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Ma long lost

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Printed Date: 01/16/2019 at 1:21am


Topic: Ma long lost
Posted By: Nagatito
Subject: Ma long lost
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:10am
Ma long just lost to lee sang young at the korean open 4-1.



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Blade: Timo Boll ALC
FH: T05
BH: Roundell



Replies:
Posted By: Nagatito
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:11am
Sorry was lee sang su

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Blade: Timo Boll ALC
FH: T05
BH: Roundell


Posted By: silva7
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:18am
what is happening???? i hope Zhang Jike wins the Korean Open!!!

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RSM Special Platinum T64


Posted By: Nagatito
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:23am
Originally posted by silva7 silva7 wrote:

what is happening???? i hope Zhang Jike wins the Korean Open!!!


Me too. Maybe Ma Long is only focussed on the olympics or he is just having pressure for be the n1 the world and he loss

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Blade: Timo Boll ALC
FH: T05
BH: Roundell


Posted By: AllezCho
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:34am
Jia you Ma Lin!

Not being selected for a singles spot in the OG probably was a heavy blow to Ma Long's morale, and hence his poor results lately. His playing seems...sluggish almost. 


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Viscaria
T05/T64


Posted By: Nagatito
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:40am
But he already knew that he was only gonna be playing for the team event because hao and jike has chances to win hes grand slam

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Blade: Timo Boll ALC
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BH: Roundell


Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:54am
Ma Long was totally outplayed; forehand, backhand, service. Sang Su was on fire and had the whole stadium supporting him. Epic match.

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Posted By: mikepong
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 1:31am
Yeah he was outplayed.

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FH: Tenergy 05 black

BH: Tenergy 05 red





Posted By: AllezCho
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 1:47am
Originally posted by Nagatito Nagatito wrote:

But he already knew that he was only gonna be playing for the team event because hao and jike has chances to win hes grand slam

It doesn't matter if he "knew" he wasn't going to play singles. The fact that he won't be able to fight for an Olympic medal is still a tough mental blow for him. He is in fact currently ranked #1, and he certainly played that way over the last year, with an astonishing 94.6% win rate against all opponents and at one point, going undefeated for the most consecutive Pro Tour matches.  In 4 years at the next OG, Ma Long won't necessarily be at his physical peak anymore and there will be a new generation of Chinese players along with ZJK and XX ready to compete with him for the singles spot. Not being able to play singles in London must be pretty disheartening to him.  

Also, the argument that WH and ZJK were granted the singles only because they are within striking distance of completing a "Grand Slam," an unofficial title, is weak imo. LGL and the other CNT coaches ultimately chose WH/ZJK for singles due to strategic reasons--because they thought that WH and ZJK would be the most reliable players to win against international competition. Clearly, as demonstrated in this Korea Open, Ma Long is already caving into the pressure, something that LGL pointed out was one of the biggest flaws in Ma Long's game. 

And yes, Lee Sang Su played extremely well! Congrats to him!


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Viscaria
T05/T64


Posted By: ssiew968
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 2:28am
Recently Ma Long also lost to Koki Niwa. Did you see the match between Ma Lin and Koki. It was an easy win. Other than mental toughness, there is also another weakness in Ma Long's game. He doesn't have a special weapon that opened up the game in his favour. Ma Lin got fantastic service. Both Wang Hao and Jike got in-table backhand drive whenever opponents serve. Ma Long got a bit of those but not his main weapon. His main weapon is his forhand and counter loop. Opponent will study Ma Long's game and stop giving him direct opportunity. You cannot compare Ma Long result with his teammates. They know each other too well and thus always ended up in rallying game which to Ma Long's advantage due to his powerful forehand.
 
That's my analysis. But on the other hand, he is world #1 and really deserves his place in the Olympic single which unfortunately don't due to politics.
 
Cheers,
ssiew


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FH:Xiom Omega IV Pro Max
BH:Donic Acuda S1 Max
Butterfly Innerforce ZLC (flare)


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 2:29am
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Ma Long was totally outplayed; forehand, backhand, service. Sang Su was on fire and had the whole stadium supporting him. Epic match.
=======================================
 
Although the final result of the match was 4 to 1 with Ma Long won only one game, actually the match was almost 4 to 0.
 
Ma Long lucked out on that one game he won - he was behind 10 to 7.  He then saved 3 game-points to go into deuce, then again he saved one game-point during deuce.  Finally he pulled off and won that one game.  He was lucky not to get beat 4 to 0.
 
It seems anything can happen.  It was a huge upset nevertheless.
 


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skip3119


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 3:32am
The last time the two played was at last year's China Open and, seriously, Lee didn't stand a chance for good reasons.  He took the loss to heart and came back strong this time.  A large part of his upsetting Ma Long is attributed to his short game, he kept his receive low and tight, and also threw in the Chiquita receive from time to time.  A conscious effort was made to cover his wide forehand, so any flick coming across was well in check.  This alone leveled the playing ground.  Add to that Ma Long kept spilling out those half-long serves that begged for killing.  So nothing out of the blue here, Lee Sang Su forced his own game on Ma Long and he failed to respond.

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= 184.8g


Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 4:18am
Chinese coaches are trying to destroy Ma Long.  I believe he´s not feeling motivated and upset/dissapointed because of his discard for OG at singles event.

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Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 4:57am
The rest of the world have invested a lot of time and thought into finding flaws in the Chinese teams game lately. I have never expected China to win the Gold at the London games and find it even less likely the closer we get


Posted By: Vladovich
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 5:42am

Lee Sang Su lost to Chan Kazuhiro.

It is better for Ma Long to relax now since there is no Olympics for him, but he should target his form for the next year, much more important competition... Anyone can win the Olympics with a bit of luck, and that is why the Olympic tournament will be so interesting, but in the World Championship even entering first 8 will be extremely difficult...



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Posted By: Vladovich
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 5:50am

 

Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

The rest of the world have invested a lot of time and thought into finding flaws in the Chinese teams game lately.

I can only see that they invested into rule changes... 



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Tibhar Defense Plus

FH: Joola Phenix

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"The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be…unnatural."


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 5:59am
Originally posted by Vladovich Vladovich wrote:

 

Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

The rest of the world have invested a lot of time and thought into finding flaws in the Chinese teams game lately.

I can only see that they invested into rule changes... 



+1 lol

Olympic is huge pressure for all players and not just for Chinese player. Some may say Chinese players will always have the most pressure, as they have no choice but win.

So it will be an interesting Olympic imo. Will we see the Chinese players rise to the occasion, or are we going to see upsets by weaker players, or are we going to see the main threats crown champions?

No matter who wins, 2012 is history and all the players need to relearn how to play with the new ball (rule change yet again).


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Posted By: Vladovich
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 6:29am
 
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

 

No matter who wins, 2012 is history and all the players need to relearn how to play with the new ball (rule change yet again).

I think that ittf postponed the new ball rule for 2013 or 2014, not sure Big smile



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FH: Joola Phenix

BH: Dr. Neubauer Bison 1.5mm



"The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be…unnatural."


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 6:34am
Originally posted by Vladovich Vladovich wrote:

 
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

 

No matter who wins, 2012 is history and all the players need to relearn how to play with the new ball (rule change yet again).

I think that ittf postponed the new ball rule for 2013 or 2014, not sure Big smile



It wasn't postponed.
The ball will be available after Olympics, the old ball can be used until 2014 (I don't have the exact date now).

Sooner or later all players need to learn the new ball - for the future. This is just like any other rule change that happened. (And in Chinese player sake, we saw many players retired in conjunction with rule changes....)

Not sure what balls they are going to use in 2013 world champs and 2014 world teams. I'm sure 2016 Olympic will be new balls by then.


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Posted By: jinlai
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 8:17am
It is good for China to lose some games and this proves that they are not always invincible. 


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 8:30am
Ya, if I was CNT management, I would instruct CNT to loose certain matches, otherwise ITTF will start a worse anti-China domination campaign than what we have seen already.

So what I would do is, make sure we work out that the Chinese players are never world number 1, maybe only from ranking 4/5 onwards, and let other countries players always be 1~3.

But when there is major tournament (pro tour grand final, Olympic, World Champ, World Teams), then they can go get all the medals.

Cause ITTF plans over the past 10~20 years to end Chinese domination isn't working at all. The other countries plans to end Chinese domination isn't working "fully", so only China can end Chinese dominations (my conspiracy plans lol).

But coming back to this game, all credit to the Korean player, he deserved all the points and the game.


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Posted By: gatorling
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 10:37am
The Korean played very very well but Ma Long didn't feel like Ma Long. He just sorta fell apart after a while.
It could just be a slump though, we'll see. He has a couple of months to snap out of it.


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Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 10:45am
Ratings Central Ranking:
 
Ma Long ----- #1
Lee Sang Su ----- #60
Chan Kazuhiro ----- #90
================
 
Strange outcome:
#60 beat #1, then #60 lost to #90.


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skip3119


Posted By: Jonan
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 10:54am
Forget Ma Long, Fang Bo lost to Persson XD  or Mizutani losing to Joon Jaryoung.

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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 11:02am
I would say Korean open is more difficult than Olympics lol.
So many upsets (lower rank player beating highing ranked player), and so many injuries, Joo, Guo Yan, Guo Yue....


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Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 1:06pm
I watched the match and I must say that I didn't think Ma Long was really outplayed. His form and his mental state seemed to be the main elements leading to a loss. Not to say that Lee Sung Su was not playing well. I think he played up and remained in the match in accordance with his strategies and tactics. So the win is well deserved, but I would not call it outplayed.

First, the score. In the second game, Ma Long was up 10-8 and lost in a deuce. I think if he would have won that game, his mental state would have been much stronger. Losses in a deuce are also pretty much anybody's game. Lee Sung Su won a few extra points on luck ( like being 2-0 in game 2 against Ma Long's serve on 2 net pushes ). He was also very close in game 4, where he had a chance to take the match to 2-2, but failed. So to me, it was a close match.

Ma Long's mental game was really off. It is visible by his lack of motivation. Another indicator that he was off is the amount of short Ma Long's serves that trailed long, allowing Lee Sung Su to attack very hard. There were very few long rallies - an indication that he was unable to open up the game, probably due to his mind wondering off somewhere else. Usually, he was able to put up a much tougher fight.

Regarding the tactics. I think Lee Sung Su has been training properly against some recent development in table tennis, specifically in how the Chinese team gains initiative early in the game - backhand flip off a service return. The difference is that every time Ma Long returned the serve this way, the Korean player did not merely defend the flip with his backhand or tried to attack it with his forehand. Both of these options would have allowed Ma Long to fight back, because these type of responses from opponents play into Ma Long's attacking strengths. However, a quick off the bounce backhand attack - fast with little spin, gave Ma Long trouble. It seems Ma Long is a lot more comfortable in countering a spiny ball to his backhand, rather than a flatter, faster ball. Hence he put a lot of his backhand counters into the net.

Regarding coach's deciphering Chinese game.... I think that Chinese players play patterns. They drill those patterns very well and alternate them. They also have a good counter loop, counter attacking training allowing them to gain an advantage in those points when the rallies open up past the combinations and patterns they train. Because the Chinese players drill their patterns so much, it seems that in pressure they are unable to deviate from those patterns to find a different way to win. They rely on coaches for changes in strategy and tactics. I think this system is very efficient, because the patterns are so consistently good and the players are so strong, but, this makes the players very predictable - every match the patterns are identical. So, a smart coach from another country can recognize and figure out how to counter this style of play and gain an advantage. The trick is teaching his player to win against Chinese style of play.


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Posted By: power7
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 1:29pm
I think  Lee Sang Su has been training specifically to take on Ma Long for a long time now, hoping for their eventual match.  Who doesn't want to have a chance at hitting a smash at #1.  I don't think Ma Long trained specifically to take on Lee Sang Su, yet.  

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Posted By: opinari
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Regarding coach's deciphering Chinese game.... I think that Chinese players play patterns. They drill those patterns very well and alternate them. They also have a good counter loop, counter attacking training allowing them to gain an advantage in those points when the rallies open up past the combinations and patterns they train. Because the Chinese players drill their patterns so much, it seems that in pressure they are unable to deviate from those patterns to find a different way to win. They rely on coaches for changes in strategy and tactics. I think this system is very efficient, because the patterns are so consistently good and the players are so strong, but, this makes the players very predictable - every match the patterns are identical. So, a smart coach from another country can recognize and figure out how to counter this style of play and gain an advantage. The trick is teaching his player to win against Chinese style of play.

I think this is a problem more for Ma Long than for other CNT players. Ma Long's mental game used to be a little rough, but he had seemed to overcome this problem last year.


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Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:

Chinese coaches are trying to destroy Ma Long.  I believe he´s not feeling motivated and upset/dissapointed because of his discard for OG at singles event.
 
I also think Ma Long's motivation is zero since he was discarded from the OG singles event.
 
btwy, koki was a little destroyed by the old and close to retire Ma Lin. I do not understand how it is possible if he was in an unstoppable progression. something is happening here.


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Posted By: riker71
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 5:26pm
Agree that ML condition has dropped recently which co incides with the Olympic rejection. They did it for womens singles so why not mens. Too late now but must have been hugely disappointing for him, having a reaction to that is totally understandable

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Posted By: Wilbeerthoven
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 6:11pm
Stop relate this defeat with London Olympics. Ma Long lost simply because he could not handle the pressure, wich is normal (.


Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by ejmaster ejmaster wrote:




Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:


Chinese coaches are trying to destroy Ma Long.  I believe he´s not feeling motivated and upset/dissapointed because of his discard for OG at singles event.
 
I also think Ma Long's motivation is zero since he was discarded from the OG singles event.
 
btwy, koki was a little destroyed by the old and close to retire Ma Lin. I do not understand how it is possible if he was in an unstoppable progression. something is happening here.





Exactly what is happening? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wang Hao and Zhang Jike where selected due to their ranking, and there was nothing the Chinese coaches could do about that? Or, was there? Cause the way I understand it, the only way to replace either of these players would be if they where injured?

Ma Long have been on fire for so long, so I only think it is natural if he have a little set back now and I don't think it has anything to do with the Olympics.

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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 6:27pm
Everybody loses sometimes and there are a lot of dangerous players out there, so at top ITTF level you don't need to be very far off your game to be in trouble.  But this puts Wang Liqin's accomplishment of being ranked number 1 in the world for 48 straight months in perspective.  That is why I have maintained for some time that he is the greatest player of the modern era. 


Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by ejmaster ejmaster wrote:




Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:


Chinese coaches are trying to destroy Ma Long.  I believe he´s not feeling motivated and upset/dissapointed because of his discard for OG at singles event.
 
I also think Ma Long's motivation is zero since he was discarded from the OG singles event.
 
btwy, koki was a little destroyed by the old and close to retire Ma Lin. I do not understand how it is possible if he was in an unstoppable progression. something is happening here.





Exactly what is happening? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wang Hao and Zhang Jike where selected due to their ranking, and there was nothing the Chinese coaches could do about that? Or, was there? Cause the way I understand it, the only way to replace either of these players would be if they where injured?

Ma Long have been on fire for so long, so I only think it is natural if he have a little set back now and I don't think it has anything to do with the Olympics.
 
i meant something is happening to the supposedly unstoppable progression in koki niwa not about Ma Long.
 
Ma Long has no pressure at all. That is the problem. He is going to fight to win what?. The ittf korean open?. There is no challenge to Ma Long. 


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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 6:48pm
Ma Long imo did all this for free marketing.
Look at all the coverage he made on MYTT forum during the Asian Qualifiers.
Now watch this thread become 200+ post long.

Ma Long planned all this Wink

(if Ma Long won Korea open, I'm sure the thread will be 10 times smaller lol)


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Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by Wilbeerthoven Wilbeerthoven wrote:

Stop relate this defeat with London Olympics. Ma Long lost simply because he could not handle the pressure, wich is normal (.

Pressure to win the Korea Open?

Ma Long is just playing unmotivated now.  We all know what makes Ma Long special, it's the way he keeps the pressure on you seeming regardless of situation.  It's the way he runs after every ball, contorts his body into all sorts of shapes to get a strong attack in, FH and BH.  Against Lee and Koki, he looks like he's glued to the floor, playing a quick blocking/countering game that's more like Ma Lin's style, except not as well since, well, it's not his style, it's Ma Lin's!


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Blade: DHS DM-1000 CPEN
FH: Tenergy 05 2.1
BH: Acuda S3 Max


Posted By: jinlai
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 10:11pm
Now that Ma Long has lost twice (once recently at the Olympic Qualification Round), what can we say about the Pro equipment/rubber that he uses? So don't blame the blade and rubber that you are using, just keep on practicing hard, put in more effort, play more matches, join more competitions, etc, that's.


Posted By: mikepong
Date Posted: 05/19/2012 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by jinlai jinlai wrote:

Now that Ma Long has lost twice (once recently at the Olympic Qualification Round), what can we say about the Pro equipment/rubber that he uses? So don't blame the blade and rubber that you are using, just keep on practicing hard, put in more effort, play more matches, join more competitions, etc, that's.

i have no doubts that the equipments that he uses are top notch in terms of quality


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Viscaria

FH: Tenergy 05 black

BH: Tenergy 05 red





Posted By: Wilbeerthoven
Date Posted: 05/20/2012 at 11:06am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by Wilbeerthoven Wilbeerthoven wrote:

Stop relate this defeat with London Olympics. Ma Long lost simply because he could not handle the pressure, wich is normal (.) 

Pressure to win the Korea Open?

Ma Long is just playing unmotivated now.  We all know what makes Ma Long special, it's the way he keeps the pressure on you seeming regardless of situation.  It's the way he runs after every ball, contorts his body into all sorts of shapes to get a strong attack in, FH and BH.  Against Lee and Koki, he looks like he's glued to the floor, playing a quick blocking/countering game that's more like Ma Lin's style, except not as well since, well, it's not his style, it's Ma Lin's!

Yes, pressure of losing in the second round, come on he is the #1 seed of the tournament ... What happens is that everyone in front of him nowadays gives 200% of themselves and want to make the game of their lives. After watching his victory in the first round i said, "Ma Long is really badass!" because I was very impressed with his ability to convert points in very decisive moments and in a manner which causes a mess on the opponent. I really hoped for him but same did not happen against Lee. 

ps: I could not find the same font you're using. Dead


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Bl: DHS PG7
FH: Acuda S2
BH: Acuda S2


Posted By: Jonan
Date Posted: 05/20/2012 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by mikepong mikepong wrote:

i have no doubts that the equipments that he uses are top notch in terms of quality


Eh, you never know, Samsanov switched from his ancient blade finally, the thing was like warped from years of speed gluing, and went to a new setup, blade, rubbers, and won the world cup beating Ma Long and Chen Qi.


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Posted By: jmaster
Date Posted: 05/20/2012 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:

Chinese coaches are trying to destroy Ma Long.  I believe he´s not feeling motivated and upset/dissapointed because of his discard for OG at singles event.



That  why he lost. Ma Long is not happy. He look very desapointed with discard of olimpic game singles.Ouch


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Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 05/22/2012 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

I think  Lee Sang Su has been training specifically to take on Ma Long for a long time now, hoping for their eventual match.  Who doesn't want to have a chance at hitting a smash at #1.  I don't think Ma Long trained specifically to take on Lee Sang Su, yet.  



the same hype when kishikawa beat ma long, i would bet that ML would crush lee if he wasnt disheartened by liu decision, you train a whole life to pursue a dream and suddenly is gone, that would lead to depresion any athlete


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 2:43am
Guys,

Ma Long knew that he was in trouble 1 year ago, when May 2011 ranking was released.
If maybe ZJK or WH form is not that good, then they may be an injury subsitution.

I'm sure Ma Long knew his fate, and he may be disappointed, and is really on a low now. I looks like he doesn't even know how to play table tennis, and this was something that LGL mentioned about both ML and ZJK after the Dortmund.

Why don't you guys debate that Ma Long is not number one in CTTSL? and he is young and that with the Chinese system, they really test your character and you need to fight for any place and never get spoon feeded.

I guess if the likes of Timo Boll and other players out there needs to find for rights to play, they will work harder and be mentally more stronger to compete, then oppose to "free entry" to any compeition.


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Posted By: pongfugrasshopp
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:00am
I'm a fan of ML and hopes he comes back with a vengeance. Buuuuut, he's a professional and can't make any excuses.  He should be motivated to steamroll through everyone like he has been prior to the Olympics decision.  The Olympics isn't everything. Arguably, it's value has cheapened.... at least in table tennis.  If he continues his career by beating up on the competition, including his teammates, history will remember him for his dominance.... not his lack of appearance in one Olympics.

I've been and still am a fan of Wang Liqin.  It was probably disappointing for him, but I don't feel his lack of gold/silver in Olympic singles has made him any less of a player.  


Posted By: mg
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 8:40am
ZApenholder, I'm a big fan of Ma Long and I really feel for him not beeing able to play singles at the Olympics, and I agree that it is extremely hard to be the one who represents China in table tennis when there so many excellent players. But what you're saying about Boll is a bit of a nonsence. Do you have an idea how "important" is TT as a sport in most of the other countries? That's not football or basketball, where you could earn a lot of money even if you're not that good as a player. TT is not a priority for the Ministry of sports/government. Nobody gets "spoon feeded". If Boll can enter any competition that's because he's top 5 in the world, not because he's a German, and he has fought long and hard to get there. He never had the best coaches and team colleagues/training partners in the world  - and the Chinese have it practically for free, it's just the way it is. TT is a state policy in China, they have this only sport where they can dominate the whole world, they have millions of players to choose from and they can invest unlimited resources to keep it going. So stop being so hard on the rest of the world, if there are players like Boll, who manage to beat the Chinese from time to time, it's because they have put an enormous effort, not because somebody offered them millions of dollars just to play TT.


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 8:59am
lol MG calm down.

If Germany is going to be in any compeition, Timo Boll will be a direct pick from its coaches and team management right? Haven't even talked about like it will be the case for 10~15 years

Where in China's case, every 5 years is a new generation, and you may have 5 players that is higher than Timo's caliber and is only allowed to choose 2 or 3.

And as a CNT member, you have to win, you are not allowed to loose. Where a non Chinese will be - you are not expected to win, so try your best and play without "fear"
So mentally it is tougher in China than any where else of the world. 

I have noticed the likes of Ma Lin, Wang Hao and Wang Liqin going through some very bad mental dips, and now seeing a young Ma Long.
I never heard of these mental problems durings the days of Kong and Liu and before them.... I think it is a worrying factor on how much more pressure these youngsters are put under.

BTW I am not commenting on the TT system in Europe or that manner, I am commenting on the "strict" Chinese system and the player themselves vs players from other countries "pressure"




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Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 9:09am
I don't think the Chinese players have it easy either.  To be in CNT, where you can get financial support, is not easy at all.  These players still need family support, and work their butts off, just like the rest of us, and only a few can make it big.  On top of that they usually don't get to play pass 30 yrs old.


Posted By: mg
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 9:37am
I'm pretty calm actuallySleepy But it's not Timo's fault that Germany doesn't have better jounger players, and it's not like he doesn't deserve his place at any event. As I said I agree that it is extremely tough for the Chinese players. But they are a product of the Chinese system, they could not get that far in another country, every situation has advantages and disadvantages. In Ma Long's case it's worse, because he was dominating the sport for a year, he's healthy, but still he can't compete for the Olympic title in singles, I don't think something like that has happened in another sport, he's a victim of a stupid rule. I guess if you ask ZJK about that he will say that everything is just perfectLOL


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 10:06am
MG, as long we all calm - super cool lol

There is so much pressure to be number 1 Chinese player, you just need a few weeks of bad form, then you in trouble. You can become number 5 or number 10 within a month or so.

Timo can have 1 year of bad form, and he won't be under the same pressure as a Chinese if you know what I mean.
I guess same will be applied of there are 5 juniors knocking on Timo's door for a 2 man spot and on how much pressure Timo would be to remain no 1 German player etc. It can be a good thing and a bad thing. And yes, Timo deserves his place and only using him as an example than using another Asian team.

And yes, ZJK or WH for that matter may consider themselves lucky and I still don't think 2 player rule is fair and right. But with rights to Olympics participation comes with huge responsiblity. They have no choice but to bring back Olympic gold. Silver and Bronze is Failure and embarrasements etc.

Now the rest just want to get a medal, or just cause some upsets and have fun etc.


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Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 10:25am
I feel bad for Ma Long.  And I do think that it's just a very tough time for him in his career.  I think 2, 3 years ago, Zhang Jike wasn't as good as Ma Long was and Zhang Jike just got a big jump 2 years ago with big winning that proves he's one of the best while Ma Long had been already the best of the best. And Zhang Jike just got lucky in winning the important events that booked him the ticket to London.  Wang Hao is another story and I don't think Ma Long gets envy about Wang Hao going to London.  Ma Long and Zhang Jike are rivalries and either one can go to the Olympic will make the other upset.
 
Anyway, I would think Ma Long has no motivation to compete in a while and his performance will go down (I did wrote at another discussion that his style is pretty hard for him to keep up with the performance that he had several months ago) but I just hope that he will pick himself up and be the best again.  Everybody has a low time in their career but what makes the difference between a good player and a legend is that the legend will pick himself up and become better.
 
FireHorse
 


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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 10:31am
Here is the rankings in CTTSL for the past few years:

Year

Zhang Jike

Ma Long

2011

1

2

2010

1

3

2009

2

1

2008

10

1

2007

7

2

2006

41

9


Zhang Jike is also doing sightly better than Ma Long in the Super League


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Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 10:53am

Another thing kinda related to Ma Long and Zhang Jike and the Olympic, I believe that this time is the time for Zhang Jike.  I'm not sure if there's anyone strong enough to compete with Zhang Jike in singles unless he gets sick.  I think with Zhang Jike's personality, he will be on fire most of the time.  To me, the only one who Zhang Jike fears the most would be Ma Long (and vice versa).

FireHorse


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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:23am
Zhang Jike's weakness is himself.
In fact, LGL considers both of them in the same league when comes to psychologically speaking, and he said that they physcial training is over, he can't help them any more on how to play, but rather need to try and coach them psychologically.

We can clearly see that in Dortmund when ZJK was playing Timo Boll.
The points he lost when leading was really not the same ZJK during the same game. ZJK even admitted that he was trying to hard and ended up no where.


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Posted By: snerdly
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 1:42pm
Ma Long has been kept off the singles roster because he has failed to produce any results in "World" events, something the powers that be see as too big of a risk even with his 51 game winning streak.  And true to form Ma Long falters under the pressure.  Ma Long is the victim of performance anxiety, he chokes, and his coaches know it.

Zhang Jike was twice removed from the first team for total time equaling more than 2 years.  He could't play singles, or doubles, in any international event.  It might have been a tough time in his career. 
Then he is allowed to take his place on the team and he has charged directly into the finals of every "World" event he competes in.  Jike does not falter under pressure, he excels, and his coaches know it.  He is one motivated, shirt ripping mofo.


Posted By: Gauguin
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 1:51pm
Ma Long is human after all!!! And please give some credit to Niwa, He played well under pressure for his young age...Just imagine 1,300 millions people looking after you compare to 150 millions...


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 3:57pm
Gauguin
Niwa is history, that is the old thread.
We talking about Ma Long's lost in the Korean open, and talking about Ma Long and Zhang Jike.
In the other thread, we all gave credit to Niwa already, so that is why you won't see it here


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Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:22pm
i do not find sense thinking Ma Long is weak mentally or he chokes. At present after consolidating his dominance, how come he is going to think about failing when he has crushed everybody including an unbalanced record against the only one who may do something zjk.
In the zjk Ma Long matches it is clear zjk is lot more stressed than Ma Long. Ma Long plays really confident against zjk.
After losing against Lee (zero importance, though Lee did it more convincingly than koki Niwa) i watched the doubles final.
And there is a big detail to appreciate. LGL was coaching zjk and Wang Hao against Ma Long and XX.
Ma Long and XX won 4-0, but the thing to appreciate is Ma Long game prevailing over zjk, WH and XX play.
 
He was the leader in that match. And he looks motivated. And he definitely unbalanced the doubles final to his side. XX just colaborates. But the fierce Ma Long was showing he is the real number one in the world.
 
If Ma Long is motivated there is only one dominant player in the court. This is Ma Long. And zjk will win till Ma Long gets in. The present Ma Long is an even better Ma Long in the past.
 
Though he has lost 2 no motivation matches he is the number one ahead from zjk. He is not going to fail at present when the time comes. He is superior to the rest. In the doubles final he was motivated, he was feeling a challenge and he was the best from the 4 best players in the world. The leader is Ma Long. 
 
 

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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:29pm
Ejmaster.

I think it is comfort zone issue.

Ma Long is trying hard, and trying too hard and not being himself.
He admitted to only playing 50% or less after his game with Koki Niwa.
He was "stuck" and nothing worked

LGL stated a long time already that ML and ZJK are still young and have the biggest problem upon the top 5 (at that time - Ma Lin, Wang Hao, Wang Liqin, Ma Long and Zhang Jike) with mental weaknesses.

I think that video I posted about Journey from Dortmund to London, where LGL explains both ZJK and ML will explain a lot more detail on the issues they are facing today still. That interview also analysis both players mental weakness against Germany in the final


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Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:38pm
Ma Long has not showed mental weakness from long time ago. Neither Ma Long nor zjk.
 
On the contrary. Both Ma Long and zjk are relaxing and losing in non important matches. But both at present look really focused when it is their time. 
 
The difference is that Ma Long is better than zjk. And Ma Long feels better against zjk than zjk against Ma Long.
 
The Ma Long from the past was not so good as Ma Long now. He could fail. A fair fail.
 
i do not see Ma Long failing. He has showed his dominance more than enough.
 
And to lose some matches in non saying tournaments what zjk also does it is no sign of anything.
 
There is little chance for the rest (wh, malin) against Ma Long and zjk. The past is not the present situation.
 
At anytime Ma Long is motivated particularly against his mates there is a Ma Long with eye of the tiger. In the doubles final he was motivated. Wh and zjk with LGL were in front.
And he played sending the message 'I am the number one'.


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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:47pm
Well, I won't debate with you in terms of Ma Long not showing mental weakness etc. As I haven't watch much TT matches during the past 5 years until past 6 months, so can't really answer you from my own experience or view point of Ma Long's progress.

But have shared with you what Liu Guo Liang pointed out after the World Teams.

You should watch that interview where he was talking about Ma Long and Zhang Jike mental weaknesses that needs to improve. And having video playbacks of the game against Germany to point out what happened. The players had to explain why they did that etc.

It is 1 hour long for Mens and 1 hour long for womens.
All 3 player that played in the final was interviewed, with head coach Liu in mens interview, and Shi in Women, both accompanying they players




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Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:55pm
i know what you are telling me. But this is not what it is at present. That was the past.
 
the present situation is totally unbalanced in favor of zjk and Ma Long. And if zjk and Ma Long have to encounter the situation is unbalanced in favor of Ma Long.
 
Ma Long loses several times in the past against WH in important and in no so important matches. This is not the situation now.
 
Ma Long is outplaying WH lately. And he has outplayed his mates as he didn't do it before. The same with zjk but Ma Long. 


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Posted By: Roger Stillabower
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 7:01pm
LGL favors pen hold players, I think in the Korean doubles that Ma Long was motivated more that LGL was coaching WH & ZJ than he was his opponents, just my opinion. I've never read where LGL is praising Ma Long for anything !

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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 7:10pm
I guess you still not understanding me or simply don't understand what LGL is telling the whole world from interviews or press releases after Dortmund, after Asian qualifiers and after Korea Open.

We are not talking about Ma or Zhang versus any body or about wins or losses.

The analysis comment between LGL and the talk show host I was pointing out is mental issue, where in World teams (around  the corner and not per your say - "Long time ago") the players had up and downs. The down was because of mental issue. The end result was a win, but LGL stated and the players admitted they had mental issues and each point was discuss in full detail (seems like you haven't seen that video yet)

So you can choose not to believe it, but I am telling you that I heard it with my own ears that LGL, and the 2 players we are talking about, said they had mental issues during the final against Germany. (this interview was about 1 ~ 2 weeks after Dortmund)

And this mental issue has seem to become a lot bigger for Ma Long since winning gold at Dortmund. So IMO this is a current issue with Ma Long and not like history as per your say.

And as I stated before, I saw Ma Lin, Wang Hao and Wang Liqin going through similiar dips but not at Ma Long's young age....

Anyways, you can choose to believe otherwise and I'm going to stop acting like a messenger and telling you what I heard or read from CNT.


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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Roger Stillabower Roger Stillabower wrote:

LGL favors pen hold players, I think in the Korean doubles that Ma Long was motivated more that LGL was coaching WH & ZJ than he was his opponents, just my opinion. I've never read where LGL is praising Ma Long for anything !


You are right, LGL seldom praises his players publically. However the players have huge respect for him.
BTW, did you know Xu Xin is the naughty one of the lot? He fools around etc only when LGL is not in the practice hall, and even his coach Qin Zhijian finds it funny.

I think the big headache now is, who to play doubles, and who to play two singles at the Olympic, as both doubles player can only play one single.



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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 7:30pm
Ejmaster.

I guess I lost it for a moment there.
Any ways, I found some English reading articles where LGL commented on the psychological state of mind of Ma Long

http://tabletennista.com/2012/5/liu-guoliang-worries-on-ma-long-and-the-do/ - http://tabletennista.com/2012/5/liu-guoliang-worries-on-ma-long-and-the-do/
http://tabletennista.com/2012/5/ma-longs-condition-is-dangerous/ - http://tabletennista.com/2012/5/ma-longs-condition-is-dangerous/

In fact, after I viewed that interview video, I thought Zhang Jike was in a bigger trouble than Ma Long from Dortmund, clearly we can see that Ma Long is really struggling, hope China open with home court fans can save him.

And BTW, do you understand Mandarin?


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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:31pm
What I am starting to understand is with Liu Guoliang, nothing is more important than Liu Guoliang. He toys with the people and only thinks about his own dominance as a team leader. Talking that way about Ma Long is just plain idiotic; Ma Long has insolently dominated in a 51 matches streak and the fact he loses 2 lower level players should make a real coach say something like "it can't be too bad for you to loose sometimes -because it helps you keep your feet down to earth- but you understand you can do that only in low rated events?" to which Ma Long would answer "Yes Sir", gaining all his confidence back all at once. 

The way Liu Guoliang bashes Ma Long in public is simply irresponsible and shows that he has now a big head; it's time for his replacement before he takes the team into mental chaos.

Do you remember when he said something like "I grew up with TT so if I can be head coach for 30 more years I'll be happy"? what kind of stupid statement is that?

China produces the best players because it's the national sport in a 1.4 billion people country where players start at 7yo; it is not hard to bring a CNT to international consistent dominance; when it's about doing so with modesty, it is another story and Liu fails in that matter for the worst of the players' self confidence.

I used to like Liu Guoliang; I really do not care about him anymore. He is like a vampire sucking out his players' soul to better feed his own head coaching game and I see him now as a liability for the whole  sport.  


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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:34pm
Sometimes it seems to me that Liu Guoliang's agenda is by whatever means possible to show that no players on his team are as good as he was.


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sometimes it seems to me that Liu Guoliang's agenda is by whatever means possible to show that no players on his team are as good as he was.
well put sir!


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Posted By: doraemon
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:52pm
It's a CONSPIRACY.....

LGL did not choose Ma Long for the Olympic single....  Now, everybody questions him....  What???  No.1 in the world will not play in the Olympic ?????

So LGL called Ma Long:  "Hey, please help me here.....   Can you deliberately lose 2 games against nobody???   Please.... please.... pretty please......    You can save my face here....  I can say that you really sucks and everybody would agree.....   Will you do that for your beloved coach???   Pleeeeeeeasssseeeeee......."

Ma Long:  "OK Boss, whatever you want."  


Posted By: roar
Date Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sometimes it seems to me that Liu Guoliang's agenda is by whatever means possible to show that no players on his team are as good as he was.

You do have to admit that the ITTF's new rules that cut LGL's career 5 or so years short is certainly something to be bitter about.


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Posted By: peter79
Date Posted: 05/24/2012 at 12:05am
Originally posted by doraemon doraemon wrote:

It's a CONSPIRACY.....

LGL did not choose Ma Long for the Olympic single....  Now, everybody questions him....  What???  No.1 in the world will not play in the Olympic ?????

So LGL called Ma Long:  "Hey, please help me here.....   Can you deliberately lose 2 games against nobody???   Please.... please.... pretty please......    You can save my face here....  I can say that you really sucks and everybody would agree.....   Will you do that for your beloved coach???   Pleeeeeeeasssseeeeee......."

Ma Long:  "OK Boss, whatever you want."  



LOLLOLLOL well said, I think so Clap
LOL

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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 05/24/2012 at 12:05am
Originally posted by roar roar wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sometimes it seems to me that Liu Guoliang's agenda is by whatever means possible to show that no players on his team are as good as he was.

You do have to admit that the ITTF's new rules that cut LGL's career 5 or so years short is certainly something to be bitter about.
 
he could have fought and adapted like everybody if he was that good; he preferred to abandon and throw the towel; another sign of his immeasurable ego. couldn't he have been modest and respected the authority like he demands from his team players?

slapping in public hao shuai at the restaurant? come on!!! what a freaking jerk...


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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/24/2012 at 4:29am
If you guys think LGL is strict/bad, how about Cai Zhenhua lol.

BTW, I think what you guys are saying sound correct if you just read the English article.
Imo, the Chinese interviews (where the articles are translated from), doesn't sound so bad.


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Posted By: FireHorse
Date Posted: 05/24/2012 at 1:49pm
Regarding Ma Long's and Zhang Jike's mental weakness, I think it's normal because once you get up there in the ranking list, everybody is going after you and you really, really need to have confidence to retain in that top positions and it's not that easy so it's normal for them to have mental weakness and for Liu Goulang to say so.  And I do not try to blame the table tennis rule but 11-point game with 2 serves is the big factor of having lots of upsets.  If you do not attack well and consitent with power, you will have a tough time to have the upper hand.  And because of that, playing against lower ranking players (but upcoming players who are eager to get a piece of you), it's very shaky unless you have a very, very tough mental mindset.  And only losing will help you to get that tough mental mindset if you pick yourself up and press on to be better.
 
I do not try to defend Ma Long at all and I think that will happen to all of us, both in life and in sports and especially in table tennis that has a lot of minor things that could cause a big upset.
 
FireHorse


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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/26/2012 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

I guess you still not understanding me or simply don't understand what LGL is telling the whole world from interviews or press releases after Dortmund, after Asian qualifiers and after Korea Open.

We are not talking about Ma or Zhang versus any body or about wins or losses.

The analysis comment between LGL and the talk show host I was pointing out is mental issue, where in World teams (around  the corner and not per your say - "Long time ago") the players had up and downs. The down was because of mental issue. The end result was a win, but LGL stated and the players admitted they had mental issues and each point was discuss in full detail (seems like you haven't seen that video yet)

So you can choose not to believe it, but I am telling you that I heard it with my own ears that LGL, and the 2 players we are talking about, said they had mental issues during the final against Germany. (this interview was about 1 ~ 2 weeks after Dortmund)

And this mental issue has seem to become a lot bigger for Ma Long since winning gold at Dortmund. So IMO this is a current issue with Ma Long and not like history as per your say.

And as I stated before, I saw Ma Lin, Wang Hao and Wang Liqin going through similiar dips but not at Ma Long's young age....

Anyways, you can choose to believe otherwise and I'm going to stop acting like a messenger and telling you what I heard or read from CNT.


BTW, this message is for Ejmaster.
I've figured that he is questioning my knowledge on the information provided

Hope he goes and do some homework and know that I am not making anything up, but rather providing accurate information that I have gathered from information released by CNT

Wonder if he will admit in public that he was wrong about me



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Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/26/2012 at 6:49pm
i admit it ZApenholder. I was wrong about you and i do not have any idea of mandarin. i was just posting what i feel. you are right.
i go back to sleep. it is late here. zzzzz.
 


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