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Timo vs Kuka

Printed From: Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET
Category: General
Forum Name: General
Forum Description: This forum is for general discussions about table tennis.
Moderator: JimT
Assistant Moderators: mmerkel

URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65221
Printed Date: 11/21/2017 at 10:26am


Topic: Timo vs Kuka
Posted By: techguy6
Subject: Timo vs Kuka
Date Posted: 02/21/2014 at 1:38pm
Who will win?
http://www.kuka-timoboll.com/en/home/


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tech guy



Replies:
Posted By: Pondus
Date Posted: 02/21/2014 at 2:00pm
timeline


Posted By: techguy6
Date Posted: 02/21/2014 at 2:06pm
Here: 



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tech guy


Posted By: puppy412
Date Posted: 02/21/2014 at 2:41pm
kuka has chicken wing loop LOL


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 02/21/2014 at 2:54pm
I think the more important question, considering this is mytabletennis.net, is what is KUKA's set up?


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Blade - Butterfly Joo Saehyuk ST
Forehand - Xiom Omega 5 Asia
Backhand - Xiom Vega Europe DF


Posted By: puppy412
Date Posted: 02/21/2014 at 3:05pm
joola rossi emotion with xiom vega china fh and tibhar grass bh

his backup blade is stiga defensive from 1975 (before christ)
fh -> xiom vega amateur antipodes islands 748
bh -> dhs h3 compton hood pink sponge


Posted By: in2spin
Date Posted: 02/21/2014 at 3:31pm
~ story from digitaltrends website:

Agilus the robot has balls – albeit of the Ping-Pong variety – as next month it’ll go up against German table tennis pro Timo Boll in a potentially dramatic man-against-machine sports-based face-off.

Built by German robot specialists Kuka Robotics – a firm which you may be surprised to learn has not been acquired by Google (though one can well imagine the Mountain View company buying its creation and sticking it in its Googleplex game room some time soon) – Ping-Pong-playing Agilus will battle against Boll on March 11 at a special event celebrating the opening of a new Kuka production plant in Shanghai.

According to the company’s website, Ping-Pong pro Boll is one of the world’s top players with several international trophies to his name. The left-hander is known as one of the game’s cleverest tacticians, though whether his talent is enough to outwit his robotic opponent remains to be seen.

As for Agilus, we currently know nothing of its skill as a table tennis player as it’s usually hard at work in a factory, with little time for frivolous leisure activities involving bats and balls. It is, however, touted as “the fastest robot in the world,” suggesting Boll will have to be at the top of his game in order to secure victory over Agilus and to ensure other robots stop getting any highfalutin ideas about taking over the world.

To score a win, Bol may be tempted to play nothing but short, wide shots with massive backspin, with Agilus’s limited reach from a fixed base a definite shortcoming. As for Agilus, if it can just keep getting the ball back, the German player may become exhausted, disillusioned, or simply bored into making mistakes, handing a historic win to the robot community.

So who do you think’ll come out on top in this intriguing contest? The all-human all-parts-his-own Boll or the brainless bot with a bat?

Place your bets now.



Posted By: puppy412
Date Posted: 02/21/2014 at 3:43pm
what if instead of timo boll they put ma long vs kuka.
it would be machine vs machine LOL


Posted By: vanityq
Date Posted: 03/10/2014 at 8:35am
this is tomorrow guys.. hope not to get frustrated with the duel

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0o0o0o0o0o0 -=- Loop2kiLL -=- 0o0o0o0o0o0o



SPINCLUB Las Pinas City | Captain Table Tennis Club


Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 03/10/2014 at 10:03am
Originally posted by puppy412 puppy412 wrote:

what if instead of timo boll they put ma long vs kuka.
it would be machine vs machine LOL


Ma Long has psychological issues, ergo he is not a machine. But KUKA is probably more sensitive than ZJK, who knows...


Posted By: smash_fan
Date Posted: 03/10/2014 at 12:23pm
Those are pretty cool looking shoes Timo is wearing... anyone know which ones they are?

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Blade: All wood
Rubbers: Tenergy


Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 03/10/2014 at 2:47pm
I doubt the robot will have a chance unless Timo Boll must play with a lot of restrictions.  Table tennis is not as constrained as chess.   There are many more options.  I see TT as a contest between two players that try to impose their chaos on the other.  While I think the robot can execute under normal conditions.  I don't think it can adapt to the strange.

Do you guys remember the thread called 'A pushblocker tutorial'.   Cory Eider would serve very high balls to Pushblocker and Pushblocker didn't know what to do with them.   I think Timo could simply lob balls up high so they bounce over the robot's arm.   Another options is to serve very short.  Can the robot reach the net.  What if Timo simply chops the ball?  Can the robot see Timo chopping or can the robot see the back spin of the ball?

The robot doesn't have a chance.  This is the way it was in chess for many years.  Eventually companies like IBM made computer programs that can beat the best people but it didn't happen overnight.   Perhaps in another 20 years.

The sad thing is that they will be too expensive for cheap tt players.

Who cares about shoes????




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Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br />


Posted By: vanityq
Date Posted: 03/11/2014 at 12:43am
http://x" rel="nofollow - i ts just a movie and not a game play, cgi game :(
nice marketing for robotics...





Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 03/11/2014 at 1:20am
Haha Kuka Trolled everyone! Well done Marketers LOL

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http://www.youtube.com/advancedfirefly - http://www.youtube.com/advancedfirefly
TBALC
plus 2 rubbers


Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 03/11/2014 at 6:35am
bad movie at that (i couldn't finish it). The guys who did the graphics have not seen much table tennis. The stupid thing is not even trying to make a real shot . And the cameras are always in the face or somewhere else but you can't really see the contact with the ball. U can't tell whats going on. All this fuss, impotent robot, and poor graphics designers. 

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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out


Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 03/11/2014 at 6:41am
This was shot in Boyana Film Center last November. Guys who saw the robot said Timo was going to advertise some dentist stuff. Now you see why.




Posted By: in2spin
Date Posted: 03/11/2014 at 6:59am
yeah it was kinda weak

:)


Posted By: Abaijon
Date Posted: 03/11/2014 at 7:03am
What a pile of ****!


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/11/2014 at 9:20am
And the award for biggest disappointment of the year goes to...


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Blade - Butterfly Joo Saehyuk ST
Forehand - Xiom Omega 5 Asia
Backhand - Xiom Vega Europe DF


Posted By: amateur
Date Posted: 03/11/2014 at 12:23pm
Timo Boll is trending on Facebook, and the video gets picked up everywhere by mainstream media.

I guess KUKA knew what they were doing...


Posted By: JonathanVN
Date Posted: 03/11/2014 at 12:27pm
Glad that this appears to be beneficial to table tennis recognition. I know a lot of people that were talking about "this European playing a robot" who hardly know anything about the sport. It does indeed look like KUKA new what they were doing.

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2015 USATT Ratings:
1823 (Jan)
1840 (Feb)


Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 03/12/2014 at 3:37pm
Anyone knows what is the setup of Kuka?


Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 03/12/2014 at 3:39pm
Looks terrible.





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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red



Posted By: liulin04
Date Posted: 03/12/2014 at 3:40pm
watched the first 30 seconds after the teaser, big let down...


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My Youtube Channel: PingPong Rally On

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Posted By: Aquaman
Date Posted: 03/12/2014 at 4:34pm
So what is the general consensus here?  Was it real or faked/CGI?  I think it could be done if the rubber was antispin (the spin is obviously ignored, e.g., at 1:20) and the research was a very well kept secret.  Years ago there were other Ping-Pong playing robots as university research projects, with multiple cameras for robot sensors.  A picture of one can be seen on page 2 of the Amazon preview here: http://www.amazon.com/Robot-Ping-Pong-Player-Experiments-Intelligence/dp/0262511606#reader_0262511606" rel="nofollow - http://www.amazon.com/Robot-Ping-Pong-Player-Experiments-Intelligence/dp/0262511606#reader_0262511606 .
There is no revelation as to what the sensor set up was for this Kuka video, or who the researchers were.
Here are more recent developments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_qN3dgYGqE" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_qN3dgYGqE .
http://gizmodo.com/this-ping-pong-playing-robot-arm-is-probably-better-tha-1538923351" rel="nofollow - http://gizmodo.com/this-ping-pong-playing-robot-arm-is-probably-better-tha-1538923351
Obviously, these not at the same level as this Kuka robot.  For a robot to be able to play at the level of this Kuka robot, the research would have made a splash in the academic world--again, unless it's kept very secret.
 
 
 
 


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Blade: JUIC Stellan Bengtsson Alpha
FH: JOOLA Rhyzm 2.0
BH: JOOLA Rhyzm 425 2.0



Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 03/13/2014 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Aquaman Aquaman wrote:

So what is the general consensus here?  Was it real or faked/CGI?
It is real but highly staged and edited.

Quote
  I think it could be done if the rubber was antispin (the spin is obviously ignored, e.g., at 1:20) and the research was a very well kept secret.
There isn't much to keep secret.  The required physics is simple. 

Quote
Obviously, these not at the same level as this Kuka robot.
The robot itself is not that sophisticated.  There is some external processor that is doing most of the vision and trajectory calculations and then downloading the position for the robot to go too. That part is not shown.  It make the robot seem better than it really is.

Quote
  For a robot to be able to play at the level of this Kuka robot, the research would have made a splash in the academic world--again, unless it's kept very secret.
 
nah.   I do agree it would take time.  There are formulas for all of the calculations but the coefficients of the formulas need to be worked out.  There is a technique called system identification that can do this rapidly compared to simply using trial and error.



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Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br />


Posted By: in2spin
Date Posted: 03/13/2014 at 12:23pm
incredibly fake and totally staged

:)


Posted By: amateur
Date Posted: 03/14/2014 at 11:51pm
Over 3 million views now on YouTube (and that's without China).


Posted By: TonyL
Date Posted: 03/15/2014 at 5:01am
It was really disappointing because it was highly staged.

;/


Posted By: marcos78
Date Posted: 03/17/2014 at 9:12am
Really, really bad, robots are far away from humans yet. Totally dissapointed.

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Hail, hail, ping pong.


Posted By: regiz.rugenz
Date Posted: 03/17/2014 at 11:52am

bump..


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Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°


Posted By: regiz.rugenz
Date Posted: 03/17/2014 at 11:55am

Come on people..

I've both studied robots and likewise played table tennis.. these 2 departments are my fave. worked a decade in robotics at our R&D and automation. Robots can never play like the pros in table tennis, not even close.

I'm also into motion graphics and 3D motion, and it's quite obvious how the angle shots were captured and thereby edited in the software, such as to add maneuvering of the scenes in the video to hide those angles where Kuka's arm can't be manipulated or taught to perform such task

Even the programmer himself, should also be able to play like a pro and have a good knowledge of the sports both scientifically and physically, in order for him to transfer that into technology. Does he have any idea at all how much a pro player could actually impart a spin on the ball and how reactive are the rubbers we all use.. such that he could program the arm to position the paddle at such angle and instruct to swing the arm in motion relative to the speed of the opposite incoming ball and brush through it for a return with a good height over the net? 

Even with a given coefficient of friction of the rubbers in use, how will he compute to make adjustments on the arm angles for some other variables, such as pushes made fake with little or no spins. though that part can be taken cared of through cameras and motion sensors to calculate spins imparted on the ball, but while the ball catapults on speed and curves on mid air, even changes it's own projectile on its descend relative to the spin which is unique to every rubber, that is extremely difficult..

That's not even to mention those acceleration imparted by these new tension sponges that largely varies depending on how much force was applied against it upon impact which is unpredictable plus their own elastic attributes that each of us all are continuously amazed of.

And much more..


For that... I'll show you a no gimmick but all real robot applicable to the sport.
   http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65602&PN=1#788000" rel="nofollow - The spiniest and fastest throwing robot from Japan. .

For those who are still unsure if those videos you've watched was unreal and just for a movie, well I'm a disabled and a US PARA hopeful... but watch me I can fly  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIvqft95_iY" rel="nofollow - here.   

CHEERS! °Q(ツ)/ 





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Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°


Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 03/17/2014 at 1:33pm
@regiz.rugenz, I don't see what you are complaining about.  Everyone agrees the video is poor.

While I agree that robots will never play like people I don't agree that they will never be able to beat the best but it will take a long time just like it took a long time for a chess computer to beat the world chess champion.  The chess computer also had the benefit of having the best of chess history downloaded into is memory to help evaluate positions.  A table tennis robot will have to learn to adapt quickly.

I don't agree the that the programmer needs to know how to play table tennis well.  He just needs to have a good understanding of programming and physics.  The equations are all well known. The coefficients for those equations are not known or even constant so one must do some system identification so these coefficients can changes as a function of speeds, spins, directions etc.  The robot would have to be able to change these coefficients while during play to adapt to differences in the opponents rubbers.

The math exists now. It is just a matte of time and money before a world champion robot can be made.  One obvious flaw it that the robot has "no foot work".   It is in a fixed location where it should be able to move left and right and forward and back as well as move it arm.  Moving a robot of that weight forwards, backwards and side ways would stress the mechanics.  The mechanics would be the limiting factor, not the physics, software, computing power or vision systems.

My company actually makes controllers for robotic applications as well as other applications. Many involve scanning systems. 



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Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br />


Posted By: regiz.rugenz
Date Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

>>>@regiz.rugenz, I don't see what you are complaining about.  Everyone agrees the video is poor.

>>>A table tennis robot will have to learn to adapt quickly.

>>>I don't agree the that the programmer needs to know how to play table tennis well.  He just needs to have a good understanding of programming and physics.  The equations are all well known. 

 >>>The robot would have to be able to change these coefficients while during play to adapt to differences in the opponents rubbers.

>>>One obvious flaw it that the robot has "no foot work".   It is in a fixed location where it should be able to move left and right and forward and back as well as move it arm. 


 are you kidding me? Evil Smile 


Who's complaining?

i'm only expressing my thoughts and they are facts, not opinion. Wink

I program robots myself with V++, an advance software developed by Adept Automation in US. I've once worked as a Sr. Robotech Specialist for a disc manufacturer, specializing in Adept, Seiko, Fanuc, and the best from Germany called Staubli. They are all in par with Kuka and are called manipulators.

There are mainly 3 types of robots, Cartesian, SCARA, and the 6 axis Manipulator. Cartesian robots move by sliding along XYZ axis coordinate system and are not fixed in one location. this applies to your statement if you want a robot that moves, without loosing it's taught points.

However this is different with SCARA or the 6 axis Robots. They are faster as they mimic human arm movements cutting through all the XYZ coordinates to reach a point in space. But they have to be securely fixed in a fixture or bolted down to ground. Doing so assures accurate manipulation of each joints of the arm in space within a thousandth of a millimeter per millisecond accuracy.

The end-effector however, as in case of kuka is where his paddle securely attached into. it should not be held loosely or wobbly as oppose to the way we hold our paddles, for it will loose its taught point in space.. this may be also one important factor to note that from there alone robots will never play as good as the elites. and there's tons of factors to consider if you understand the precision required of it to reach the level of the elites with so much human of a flexibility. Robots doesn't work that way.

Vision is a separate entity, that looks at an object in space and relays data to the controller which then manipulates the arm.. but they are slower in accomplishing task if use to instruct a robot to reach a taught point in space on fly. How much more for a table tennis ball that curves in air on its trajectory in an unknown geometry relevant to the spin imparted on it, even dives at the opponents end court with such unknown trajectory that I have not encountered in my physics class, thus is what we normally see on a speeding launched missile on its descent before hitting it's target.. unless of course programmed.

So, what do you know about these stuffs? and who's complaining what? ... LOL!

Anyway, just a thought.. 

CHEERS!  ✌(ツ)°⁀°Q(ツ)








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Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°


Posted By: Pondus
Date Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:34pm
Nerdiest trash-talking ever going down in here... Thumbs Up


Posted By: liulin04
Date Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by Pondus Pondus wrote:

Nerdiest trash-talking ever going down in here... Thumbs Up


+1

I ignored everything until I saw the world Robotech, reminds me of the 80s anime, Macross/Robotech


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My Youtube Channel: PingPong Rally On

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35056&PN=13&title=feedback-liulin04" rel="nofollow - My Feedbacks


Posted By: regiz.rugenz
Date Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:

Originally posted by Pondus Pondus wrote:

Nerdiest trash-talking ever going down in here... Thumbs Up
+1
I ignored everything until I saw the world Robotech, reminds me of the 80s anime, Macross/Robotech

Pondus
Except there's no trash-talk in my post.. and maybe the only exception, LOL

liulin04
Oh darn, I haven't seen those anime's.. I've only watch Gigantor in 70's and Voltes V in the 80s. LOL







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Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°


Posted By: liulin04
Date Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:56pm
Here you go sir, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaimx6_EdEo

search "anime Robotech" on youtube, you should be pretty thrilled with watching these mechs battling each other out.  Another insanely popular anime is Gundam, which I'm sure you have heard of it. 


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My Youtube Channel: PingPong Rally On

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35056&PN=13&title=feedback-liulin04" rel="nofollow - My Feedbacks


Posted By: regiz.rugenz
Date Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:58pm
Thanks for the link.. Wink







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Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°


Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 04/02/2014 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by regiz.rugenz regiz.rugenz wrote:

So, what do you know about these stuffs?
A lot, my company makes motion controllers that are used in custom robots, among other things, like moving pipes at an oil well.  Our controller can control 6 DOF stewart platforms for flight and race car simulators and movie props and it has even been used for handling spent nuclear fuel. Our customers make the mechanics and we supply the controller.





 



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Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br />


Posted By: regiz.rugenz
Date Posted: 04/02/2014 at 6:28pm

Ah that's cool.. 

But that's different.. that's for controlling motors that moves large objects and are not designed for speed like a PLC system or RTC. Here's however, one of my fave robots that I've worked for similar to Kuka, called Staubli.


Let's us all Watch!



A Robot called Staubli... same as Kuka




Here's why Robots at a high speed need to be bolted down onto a fixture.




Here's a very reason why robots will never win against the elites.
watch as Japan's Azimo helplessly falling from stairs.




And here's a perfect robot that surely Works for our great Sports of Table Tennis.
 





You're all welcome! Wink





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Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°


Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 04/02/2014 at 7:53pm
I always think it is the Japanese who will come up with a super robot which can program to play with data of Ma Long, ZJK, XX.... so players outside China can one day find a way to beat China. Too much anime I guess.

Somehow reminds me of the movie Rocky IV. The Russian trained with all the high tech gears and Rocky got nothing but nature on his side. Interesting concept that human vs machine and win.   

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Posted By: regiz.rugenz
Date Posted: 04/02/2014 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by TurboZ TurboZ wrote:

I always think it is the Japanese who will come up with a super robot which can program to play with data of Ma Long, ZJK, XX.... so players outside China can one day find a way to beat China. Too much anime I guess.

Somehow reminds me of the movie Rocky IV. The Russian trained with all the high tech gears and Rocky got nothing but nature on his side. Interesting concept that human vs machine and win.   
+1




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Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°


Posted By: regiz.rugenz
Date Posted: 05/12/2014 at 7:18am

I also honestly believe this is better than Kuka.. it's a cartesian type of  robot where it travels on a rail and using the XYZ coordinate system.


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Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°


Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 05/12/2014 at 1:47pm
The XY robot should have GD Talon 0X on its blade because it plays push blocker style.  I doubt that robot would do well if the human hit the ball high so it bounced high. The robot can't attack high balls and any high balls it returned can be hit hard for winners.

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Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br />


Posted By: regiz.rugenz
Date Posted: 05/12/2014 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

The XY robot should have GD Talon 0X on its blade because it plays push blocker style.  I doubt that robot would do well if the human hit the ball high so it bounced high. The robot can't attack high balls and any high balls it returned can be hit hard for winners.

Honestly, there is no robot that would play like human, more so like of the elites. At least not yet on our present time. Kuka for now is even the worst.

The best robots are still those training robots that just throw several balls with different spins like the video I posted above which features Kasumi trying to lift a spin against robot's heavy under spin.


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Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
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