any tip? I play cpen SP and i dont know a reliable way to beat a new dude  with (tibhar dtects on bh) in the club, i use to beat him 2 months  but i would like to know other tactic  to beat him.

However, I'm still a u1700 level combination player, so . . . 

Conventional pundit wisdom suggests to play with as little spin as possible and wait your chances for a loose ball. That can hold true to a degree, but not all LP players are weak vs a knuckle ball. Many are very good vs this ball as they see it a lot. Even with LP the player still has to read spin. If you give a higher ball to the FH it is getting crushed.

 

Those are just some things to consider. 

 

In my 4 years in Korea, I played a LOT, I mean a seriously LOT of Grass D-Techs OX LP BH combo players. Anywhere from 1/4 to 1/3 of all Korean Amature ladies O40 and above play with literally the same equipment - Schlager Carbon blade, a FH control rubber, and OX Grass D-Techs on BH.

 

They seemed to play very similar type games. Serve underspin, get back underspin, punch aggressively with LP to make a quick light topspin drive to win the point or get back a ball to crush on FH. Get back a dead ball, they bump it back medium speed deep  to crossover or BH, wait for easy ball and FH smash or try to fool you with the LP push to get an error or easy ball. They can FH psuh all day, they can BH bump all day, they know tactics, they know how to handle no-spin, they know how to block fast drives with OX or inverted, they know how to get errors.

 

Many OX LP players do these things well more or less.

 

What troubles an LP player could be several things you might not have thought about.

 

OX LP players hate spins they cannot read. So, you serve HEAVY underspin low & short, or heavy underspin deep & fast & low. They still have ot read the spin, get in position, or at least get the bat there and the blade angle right. They will make errors.

 

Once you establish your ability to serve heavy underspin, then your short no-spin low to FH and fast no spin to cross over make you money. they begin to mis-read it.

 

Another thing you can do on serve if you see OX player bumping every serve back with OX LP, then serve very fast, deep with TOPSIN. You know how much underspin you get back, it will come back long, and teeing off on a predictable long underspin ball is one of the easiest "thank-you" balls you can get in the sport.

 

If their FH doesn't scare you, push slow wide angle past corner to FH, they push, and you are off to the races on attack.

 

Another thing they do not like is a player with a good BH. The BH attack is difficult for them to see where you are going. OX LP players like to give underspin to BH wing thinking it is safe. Good for you.

 

OX LP players really hate deep HEAVY topspin. Very hard for them to control with OX LP. Even harder for them with inverted if it goes to FH deep or really shallow.

 

OX LP players seem to really love it when you go for full power. Usually, you are going to make an error reading the ball. Even if you don't often, they see where you are going and block these balls really well and make you want to triple crush the block, often off balance, out of position, and off time, usually a fail for you and a giggle for them.

 

Some OX LP players got really good at taking the ball early and reading the spin to make a quicker shot that robs you of time and is well placed to a weak zone or to a place that makes you want to attack without fully knowing the spin.

 

Such players are wise & wiley and if you get defeated by a player doing this with D-Techs, just shake their hand, shake your head, admit they are right now simply a better player and look for chances to keep playing vs this kind of player.

 

 

 

 

yes i think so, but he blocks very low balls and the fastserve+smash is not working, i can beat hi  sometimes but its matter of loading spin until i can attack  but most of the time it wont work

 

Many inverted players struggle vs this scenario and avoid it as much as they can. Many admit this is the singlemost thing along with general errors reading the balls from their OX LP that kills them.

 

I can understand this, but let's face it, you gotta fail some before you grow some and playing vs these OX LP players who can punch underspin aggressively is a good way to learn about them and play effectively vs them.

never said the player never improved so i think there is more than a way to beat that player, i think i need to play slower, feed him a slow loop to the fh and then a slow loop to the bh, btw he covers all the table with his bh

thnks BHMAN  really enlightned by your advice most of them i think i m missing playing at the right tempo, i will try out!

i m traditional one sided cpen SP player , i serve and start looping block and smash/fast loop i try to return everything mixing chopblock and some flicks i rely on variation .the dude plays the same way oliver but barely attacking but he push low balls, the last time i lost twice in the last month,  havent mentioned that i play with 2 pips, if i feel consistent i play with hexer pips if i m not that consistent i play with 802, i can switch between 2 pips in the same day if i need to,sometimes difrent blades  ITOH the dude was defeated when another player gave him high short balls like 12inch high but it was a 2 smooth shakehander with a mild FH but think he was more patient

i think low throw pips should make more trouble for pushblockers .like i said i never said i m better than him but i have a better record against him,its odd but i have a good record against LP players 

That's one possibility but like I said, you haven't said what the player does that troubles *you*.  I have played a lot of push blockers, so I know that they are very different animals.  I play them all differently based on how consistent they are against spin, pace or ball placement.

OK, now I see a little bit more.

 

If you pop it up deep to his BH corner and he doesn't attack this ball, that looks like a good chance to finish the point on the next ball to the FH corner or right back to BH corner.

 

Opponent likes to push and he is likely consistent and he can keep it low, prolly deep too. Prolly can change up the spin with his OX and keep it deep and low enough.

 

In that kind of rally, the OX player will win points being more consistent. You have to do something that will get that player off rhythm and time. You can try to wipe the spin yourself on one of your push returns and look for the next ball. You can try to loop it consistent and as deep as you safely dare. You can try to take the ball off the bounce and place it fast as you can keep it on table to uncomfortable spot to him, whatever that is you learned.

 

Since he doesn't attack much, you will not get points from him attacking the wrong ball, PLUS he is likely very consistent in using his LP to keep it on the table time again without giving away a sure fire chance. 

 

You have to use what you have to attack and win, or make the player fooled by your spin and placement changes somehow. SP can still make a pretty mean change of spin on serve and that is a good place to look, but your SP can also put the brakes on spin subtly.

 

Having a good understanding, confidence, and patience are important. Being able to change spin and location is good too. Ability to change pace, sometimes by taking off power on a shot where it looks like you will crush it is a good way.

 

If he is good at sending it deep, forget about trying to play short, you will make too many errors, Just find a way to get him to mis-read your spin (or lack of it), your pace (or lack of it) and your placement.

 

Do your best to land it deep, but not at the expense of your own consistency.

the trouble is that he gives me deep balls to the body and i cant pivot and some medium high balls he chops deep to my wide fh  and he plays with 0.7mm sponge if i get this straight i must not feed him short ball neither low balls ,is  deep and high the way to go?

You don't have to pivot if you know what is on the ball.  All you have to do is push it to where he is exposed.  If you can put backspin on the ball, you will get a ball back that you can attack.

Is he a penholder?  Does he use any non-LP rubber?

Short pips and Medium pips attackers as well as players with advanced two winged looping (especially brush-looping) techniques eat up my combination play. However, Intermediate level loopers usually struggle and either hit into the net or pop the ball up and close their eyes as I smash away with my FH. There are some LP players, who are so good placement, that the opponent never feels comfortable. I played a high level combination player on Saturday. It only went three games, and during that time I was only permitted to use my FH three times! He surgically removed me from the table!

shakehander  with T05+0.7mm  Dtects

Then if he returns every serve with his pips, serve into the short forehand or middle forehand, short/half long if he attacks if the ball is too long.  If his return is too low for you to attack if you serve no-spin/backspin or he gets to the backhand everytime, serve topspin.  In any case, push or attack the balls to the backhand.  If you push to the backhand with backspin, be ready to attack the return.  Unless the guy is 1900+ with this style, the key is always to attack the right ball before they set up defenses or to move them around so that the defense is not set when you attack.  The longer the rally, the more you play the battle of who is reading the ball better.  

You can also serve long into the backhand and then get ready to attack any return to the forehand.  Stay at the table when he blocks with his pips.  Continue trying to kill the return until you find the right racket angle  and stroke.  Because once you do, you don't have to change it.

- Send a majority of your serves fast and long, and with varying amounts of spin. Short balls are relatively easy for a pushblocker style player to handle and they can get an advantage with their placement. Generally, the more you can move them away from the table, the more advantages and opportunities you will have to attack.

 

- As you mentioned, your opponent rarely attacks. In my experience, you will find dtecs/LP players who use their pips primarily to set up their aggressive attack game, and you will find players who are more passive and want you to attack and make mistakes. If your opponent rarely attacks, it may be a worthwhile tactic to bait him to attack and see how he handles it. If his attack is weak and/or inconsistent, this may be a good way for you to score some easy points.

this player use his BH in both corners, i dont know what should be called BH, left corner of the table?..i ve been beating him some months ago just overpowering him but he s playing lower balls now and i m afraid to attack

ok i will try, ITOH you've played or maybe you know a korean cpen short pips player?  you mentioned in a posting? can you tell me about him?

 

Haha, I think we are talking about Jay Lee, a Korean dude who goes to Boston TTC in Medford.

 

He plays C-Pen with different bats. Mostly it is a combination of thin sponged LP / OX LP, but sometimes he breaks out bats with OX MP / OX LP or thin inverted / OX LP.

 

His USATT level is around 2100ish, but he is more capable for sure.

 

Ironically, Jay Lee says that players like him really like it when you give them spin. On a few levels, I think that is right. The more a player is confused by how spin reacts on an LP rubber used by a player with good timing and soft hands, the more he is confused by what comes back. Jay also adds his own level of HOT SAUCE to teh ball. (That means pace) Jay will take the ball off the bounce and hit. He blocks, but only when opponent overpressures him or hits something slow he can bloke poke at a sever angle to get you off your rocker. Jay is mostly a counterdriving attacker, but will dumb it down and block more if it troubles a player, why take chances?

 

Heavy spin deep to the BH corner troubles a LOT of players, even inverted players. With LP, it is downright difficult to counter attack a deep heavy spun ball. Mostly the shot is blocked. At best, the LP player can use some hand pressure magic and wipe off some spin and give back a deader ball than it looks. OX LP player will not be able to apply much time pressure from that shot, he has to omit the hot sauce on that ball to stay consistent. heavy spin is troublesome and the block can go too long, either way, it will go long and slow - no better ball for an attacking player to anticipate and attack aggressively with pace to the FH corner for a winner.

 

Jay makes his money in several ways. On serve, he can still generate at least light to medium spin and you still have to read it. He is good at short and halflong serves, sometimes he serves dead and long and dares you to open strong. You often mis-read his serve and play it safe on the return. Often, such a safe return is not placed very well or at least the depth is not deep near endline just to keep it in play. Jay will make a counter attack right off the bounce as fast as he can keep it on the tabel deep. Sometimes, he leaves it half depth and a little high to dare you to over-aggressive attack it without reading it right, which he gets a lot of points from errors that way.

 

You try to pwoer loop right away, he likes that. He can block and counter hit dead fast deep shots that do not have a ton of spin. If it is fast and spinny, he bump blocks it where you have the most problems continuing the attack. He can hang in there on bang bang fast exchanges where both players are basically slapping it fast.

 

Of course, if you try to make your push underspin a little heavy and he counters it, all that does is give him more ability to add hot sauce pace and still land it.

 

Jay has good footwork, he can step around, you wouldn't know he is 50ish and drinks beer / talks (subtle) trash. He is a riot, he will play with anyone and gives fits to the macho offensive attacking crowd. He can have trouble vs some of the unorthidox crowd, but he figures it out soon enough.

 

To win vs Jay, you really got to play 2200 level, it's that simple. You can try all day to do what is supposed to work - keep it low, lay off the spin, real low and short or real low and deep, maybe real heavy and deep until he misreads and gives you a little long high ball to go apeshyt on. You can try those good advice things vs him, but if your allround game and ability to read spin, anticipate, be in position, and take the right risks... if you cannot do that at his 2200 level, you can call it a night. All you will be doing is holding the tail of the monkey.

Looking at that confession, I would say this player is prone to a medium heavy tospin serve down his FH line that he will block with his BH, the block will go long, maybe high if he misreads the spin, this is your chance for a fast loop to his now vacant BH corner or maybe even right back to where it came from as he may be bugging out in a hurry to get back to cover his BH corner. Making one of those shots is ALWAYS a fun one to do. Opponent knows he cannot get it and guessed wrong holding the wrong end to the monkey's tail.

 

If this opponent doesn't attack, maybe it is a good idea to give a dead ball kinda high, but deep, and also change up the spin from light to heavy, looks like you will get back a lot of long or high balls to tee off on.

 

problem might be that he has enough off an allround game with depth/height control to make it troublesome to do that like you want.

 

One way to cope with such an opponent (who doesn't attack) who keeps it low to make you wary of opening is to vary the spin on your underspin pushes. It is nice to make those go deep, but the deal is to change up the spin and make him read spin better. Unless he is way above your level, you will get some errors or at the very least some balls that are higher and more long than the opponent wants to give.

 

VictorK has more than one shot in his game, a very flexible player who can do you in any number of ways. He is also 1.5 - 2 levels a better player than either of us.

 

Jay is that level or better, and both of us have tools to win points and games vs him, but putting them all together to win a match vs him without too many errors or chances to him is a tall order for either of us.

 

The HEAVY spin loop (haha a heavy BH loop is BETTER) is one mean shot that has a minor chance of winning the point and a better chance to make a point winning attack.

the thing i wanted to know about the korean guy its that he played with xtend po sometimes and moristo sp , i guess he had a better rank maybe we re talking about other korean guy

My own strategy is when you get a good ball chop it very deep and with as much spin as you can to his LP side. Heavy and deep BACKspin comes back with no spin or even topspin. If you pushed it deep enough, his return will be kind of long too. And very often it will pop a little. Then I put everything I have in this ball and rip it. If it comes back, hold your horses and just make a safe push. Then look for a strong chop again, and rip whatever comes back.

 

Do you mean my former club's J-Pen SP player that I used to occasionally post about, who is now Div 0 city level about 2250 or so USATT level?

He is on far side single sided J-Pen SP player, from 2010 Seungnam Div 3 natl finals.

 

http://youtu.be/O0wfHz3dz4Q" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/O0wfHz3dz4Q

i guess if this tips applies to tibhar dtects or any LP, IF i serve fast backspin will return like top?

Cool tip, why  have you stopped playing with Dtects?

i recall it was a guy that was very fast and played with yasaka xtend po pips.not sure if he s the same guy never saw him before, but you said like it was a player that could hit a lot of forehands

so is he using still xtend PO? have you talked to him recently?

 

His default blade and rubbers were an ancient Yasaka thin carbon J-Pen blade and sponged SP from Yasaka, Extend PO. His game was centered upon controlling the ball close to the table with a powerful step around finish to anything you gave him he wanted to go off on, he could also drift back and counter landing it deep and not so spinny. Had variation on serves and a great 3rd ball finish you had to guess since he could open or close wrist suddenly right before impact.

Hehe QP, Yup.

 

The entire idea and tactic of "playing it safe" and "waiting for a good/better chance to attack" gets that world violently turned upside down and thrown out the window / smashed the window on its way going out by a willing and ready combo player with a fearsome FH attack I would say.

 

GyuHyuk is using his old standbay bat, his old bat had black SP on it.

 

I play vs Gyuhyuk in a similar way, heavy and deep, but this opponent is a lot better than me and I am forced to play div 3 at that club in that tourney.

 

That is how it goes over there. You want to make it deep into a tourney field, you have to either 2 levels higher skilled than your opponnets, or you have to PLAY 2 levels higher the ENTIRE tourney or you will get CTL-ALT-DEL outta the tourney quicker than Imelda Marcos hits the purchase now button for shoes.

 

http://cafe.daum.net/qhfmaekfxn/JYk1/148?q=%C0%D3%B1%D4%C7%F5%20%C5%B9%B1%B8&re=1" rel="nofollow - http://cafe.daum.net/qhfmaekfxn/JYk1/148?q=%C0%D3%B1%D4%C7%F5%20%C5%B9%B1%B8&re=1

 

His opponent is a Div 3 city player one level lower div than I am, by I win vs this guy a LOT when I play at Hyundai I give him 2 pt handicap... and we throw down a few refreshments before I play as well :)

 

In this vid, Gyuhyuk is playing with one of his experimental bats, note his is using round bat (not square J-Pen) and his FH rubber is red SP. Gyhuk is giving him a 4 point handicap, so he is rated 3 levels below Gyuhuk, who is usually now a Div 0 city player, so they got the handicap point total right this time. That other guy he played at Yangju was in the same class as Gyuhyuk and got away with being lower classified.

 

Look how Gyuhyuk finishes the last 4 points. He could do that all day vs this opponent and many opponents he faces that are one level below him. Shows how under-classified the Yangju tourney guy was. I bet in 2015 if he shows up they make him play same Div 3 as GyuHyuk. If you look closely, you can see his wife Anhyang sitting in the middle of the couch looking on.

http://tvpot.daum.net/clip/ClipView.do?clipid=51953644" rel="nofollow - http://tvpot.daum.net/clip/ClipView.do?clipid=51953644