Yea there are tradeoffs of everything. Bigger stroke, you need to train a faster recovery. Also you need different lengths of backswings for different occasions. |
Posted By: Ashes
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 6:30am
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<<@Ashes:Hey I
kinda use the first kinda stroke that u mentioned...... but i dont think
imo the second kinda stroke will have more spin....>> The second stroke is more sudden and faster, therefore, swinging faster you will impart more spin (just like serving) and also the opponent will have less time to react. However, swinging faster doesn't mean more drive... you can still take it in front of the body, still with a closed bat and still very short arm movement. ------------- Blade: YEO FH: H3P BH: Pryde 40 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 6:59am
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I would think that you have arrived at the conclusion that your loop needs to be 'deceptive' because of your experience of playing stronger players and finding it hard to read where they are putting the ball. You are barking up the wrong tree, they are placing the ball where you least expect it because they have an awareness of where you are in relation to the table and simply have more time to play their shots, there is no simple technical detail that you can apply to enable you to be able to do this, it comes to you as you improve as a player to varying degrees of competence. When you are looping at better players, they always read you directionally because they are looking at your bat before you hit the ball, getting into really advanced play, players use last minute wrist variation to counter this, but you have to walk before you can run, what is the point of directionally based deception if you are not aware of where your opponent is? you might be playing the ball just where he wants it.Having said that, the most widely accepted method in technique for f/hand topspin deception is to have a good early backswing with your shoulder completely 90deg to the table, shaped up as if you are going to drive down the b/hand diagonal (always) to hook just contact slightly earlier, the stroke will look the same, unlike shaping up for a fade which is readable. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: 2wingloop
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 7:18am
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@APW46:Hey that indeed is a quite diff perspective....... So what do u think i must work on now in order to play upto their level...? ------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 7:23am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: 2wingloop
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 7:52am
What way should i go about reading the game? Any tips/points to lookout for would be great!! ------------- Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa JO Gold (FH)/Yasaka Mark V (BH) Stiga O.C WRB/Donic Coppa X1(Turbo) Platin(FH)/Xiom Vega Europe (BH) |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/24/2011 at 6:01pm
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You need to stop ball watching, especially in the short game (at the start of rallies) as soon as you have struck the ball, look straight at yr opponents bat, (don't watch your shot) pich the ball up as it hits your opponents bat. It gets impossible as the rally develops, but at the start this is easy. For instance, when I serve, I am looking at my opponents bat before he hits the ball, allways. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Ashes
Date Posted: 01/25/2011 at 8:47am
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You need to stop ball watching, especially in the short game (at the
start of rallies) as soon as you have struck the ball, look straight at
yr opponents bat, (don't watch your shot) pich the ball up as it hits
your opponents bat. It gets impossible as the rally develops, but at the
start this is easy. For instance, when I serve, I am looking at my
opponents bat before he hits the ball, allways. Do you watch the ball as it is coming towards you from the opponent? A coach told me to follow it with my peripheral vision but I noticed that some of the pros pay close attention to it. ------------- Blade: YEO FH: H3P BH: Pryde 40 |
Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 01/25/2011 at 11:13am
| It's ideal to track the ball as it comes towards you. Some follow the ball with their eyes for as long as humanly possible until they don't really see it anymore just before they contact the ball, but they still look at the approximate contact point. Others track the ball with their peripheral vision only, once it has crossed the net, and don't even look at the approximate contact point. That works only if you play enough and can judge the trajectory of the shot correctly to extrapolate the contact point. Kind of like when players serve: most stop tracking the ball at some point during its descent and don't look at the contact point. I think it's important not to move your head too much as you track the ball, because it is quite heavy and throws off your balance. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 01/26/2011 at 8:21am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: ppgear
Date Posted: 01/26/2011 at 1:27pm
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I don't think deception is important at all. The only time that I think it's particularly useful is on the third ball attack because usually the opponent is very close to the table from returning the serve, and you step in and blast it. Because it's such a short distance, they basically guess which side you're going to and will probably stick the racket out, hoping you smash/loop it right to where their racket is, so you go the other way. However in normal rallies, they are a few steps back from the table and thus have more time to react, so even if you go the other way they have time to get it. I think the real issue is just placement. A well-placed loop (even if they know exactly where it's going) is effective all the time. If you loop it so that it goes to their elbow, they won't be able to play a strong return (unless your loop is too slow so they can step around and be in good position to return it). As long as there is good pace on your loops and you're good at picking the right location to aim to, you should be fine. As others have said, aim for wide angles, and if the opponent is out of position just aim for the gap. And definitely aim for the playing elbow often. So I recommend that you work on: (a) increasing speed in your loop (b) consistency (c) aim Once you have those, remember to aim for wide angles and the elbow, and you're golden.
------------- Arthur Lui Revspin.net - Table Tennis Equipment Reviews Top USATT Rating: 2131 |