DHS 40+ Ball Pix and Review
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Topic: DHS 40+ Ball Pix and Review
Posted By: zeio
Subject: DHS 40+ Ball Pix and Review
Date Posted: 06/18/2014 at 2:54pm
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Someone on the datangtt forum http://www.datangtt.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=72&id=35706" rel="nofollow - posted some pictures and measurements of the seamed cellulose diacetate ball by DHS and a comparison with the Nittaku and DHS 40mm celluloid ball. He said he got the new ball on taobao, RMB$48 for 6, roughly US$7.7. For the free-fall test of new and old balls, there is a 1cm difference on the first bounce, and the celluoid ball bounces a total of 4-5 times more than the cellulose diacetate ball. He postulates that playing styles that rely on borrowing pace and spin are doomed. He played with those 6 balls for 3 hours in the night, including 3 matches. He concluded it wasn't as bad as he thought and he has the following thoughts. 1. Not as pleasing to the ears as celluloid ball but it does not sound as gross. Broken sound is still there, but acceptable. 2. Boll ALC turns from a powerful blade into a blade with great control. Solely speaking of the blade strength, fore-/backhand close to table cannot finish opponent off, and worse for away from the table. 3. Longer rally. Easier to put in first attack. Higher accuracy, either short game or open game. To gain point, you either have to commit for a winner or force a breach through placement. 4. Reduction in spin, speed and power, esepecially the last two. Spin is actually decent! 5. Dip on fast loop not as much. The ratio of vertical kick is greater. 6. All-wood blades may as well be used as firewood. Hard 7-ply perhaps. Amateurs whose force and body strength are so-so may be better off with composite blades. 7. A great many of those who lack solid basics and rely on touch, short game and power of the dark side can forget it.        ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Replies:
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 06/18/2014 at 7:32pm
Thanks zeio! ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 06/18/2014 at 7:36pm
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Longer rallies, slower game, easier for beginners, less unforced errors. I am very hopeful for the future of this sport. But what about durability? I read the poly nittaku lasts for years and the poly dhs breaks every minute.
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Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 06/18/2014 at 10:28pm
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So it is bad news for Stiga all wood players like Xu Xin? ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: seguso
Date Posted: 06/19/2014 at 3:43am
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So you are saying that the plastic ball bounces less than the celluloid ball? (when dropped vertically I mean) ------------- pg5x - mxd fh & bh - https://youtu.be/dBMqj0CN7XU" rel="nofollow - 2015 video |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 06/19/2014 at 3:06pm
Sounds weird, right? Assuming the person wasn't mistaken, the cellulose diacetate ball actually has a lower COR. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
seguso wrote:Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 06/19/2014 at 3:15pm
Xu Xin will be fine, if the spin of the cellulose diacetate ball is comparable to that of the celluloid ball, as he has always been a spin-oriented player. Remember just after the glue-ban Wang Liqin and Ma Lin contracted the EJ-Virus and tried out a number of composite blades before going back to all-wood blades? ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 06/19/2014 at 3:19pm
There is no mention of a single ball breaking during his 3 hours of play. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 06/19/2014 at 3:48pm
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The first time I hit this new seamed version of the poly ball, I felt a small jolt of pain in my dicky playing wrist. The spin/speed is less but the most significant thing to me was the difference the extra weight made. Playing with this ball takes more effort in strokeplay and made me tire quicker. My initial assessment is that the ball's characteristics will make higher ranked players harder to beat. Cadets and juniors probably won't fly up the adult rankings as fast as they do now as they won't have the strength at 10-12 to spin/hit the ball as spinny/fast as they do now. Serves? I did not play long enough, but I suspect that techniques will change to favour placement/pace over spin. The ball is slower, so players may go back to serving very deep and let the rally open up rather than going for the 3rd ball kill. But we'll see. Is it as fun to play with? I made the mistake of comparing the poly ball with a 40mm and a new old stock 38mm. They all are fun but the 38mm was real joy. Note, for UK players, Table Tennis England will make public by end of June14 their policy re adoption of the poly ball. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 06/19/2014 at 3:57pm
I forgot about a bounce test. I must try it this weekend. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 06/19/2014 at 4:41pm
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DHS BALLS have just emerged on Taobao, fairly affordable pricing. http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=39077740479" rel="nofollow - http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=39077740479 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8093901345" rel="nofollow - http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8093901345 Boys, In the case somebody has came in possession of this product, take care to instantly post here your own findings&impression of the DHS product in most scrupulous manner and with less possible delay. Please. |
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 06/19/2014 at 9:49pm
I just hope they're genuine, or there's little point in a review.  ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 06/19/2014 at 10:37pm
Maybe it creates more recreation level players but I wonder what this slower game will do to TT as a high level sport. Most people do not view TT as a high level sport rather see it as a fun recreation activity. By increasing ball size it slows ball speeds and spin which is the physical reality of air resistance and new rubbers nor paddles will change that physical reality. It might be a fun game for many players and it might also be easier to learn to play but I can't help but think that long term the ball has to get smaller in order for a higher level of play to occur, maybe the future recreation level players will use the 40+ and a new standard smaller ball will be created for the higher international level TT players.
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Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 06/20/2014 at 12:13am
from the advertisment: "New table tennis as "seam" ball, the material is not flammable, easy storage. Compared with traditional celluloid table tennis, table tennis 40 + diameter from 39.50-40.50MM adjustment "40.00-40.60MM", slightly larger than the traditional table tennis"
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Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 06/20/2014 at 3:23am
First link is still pre-order and second link is already "off the shelf" after one sale, strange. I remember seeing the release date is mid July. Hope they can get it right. The bigger size is quite obvious even without the old ball side by side. Just play with a cheap XSF 1 star seamless ball (6 for $2 from ttnpp) the first time few days ago. It is solidly built and easy to play with because it just keep landing on the table shots after shots of hard hit and loop. It dips quicker so I miss the first few hits. But will get used to the curve in no time. I found it bounce a bit higher and longer than old ball with the drop test. The bigger size is obvious even without an old ball side by side. ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 06/20/2014 at 11:29pm
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There are a few boxes in stock at tt11 ------------- Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 06/21/2014 at 8:17am
Ordered. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: TonyL
Date Posted: 06/21/2014 at 7:36pm
Ordered some too. Can't wait!
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Posted By: TSuBaSa
Date Posted: 06/21/2014 at 7:43pm
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Me too, they allow you to order only 3 packs max (which is ok) ------------- Nittaku Tenaly Acoustic Inner Carbon Joola Rhyzer Pro 50 & 45 |
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 06/21/2014 at 8:17pm
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In the description it says "Available in the middle of July 2014"? ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 06/21/2014 at 9:06pm
It said that before some came in stock though. I'll update when I get a shipping notification ------------- Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 06/21/2014 at 10:00pm
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PATIENCE IS A GREAT VIRTUE. Suggested Retail Price as now recommended by the manufacturer for DHS 40+, super selection balls. -- 5 yuan per one (China inland market) -- 8 yuan per one (Forein market) TT11.com Eesti shopster now charges 12¥ for a piece, which looks somewhat an overprice, without any good justification. According to my investigations, the balls are due on eacheng in mid July. 7¥ a piece. Having enough of patience is a great money saver. 
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Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 06/21/2014 at 11:39pm
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Igor, You're my favorite googlebot ------------- Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max |
Posted By: tt4me
Date Posted: 06/23/2014 at 12:44pm
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Yesterday I got a chance to examine 3 brands of plastic balls. The Xushaofa was the most interesting because of the lack of seam. The plastic does not dimple as much as the celluloid balls. This means the coefficient of restitution should be more consistent over a wider range of impact speeds. The fact the ball will not dimple as easily could mean the ball will not have as much surface contact or friction with the table on impact and change direction or speeds as much as the older celluloid balls. I haven't been able to test these theories out. The surface of the new plastic ball looked to be more porous or rough than the celluloid ball. I am still trying to figure out how a seamless ball can be made and still have the walls of the ball be of a consistent thickness. I am familiar with all sort of industrial processes like blow molding and injection molding but plastic balls must use some other trick. ------------- Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802 1.5mm, the Ball Whacker is revived!<br />Samsonov Alpha+H3 Neo+802-40 1.8mm my back up<br />BCX5+H3+802-1 1.8mm New but promising.<br /> |
Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 06/25/2014 at 3:09am
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Finally got a chance to try a Palio 3 Star that had been around for some time. Both XuShaoFa and Palio are seamless but XSF does not have the crack sound. ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: j-bo
Date Posted: 06/25/2014 at 9:45am
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Got to play with the DHS ball. Less speed and spin and very noticeable at my low level (1300's) of play. The 1800-2000 level guys didn't care for it either as serves were less spiny and loops were less loopy. All commented on the weight when hitting. Watching others play, I could see the lack of speed and spin as they played. One player, who has a very good side spin loop..was struggling with it. Is it playable? Sure. Will it change the way the game is played? Sure. Will people be looking for new equipment? Absolutely. Will this make more people want to play at higher level? Doubtful. Will this make manuf. more money?  Does this make the game better in some way? Time will tell. Will probably produce longer rallies and for some, that's really a fun part of the game. Will this mean more players? I very much doubt that. The ball was never the reason for lack of participation IMO. So far, our club will stick with celluloid. How long is anyone's guess. |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 06/25/2014 at 10:10am
Clubs that focus on using the celluloid ball may have a rush of new members in the coming year. Those that focus on training youth will have to adopt whatever the national association decides will be the tournament ball but survival may force these clubs into some hard choices as membership could decline as interest in TT as a high level sport declines with larger ball.
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Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 06/25/2014 at 11:11am
This sounds like the return of short pips to me. Short pips doesn't rely on spin as much. As for speed, there's the law of diminishing return. Inverted will see the speed reduction more so than pips as I feel inverted is considerably faster overall.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 06/25/2014 at 4:42pm
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I just got a shipping notice for the balls I ordered from TT11. Also ordered Joola balls but those will ship in July after I am probably in Nigeria on vacation.
What people sometimes forget is that spin/speed reduction tends to favor more powerful loopers, not more powerful hitters. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 06/25/2014 at 4:57pm
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I have always favored heavier, really like heavier. I have high hopes for the heavier new ball, although I would prefer heavier 39.5 mm balls, instead of those a full mm bigger. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: seguso
Date Posted: 06/27/2014 at 3:15am
OTOH the new ball bounces lower. And short pips need to take the ball at the highest. Lower bounce favours loopers and choppers. ------------- pg5x - mxd fh & bh - https://youtu.be/dBMqj0CN7XU" rel="nofollow - 2015 video |
Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 06/27/2014 at 4:00pm
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Btw I got a shipping notice two days ago ------------- Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 06/27/2014 at 4:49pm
Guess it depends on what ball you use. I've seen reviews saying the ball bounces higher or is bouncier. Then you have an interesting observation from the tabletennisdailey guys who reviewed the Stiga ball in a video the other day. In the beginning their celluloid ball bounced higher. Then during play, I believe they said because of the hardness (can't fully remember), they said the poly ball bounced higher. Guess we'll find out soon enough.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 06/30/2014 at 5:31am
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My DHS 40+ have arrived from TT11 this morning. It's always great to get stuff on a Monday - it's training tonight. I'll have a few hours with them and report back. I still have my Palio seamless prototypes here, so I'll compare with those. It's not a hugely useful comparison going forward, but at least it gives some hint as to how things have progressed in the past 12 months or so. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: TSuBaSa
Date Posted: 06/30/2014 at 7:01am
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I got them on my desk. They seem pretty similar to regular 40mm balls. They are not that hard. Not that big. I don't think they are heavier. Texture looks a bit different but that's it... ------------- Nittaku Tenaly Acoustic Inner Carbon Joola Rhyzer Pro 50 & 45 |
Posted By: TSuBaSa
Date Posted: 06/30/2014 at 1:10pm
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Not heavier, not harder. Sounds different. The most important thing is there is less spin. Easier to recieve a serv. Not that easy to keep it low though. There is less spin so ball just pops out. Not easy to kill. There is less spin so there is more time to recover. And it is easier to guess the spin. Rallies keeps going... But not that exiting. You need spinnier and dwelly rubber with dwelly and faster blade. ------------- Nittaku Tenaly Acoustic Inner Carbon Joola Rhyzer Pro 50 & 45 |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 06/30/2014 at 1:54pm
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XuShaFa balls will make very well for the blocking style. Yes ..Yes ..Yes. I am a kin blocker, and I am A King Invincible while using XSF balls.. CRISS CROSS is the best power play, and the plastic is the play enhancer. All the brainy boys shall use cc and plastic, take my friendly advice. GOOD LUCK. |
Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 5:55am
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I spoke with a friend who has tried the plastic ball of one of the major European manufacturers and he says it is terrible. Looking forward to Andy's insights. |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 6:28am
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I had an hour with the DHS ball last night... The first thing we all noticed was that it isn't as bouncy as the Palio seamless prototype. The Palio's bounciness was a big part of its character, but the DHS ball feels really quite different. In a drop test, the 40+ bounces less than the celluloid and the Palio. The second thing - the big thing - is the spin. You can hit a good shot with it, load the ball up, but by the time the ball lands on the other side of the table and bounces a lot of the spin has gone. Two loopers tried it out, and the rallies went on for ages. The spin brings the ball down as expected, so you can still play a loop-loop game, but it's so easy to re-loop (or block - blocking is ridiculously easy) that it's hard to force an error. So you get the spin effect in the air, the effect at the opponent's bat is reduced. Service was better than the Palio because it's easier to keep the ball lower and shorter, but the lack of spin means fewer easy points off serve for sure. The ball sound is better than the Palio. It sounds a bit more "hollow" than celluloid, but it doesn't have that high-pitched cat's bell tinkle noise of the Palio, which is a step in the right direction. The ball feel on the bat is...well, nasty. Even though they're the same weight on my scales, the 40+ feels less substantial when you hit it. A few of the players swore to me that the 40+ was lighter. I think it's just how the ball feels on contact. Flimsy in some way. I was using 5Q Sound on my BH at one point, and I found it very tricky. I had quite a few shots just drop off the rubber. No problems on FH, but personally I'll have to do some technique work on the other wing. You have to be direct and forceful. Brushy shots without power just won't work well. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: TSuBaSa
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 6:56am
+1 ------------- Nittaku Tenaly Acoustic Inner Carbon Joola Rhyzer Pro 50 & 45 |
Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 7:42am
So they will have to cut the current 11 point sets down to 5 to be able to keep down match duration for coverage purposes  This can be regarded as the evisceration of table tennis as it was known until now. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 8:09am
Can't believe I am actually rooting for equipment manufacturers to create game changing rubbers... this is sad. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 8:31am
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It's not THAT bad. We all commented that we could get used to the smaller issues. The lack of spin will affect some styles more than others. Long pip players who rely mainly on reversal are stuffed. There is one player I know who's entire game is lobbing with extreme topspin. He's toast. OTOH, one player at our club is an off-the-bounce flat hitter. He plays for extreme angles. He loves it. He can attack anything above net height, so it's hard not to play into his hands now. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 8:53am
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It gets me wondering whether it is possible to produce a rubber that can impart more spin. Have you tried it with the Tinarc 5? Mine is coming in about a week from now but I still have to get my hands on a plastic ball to try it out. |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 9:04am
I do not like Tinarc 5. It doesn't work for me. Topsheet is not grippy enough for my needs. I have no doubt that the equipment arms race is already underway. The Omega V line has abnormally high topsheet grip, for example. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: tt-panopticum
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 9:06am
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The End is near......... seriously, IMHO that's not the case and I'd recomend everybody should try and give it a chance first. Looking at some completely contoversial views of certain equipement qualities should give us some idea about how "accurate" personal observations can be. Interestingly most high level players I know and who'd tried already the one or the other type of P-Ball were much more relaxed. I've now tried the old (red stamp) non approved XuShaoFa Balls, the approved ones with black stamp and last the DHS with seam. The XuShaoFa already made a little step from the last two versions - the DHS Ball is the next, bigger step. The DHS is slightly smaller, compared to the XSF - but only by 0.05-0.1 mm making it 40.20-40.25 those I had the time to check were slightly less precise in roundness (compared to XSF). DHS seems a bit softer than XSF but still harder than average Celluloid. To me it still feels harder(which during play feels a bit like beeing heavier) compared to C - sound isn't that bad as well (slightly higher pitch). I believe the "no spin" verdict from many peope isn't correct technically - I'd say it's reactions are surely different. While XSF is noticably easier to block, flip, loop on backspin etc.....it's a bit different with the DHS. Blocking still requires some feel for spin (but seems a bit easier compared to C) counter topsspin seems to be more tricky - somehow throwangle seems to be considerably higher, especially with stronger shots. I can only guess this is due to different way the ball dimples/deforms during contact. My guess is, this will be one of the real challenges for higher level players..... The end is near ? No, I don't think so..... |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 10:51am
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"A bad workman quarrels with his tools", --you know. And good player will get used to any balls just within a hour. Of all the current plastics now available on market, DHS ball is the best sturdy one, it has increased mass to 2.85g, and larger diameter to 40.3 mm. DHS tangibility is great due to the bigger impact impulse. China's starred players all have favoured this ball. ------------- I only trust numbers, Human's senses fairly deceptive. "Seeing is believing", - you know. |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 11:47am
The idea that TT will have numerous balls that all have slightly different playing character seems unreal one cannot imagine professional baseball with each team using a different size ball when they pitched or play at home. This issue of ball uniformity may also impact club financial health as coaching flat ball hitters for tournament play may not require the same level of coaching as today and trying to make any ball the club standard will have many pitfalls as tournament players will want certain P balls and other players will want to use C balls for club events all these issues will impact the number of paying members and some clubs may even become C ball only putting further pressure on clubs that focus on training with the new balls.
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Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 12:33pm
+1 I have experienced the same high throw (more obvious on BH) with the XuShaoFa ball... I am also interested in players opinions on why this happens with the new ball... ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 12:39pm
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The XuShaofa ball, because it is seamless, is going to be nothing more than an interesting side conversation - nothing leads me to believe it will be widely adopted - it got most of its recognition by being first to market. The balls that should be taken seriously given the strength of the equipment manufacturers and the tournaments they may have access to being the official ball for (this is a bit US biased): Level 1: DHS/DoubleFish, Nittaku, Butterfly, Joola. Level 2: Stiga, Donic, Xiom and all the other good guys. Level 3: XuShaofa Poly Ball Level 4: Non-ITTF approved balls. If XuShaofa has a seamed ball, or the seamless ball gets more play, this might change.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 5:25pm
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Japanese magazine Table Tennis Kingdom reports today that Butterfly's 40+ seamed ball has just been approved, making it the third Japanese brand after Nittaku and TSP which were approved earlier this year in March and May, respectively. OTOH, Hanno's seamless poly ball is the third brand after Xu Shaofa(1/14) and Palio(2/14) to be approved. Last but not least, Kinson has their own version of 40+ ball, whether it's seamed or seamless is yet to be revealed. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: tt-panopticum
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 5:57pm
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We should keep in mind: DHS and DF seamless most likely is the producer of: Andro Donic Tibhar Butterfly TSP Nittaku SHA Stiga Cornilleau Giant Dragon Joola Sunflex XSF, Palio and Hanno most likely are also made in the same mill..... So, Nittaku Premium and DHS could be the only two currently making a P-Ball with seam, Butterfly and TSP definetely are "made in China", i.e. DHS/DF Interestingly most recent version of ITTF Technical Leaflet changes are, besides some larger technical tolerances, adding the requirement of "made in ......." signing on the ball. Butterfly and TSP are added after this TL change and accordingly already are marked that way - the other branded DHS balls are approved before the TL change and are only marked with country of company without the "made in" . |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 6:56pm
Big sweeping statements... You don't know who will be the market leader with the poly ball... One major competition with too many broken balls could see the crumbling of a leading brand... XuShaofa Sponsorship of a few comps. .... A few banners on TV... Who knows...? There's always space for good quality 3 Star balls at a good price for amateur players...  ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 7:05pm
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BEWARE OF FAKE PRODUCT. Boys, you all seem to forget about fake products. Our fellow forumer AndySmit seems to be the unlucky person as having now got a pseudo DHS. To all evidence, he just hit into a fake product. He is now reporting a feel of lighweight in testing the ball sample, and the lightweight indicates a fake. Genuine DHS is known to be an overweight ball, 2.85g. PRECAUTION FIRST !!!! Beware of the bold fakers, they are now looking around to swindle money out of a simpleton.  For some economical reason, major manufacturers are now unwilling to supply plastic on market with open hand till January 2016. From now until 2016, a great supply of fake plastic balls is expected onto market under well famous brandnames. Superb opportunity for fakers. Fool hunting season is open !!!! LOOK OUT, MAN. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 7:08pm
They aren't sweeping statements - they are pretty reasonable based on how the TT landscape is shaped. After all, if you had control of the situation, would you be moving to the polyball? And the best ball isn't the ball used - it is the ball from the tournament sponsor. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 7:16pm
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Nexy has released a 40+ 3-star plastic ball. I placed an early-bird order. Review coming soon . . . ------------- For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected] |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 7:23pm
Dunlop 3 Crown Barna balls were once one of the best balls in the land... ... And tea was once consumed more than coffee... ... Things change...  ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 7:31pm
Different baseball fields have different sizes and shapes. Some fields are so-called "pithers' fields" and some are "hitters' fields." Tennis has three different playing surfaces - none of which are truly identical even withing their three sub-groups. Men's tennis has at least two different ball sizes and weights. 3 star 40 mm celluloid table tennis balls already have significant variations between different brands. We even have two different colors. Most top level tournaments played by pros will use whatever ball the ITTF selects as its ball for ITTF sanctioned tournaments. The variations between various 40+ TT balls isn't really much of an issue. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 7:37pm
I disagree with the recognition bit. It got most of its recognition because this was the design we were "promised" when the non-celluloid ball "program" was first announced and promoted by Adham Sharara. This was what the new ball was "supposed" to be. But they had problems keeping the wall thickness consistent. Then there were disputes between the companies. So DHS and others "punted" and developed non-celluloid seamed balls as a solution - possibly also as a solution to the problem of certain patents which were covered by patents. A seamed ball should allow more flexibility in the choice of plastics that are used. I agree that the seamless ball has been marginalized. That's a shame, because the seamless concept has the theoretical potential to finally deliver balls with a "true" flight and bounce. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 7:59pm
I think the fact that DHS has the ITTF contract and was "in bed" with the ITTF from the beginning on the switch to non-celluloid really increases the likelihood that the DHS ball will be a market leader for a while. They'd have to produce junk ball for that not to be the case. And that, while possible, seems unlikely. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 8:01pm
Yes I would actually, to make the world a safer place... It has to go... It's very dangerous stuff...  ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 8:07pm
Yeah, DHS may sanction a lot of competitions but we will buy what has consistent quality and good value... ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 9:40pm
No, it is not very dangerous stuff. The safety history of the celluloid ball (including its manufacture) over the past 100 years (and especially the last 50 years) is actually quite good. The cars we use to drive to and from table tennis halls, club and tournaments are tremendously more dangerous. Government labor laws in China are far more dangerous. You want a safer ball? Mandate that it be manufactured in Europe, Japan or the USA. Considering the fact that we don't really know much about the materials and methods that are used and that will be used to make the new poly balls, it is very difficult to say that there has been even a small marginal improvement in safety with this switch. You could argue, that for vendors and suppliers the new poly ball will a bit more convenient. But I think that's about as far as it goes. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/01/2014 at 9:43pm
My observation in the U.S. is that the ball used in sanctioned tournaments has a huge influence on what players purchase and play with. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 2:17am
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Does anyone know or have a good indication of the number of ball producing companies/factories? From what I gather from forum browsing, there are 4 or 5 majors. Xushafu DHS Double Fish Butterfly and maybe Nittaku Are the others are too small to affect anything except the fakes? ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: tt-panopticum
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 3:08am
As for now, it looks like DHS/DF joint affair is producing the seamed ball for the majority of companies (also for Butterfly or TSP, it's clearly stamped "made in China") The other seamed ball is made by Nittaku - while Nittaku is also offering a chinese made seamed ball called Nittaku SHA 40+ The seamless balls are Palio and XSF - obviously also sold to some other brands....
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Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 3:23am
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That looks like 4 manufacturers, 2 seamed and 2 seamless. Interesting. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 5:12am
YES IT IS VERY VERY DANGEROUS! I'm not going to say anymore, but this... The terrible T's can use the old balls as an accelerant to make big bangs... Its lighter and more combustable than sugar... Table tennis opinions have nothing to do with it... This ball has got to go.... Think about it... The WORLD will be a safer place... ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 8:42am
DHS/DF who manufacture for the rest - seamed. Nittaku 40 SHA+ - I suspect this is a DHS ball, but I may be wrong - seamed. Nittaku Premium - seamed. XuShaofa/Palio - seamless (have no reason to believe they have independent manufacturers at the current time). So to me, it really looks more like 2 (maybe 3) seamed and 1 seamless. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 9:08am
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Thanks for the info. I wonder if we can speculate that Butterfly is holding back as they know something that the rest don't? Maybe it's a marketing ploy or a technical one as they are just not ready and want to see what's out there. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 9:39am
Based on the country where Butterfly's ball is manufactured (I believe it has just been approved), we will have an answer. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 9:47am
I understand your disagreement and I think that disagreement likely applies to people who know all the nuances of these things like you. For most of us, what we wanted was an approved plastic ball and XuShaofa had the first approved plastic ball. If DHS had a seamed approved plastic ball, most people would not have known the difference or that it wasn't what the ITTF promised originally. If fact, people still use the term poly ball to apply to all plastic balls, just not the original seamless design that the ITTF promised. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: tt-panopticum
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 9:51am
As I already wrote before - Butterfly is "Made in China", i.e. DHS - as long as I know (well, that's only a few years) Butterfly seemed never very interested in investing more than necessary in quality balls (ok, that's my personal perception opnly) TSP and Nittaku have been the ones to go looking for the "best". |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 10:07am
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.... ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: TSuBaSa
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 10:44am
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Talked to a tsp distributor he sad that tsp didn't even started producing cell free balls yet. ------------- Nittaku Tenaly Acoustic Inner Carbon Joola Rhyzer Pro 50 & 45 |
Posted By: tt-panopticum
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 10:54am
Well, they probably don't have to "produce", they just sell them.... At least they must have sent in some for approval to ITTF as they're already on the list: With seam and "Made in China" = DHS  |
Posted By: TSuBaSa
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 1:48pm
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He says they want to produce a cell free ball with premium quality in Japan. But "they had to wait for nittaku" maybe they are using the same facility ------------- Nittaku Tenaly Acoustic Inner Carbon Joola Rhyzer Pro 50 & 45 |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 2:43pm
I have thought about it and I've actually looked into it. It is very hard to find anyone harmed by TT balls or the manufacture of TT balls. Considering that millions of them have been made for decades, you would think that if they were unsafe that there would be all kinds of reports of harm. But such reports are hard to find. On the scale of hazardous items that we live with, TT balls are way, way, way down on the list - somewhere below water buckets. There are many things more flammable than sugar (odd choice of comparison there) and we keep them safely in our homes all the time - rubbing alcohol, butane, propane, natural gas, lighter fluid, rubber cement, wood (we build homes and make table tennis rackets with wood), matches, kerosene, gasoline, gunpowder, candle wax, and probably much more. As I said, given what we do know about celluloid balls and their track record and what we don't know about the new balls, there's no good way of knowing if there will be an even miniscule improvement in safety from the new balls. I think any difference will be far to small to measure with any accuracy. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 2:45pm
I have had a look at one of the TaoBao links. A few things don't add up, here is one of them. The inconsistent labelling where one ball shows "40+ ITTF APPROVED" and the other shows "40+ITTF APPROVED". Where has the space character gone to? (see below image) Anyone else have any thoughts? Please note, I am not here to say the seller is a cheat. I just want to point out a few flaws with the image used on their site. 
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Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 2:49pm
DHS and DFish produce their celluloid balls in their own factories, separate from each other. It follows that they will continue to do so for the cellulose diacetate ball. Nittaku's celluloid balls are produced in Koga, Ibaraki Prefecture. The material for their new seamed ball is currently unknown. I can only assume it's the same material as in DHS/DFish case. According to Table Tennis Kingdom report, TSP's new seamed ball is made of the same material. It comes as an unexpected surprise they opt to source from China. Butterfly new seamed ball is made in China. At this moment the only sources are either DHS or DFish. Palio have their own factory/-ies somewhere in China. It's likely they've bought the polyball assembly lines along with the patent. Xushaofa do not have any factory to the best of my knowledge. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 3:10pm
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I wouldn't be surprised to find that there is some kind of dual pass method when two different ink colors are used and that there can be registration variations because of this. In other words, the balls are probably "stamped" twice and there can be some shift in registration between the two "stamps." Not that the red "Made in China" portion is shifted in the same direction as the "+" sign. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 3:36pm
I see your point :) However, it is still much deviation I reckon. So let's look beyond the ball. Let's look at the packaging. I have compared the image of the packaging shown on the TaoBao website versus the image on the DHS website. They are not the same. The 3rd star should touch the edge of the top flap. But this is not the case with the image on TaoBao - which shows the 3rd star significantly away from the edge of the top flap. Sounds fishy to me. Again, there are other inconsistencies; but I will not mention them. The box on the right is from the DHS website. 
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Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 5:00pm
You are assuming a degree of precision in the printing, cutting and folding processes used to make those boxes that I don't think is realistic. Professional printing expects and allows for these kind of variatons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleed_%28printing%29" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleed_%28printing%29 ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 5:25pm
Ok, valid point. So, let's continue looking at the bigger picture. Here's another difference with the packaging. The packaging on the TaoBao website shows "40+ ITTF APPROVED" whereas on the DHS website shows "40+ I.T.T.F. APPROVED". But just to repeat, in no ways am I saying that the seller on TaoBao is a cheat. I just want to highlight my observation. What I think probably has happened is DHS has changed the packaging and what is on their website is an old photo. Anyway, I have ordered some DHS plastic balls from an online retailer so I will find out a bit more about it once my parcel arrives. (See the bits highlighted in the yellow box). 
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Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 8:24pm
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TAKE IT, WEIGH IT... LIVE SECURE LIFE.. Just subjected a most convincing request into DHS factory's technical department asking for THE actual mass of the dhs elite-quality plastic balls, special selection. Every conscious man should be in possession of fine pocket jewlry scale, I truly delighed to be a happy owner of this nice electronic device. Truth is in numbers, you know. So now., once we know a true weight of DHS balls as coming directly out of factory source, we could surely tell if the products with DHS logo to come to our hand from a casual shop is a fake or original ball, by trying the ball in most accurate manner on digital balance to 0.01 g. NOTE: All balls *** (ITTF logo) from a pack must be of one same mass with possible divergence of weight no more than 0.03 g.Weight evaluation is the best practical test to verify authentity of the balls. I like doing this... LO... LO.. LO.. LO.. You, dirty Faker, go and eat your ear, never can you cheat a smart engineer. Just don't mind it.
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Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 8:29pm
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Perhaps we can ask AndySmith to take some real pictures of the package of the one(s) he got from tt11? The stamp of the DHS cellulose diacetate ball from ITTF corresponds with that on the one the dude got from taobao. http://www.ittf.com/ittf_equipment/Balls_details.asp?ID=7254&Colour=&Company=&ID=&Stamp_colour=&" rel="nofollow">  The stamp from the one on tt11 looks like this, which doesn't look right: http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/tt-ball-dhs-3-40-new-tt1740678" rel="nofollow">  The ads on tt11 even has "CTTA APPROVED" instead: http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/balls/plastic-balls?onec_manufacturer=21604" rel="nofollow">  Verdict: Pre-production vs market release. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 9:02pm
The change in ITTF is the first thing you've brought up that I think may be worth being concerned about. But even then, this is a new product and I can easily imagine how subtle changes can be made as the product and its availability evolve. I produce video and graphics for a living and can tell you first hand that little details like this get changed for reasons that most people would consider to be inconsequential. Also, if I was going to counterfeit a package, I'd probably manage to get the periods right if I did pretty well on the rest of the package. I think counterfeits are more likely to be revealed by things like quality of printing and materials than a discrepancy on the periods. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 9:43pm
I think you have nailed it. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 9:45pm
True. I think zeio has nailed it. Pre-production vs market release. |
Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 11:41pm
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Got mine from tt11 today ------------- Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 07/02/2014 at 11:59pm
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Nice. Post some pics and write a review, if you will. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/03/2014 at 12:02am
Awesome. Please post some photos :) |
Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 07/03/2014 at 2:16am
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Nice! When the ball changed from 38mm to 40mm, my rating increased 300+ points. I am hopeful for at least a little bit of increase with this new 40+ (WTF is this anyway? The ball can be 47mm and the marking will still be technically correct.) I got my OFF and OFF+ blades with short pips on one side ready to go. I might use Tenergy 80 on the other side. I put the short pips FH or BH depending on how I feel during the day. Table tennis is a sport. I do 50-80 push-ups, 150 crunches, and a few basketball suicides before playing. I hate losing to players that are out of shape chain smokers with pastrami hanging out of their mouths. Although TT is also a game of great skill, I do feel that the skill part currently favors the equation. The move from 38 to 40 gave the athletic player a little more advantage. I hope this new ball tips the balance a bit more. In boxing, a better-skilled fighter can lose to the underdog that has better fitness. Lebron or Kobe can be stopped if they don't have the cardio and guarded by a well-prepared athlete. Federer, Novak, Rafa, well we know they have to maintain their fitness for those marathon matches even against opposition with lesser skills. My only hope is that if in fact the service becomes less potent, the service rules also become more relaxed. They should not be subjective the way they are now.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 07/03/2014 at 7:28am
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Mine have "ITTF" rather than "I.T.T.F.". On the balls and on the box. There is some variation between the prints too. Some balls have a bigger gap between 40+ and ITTF. Nothing awful, and probably just printing variation. Piiiiiics!   ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/03/2014 at 8:52am
Awesome and thanks! |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 07/03/2014 at 11:57am
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Thank you so much, AndySmith. Appreciate it! ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 07/03/2014 at 1:17pm
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quote from tt11, "THESE BALL IS PRODUCED FROM NEW PLASTIC MATERIAL WHICH IS NOT AS DURABLE AS CELLULOID. WE TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY REGARDING THE DURABILITY OF THE BALL" This worries me a bit. ZJK and FZD broke 2 balls in a match. http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65985&title=ml-zjk-xx-and-fzd-on-the-new-ball |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/03/2014 at 1:51pm
Be careful what you wish for! The availability in volume of these balls for tournaments/open club play or club RR along with practice balls for robots may be awhile in coming considering the lack of suppliers and the world wide demand. Each countries head association will choose a ball, probably the same as ITTF will be using in the internationals further adding to the backlog.
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Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 07/03/2014 at 3:18pm
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MAGIC FORMULA. Material "crackiness" is the very reason that ITTF did recently sanctioned for manufacturers to make a heavier / harder balls with a thicker sphere and a better shock resistance. Back in 2000, I worked out a formula so as to evaluate approxima the optimum mass (M) on a bigger pingpang ball, providing for the ball shell being of same thickness, and this is to assure optimum ball durability and stable playing characteristics.. I'm so happy to hear now DHS does adopt my calculating methoda for making the elite plastic balls. I'm really happy. 
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Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/03/2014 at 4:10pm
Does this assume celluloid is used? :) |