Playing against short pips hitter
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Topic: Playing against short pips hitter
Posted By: jrscatman
Subject: Playing against short pips hitter
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 1:18pm
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What are the suggested tactics against a backhand short pips hitter. He appears to be able to hit topspins or backspins without much problem. Plays very close to the table. I am thinking deep shots to his body. But typically what are the shots that work against short pips - as mentioned above - he seems to have no trouble with my spins. ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Replies:
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 1:22pm
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I agree with deep and if topspin don't work, try to change your focus from spin to height and try to keep the ball as low as possible. If the ball bounce is lower then the net, he will have a hard time hitting. Still possible to loop, but this should give you a good chance to attack. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 1:23pm
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move him around so he can't use his BH. vary your ball placement/spins. -------------  Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 2:13pm
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A few key areas spring to mind given my fair share of short pips nightmare. The first priority is to avoid use of float/no spin at all cost. Light top-/backspin won't cut it. Always send every shot back with fairly heavy spin at a minimum to keep them at bay. Doing so will also get yourself some leeway in case some shots are not as tight and/or deep as desirable. Place most serves away from the short pips and mix in a few kick serves to the crossover to keep them honest. In my case, I find the reverse pendulum and hook serves give them a harder time than the vanilla pendulum serve.
------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 2:24pm
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Zeio is correct about the spin needing to be heavy. If you push a ball back to their SPs it won't have much spin and they can attack it very easily. You've got to really chop the ball or loop it with some serious spin. SPs aren't really great at looping/lifting heavy underspin, so chop the ball with a lot of spin. ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 3:06pm
I disagree with this.
First and foremost, serve no-spin/float long to the forehand or the backhand (whichever is weaker) with strategic placement. This is the hardest ball for the pips hitter to attack. Strategic placement means that the hitter must need to get into position to hit the ball. If the hitter doesn't have to move or reach to hit the ball, the placement is not strategic. The elbow area is fine.
Take the ball relatively late and with either heavy spin/power. Sidespin is pretty helpful. But always keep the balls deep and if possible low. Anything too short and high will give them too many angles.
IF he can hit underspin, find out whether you can serve underspin that is too heavy for him to hit. If it is, then he has to push it or roll it back. But that is when if you serve it deep and he has to roll it back, you can crush the return. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
zeio wrote:Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 3:19pm
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Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 4:49pm
This is, in general, a bad advice, since nmost players are stronger on their fh, so trying to aim for that might not be the best idea, unless you have terrible trouble to play against the SP. Also, I agree with RR and Next Level, flots are good to play against SP hitters, either that or topspin. My experience is that backspin is suicide against them, the more the merrier for them and especially if the ball is short. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 5:05pm
From the OP: What are the suggested tactics against a backhand short pips hitter. He appears to be able to hit topspins or backspins without much problem. Plays very close to the table. with the info given, that's what I'd do. Of course it depends on the OP's playing level. it also depends if the opponent is a SH or PH. ------------- Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 5:25pm
Speaking as an sp hitter, I find the commonest tactical mistake is to apply tactics that work against inverted topspinners e.g.: playing short to stop me getting in. This just helps me to open with a flick. If you are serving short, make sure its high quality heavy backspin which cant be flicked. Otherwise serve long, or half long with varied placement. As far as attacking is concerned if your topspin breaks down against the blocking and punching, then try and rally with less topspin and deeper. If you are patient you will improve your timing and opportunities for winners will come. Finally work on your placement. Its no use sending over rockets if you allow the blocker to command the angles and beat you with your own power ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 5:33pm
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I find it is the close to the table style that SP players play is more of a problem than the SPs themselves. It is a different game when the SP player WILL NOT back up an inch no matter what so the ball comes back quickly and at angles. Sometimes one must simply be able to play faster and beat them at their own game. This should be possible if hitting with inverted because the inverted player can hit with more top spin to keep the ball on the table. The problem is in the execution and being able to loop off the bounce or simply being able to drive the ball fast and low over the net more consistently than the SP player. I agree with keeping the ball low and deep and also hitting at the corners and elbow but this is almost always good advice no matter what one is playing against. Varying spin and speed is good too. Back spin, top spin, side spin, it will all work if done right. I play with SP on my BH and I am a hitter blocker that likes the He Zhi Wen style of hitting the ball fast and low at angles. A hitter blocker that is faster and more accurate than I am or a looper that is fast enough to get into position close to the table is a pain in the ..... My coach will get back and wait for me to make a mistake first. He spins the ball so it bounces to the side. He isn't lobbing just hitting side spin loops. I have had problems with lobbers that spin the ball. It is not my normal game. I try to get the angles but unless I try to hit the ball low off the bounce the ball will bounce high for the lobber again. Good choppers are a problem too. I think the key theme is that they don't let me play my game. I don't see where no spin balls are a problem for the SP player. There is NO magic. It is the execution that is important. ------------- Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br /> |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 5:36pm
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I am intermediate level player. My opponent is shake hands player. Smooth on the forehand Short pips on the backhand. I usually play modern defence style with Smooth (FH) and long pips on the (BH). So BH hits are usually coming to my BH (long pips). I am able to loop on the bh with smooth (but with this player I usually don't have time to twiddle). I can also play smooth & smooth and loop from both sides. I am thinking since I have ability play smooth and smooth - would it better to play with smooth & smooth. Because my control and placement with pips are not very accurate. From the responses it seems - keeping the ball low is very important. So deep no spin serves, followed by deep loops should keep him from attacking. Once he starts his attack - I am not strong enough to counter it - basically I am chasing the ball at that point. I just want to have a basic strategy that I can try - right now I am kind clue less - everything is getting attacked. ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 5:41pm
Do you have LP OX on your BH?, it sounds like you twiddle. You should probably practice more with your LP on ball placement before you twiddle. You may be getting confused. ------------- Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 5:41pm
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+1 to NextLevel and roundrobin A general rule against pip players is to hit low no spin to them since they cannot generate their own spin easily. You also want to give them bad angles since they cannot effectively spin the ball so deep balls can be effective. Making the pip player lift your dead balls will help magnify your ability to fool them with underspin even if you cannot outspin them as NextLevel suggests. ------------- Photino FL Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
Posted By: slowman
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 6:05pm
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It really depends on how the short pip guy plays. From my experiences, they usually play close to the table and block very well. So, if that's the case, I usually win with smash not spin. They can block spin, but it's difficult with smash. I usually setup my smash with *control* loop. I would open my loop either bh or fh with just enough to make him play in passive mode(blocking). This is where I learn my opponent. I usually vary my loop placement so that he is out of position and his block would not be effective. (Ex. He returns a bit high ...) Then I follow with a control loop again or finish with a smash. Again, really depends on the level of both players. ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53425&title=feedback-slowman" rel="nofollow - Feedback Viscaria FH: H3 NEO BH: T05 |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/23/2013 at 6:29pm
I want to play you for money! 
1:- Most of us sp players like low no spin balls because they are easy to hit 2:- The sp player is not trying to spin the ball, they are looking to hit the ball early!! 3:- play the ball deep, you got that one right ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 04/24/2013 at 2:18am
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I see a lot of ideas here about how specifically to deal with SP, but it seems to me the pips are less of an issue than the fact that he's a hitter who stays close to the table. My thoughts: 1. No spin serves are useful against *long* pips but I've never seen a SP player have problems with them. SP have some grip, just not as much as smooth. I personally would serve mostly short with a mix of spins. It is easier to flip a short serve with pips compared to smooth, but most good players can flip anyway. The important thing about short serves (more important than the amount of spin) is to keep the low. If the serve goes high, the SP player with quick hit or smash. If the serve is low, the flip will be no different than a flip from smooth rubber. I would mix in the occasional long serve, but they must be fast, low, and no spin. If this serve goes high, the SP player will kill it. However, if it stays low, then the SP player needs to spin that ball up. Since it's harder to generate spin with SP, then is a challenge for them. Of course, you want to place the ball well, such as far FH corner or the elbow. 2. I would be careful on using the wide angles until your opponent is clearly out of position. Your SP close to the table player has no trouble blocker or guiding the ball to even wider angles, giving you a difficult return. I would plan on using a series of controlled loops carefully places to push your opponent into one side of the table, and then go very wide the other way. The ultimate opponent for this kind of challenge is a Seemiller-style blocker. You play a very wide angle on them, thinking you've got them. However, they don't bother with strokes -- they just block and angle the ball even wider back at you. With these kinds of players, wide angles are definitely a double-edged sword. 3. I would emphasize more spin on your loops instead of speed, unless you've got the perfect put away shot. Even with pips, spiny loops are harder to block. Also, close-to-the-table hitters like a quick tempo and have a harder time adjusting to a slower pace. They're likely to over-hit or under-block. 4. I would keep my loops deep until you see the SP player step back. If the loops are deep then the SP player is forced to hit them quick off the bounce. In that case, they are more likely to block than to hit, giving you more time to react. If the SP player drops back from the table, then you can mix in some shorter loops as well as smashes. Overall, I would recommend that you don't want to let the SP player control the wide angles, or to get their desired rhythm (usually fast pace). You need to be patient to look for your winning shot. |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/24/2013 at 6:03am
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for me I absolutely hate playing against short pips hitters, I like to play off the bounce too but with more spin and less speed in general, so I tend to get jammed against them. Sometimes the match turns quite ugly with both players just serving long and wide and followed by mad countering which I often lose. Slowing down the pace sometimes doesnt really help as they would then block me off the table, utilising wide angles that make me run (same strategy that I often use) :(
Sometimes I think the only way forward is to increase my speed, spin and power in the close table countering and beat them through superior rallying capability. The person serving short seems to be at a disadvantage because we both have good flicks and wide angle pushes that puts the server at an disadvantage, and good blocking which tends to punish the one who is the 1st to attack. I find that typical shakehand pips players are weak at defending curvy elbow shots, and penhold players weaker at their wide FH defense. Those who can generate huge amounts of spin and have high quality long pushes and 3rd balls and good mid distance game tend to fare a bit better against pips players. But I'm just not that comfortable playing that kinda style :( ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 04/24/2013 at 6:18am
The folks at pingskills are telling the same thing - http://www.pingskills.com/table-tennis-forum/tactical-choice-of-serves-against-a-short-pimple-player/ - 1 , http://www.pingskills.com/table-tennis-forum/how-to-play-against-short-pips/ - 2 , http://www.pingskills.com/table-tennis-forum/playing-short-pimpled-rubber/ - 3 . You bet they know what they're talking about. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/24/2013 at 6:22am
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If you're a long pips player just chop push or serve extremely deep underspin while varying the placement, if he tries to attack with hard hits he would make a lot of mistakes(provided the ball is heavy underspin, low and deep), and you should be able to block back a few for winners. Most probably it would be a safe but weaker roll that is placed well. Attack this weak roll strongly to his weak spot or u can chop it deep, it could degenerate into a roll chop rallying as he doesnt want to go to your FH as u can attack strongly from there. Or you can even chop everything back if he struggles against heavy underspin. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 04/24/2013 at 11:25am
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I play with LP OX on the backhand but as I mentioned I am also able to play smooth-smooth as I can loop from both sides. I am also able to twiddle - but with this particular case - he plays very close to the table - I find I don't have enough time to twiddle. Thanks everyone for some great ideas - I am going to have to review the thread and come with a game plan - I can execute - but these ideas everyone has given me is a great help. Another thing with this type of player as someone mentioned above is the "tempo" of the game is very quick - I find I am playing to his speed - points are all very quick - I guess I am just in a react mode as opposed trying to control the points with my strategy. Mind you since I didn't really have strategy - perhaps that is to be expected. ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 04/24/2013 at 12:09pm
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I think there are very good tactics mentioned here... here is my what bothers me as a ph sp hitter (i have played as SH sp bh for a year or so before).... my sp won't generate heavy any spin so 1. if you can get me to push long, a good opponent can normally loop kill me... 2. any shot that i cannot hit because it is low, will normally result in a weak topspin(flick or loop) back which then again a good opponent will loop kill me... Waldner did this to LGL all the time 3. in terms of serves, short serves don't work well because pips is easy to flick or have great placement on pushes 4. back up a step.... pip hits slows down much more then loop does over distance 5. i find with combination players the cross over point becomes a big weak spot 6. I don't know if heavy topspin works well because good short-pippers manipulates spin well you don't want to give them too much to play with... they can block all kind of different kind of spin back.... ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: Loop40mm
Date Posted: 04/24/2013 at 4:29pm
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Not every SP player is the same. I know a shakehand player with SP on backhand. He can hit through topspin and mediocre underspin with ease. For heavy underspin, he uses SP to topspin and there is enough topspin coming back. The general consensus among my friends is to avoid his backhand. When we serve, we serve long to his body or short. I know a penhold SP that likes hitting through no spin or underspin, backhand or forehand. When I do push, it has very heavy underspin. Topspin is a better strategy. When he is able to block the topspin, one has to be careful in looping the ball back. There is the danger of looping the ball to the net. Against SP blockers, it is a timing issue to loop the ball back. I have beaten SP players and I have lost to SP players. The ones who beat me are just better players. ------------- Stiga Ebenholz NCT V FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
Posted By: JacekGM
Date Posted: 04/25/2013 at 12:22am
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For some time (about a year) I used to play with 802-40 (FH) and Spectol (BH). This was an interesting experiment. The hitting was great, but I am permanently back to inverted because I disliked my inability to control all kinds of really light, close to the net, little spin balls. Now, from the professional arena: not too long ago, during the Korean Open http://www.ittf.com/ittv/ - http://www.ittf.com/ittv/ there was a match between Jun Mizutani and Zhan Jian. Pretty good stuff. Zhan Jian uses short pips (it used to be 802-40) on the forehand.
Also, zeio (above) included three very good links, recommended. ------------- (1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH. |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 04/25/2013 at 6:53am
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the other thing is to come in a bit when they attack (as opposed to going to far back to return their shot) as it won't carry as much (more dip and fall) ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 04/25/2013 at 11:06am
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Good point - my first instinct is to back up, especially trying to chop the ball. Maybe staying up trying to block is a better way to go. I looked at Dimitri Oftacharov (sp?) play Zhan Jian - these pro guys just loop everything - Dimitri O was looping everything if JacekGM didn't mention Jian was using short pips - I wouldn't have known. I guess watching TT is far more complicated it appears. ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: bayttplayer
Date Posted: 04/25/2013 at 4:57pm
 well...if he able to hit every thing from you, it real means you are in different level. I only play with one player like that who has BH SP and smoth on FH, his rating about 1800-1900. Is not too difficult play with him. serve long no spin, counter back. serve short on his FH, bush back long BH. when loop, loop in to his body, or slow but very spin. SP can loop and hit, I think you just need to play with him more, get used to the spin and timing. ------------- Innerforce-ZLC FL + H3 + T80 |
Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 04/25/2013 at 8:00pm
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My practice partner for years was a close to the table pips hitter (medium pips mostly), so I am probably at my best against this style. He is an overall better player than I am, so unless I found his exact weakness, I was toast. The only thing that really worked was playing deep into his pips and his elbow with spin variation. He could get used to just about anything if I did it to much, so variation was key. Playing short against him did not work well either, since being very close to the table allowed him to play angles very uncomfortable for me. I mostly used to take half a step away from the table and spin the ball deep with variation until I got something I could put away. ILya ------------- BTY Mazunov ST Dignics 05 |
Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 12:36am
As SP hitter-blocker this is good advice. Above all don't let the SP player hit at angles He Zhi Wen style. ------------- Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br /> |
Posted By: power7
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 1:17am
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To me sp on bh means that's their weaker side and they are compensating for something. It could be mobility, arm speed, spin recognition, etc. So you would play to those weakness. If it is mobility, force them to move. If it is arm speed force to go between fh and bh, or increase your paddle speed to something they can't match. If it is spin recognition, then you're a lp player, mix it up for them. ------------- DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5 Butterfly Power-7, Red TG2 Neo 39degree, Black Donic Bluefire M1 |
Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 2:39am
Why does this myth get repeated over and over again? There are a lot of very good Chinese players that play with SP on just one side of their cpen What are they trying to cover up? What can they cover up? Do they have weak fore-hands too? Perhaps you should discuss this with He Zhi Wen. ------------- Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br /> |
Posted By: power7
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 3:22am
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Name a top 5 Chinese player with sp? Sp on a top players blade means their paddle speed isn't competitive anymore for counter looping. Or they are not as good in reading and countering spin fast enough. Sp is like bringing a dagger into a sword fight. Interesting but not as effective. Señor He, would you use sp if you were 18 again and on the cnt? Tu loco, I would use Ma Lin setup ------------- DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5 Butterfly Power-7, Red TG2 Neo 39degree, Black Donic Bluefire M1 |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 3:26am
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 8:15am
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Tt4me,
The 'hiding something' quote simply means that given the versatility of inverted rubbers, most pips users are people who are unable to use inverted for some reason. The 'good reason' for using pips is that one likes to chop. However, you don't give up a backhand loop unless you never had one. You typically go to pips on the backhand after you have given up on making this your main backhand shot. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 1:20pm
Irrelevant. That doesn't mean that those use SP have weak BHs. It doesn't even mean you can't loop with SP because you can. Looping incoming server top spin balls is a problem and should be avoided but looping back spin or low spin balls is not. I like the light weight and ease of control of SP.
Unless you are too close to use a sword. SP players will avoid looping/counter looping rallies. It seems to me that this is what TT is all about. You chose your weapon and try to make your opponent play your game. jrscatman is having problems because the SP players are forcing their game on him. ------------- Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br /> |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 2:25pm
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Posted By: Loop40mm
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 2:44pm
Watch the SP backhand of Jiang Huajun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YKZ2y0glCs What is she hiding? There is a player, an average player, that I cannot frequently attack his SP backhand. His SP backhand is stronger than his forehand. ------------- Stiga Ebenholz NCT V FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 2:56pm
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well said roundrobin! The "good reason" to use pips is that one likes to chop. Are you kidding me? I play with SPs to attack/block effectively. Jiang Jialiang and Liu Guoliang used SPs but were anything but a chopper. ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: power7
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 3:22pm
Jiang Huajun paddle speed is not as fast as Liu Shi Wen. Maybe because she's larger. But many points were lost to Liu when Liu increased her paddle speed and started looping hard and fast. Jiang even lost a few points against Liu in FH and FH counter looping exchanges, just illustrating she is not as fast as Jiang. It's a classic game between a looper and a block/hitter. So most of the points Jiang wins is the off blocking a loop with her BH SP, Liu slow to recover returns a weaker loop, then changing pace to hitting a smash on the next loop, Liu mis-reads the spin vs speed tries to loop and misses the table. If you know his BH is stronger than is FH, then just keep attacking the FH. ------------- DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5 Butterfly Power-7, Red TG2 Neo 39degree, Black Donic Bluefire M1 |
Posted By: power7
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 3:33pm
I didn't say that exclusively. I stated it might be one reason why they went to SP. Nor did I say SP players aren't good. What I am saying is that they went to SP to compensate for their inability to sustain a loop vs loop game. So you might want to use that against them, if you are a strong looper. Also assuming you're about the same skill level too. Because if you have a pretty weak loop, that you think is very strong, they'll smack it right back at you. But the OP plays with LP on his BH...and twiddles...so maybe my advice is wrong. But who knows, maybe at his club everyone has sandpaper, LP, anti, or SP on their BH? ------------- DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5 Butterfly Power-7, Red TG2 Neo 39degree, Black Donic Bluefire M1 |
Posted By: rick_ys_ho
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 3:46pm
| Jiang Huajun plays medium pips BH. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 3:58pm
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I am not ignorant of anything. I am making casual conversation. Short pips are also good for hitting or taking the ball early, and that is why they are more popular in the women's game. I still stand by the claim that a backhand looper will never even consider pips. I say this as a hitter. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Loop40mm
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 6:12pm
I thought Jiang Huajun used TSP Spectol. Does she use Nittaku or other medium pips? Please specify. ------------- Stiga Ebenholz NCT V FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
Posted By: JacekGM
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 9:39pm
Well, please take it easy tt4... at a turning point in their development they may have chosen pips to make up for a weakness, and then they developed it nicely into a powerful weapon... I personally know a few who followed that path.
------------- (1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH. |
Posted By: JacekGM
Date Posted: 04/26/2013 at 9:49pm
Looping with SP is a little different (used to be called "rolling"). The 802-40 is quite spinny for a pip, but still it's a pip. To me there is a huge difference in the shot execution between a fast loop and how Zhan Jian uses his 802-40 for fast topspins. ------------- (1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH. |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 04/27/2013 at 9:16am
And, what is, to you, a bh looper? A player in our first team, with a Usatt rating of no less then 2500, changed to SP prior to this season. Are you saying that he couldn't loop with his bh? Cause I've seen him play and I certainly think he was perfectly capable of looping with his bh, but he decided to go with SP instead, as he thought this allowed him to finish the point quicker. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 04/27/2013 at 11:55am
| You experiment with different styles and see what best fits your playing style and personality. You commit to a style when you believe it maximizes your game and potential. Some switch to pips because they prefer that playing style. Others do so because they can't get things done with inverted at their level. You can be a 2500 player or even a professional player, but if your BH loop is not good enough to win at your level, you just might consider switching to pips. A BH looper is then simply someone who has committed to looping with inverted on his BH wing because he believes it maximizes his game and potential. |
Posted By: Zhaoyang
Date Posted: 04/27/2013 at 12:26pm
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Whatever you call it, Zhan Jian's forehand is a fully developed, big stroke, and his legs and shoulders and footwork are fully developed too. So, why would he not use inverted so he can loop? Probably for the same reason some pros use H2 instead of e.g. T05: because they believe driving is more effective than looping. I agree with that. So, in reply to someone who says people use pips because they can't loop, I could reply that (most people) loop either because they can't hit straight or because they think a loop is more effective than a drive. That's an opinion and they choose their equipment accordingly, just like pips players. What do I mean "can't hit straight"? On youtube are videos of Gao Jun vs. Ben Johnson (high ranking (U.S.) male looper). It's pretty funny; you should check it out. She makes him look goofy. (No, that doesn't prove anything. It's just funny, like this thread.)
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Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 04/27/2013 at 1:49pm
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I can think of two example from the pro ranks that are interesting. Stellan Bengtsson, 1971 World Champion, originally played smooth on both sides. Somewhere in the late seventies or early eighties he switched to SP on the backhand. My impression is that he didn't feel confident that his BH loop was that strong at the world elite level.
Second, more recent example is Johnny Huang, who played SP on both sides. Johnny looped from both sides with his SP but he was able to vary the spin more and have more deception on his loops with SP. |
Posted By: JacekGM
Date Posted: 04/27/2013 at 3:46pm
There was a time when I tried to mimic Johnny Huang's game... I am back to all inverted, my hitting was great but control on light, especially close to the net balls was terrible. I watched all available Johnny's matches. I would never say he looped - he hit, blocked, smashed, played drop-shots and fast-rolled. A great athlete, player and a gracious sportsmen. ------------- (1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/27/2013 at 9:22pm
+1000. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/27/2013 at 9:39pm
So what about his game makes this so? He likes to take the ball earlier on just his backhand? The point here is that looping is a devastating weapon. If you win points with it a higher level, you would never use pips. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: JacekGM
Date Posted: 04/27/2013 at 9:45pm
Not that I am trying to keep this thread on the topic... my answer is: don't give the short pip hitter spin, play low, light, and place it to move him out of position. ------------- (1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH. |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 04/27/2013 at 11:23pm
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Thanks JacekGM - As I mentioned earlier - quite a few suggestions have been given - I'll just try it all see which ones I can correctly execute and see which ones my friend has trouble with. Since we are both intermediate players it'll probably come down to least amount of unforced errors. Taking pace off was something I wasn't trying - I was trying to hit it past him. I would like to beat his short pips BH rather than go away from it - it's sort of interesting trying to figure out a way to neutralize it! ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 1:43am
The same thing could be said about SP, they are a devestating weapon when it comes to hitting and if you win points with it at higher level, you would never use inverted. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 1:56am
Of course, you could say that. The problem is that most top players don't use short pips and aren't beating double inverted players with them, making the claim empirically vacuous. So in absolute terms given modern circumstances, inverted is the more flexible and powerful surface. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 4:09am
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* |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 5:15am
In what year did you have these conversations that you use to make it sound like you have experts on your side? These all sound like ancient history from the spin pips, speed glue and 38mm ball days, and not related at all to contemporary table tennis. I will let the results speak for themselves. You simply want to imagine a world in which inverted players are dominated by pips players because you can imagine it. That world passed away in the 1990s and early 2000s with the rule changes affecting the aspect ratio of pips. In the real world, pips players are dominated by inverted players simply because the power and spin that inverted can generate from various distances makes it hard to play with pips in the men's game. That is the sense in which pips are inferior. If we could change the rules back to what they were before 1998, we would be on a more level playing field. But pips are now inferior. It doesn't mean that one can't play well without them. It doesn't mean that they aren't a good surface. It does mean that if you decide to go with pips instead of inverted, you simply decided to give up on playing a high spin game. And a high spin game, given the power men possess, is going to be the dominant TT game unless the new ball does something to change that (unlikely). ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 5:36am
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Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 7:33am
IMO roundrobin is right on the money, and NextLevel should give us all a rest from his tedious theories which only serve to highlight his lack of real knowledge which he tries to disguise with high school debating techniques. Its really sad that the few knowledgeable posters on the forum are continually interrupted by pathetic types, who are unable to admit that others are wiser. ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 8:01am
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I think NextLevels argument can apply to all the left handed players too instead of pip-ers..... Results speaks for themselves, no major championship has been won for a while by lefties... I think XuXin and Timo and Mizutani 's games aren't modern enough.... They need to be playing right handed like ZJK is... ROFL.... ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 9:39am
1. You did not answer any of my questions about the timing of these conversations. 2. If your argument was easily correct, they could have overwhelmed the world with two-sided pips players as well and yet did not do so. Or even one-sided C or J-Penners. Or maybe they can overwhelm the world with two-sided long-pips players. After all, equipment doesn't really matter. All that matters is that China has the resources to do whatever it wants. 3. I have attributed it to the superiority of double inverted play given the power that men have to project the ball over long distances. If you are right, someone will challenge the Chinese with a style that is not inverted. Let's wait and see. If there were more pips players on the CNT, I would agree with you. In this modern age, the dominance of a style can't just be because everyone is being dumb. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: power7
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:09am
You're assuming there is no evolution of the TT game within China massive community. If a better tactical strategy was discovered by some player or coach, you don't think they would use it to obtain the "riches and bitches" in China. If there was an advantage for a healthy male athlete to use SP or anti or sandpaper at the pinnacle of the game on their BH, it would have been done already. It's like that Butterfly Tenergy BH and DHS Hurricane/TG FH argument. If they could find something better for their BH and FH they would have moved on already. Unless they are doing it because they are sponsored by DHS and Butterfly... ------------- DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5 Butterfly Power-7, Red TG2 Neo 39degree, Black Donic Bluefire M1 |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:21am
Thanks. Since my opinion is not just mine and is actually shared by players far better than myself and yourself, I think your position is in part sourced from your dislike of me and your use of pips on both sides. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: shay2be
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:30am
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SPIN! ------------- Timo Boll ZLC Xiom Vega Japan Tenergy 80 - FX Rating: 2065 |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:37am
Name a pips on both sides player in the top 10 today. Name a left-hander in the top 10. See the difference? 3 beats none. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: speedy
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:54am
Today is your lucky day. I am a short-pips backhand player for years. I hit through almost anything, especially backspin. The more backspin you give me, the better I hit. I see that you have many good suggestions. I will sum it up and give away my secrets here: 1. Serve long, must be low, dead (no spin) ball to the backhand 2. Go to the elbow more #1 and #2 will not work 100% for sure. But here is #3 will work like a charm. Ready? 3. Go wide to the side of that backhand with medium speed. (Too slow: he will have time and be able to hit it through, Too Fast: all he has to to is stick his paddle out there and block. it's difficult but with good reflex he can do it). So, why go wide? and go more to the side? And why medium speed (alternate to slow one of those ball)? Medium speed: Usually short pips or any pips players rely on the speed of the ball. With medium speed going to him, he can hit, but he will must be really good (US rating 2200 and above) to be able to keep it consistent. Otherwise, he will hit into the net of those ball coming at him slower/lower than the others. Wide and Side: As we all know, pips has less spins than inverted. It's hard to go to the side and try to bend the ball back in. There is no spin on that pips to carry the ball back in. I find this one is very tricky for me to play against. 4. Short pips players are very comfortable staying in the middle of the table and play with you side-to-side. However, they don't like wide angle ball, and they don't like their opponent changing pace on the ball on them. Good luck, ------------- SPEEDY Viscaria Super ALC ST JOOLA Rhyzen CMD(FH) Nittaku Moristo SP (BH) |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 12:51pm
The problem here is that even though someone already may have discovered a better way of playing, all the resources go to those who play the conventional style. If the top coaches spots 5 kids, with roughly the same amount of talent, and 4 of them play a conventional looping fame, while the 5th plays with LP/SP and manages to keep up with the others, the coaches will look at it and claim that his style isn't viable in the top, so they spend their resources on the conventional players. In time, they will be proven right, since "their" players will progress more, due to having better coaching. As long as China are able to dominate the world with their current style, why risk anything and spend resources on another style? There was a time when China dominated the world with sp, but the world found an answer to that and this is what forced them to change their way. If the world once again finds an answer to their current style, I'm sure they will study this new style very hard and then come up with something to match it, and this might be going back to sp, or some other change in the game. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 3:07pm
I would just point out that I played double inverted in tournaments from 1968 -1988 with an 18 month intermission for black&black with LP circa 1978, and changed to play with sp from 1989 to 2013, and currently though I am a hitter, I do use a bh loop from time to time, even though I use sp! I have had many opportunies to play with and talk to, and be coached by, nationally ranked players over those years. I recognise that there are quite a few people on this forum who have not been as fortunate in their experience as I have, and yet because they are sensible intelligent people, with a well balanced outlook they are able to contribute in a positive interesting fashion, unlike yourself, and your boring determination to defend a position with pathetically weak arguments, made worse by your palpable lack of any experience or understanding of competitive tt at all. ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 6:02pm
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Haha. We just had a French dude visit our Korea Foreign TTA and he defeated both our aces 3-0 and 3-1 using a control game with SP on both sides. Dude simply stayed in points and had a contract with the net. he will be a very valuable member in upcoming national tourneys. Our aces are rated 2200-2300+ but right now are playing significantly stronger, like National Div 1 and Div 2. This French dude rocked using SP on both sides. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 6:18pm
Name a lefty major winner?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Name a pip winner? LGL JJL WangTao.... Huge difference between top ten and major winner.... So no dun see a difference.... ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 6:22pm
Thx speedy 3 was a really good point.... Never thot about it that way ------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 9:58pm
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I am still sticking with my assertion that it isn't the material that jrscatman is playing against, it is the style or the person. After the opponent hits the ball the ball doesn't care what kind of paddle the opponent used to hit it. The ball is 'committed' to a trajectory and spin. It seems that too much of this thread is about the material but what if jrscatman could learn to twiddle a little faster, chop better away from the table, chop block better when closer to the table etc. The new abilities would help him beat an assortment of players. A lot of the above suggestions are good ones but jrscatman must still be able to execute them. Keeping the ball low is good advice against all styles of players. The same goes for hitting deep into the corners and at the elbow. It still isn't clear to me what jrscatman does with his LP 0X. The people I have played against with the Palio LP 0X pips use them for blocking at the table not chopping. If so, it appears that jrscatman has a problem blocking balls deep to the corners and at the elbow and keeping the balls low at the same time. I still think this is an execution problem. If these basic shots can be done then the spin reversal from the LPs should slow down the SP attacker a little bit.
About that. Yesterday I was playing against a Chinese cpen hitter and I was playing with my LP 0X. I place two balls very short of the opposite sides of the table. First to his FH and then to his BH. The cpen hitter surprised me because he I have never seen him move that fast. With a blind stab at the ball from below the table with the LP on back side of his paddle he got it back and I muffed it. A year ago or even 6 months ago that shot would have been impossible because he wouldn't even have tried. He would have complimented me on my ability to place the ball so well. The cpen hitter said it was a lucky shot. I said may be but it took effort to move that quickly from side to side. The point is that effort gives us more chances to be lucky. ------------- Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br /> |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/28/2013 at 11:40pm
Timo Boll has won the World Cup twice, Xu Xin has won it once. Gatien was a lefty as well. You can push this lefty argument as long as you want to, but lefties are about 10% of the population so they usually exceed their general representation in most racquet sports. Stop revealing your inability to make good points against an opinion you disagree with. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 12:32am
LOL! I am glad you see my point bro, no one in their right mind would argue against left-handed players. Just like no one in their right mind should argue against pip out players... we have a difference of opinion and i am not necessarily trying to convert you... Arguing is a fun process and we can expand our knowledge in the process... but i think bottom line for me is that discriminating against legal pip-out players is against sportsmanship and even human decency... so i guess if i have hurt you feeling i am sorry... (some posts in these threads are getting really personal but i guess its all part of the fun on the forum) i think play whatever maximizes the your game, playing level or enjoyment... lefty, pip out or not its all fair under the rules... Mizutani i think is actually right handed, switched to playing lefty because i guess it made him a better player... In Li Xiao Dong's article on short pips he mentioned he switched 饶静文's bh to sp because it made her a better player... and no one can really say they made a bad move... like i said if it is legal then it is fair and shouldn't be discriminated against disregarding where the modern table tennis game is going... i understand they are trying to make the game more entertaining for TV (lp blocking is hard to enjoy because you can't see the spin variations on TV)... all the rule changes seems to have that goal in mind... But just like you shouldn't play amateur football like the NFL unless you want dead players... Amateurs' body is not conditioned to play at such high physically demanding level... LGL once remarked that 'one superstar will destroy a generation of amateurs imitators' and i think thats exactly why... Ultimately it is a different game that the pros and the amateur plays. So no matter where the modern game is going its ridiculous to let the pros dictate how we should play
------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 7:34am
+1000. Arguing is a fun process and I do not discriminate against pips players. I was coached by one, I sometimes practice against them with my current coach, I have pips on one of my rackets and have considered switching many times because I take the ball early, often can't and hate backing off the table and like to block the ball short. At my club, we have many pips players. I played one yesterday, and there is another who was very helpful in developing my backhand hit against underspin and in shortening my forehand stroke (ok, that one still needs some work). I remember when an older man (pips player) who was once one of the top players in the US was playing an inverted player about 10 to 15 years younger. The older man said "This inverted - you can just spin the ball - that is nothing. This pips require timing and technique." So the question of course was why was he using pips - apart from being used to them, they helped him play close to the table as he wasn't going to back up. But the problem was also that when hard looks were thrown at him, he couldn't always block them. That I don't think a Pips player can be world champion is based on the power in the men's game and the reaction times one has to have to consistently take the ball early. I do believe that pips champions can still exist in the women's game because the ball is slower and women can take the ball early, though as more powerful loopers go into the women's game, these pips players will have a harder time as well. I love watching Yi Shanfei play loopers all the time for that reason. And if I am considering using pips and have been considering using pips, I think it's fair to say that I have nothing against the surface. Those who use them put in many hours. I just think inverted is a superior surface because of the way men use their power. As for the personal posts, I can't take them too personally. Both players would probably beat me with a clipboard and don't like my attitude in general. I have learned a lot from both of them. We don't have to get along as long as we don't get too distracted. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 1:33pm
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Nextlevel, are any of the LP players you play against twiddlers? If so what is your reaction to twiddlers? This is a topic that hasn't been stressed too much in this thread but I strongly feel that LP and anti players should learn how to twiddle. I think jrscatman should learn how to twiddle faster so he can twiddle in a rally. I know this is a different issue that how to play against SP players but if jrscatman is playing with LPs then he can catch many of his opponents off guard by twiddling. I read above that jrscatman doesn't think he can twiddle fast enough. It simply takes practice. I have seen people twiddle very fast and it is just a nervous habit. I practiced twiddling watching TV or doing something else. I wanted to be able to twiddle without even thinking about it. It helps to have straight round handles for twiddling. ------------- Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br /> |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 2:18pm
tt4me - thanks for the suggestion. I've actually started to twiddle more matches with lower level players. Quite a few times, I've been caught in the awful middle twiddle position - but is an interesting skill. I guess since I have LP & Smooth at my disposal - I wanted to get a clear understanding of what causes problems for short pip players and then try to develop a strategy based on that. ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 6:02pm
It all depends on the player - at the lower levels (1000-2000), short pips players are usually unable to hit at least one of the three main spins consistently, and it is usually underspin. But in your case, it might be the dead ball. I would be curious to know what happens when you serve him low long balls with your pips, both long and short. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: power7
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 6:29pm
You answered your own question. SP was defeated by inverted looping. So what has happened in TT that assumes SP will defeat inverted looping in the near future? They have so many internal matches in those training sessions. So if a LP/SP genius came along and defeated inverted loopers the coach will acknowledge it. There are so many coaches and so many training centers in China. So if a developing player doesn't like a system they can move to another training center. There is a whole local, provincial, and national system a kid could develop in. If they are consistently winning against inverted loopers with SP/LP at competition, why wouldn't anyone acknowledge it and copy it. And they do because the top 100 players there's are sprinkles of pip players, anti, etc. But in the top 5 - 10 it is dominated by loopers, which isn't an accident. It's because the style is that good. But the reality is that SP is relegated to older players that play with SP when they were young. Or older inverted loopers that lost the paddle speed and moved onto SP...oh and girls...lol. ------------- DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5 Butterfly Power-7, Red TG2 Neo 39degree, Black Donic Bluefire M1 |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 6:55pm
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 7:40pm
Thanks for the education.
Timothy doesn't have anything close to her experience. The more and more I learn about this sport, I realize that you have to have the right experiences, the right competition and access to the people with the right kind of information or you will struggle to get better. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 8:26pm
You only have to study the history of the game:-
Japan introduced new levels of spin,power & athleticism to overcome Europes consistent allrounders Until this point every world champion chopped at least some of the time. Not any more!! China turns the world on its head with close to the table SPEED rocking back the Topspin of Japan Japan and Europeans take advantage of China's political troubles to produce a Topspin and Speed Glue revolution, we start to see shots that go round the net. Chinas response is to produce combi bat players and a new wave of sp hitters playing close to the table. SPEED is back To me this is a wonderful period. The swedish players produce a blend of power, spin and speed and all court movement ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: Pongz
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 8:45pm
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imho, sometimes people don't realise that rule and equipment changes favor one style while hinder other styles... By knowing history, we can understand better the 'why'... Hopefully, this will help us to understand future game which always evolve... For example, my coach was in the same team with Zhuan Ze Dong (~1950-'60)... He used very old bat, never put emphasize in technology, only technique... which is fine.... He always said in chinese "the old is not necessary worse, the new is not necessary better" imho, he is right but he is also wrong... His technique in his era emphasize hitting more than looping... In his era either the sponge was dead or not thick enough (Correct if I'm wrong).. so he always coach us to put emphasize on hitting.. whereas imho, the sponge and current technology favors topspin play... imho, the lesson to learn here is that table tennis is always evolving.. what may work today may not be working as effectively as before as time progresses... don't stuck in the old paradigm because we just simply following.. We need to go further by understanding the reason why people do certain things... nothing stay the same.. what is constant is change.... one day people will figure out how to beat china, beat certain style, etc... it is inevitable as LGL said... it is just a matter of time... ...cycle of life... :) ------------- Butterfly Sardius FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
Posted By: power7
Date Posted: 04/29/2013 at 11:10pm
I really think you have to rethink what's going on in PRC when it comes to the TT scene. You really think the millions of PRC citizens playing TT for the sole purpose of beating another country. Maybe the CNT members think in sort of that mindset, but everyone else is trying to beat other PRC players for the most part. So if someone develops a SP strategy to beat 2 wing looping for a spot on the CNT, I don't see why coaching on the CNT would force that player to change to 2 wing inverted looping. The CNT coaches are old enough to remember SP game during its heyday. Seems like the more obvious reason, besides this great conspiracy against SP, is that 2 wing looping is really effective. PRC players with with hard tacky rubber vs their European/Japanese softy grippy rubber, which is evidence they have evolved 2 wing looping to the next level. Jiaqi Zheng was trained in the PRC. So I have no idea why your stuck on this PRC conspiracy against SP. Cause she obviously didn't listen to anyone coaching her in your hypothetical PRC 2 wing looping system. So instead of the CNT she ended up on the Beijing TT Team...ugh...loser...instead of beating other countries in TT, she has to get an MBA in the US. Yeah any reject from the PRC TT system usually does very well overseas, because they love playing TT. I don't see what that has to do with Timothy Wang who for the most part trained in the US. Just look at their world ranking difference if you think a game between them would result in anything different (there is about 300 ranking difference). Sure have Jiaqi Zheng (140) play Ma Long (1) which is only like a 139 ranking difference. If she wins, I'm sure everyone on the CNT will copy her style. So your argument just supports my position. SP is for old guys and girls...lol. ------------- DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5 Butterfly Power-7, Red TG2 Neo 39degree, Black Donic Bluefire M1 |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 04/30/2013 at 3:47am
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the best aRgument is that no lefty has been able to play a final in a wttc or OG in 16 years, wang liquin coach gave an explanation why lefties cant win but it was very complicated, indeed in china lefties are not succesful but women, there are a lot of stats about that
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Posted By: JohnnyChop
Date Posted: 04/30/2013 at 9:57am
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I think even the two wing power looper game is evolving too... Ma long and zhang jike are very different two wing loopers and they definitely are different from wang liqin.... I think maybe in a few years time we will arguing against fh dominate power loopers like ma long or all around loopers like samsonov and boll instead of short pips?? I don't think talking about where modern tt is evolving to have any merit in our argument.... Because I think the truth is if that's the case then all European styles including the great waldner is really phrasing out too... Then we move to a Chinese supremacist type of mentality?
------------- 729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 04/30/2013 at 6:06pm
I have heard this argument about lefties before, but I am not sure I agree with it. Lefty Zhou Yu won the Chinese National Championship last year, which is probably the hardest tournament in the world to win. Hao Shuai, while seldom allowed to play outside, has been one of the top players in the Superleague for the last few years as well. ILya ------------- BTY Mazunov ST Dignics 05 |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 04/30/2013 at 7:58pm
but how many lefty players have won the chinese nationals? |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/30/2013 at 8:37pm
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