Double hit is legal!
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Topic: Double hit is legal!
Posted By: popperlocker
Subject: Double hit is legal!
Date Posted: 11/20/2012 at 11:55pm
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http://tabletennis.about.com/od/importantrules/a/importantrules_3.htm - http://tabletennis.about.com/od/importantrules/a/importantrules_3.htm
Some rules that may surprise you. 1. You CAN double hit the ball (of course intentional double hits/soccer plays are illegal) 2. You CAN hit the ball with any part of your playing hand(while holding the racket) 3. You CAN hit the ball with any part of your racket including handle Ball hits hand then racket, legal! Ball hits hand twice, legal! Ball hits racket then hand, legal!
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Replies:
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 11/21/2012 at 12:57am
| The double hit rule was implemented in recent years. But I don't think many ppl know that. |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 11/21/2012 at 11:57am
Need to practice those shots.  -------------  Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
popperlocker wrote:Posted By: j-bo
Date Posted: 11/21/2012 at 12:48pm
| so..say your opponent hits the ball...you go to block it hits the back of your hand..you can then take another swing at it and hit it with your paddle? |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 11/21/2012 at 12:59pm
No. It has to be ONE swing. You can't assist to yourself  |
Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 11/21/2012 at 1:11pm
If you're taking a second swing, that would be considered intentional. Soccer trapping/carry plays/intentional double hits are not allowed. I don't think it's humanely possible to intentionally double hit unless you're stopping the ball/trapping the ball in soccer. Your hand reaction time would have to be .01 ms. But let's say you are superhuman, it would make more sense to use your insane reaction time to hit an easy winner, than going for an unreliable and inefficient double hit.
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Posted By: j-bo
Date Posted: 11/21/2012 at 1:20pm
Shucks... I was going to invent the assist and winners stat or as they say in other sports, a "double/double".  Thanks. |
Posted By: DeIgado
Date Posted: 11/21/2012 at 2:23pm
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I wish this rule was more known. I almost got into a fight with some fat kid because he was wrong and I was right. Damn you ittf rules constantly changing! ------------- Viscaria 86g T05 T05-fx 2059 and rising |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 11/22/2012 at 1:02pm
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Rule was changed in 2008 (following a long standing example of tennis and badminton). So it's not very recent - also it is one of just a few ITTF changes which actually make sense. ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: mmerkel
Date Posted: 11/22/2012 at 4:15pm
I had to make a ruling as an ump once where one player accidentally hit it with his hand and the other stopped playing, thinking it was an illegal hit. I got some pretty incredulous looks when I ruled the point against him  ------------- #1 RL Balance -Bluefire M2 -Acuda S2 #2 RL Avalanche#2 -Bluefire M2 -Sigma Europe #3 Primorac -Boost TP -Magna TC |
Posted By: ahmike
Date Posted: 11/23/2012 at 3:28pm
To clarify, although the double hit rule is also applicable to tennis, if one of the two hits makes contact with the hand, the point is awarded to your opponent. Both hits have to make contact with the tennis racquet for the shot to be legal.
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Posted By: jumpulse
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 12:39pm
| The secret of consistency in sports is prolonged contact, which can cause double-hitting. Prolonged contact can be achieved by applying a jumpulse, which is a sudden change of force, at the precise moment of contact (http://double-hit.com; http://jumpulse.com; http://jumpulsetennis.com). Actually, double-hitting is the best way to practice prolonged contact. I have published a book in 1978 on tt, and I'm glad to see that tt rule is no longer violating physics! Double-hitting was legalized in tennis since 1980s. Golf has yet to change its rule on double-hitting to obey physics. |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 12:44pm
Rules cannot "violate" physics anymore than you could "jumpulse" (there is simply no such word). It is really laughable to see phrases like "Golf has yet to change its rule on double-hitting to obey physics." as if golf balls somehow manage to NOT obey physics. As well as a strange idea that changing the rules of golf (purely bureaucratic matter which will not surely be able to change the universal laws of gravity, reflection and such) might make golf suddenly start "obeying" those laws. Please read your stuff before you post, OK? ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 1:10pm
Presumably it was his racket hand - otherwise the incredulous looks would be justified. :^) ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 1:10pm
| New user grave robbing a 3 year old thread to promote some obscure websites. |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 7:10pm
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Follow the Rule, please.
2.10.1 Unless the rally is a let, a player shall score a point 2.10.1.7 if an opponent deliberately strikes the ball twice in succession; Igor NOVICK national umpire |
Posted By: jumpulse
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 7:32pm
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Dear Jim, Thank you for your correction. The correct word should be observe, not obey. However, I could be the authority on Non-violable, being the founder of post-science: *** Furthermore, the wording of the rule should not be deliberately (2.10.1.6 if an opponent deliberately strikes the ball twice in succession;) because deliberately practicing double-hitting is the best way to learn prolonged contact. The tennis rule is more scientific: double-hitting is legal within one smooth stroke. I’ve post a discussion at a theoretical physics group to challenge physicists on the solution of touch or prolonged contact: *** There are over thousands of my students in tennis and table tennis can double hit a ball and learn it within 15 to 30 minutes. The following is a video illustrate definitively double-hitting is possible: *** where the racket moves faster than the ball. Hugh *** |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 7:45pm
First warning for blatant self-promotion and trash link-posting. ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: jumpulse
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 8:16pm
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I received my PhD in plasma physics at MIT and did postdoctoral research at the Courant Institute of mathematical sciences for 3 years. I worked with Paul Feyerabend and Benson Mates for 8 years in the philosophy department at UC Berkeley. I wrote Table Tennis Scientific Analyses in 1978, which was bought by all major sports manufacturers (letter to prove it), predicting double-hitting by good players and The Jumpulse Stroke in 2008 which was bought by almost all the coaches of professional players after writing a post on jumpulse on tennis.com with over 10 times views than the next highest view. Please state your qualification, Jim. If you ban this, it will be a historical record. Please state your true identity and be responsible for your decisions. Where are my videos? |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 8:35pm
Regardless of your qualifications or mine, when I see absurdity I call it absurdity. But that's just me... BTW, please let us know names of the famous coaches in table tennis who bought your book on the "jumpulse". We know quite a few of them here and we can ask them directly what they thought of it. Could be an interesting test. ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: jumpulse
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 8:45pm
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Oscar Wegner, who coached Spain to beat USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Wegner |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 8:51pm
I specifically asked about table tennis coaches, not tennis coaches - I doubt there are people here on the forum who know coach Wegner and can ask him questions about your book. Top level TT coaches, now that would be a different matter - I am sure that we have plenty of forummers here with access to almost all of them (residing in the US, of course). ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: jumpulse
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 9:02pm
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Please re-post the previous post with valuable links, even though I appreciate Jim's candid criticisms: Dear Jim, Thank you for your correction. The correct word should be observe, not obey. However, I could be the authority on Non-violable, being the founder of post-science: http://www.slideshare.net/hughching/post-science-2016 Furthermore, the wording of the rule should not be deliberately (2.10.1.6 if an opponent deliberately strikes the ball twice in succession;) because deliberately practice double-hitting is the best way to learn prolonged contact. The tennis rule is more scientific: double-hitting is legal within one smooth stroke. I’ve post a discussion at a theoretical physics group to challenge physicists on the solution of touch or prolonged contact: https://www.linkedin.com/grp/post/3091009-6055550959008886786?trk=groups-post-b-title There are over thousands of my students in tennis and table tennis can double hit a ball and learn it within 15 to 30 minutes. The following is a video illustrate definitively double-hitting is possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vSYxgbRhD8 where the racket moves faster than the ball. Hugh http://hughching.com |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 9:08pm
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I watched the Del Potro backhand video on youtube - why do you say that was a double hit? It looked like clean hit, with the racquet accelerating on contact. I am missing the concept, links are very confusing.
------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 9:08pm
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this must be a joke ------------- Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max |
Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 9:09pm
looks like a bunch of spamming jibberish to me ------------- Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 9:18pm
Actually no, I just glanced at this link: http://www.jumpulsetennis.com/nsftouch.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.jumpulsetennis.com/nsftouch.pdf This explains it more clearly. I noticed this when watching Richard Gasquet practice. It appeared he was not hitting the ball, it's hard to describe but sort of cupping it and throwing it back - but with huge amount of speed and spin. I thought it might have been the equipment or something. Another time a TT friend who takes lesson from a former world ranked TT player - told me his coach told him to hold the ball on the racquet and then fling it back rather than hitting it. I didn't understand how it's done. I am thinking "jumppulse" is addressing these issues. Not sure it's true or not but doesn't hurt to check it out. ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: jumpulse
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 9:27pm
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Dear jrscatman, Thank you for raising a good and subtle question: “I watched the Del Potro backhand video on youtube - why do you say that was a double hit? It looked like clean hit, with the racquet accelerating on contact. I am missing the concept, links are very confusing.” Double-hit is hard to see, but when the racket can move faster than the ball, it becomes a definitive prove of the possibility of prolonged contact. When the racket is accelerating during a prolonged contact, the acceleration has to slow down sometime and the ball might microscopically oscillate in and out of the ball. You can try double hit by 1. Moving your racket slowly to a standing ball (zero velocity), 2. Upon contact, swing your racket with as much acceleration as possible (you are applying a jumpulse, a sudden change of force), 3. End the swing with an extreme follow through (this is the real reason for follow through). Please report back to me, if you are successful. Thanks. Hugh |
Posted By: jumpulse
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 9:37pm
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My other coach friends in table tennis are: Chung Tse-dong (3 times world champion, and my brother actually interviewed him recently) Liang Guo-Liang (The top coach in Europe, for a while, and he received my first copy of the draft of my TT book in 1971, when he visited UN) However, the best way to convince yourself the importance and the possibility of double-hitting is to try it and report back if you cannot do it. |
Posted By: jumpulse
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 9:48pm
| I was twice the table tennis champion at MIT. When I got my championship, Lin Ming Chui was also there. He challenged me to a private duel, which was watched by all the ping pong player at MIT (150 team x 5 per team). I beat him 21-18, 21-18. Chui is a tt coach, and his son was ranked at the top, recently. The highest ranking for Lin- Min Chui was 3 in the USA beating lee Doa Jung, long age when we played, also # 8 in Hong Kong, when he was young. |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 11:00pm
If you are a genuine scientist - as you claim to be - why not simply get a high speed camera and provide us with proof? Until then, you have nothing to say.
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Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 10/03/2015 at 11:07pm
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Happened to me at the LA Open. I did a double hit and scored the point. Opponent pointed out that I did a double hit (finger, then racket) and I confirmed that indeed, it was a double hit. Opponent thought that it was his point but I informed him that the rules changed and brought a umpire to the table to explain the changed rule to my opponent.. ------------- 2010 Florida State Champion Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 10/04/2015 at 12:37am
Happened at least twice to me during club league matches and once at a USATT tournament. Two out of three cases my opponents stopped and thought they won the point. ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: fall_river
Date Posted: 10/04/2015 at 8:12am
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deliberately double hits serve? https://youtu.be/UiEcqpDBiFc Also prolonged contact might be the key to consistency and power. We need to keep our mind open. |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 10/04/2015 at 8:55am
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Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 10/04/2015 at 2:47pm
Those of us who have looked into dwell times and have viewed high speed photos and videos have little reason to have an "open mind" mind about this. The actual dwell time is so short that the idea that a human bean could somehow modulated their stroke so as to extend our somehow double up this contact seem absurd. I'm with Tassie on this. My mind is at "show me" on this topic. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 10/04/2015 at 3:22pm
How about the idea of racquet acceleration causing multiple hits or increased dwell time? ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/04/2015 at 4:21pm
| No. |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 10/04/2015 at 4:32pm
Given the differences in mass, no. To clarify where I am on this, theorize away. I just don't think it is worth paying attention to anything short of direct physical evidence. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 10/04/2015 at 5:00pm
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A accidental double hit is just play on, but could we learn to do it on purpose? when we were kids my brother could somehow do this double hit sliding serve anytime he wanted I still never knew how (even 40+ years later) ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 10/04/2015 at 11:31pm
jumpulse - I tried the experiment you suggested. I feel it was successful - but need to test it more. I decide to start another thread on the subject. This thread is about legality of double hits - jumpulse topic is different. Here is the link to the new thread: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73114&PN=1#897545" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73114&PN=1#897545 ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: hungry cow
Date Posted: 10/05/2015 at 12:44pm
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Could it be Sid messing with people again? ------------- 70s Stiga Stellan Bengtsson FH - Mark V 2.0 BH - Donic Bluefire JP 03 2.0 |
Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 10/05/2015 at 12:45pm
that was one of my guesses for the culprit ------------- Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max |