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is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers?

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Topic: is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers?
Posted By: AgReZz
Subject: is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers?
Date Posted: 10/11/2014 at 4:51pm
If so what do they use?



Replies:
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/11/2014 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by AgReZz AgReZz wrote:

If so what do they use?

any top40 player boost, most europeans boost with dandoyTRF,koreans, japanese,taipei..chinese boost with seamoon kailin


Posted By: Purett
Date Posted: 10/11/2014 at 7:00pm
dianchi glue booster 

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rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001


Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 10/11/2014 at 7:39pm
No, they don't use Seamoon or dianchi in the national team. Those are both really common for the top provincial guys though. I know Chen Xi from Fujian uses Seamoon. They use a different haifu oil that's stronger in the CNT. This is what I heard from Yu Ziyang.


Posted By: AgReZz
Date Posted: 10/12/2014 at 5:51pm
Must be nice to have the boosters available. I would love to try my boosted tenergy 05fx


Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 10/12/2014 at 9:16pm
dianchi booster was one of the most popular in CNT, but there's some new ones out so i don't really follow. some have stopped boosting (or not any noticeable amt) though bc of greater scrutiny. haifu sanding is probably what beeray is talking about but that was limited production and older. 

@OP hurricane is meant to be boosted so of course, yes. even reg h3 was meant to be speed glued. NEO is designed for boost. the so called "tuning layer" doesn't boost itself. it's a protective glue layer to prevent damage to the sponge when you boost.


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Viscaria
H3N/T05
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Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 10/12/2014 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

some have stopped boosting (or not any noticeable amt) though bc of greater scrutiny.  


I didn't know this. That's pretty crazy to think about. In my mind, the ones who would receive scrutiny would be the main players, but at the same time i would think they'd be the last to stop boosting. Where is it coming from? Internally, or internationally? 


Posted By: schen
Date Posted: 10/13/2014 at 7:38pm
The Chinese national team primarily boost with Haifu SanDing Oil (the thin/runny dark brown oil with little particles in it and comes in the haifu bottle with a yellow cap with brush attached).

Dianchi (version 1 - pale yellow and runny in a large bottle with some particles - fails miniRAE test and I think was discontinued, and version 2 - same pale yellow but slightly thicker than SanDing with no particles and comes in the smaller bottle with brush in cap)

Seamoon (thickest and sticky, brown, no particles)

and KaiLin (similar consistency to Dianchi, but more transparent, no particles) 

are more popular among the provincial players because the SanDing oil hasn't been publicly available for some time now and only CNT members can readily obtain them.  Some provincial players have had SanDing from before it was taken off the market, or through connections to Haifu or CNT members.  KaiLin oil has become increasingly hard to obtain as well, and is the most expensive (and in my opinion the most effective) booster still on the Chinese market.

This information is from my club's coaching staff, a retired women's CNT member and a handful retired Chinese provincial team members.


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Posted By: Purett
Date Posted: 10/13/2014 at 9:07pm
if you guys get to 2400 then you should  start boosting

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rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001


Posted By: Fehrplay
Date Posted: 10/14/2014 at 8:23am
Of course they do, maybe not everybody but definitely the most! 


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 10/14/2014 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

if you guys get to 2400 then you should  start boosting


That kind of logic sounds good...till you try to do it.
If boosting helps and you are 2375 trying to beat those boosting 2405 players you are at a disadvantage. Indeed you are at a disadvantage at 2375 playing 2300 boosters too!!

Me-i am not going to boost and not going to get near those levels, but for those willing to win at any price it is hard to enact that "wait till you are xxxx rating before you boost."

I suspect that there are a number of top world players who do not boost at all. But who really knows.


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 1:52am
Originally posted by Fehrplay Fehrplay wrote:

Of course they do, maybe not everybody but definitely the most! 

if you could see the pros warming up very close  in the practice area  you can easily tell that they re boosting,korbel said that nobody can play at that level unboosted without destroying your arm


Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 2:31am
Boosting increases speed but most of all spin amount.
Even modern defenders boost their forehand rubber, incredible difference when chopping, serving, looping.
At equal level, If your opponent plays with boosted rubbers and you don't, no chance for you to win....
The same for top Chinese players.


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Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm


Posted By: Fehrplay
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 11:41am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by Fehrplay Fehrplay wrote:

Of course they do, maybe not everybody but definitely the most! 

if you could see the pros warming up very close  in the practice area  you can easily tell that they re boosting,korbel said that nobody can play at that level unboosted without destroying your arm

Yes exactly, of course there are exceptions but I would also guess 99% of the pros boost. 


Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 11:57am
It should be obvious to everyone that they use boosted rubbers and they have been doing so ever since the ban was introduced.

The need for boosting is even more pronounced with the new ball and it is no wonder that most non-Chinese pros are still using Tenergy on both sides.

It has been repeated over and over on the forum that they use boosted stuff. The question is where the boosting was done but it is irrelevant for the fact that it is boosted like hell.




Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

if you guys get to 2400 then you should ย start boosting


That kind of logic sounds good...till you try to do it.
If boosting helps and you are 2375 trying to beat those boosting 2405 players you are at a disadvantage. Indeed you are at a disadvantage at 2375 playing 2300 boosters too!!

Me-i am not going to boost and not going to get near those levels, but for those willing to win at any price it is hard to enact that "wait till you are xxxx rating before you boost."

I suspect that there are a number of top world players who do not boost at all. But who really knows.


I think you missed Purett's point. In the context of the example you gave, he's saying you, as an unboosted 2375, would NOT be at a disadvantage against a boosted 2300, because a 2300 doesn't have good enough techniques to benefit from the boost. In fact, a 2300 may play worse with boosted rubbers than unboosted...


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

In fact, a 2300 may play worse with boosted rubbers than unboosted...


'May' is the operative word here. Boosting Tenergy, your statement is quite possible. Boosting H3 (the topic implicitly questions whether they boost their Chinese rubbers), it is a lot less possible.

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Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/08/2017 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by schen schen wrote:

The Chinese national team primarily boost with Haifu SanDing Oil (the thin/runny dark brown oil with little particles in it and comes in the haifu bottle with a yellow cap with brush attached).

Dianchi (version 1 - pale yellow and runny in a large bottle with some particles - fails miniRAE test and I think was discontinued, and version 2 - same pale yellow but slightly thicker than SanDing with no particles and comes in the smaller bottle with brush in cap)

Seamoon (thickest and sticky, brown, no particles)

and KaiLin (similar consistency to Dianchi, but more transparent, no particles) 

are more popular among the provincial players because the SanDing oil hasn't been publicly available for some time now and only CNT members can readily obtain them.  Some provincial players have had SanDing from before it was taken off the market, or through connections to Haifu or CNT members.  KaiLin oil has become increasingly hard to obtain as well, and is the most expensive (and in my opinion the most effective) booster still on the Chinese market.

This information is from my club's coaching staff, a retired women's CNT member and a handful retired Chinese provincial team members.

Very interesting.  Apparently, since the information in your post was quite specific, members of the CNT did boost their rubbers in 2014 with at least three different kinds of boosters, version 1 on Dianchi which failed a miniRAE test and was possibly discontinued.  And apparently according to your post members of the CNT were boosting with SanDing oil which as of your post of 2014 could be obtained only by CNT members, though possibly other CNT members as of 2014 were also using Seamoon and KaiLin oils to boost their rubbers. 


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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 09/09/2017 at 7:24am
"
Boosting increases speed but most of all spin amount.
Even modern defenders boost their forehand rubber, incredible difference when chopping, serving, looping.
At equal level, If your opponent plays with boosted rubbers and you don't, no chance for you to win....
The same for top Chinese players.


very funny!!!LOL

to win an opponent at your level does
 
not need right technique ...
not need tactics ....
not need concentration ....
only need the right booster !!!



Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 09/09/2017 at 1:54pm
I can tell you from personal experience that mostly everybody who plays (with Hurricanes) an offensive game, loops from mid distance or beyond...Boosts their Hurricanes...And I am not talking about the PROs, but anyone who plays a reasonable level (maybe 2300 or up usatt, I have not played in the US for a couple of years now).

If you have ever seen a high level Chinese PRO play live (I have had the opportunity to see a couple of SuperLeague matches) I dunno how you would believe that there was even a question of them not just boosting, but boosting to a ridiculous amount.
The speed which these guys get off counterlooping, which the smallest of strokes, defies physics otherwise.

As someone who has used an unboosted H3N for a year or so at a usatt 2100 or so level, I can tell you that it's is not possible for a offensive mid distance hurricane player to make much progress without boosting. The difference between a boosted and unboosted H3N is night and day


Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 09/09/2017 at 3:29pm
ITTF outlowed factory-tuned rubbers.   Effective July 1, 2017.

And they still looking for a way to control the boosting by players. God speed ITTF.

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Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/09/2017 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

ITTF outlowed factory-tuned rubbers.   Effective July 1, 2017.

And they still looking for a way to control the boosting by players. God speed ITTF.

A small step in the right direction, igorponger.  What will those players who presently use factory tuned rubbers do now that factory tuned rubbers are no longer permissible?  Try to play without them, or resort to using the boosting oils now available?  And if they play without tuned (boosted) rubber of any kind, can they still play as effectively as they could before when they had access to both factory-tuned rubbers and boosting oils?  After July 1, 2017, and it is now September 9, 2017, players who use boosters that once were factory boosted are going to have to boost them themselves. 

And so it goes.  Will the top pros resort to illegal boosting (have the top pros always resorted to illegal boosting?)?  Stay tuned. 

A better idea:  Why doesn't the ITTF simply ban boosting-tuning oils as well?  Oh gee, they can't because they're presently undetectable (I guess).  And the beat goes on and on and on.  Bozhe moy!


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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 09/09/2017 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I can tell you from personal experience that mostly everybody who plays (with Hurricanes) an offensive game, loops from mid distance or beyond...Boosts their Hurricanes...And I am not talking about the PROs, but anyone who plays a reasonable level (maybe 2300 or up usatt, I have not played in the US for a couple of years now).

If you have ever seen a high level Chinese PRO play live (I have had the opportunity to see a couple of SuperLeague matches) I dunno how you would believe that there was even a question of them not just boosting, but boosting to a ridiculous amount.
The speed which these guys get off counterlooping, which the smallest of strokes, defies physics otherwise.

As someone who has used an unboosted H3N for a year or so at a usatt 2100 or so level, I can tell you that it's is not possible for a offensive mid distance hurricane player to make much progress without boosting. The difference between a boosted and unboosted H3N is night and day


you're right, but 90%-95% of players have no need to boost,
 they just have to train and improve on the technical level.Wink


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/09/2017 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

   ITTF outlowed factory-tuned rubbers.   Effective July 1, 2017.

And they still looking for a way to control the boosting by players. God speed ITTF.

I don't know about that. Sharara's words will come back and haunt them. Perhaps now is the time.

Sharara was quoted saying speedgluing was never banned, but that they have merely set limits to the VOC content, and that as long as the boosting and tuning process are applied at the factory-level, then all is good.

Another point is many of the so-called boosters and tuners are technically plasticizer that have real, legitimate use in the processing of rubbers.

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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g ใ€ƒ ใ€ƒ)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/10/2017 at 6:25pm
I have not heard that Tibhar MX-P has been banned by ITTF. Open up a package and it smells strongly like Dandoy Biobooster. I'm not sure where Igorponger read this. Again, the reason ITTF banned VOC solvents in glue was for safety.

Hard to see why they even care about boosters.



Posted By: Chairman Meow
Date Posted: 09/10/2017 at 7:16pm
Are any top players using Lidu booster (yellow or white) or Haifu black oil?

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-1 ply Cypress 11.5mm "The Castigator"
-H3 Prov. Blue Sponge 2.2mm 41 deg.
-H3 Prov. Orange Sponge 2.1mm 37 deg


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/10/2017 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have not heard that Tibhar MX-P has been banned by ITTF. Open up a package and it smells strongly like Dandoy Biobooster. I'm not sure where Igorponger read this. Again, the reason ITTF banned VOC solvents in glue was for safety.

Hard to see why they even care about boosters.


2.4.7 The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment.  (ITTF Handbook 2017)

I'm not sure what this means.  If it means that a racket covering can't be either factory boosted or boosted by any other "physical, chemical or other treatment", then boosting a rubber whether done by a player or by a manufacturer would be illegal.

According to igorponger (Igor Novick), who is a certified International Umpire (correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Novick), rubbers can no longer be factory tuned (boosted) as of August 1, 2017.  Perhaps there is an addendum to an ITTF Technical Leaflet (I searched the ITTF website and found the 2017 Handbook but it mentioned nothing about a ban beginning August 1, 2017).  If Igor Novick would mention the ITTF source for this ban that would clarify the question.  I do not see, however, why, if he is a certified International Umpire, he would risk his reputation by writing something about an ITTF ban on factory tuned rubbers to a nearly 30,000 member table tennis forum that has no basis in fact.

As to why the ITTF would care about boosters, if used by a player to enhance his rubber, that is illegal according to ITTF rules.  And if Mr. Novick has received word from the ITTF that as of August 1st of this year factory boosted (tuned, for all practical purposes synonomous) rubbers will be considered illegal, then presumably manufacturers would not be allowed to boost them and players would not be allowed to use them.  Testing for illegal boosters is another question that the ITTF needs to resolve.  Or they can wash their hands of the question as to whether a factory tuned or a factory tuned/player tuned rubber gives that player an advantage when playing against an opponent who does not boost because they have yet to come up with a device that can with the necessary precision, whatever that might be, detect the presence of a booster.

The ITTF has painted itself into a corner regarding the boosting/tuning problem.  Or maybe there is no boosting/tuning problem, and thus no need either for manufacturers to boost their rubbers or players to boost them using oils such as Dianchi and Haifu and Seamoon.




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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/10/2017 at 9:36pm
Berndt, you are an idiot.  I am sorry it comes to this.  But that is the case. 

Because if you take the point of view that factories can't do it because it entails a "physical, chemical or other treatment", then the problem is that everything the factories do in the manufacturing of the rubber would be illegal.  Every step they take in the manufacturing of the rubber is a physical, chemical, or other treatment.   When does one decide that the rubber itself has completed the manufacturing process? 

As for Igor, he writes a lot of stuff here that could only come from somebody in the fits of delirium tremens.  (Funny too that you are willing to accept his word because he is an umpire, because previously you were unwilling to accept the rulings of ITTF umpires qualified to work international matches as to the legality of serves.  You accept authority when it suits you but in this case your taste is quite bad).  In any case, your insistence on an appeal to authority is almost always a useless argument.  What would be a good argument is if you posted a document from ITTF itself showing that they have taken this position. 

In fact Igor may actually be correct about this, but it is not something I have been able to find with some considerable searching, and as with pretty much everything he writes, it is suspect until proven.  This new rule is not in the 2017 ITTF Handbook.  It is not in the most recent posted Technical Leaflet T4 regarding table tennis racket coverings.  And, the latest ITTF List of Approved Racket Coverings (LARC) from September of this year includes Tibhar Evolution MX-P, which for anyone who has ever used it, is pretty much the epitome of a factory-boosted rubber.  Anyone who has ever opened a pack of that rubber, or has ever sniffed Dandoy booster would know that smell in one second, also the way the rubber performance declines over time.

So I will wait for further conformation.  But if it is true, it is another example of ITTF being quite imprecise in the use of language, an ongoing problem with them.

In any case, on this thread especially, please trust me.....   nobody cares what you think about boosting.  Frankly, it is unlikely that anyone on the forum cares much for anything you post, which I would think would be something you are reminded of now on an almost daily basis.


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 09/10/2017 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have not heard that Tibhar MX-P has been banned by ITTF. Open up a package and it smells strongly like Dandoy Biobooster. I'm not sure where Igorponger read this. Again, the reason ITTF banned VOC solvents in glue was for safety.

Hard to see why they even care about boosters.




same with rakza9 smell the same like trf dandoy booster but its hard to believe a pro is gonna play with rakza 9


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/10/2017 at 9:47pm
The other point is that it should have been quite obvious that when I asked why ITTF cares about boosters, that question meant, why did they decide to make them illegal?  Originally the justification for banning speed glue (glues with volatile organic solvents) was for health reasons.  Boosters do not represent a health risk.  (If so, we better get baby oil off the bums of babies pronto).  Later Sharara made some stupid noises that boosters were harmful and that "we want a clean sport", by analogy to, say, cycling.  It was a crock then.  The truth is that they think slowing down the sport will be good for it.  That is also why they increased plastic balls from 39.5 to 40.5 mm. 

But they never ever admit it.  They never come out and say, our goal is to slow things down, and therefore they never say WHY they want to do this.  The argument that it will give longer more spectacular rallies?  I can actually buy that.  They should just say it.   

The thing is that none of these measures really change the sport that much.  Going from 38 mm to 40 mm and then from 40.5 mm, banning speed glue, etc.  Watch a match from 1989.  Watch Gatien or Waldner, or Persson from that era.  The way the game has changed reflects changes that in large measure would have taken place anyway (some were well underway).  Korbel was already hitting banana flicks.  Schlager was hitting reverse pendulum serves.  A very young Wang Hao was perfecting his RPB.  Gatien was looping right off the bounce, like Harimoto or FZD.  I actually think we do have longer rallies now, and the serve is less of an advantage than it used to be.




Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/10/2017 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have not heard that Tibhar MX-P has been banned by ITTF. Open up a package and it smells strongly like Dandoy Biobooster. I'm not sure where Igorponger read this. Again, the reason ITTF banned VOC solvents in glue was for safety.

Hard to see why they even care about boosters.




same with rakza9 smell the same like trf dandoy booster but its hard to believe a pro is gonna play with rakza 9


Maybe not but there are quite a few pros in Europe playing with Evolution rubbers.


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/10/2017 at 10:42pm
(Baal)  Berndt, you are an idiot.  I am sorry it comes to this.  But that is the case.  

Because if you take the point of view that factories can't do it because it entails a "physical, chemical or other treatment", then the problem is that everything the factories do in the manufacturing of the rubber would be illegal.  Every step they take in the manufacturing of the rubber is a physical, chemical, or other treatment.   When does one decide that the rubber itself has completed the manufacturing process? 

(Baal again)  And, the latest ITTF List of Approved Racket Coverings (LARC) from September of this year includes Tibhar Evolution MX-P, which for anyone who has ever used it, is pretty much the epitome of a factory-boosted rubber.  Anyone who has ever opened a pack of that rubber, or has ever sniffed Dandoy booster would know that smell in one second,  

(B. Mann)  Obviously, you insolent twit, at least one factory, that factory which manufactures Tibhar Evolution Evolution MX-P, does, in your own considered scientific opinion, manufacture "pretty much the epitome  of a factory boosted rubber".  Was Sriver "pretty much the epitome of a factory boosted rubber"?  Yasaka Cobra?  Mark V?  Does any player really need to use Dandoy booster, or any other booster for that matter?

I did not just get off a banana boat, metaphorically speaking.  I know damn well that manufacturing table tennis rubbers entails physical, chemical, or other treatment(s).  

The question at hand, though, is, is igorponger suffering from delerium tremens, simply delusional, or just a plain barefaced liar when he posted that as of August 1, 2017, the ITTF would no longer permit factory boosted/tuned rubbers?  I don't know the answer to that question, as I indicated on my last post on this subject.  Nor do I know, as I also indicated, from what ITTF source his claim came from.

Nor do I know why he would, as I have posted, unless he is a drunk, suffering from premature dementia, or a lying sack of (expletive deleted), have made the post that he made.  His reputation is at stake, as is your own if you accuse a fellow member in print of this table tennis forum without definitive proof of being a falling down flat-ass quivering drunk.


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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: ttTurkey
Date Posted: 09/10/2017 at 10:51pm
Of course they all boost. Anyone who played in the speed-glue era can hear the difference between a boosted and unboosted racket. I think it was Henzell who said something like the CNT's rackets were all noisy but Ma Lin's sounded like a gunshot. (This is not to single out the CNT, other top teams boost too).

Another way of looking at it is that some top atheletes in any given sport will cheat with stuff that is detectable but they try to get away with it e.g. by taking small doses, timing it so that it is likely to be undetectable by the time they are tested, strapping tubes connected to clean urine to their privates etc.  Armstrong loved to say that he was the most tested athlete in history. Imagine how many sprinters would be clean if steroids were undetectable.


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 12:15am
(Baal)  As for Igor, he writes a lot of stuff here that could only come from somebody in the fits of delirium tremens.  (Funny too that you are willing to accept his word because he is an umpire, because previously you were unwilling to accept the rulings of ITTF umpires qualified to work international matchesas to the legality of serves.  

(B. Mann)  According to a check of the ITTF list of certified International Umpires as of 2016, Igor Novick's name was not on that eleven page list.  He was not a certified International Umpire, and I am now skeptical as to whether he was ever a Certified International Umpire.

Igor Novick's reputation if indeed he was ever a certified International Umpire is tarnished.  I hope that he has an explanation for deceiving me, admittedly gullible in initially acceptiing his word concerning the banning of factory boosted/tuned rubbers as of August 1st of this year, as well as others who read his post.

Igor Novick is deceitful unless he can cite a credible source from the International Table Tennis Federation to support his claim.  

Whether or not Igor Novick suffers from fits of delerium tremens is a question that you are not qualified to diagnose from cyberspace as you are not a physician, and while, since I am the epitome  of a courteous Tucsonan I would not go so far as to call you an idiot for your conjecture based on his posts of igorponger's penchant for consumption of alcoholic beverages, I will say that that is bloody cheeky of you.  A deceiver, unless he can prove otherwise, certainly.  

As for qualified International Umpires and the legality of serves, this issue becomes a matter of faith inasmuch as qualified International Umpires very very seldom call any international player's serve, male or female, illegal.  We just have to accept their word for that, don't we?

    



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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 12:49am
Let's talk a bit about gullibility:

All of the pros who attack all of the time use only factory tuned rubbers.  (Except maybe for Timo Boll)

None of the pros boost their rubbers with boosters. 

None of the pros serve illegally if qualified International Umpires don't call their services illegal.  

Boosting a rubber doesn't matter, because you can play just as well if you don't boost.

Table tennis is just fine the way it is.

Now that's gullibility.  Mixed in with the cognitive faculties of a fruit fly, should you actually give some credence to that happy horse dung. 


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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 1:44am
So why are Baal and Berndt fighting?  I mean, is this conversation meaningful in any way, or just throwing rocks at each other?

Facts:

1. ITTF chose to make boosting illegal.  People can choose to agree or disagree with the decision, or to challenge their reasoning, but it's a waste of time.  I went through that with their switch from celluloid to poly; they don't care about and are not influenced by our opinions.

2. Most professionals boost anyway, but if ITTF made a rule against boosting, then they're probably looking for a way to enforce that rule.

As an aside: the argument about whether lower rated players should boost is as old as the advent of speed glue.  It's going to happen, so get over it.

3. Some rubbers are manufactured factory tuned/boosted.  In the past, manufactured rubbers only had to be the same as the sample rubbers that were submitted to ITTF for approval.  If someone got approval for a factory boosted rubber, then it was legal, while the same rubber, boosted at home (so the approved version was not factory-boosted) is illegal.  It's not a question of what's fair or not, it's just the way the ITTF works.

4. By the same token, if ITTF decides to withdraw approval for some rubbers (supposedly because they were factory tuned, but it could really be for any reason), then that's their right.  Although, like Baal, I would need to see proof to believe it, but it certainly could happen if they wanted.

Personally, I'm a lot more upset about illegal serves and the 40+ balls than boosting, but I know ITTF will keep doing whatever it wants.  It's not a democracy and it's not accountable to us (any of the players).


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 3:22am
igor http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78919&title=ittf-keeps-attacking-the-booster" rel="nofollow - was referring to the following proposition at the https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/03/2017_AGM_BoD_book.pdf" rel="nofollow - AGM 2017 .

P.109
Quote Proposed by the ITTF Equipment Committee

To amend Technical Leaflet:
- T4 for Racket Coverings (update)
...
Page 11: Companies that sell boosters should not be permitted to have ITTF authorized equipment.

Boosting is an illegal practice, and companies that sell the boosters are enabling and encouraging players to do this. At the same time, those companies are able to use the fact that they produce boosters for a special marketing advantage that can make their products seem more appealing. For example (these are not actual statements they have made):
     o โ€œOur rubbers are specially formulated to be used with our boosters.โ€
     o โ€œIf you like our boosters, you can buy our rubbers that are pre-boosted to save you the trouble of boosting.โ€
     o โ€œIf you like our rubbers but want something slightly different, just buy our booster and use it on a different rubber.โ€

Furthermore, as a general principle, the ITTF should avoid association with companies that encourage practices that violate ITTF rules.


P.121
Quote 6. Supplierโ€™s responsibilities
It is the responsibility of the suppliers to keep their brands on the LARC by paying the fees and maintaining the original properties of the racket covering as authorised, without alterations.

Suppliers that produce, market, sell, or are otherwise associated with illegal substances and treatments may not apply for authorisation of any racket covering. Their equipment will not be permitted to appear on the LARC, and may not use the ITTF logo.


It has been 3 months since the AGM and the results have yet to be made public. Either way, assuming it has been passed, the ITTF has NOT outlawed factory boosting, but instead intends to eradicate aftermarket boosting at the source.

They've finally put them up. https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/01/AGM_Minutes_20170531_GER.pdf" rel="nofollow - AGM . https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/01/BoD_Minutes_20170602_GER.pdf" rel="nofollow - BoD .

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g ใ€ƒ ใ€ƒ)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 7:18am
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=66107#p66107" rel="nofollow - Sharara's response on factory versus aftermarket boosting.

9 years in and we, which they don't care, are still in this mess.

Well, what can we expect when it took them just as long to properly put their stance on illegal substances in the T4.

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=63176#p63176" rel="nofollow - http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=63176#p63176
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24005&title=adham-factory-tuned-rubbers" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24005&title=adham-factory-tuned-rubbers

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g ใ€ƒ ใ€ƒ)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 8:15am
By the same reasoning igor used, our nets are illegal because raising tbe height was propsed at the AGM. Until something appears in T4, current rules apply, so anything applied in the factory is legal and anything applied by a player, even if it is the same substance used by the factory is illegal (albeit undetectable). Also, even is there was no booster and we still had 1989 service rules Berndt would complain because he liked 1959 better and interjects that into every single thread; but perhaps not for long if he doesn't head my warning. I am running out of patience.

So here is tbe deal. This thread is about what boosters some pros might use for those who care. It is duely noted and stipulated that some people strongly object to boosting. We get that. You have made the point, here and in other threads.

All subsequent cooments on this thread objecting to boosting will be hidden because it is noted that some members object. This thread is about what booster, how and who.





Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 4:45pm
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-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 5:07pm
Excellent.  Berndt has just won some ttnpp loyalty points, worth exactly $1.00  which he can share with Timo.


Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 5:17pm
.


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 6:05pm
To roundrobin:  Your entire post is a non sequitur.

To Baal:  How long will you persist in trying to defend the indefensible?

Otherwise, no comment.  Res ipsa loquitur.





-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: panany
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 6:56pm
i know somes player frome national team chinese personally and by somes friend and is sure 10000% they boost his rubber ....


for french player in national team all i know use booster too ....



Posted By: panany
Date Posted: 09/11/2017 at 7:01pm
then all depends players... some prefer lidu, somes haifu , somes kailin...


i has talk with zhou yu few days ago and he says he uses , for h3 haifu i dont what what color he uses i dont ask him .... and kailin for backhand...


but i listen just few use haifu black... most use haifu yellow .....


and for lot of chinese player of province lot of use kailin....



if u have any question u can ask me... and if i can i will try answer u or try ask somes friends :)


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/12/2017 at 5:29pm

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-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/12/2017 at 10:06pm

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It is famous for its quality and long lasting effect. A lot of top table tennis players (including Ma Long and Timo Boll) use this table tennis booster.

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-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/12/2017 at 10:35pm

Who is boosting?

From the sounds of all, practically all of the worldโ€™s top table tennis players are boosting their rubbers. This has been confirmed by a number of different international players and coaches.

Ben Larcombe, June 27, 2016

https://www.experttabletennis.com/best-table-tennis-booster/



-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: SmackDAT
Date Posted: 09/12/2017 at 10:58pm
STOP PLEASE 

-------------
Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g)
Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B)
Tenergy 19 (2.1, R)
https://goo.gl/bFWoxW" rel="nofollow - https://goo.gl/bFWoxW


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 8:56am
(Ben Larcombe, English table tennis coach)

Table Tennis Boosters

While boosting your table tennis rubbers is technically against  http://www.experttabletennis.com/table-tennis-rules-and-regulations/" rel="nofollow - ITTF rules , it is commonplace among elite players and even occurs at World Tour events! If you are interested in boosting your rubbers you should check out my articles,  http://www.experttabletennis.com/how-to-boost-your-table-tennis-rubber/" rel="nofollow - How to Boost Your Table Tennis Rubber  and  http://www.experttabletennis.com/best-table-tennis-booster/" rel="nofollow - The Best Table Tennis Booster .

https://www.experttabletennis.com/equipment/

According to the four sources I have cited, boosting a table tennis rubber, though illegal according to ITTF rules, is either commonplace or almost universally done by the world's best table tennis players.

Does anyone on this forum care to either confirm or deny that sources I have cited are either correct or mistaken?



-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:04am
The mods should lock this thread or this man!


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:12am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

(Ben Larcombe, English table tennis coach)

<h2 style="-sizing: border-; font-family: Quicksand, sans-serif; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.2; margin: 0px 0px 20px; font-size: 3.2rem;">Table Tennis Boosters</h2><p style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 30px; padding: 0px; font-family: "Cormorant Garamond", serif; font-size: 22px;">While boosting your table tennis rubbers is technically againstย  http://www.experttabletennis.com/table-tennis-rules-and-regulations/" rel="nofollow - ITTF rules , it is commonplace among elite players and even occurs at World Tour events! If you are interested in boosting your rubbers you should check out my articles,ย  http://www.experttabletennis.com/how-to-boost-your-table-tennis-rubber/" rel="nofollow - How to Boost Your Table Tennis Rubber ย andย  http://www.experttabletennis.com/best-table-tennis-booster/" rel="nofollow - The Best Table Tennis Booster .

<p style="margin: 0px 0px 30px; padding: 0px;"><font face="Cormorant Garamond, serif"><span style="font-size: 22px;">https://www.experttabletennis.com/equipment/</span>


_


Yes, this is the truth that some naive people on this forum dont want to know. Just don't understand why.


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:13am
If ALL the pros are boosting then no one has an unfair advantage by definition.

The  ITTF rule is stupid.

FdT


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:13am
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

The mods should lock this thread or this man!


This is a good discussion, why lock it?


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:16am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

If ALL the pros are boosting then no one has an unfair advantage by definition.

The ย ITTF rule is stupid.

FdT


yes, quite a stupid rule,



Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:21am
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

The mods should lock this thread or this man!

The thread is entitled is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers.  The four sources I have cited confirm that either "a lot" or almost all of the world's top players boost their rubbers.  This, though presently undetectable, is an illegal practice.  It is cheating, whether detectable or not, and utterly soils any portrail that might be made by anyone who condones this practice or proclaims it superficial and not worthy of discussion, that table tennis at its highest level is an honest sport played by honest players.




-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:25am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

The mods should lock this thread or this man!


The thread is entitled is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers. ย The four sources I have cited confirm that either "a lot" or almost all of the world's top players boost their rubbers. ย This, though presently undetectable, is an illegal practice. ย It is cheating, whether detectable or not, and utterly soils any portrail that might be made by anyone who condones this practice or proclaims it superficial and not worthy of discussion, that table tennis at its highest level is an honest sport played by honest players.




Yes, basically all top players boost their rubbers, with the exceptions of mizutani and boll


Posted By: HuLimei
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:31am
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

 
Yes, basically all top players boost their rubbers, with the exceptions of mizutani and boll

We should also include Harimoto in that list since it's now become a RULE that tt players SHOULD ride Harimoto's D because of his age (despite his legs not being able to support the combined weights of 100 obese men yet).


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:36am
Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

ย 
Yes, basically all top players boost their rubbers, with the exceptions of mizutani and boll


We should also include Harimoto in that list since it's now become a RULE that tt players SHOULD ride Harimoto's D because of his age (despite his legs not being able to support the combined weights of 100 obese men yet).


what is the letter D ?


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:37am
"The thread is entitled is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers.  The four sources I have cited confirm that either "a lot" or almost all of the world's top players boost their rubbers. "

Not even close. The claims on a webpage could not be considered "confirmed statements" when it is clear that the purpose of those claims is to sell equipment. It is advertising. Now this does not mean pros do not boost. I suppose they do. However the claim is not whether they boost. The claim is whether ALL OF THEM BOOST. 

My question is why are we focusing on the chinese players only? Wasn't it the hungarian playesr who started using speed glue back in the late 70's in the first place?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwdk871CzZw

Obviously it was not illegal then, but the hungarians did enjoy an advantage.

FdT


Posted By: panany
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:40am
now nobody use dianshi.....

chinese in national tam use : haifu, lidu or kailin :)


i talk with zhou yu by my friend few days ago he use haifu for forehand and kailin for backhand :)


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">The thread is entitled is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers. ย The four sources I have cited confirm that either "a lot" or almost all of the world's top players boost their rubbers.ย "</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Not even close. The claims on a webpage could not be considered "confirmed statements" when it is clear that the purpose of those claims is to sell equipment. It is advertising. Now this does not mean pros do not boost. I suppose they do. However the claim is not whether they boost. The claim is whether ALL OF THEM BOOST.ย </span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">My question is why are we focusing on the chinese players only? Wasn't it the hungarian playesr who started using speed glue back in the late 70's in the first place?</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwdk871CzZw</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Obviously it was not illegal then, but the hungarians did enjoy an advantage.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">FdT</span>


The Hugarian players invented and used the speed glue, but that was before the glue ban imposed by the ittf, so that was very legal and not cheating . On The other hand, as of September 2017, the Chinese are now still using the speed glue / boosters despite the glue ban imposed by the ittf in around 2006. Now that is cheating, Can you see the difference ?


Posted By: panany
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:49am
now all professional chinese player use booster ....  but if not professional yes all use yet speed glue haha


Posted By: HuLimei
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

My question is why are we focusing on the chinese players only? 

Chinese players win ONLY BECAUSE they boost (not because of training and work ethic)


Posted By: panany
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:51am
HAHA LOL





Posted By: panany
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 10:02am
now most player of national team chinese use haifu yellow ...

and most of prov player use kailin :)


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 10:20am
jackwong:

"Now that is cheating, Can you see the difference ?"

PLEASE RE-READ THE VERY LAST SENTENCE of my post. I think you missed it.

FdT


Posted By: penholderxxx
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 10:31am
'The mods should lock this thread or this man!' - ashihshamaalt

Whatever for......he did not do anything wrong. In fact, I feel his views and contributions are substantive and coherent.
If you disagree with his views, slug it out. This is what a forum is meant for; we can have and should allow robust debates; unless as pointed out, views expressed are out of topic.

penholderxxx


-------------
Iloveplayingtabletennis


Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 10:57am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

'<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">The mods should lock this thread or this man!' - ashihshamaalt</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Whatever for..</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">penholderxxx</span>

Using atrociously large fonts? ...And spamming a thread. He could have posted all of this in a single thread.


Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:03am
I would like to add a few things to this post.

I think that Chinese players get most of the criticism for boosting because they do most of the winning.
Having interacted with a lot of players at high club levels in India, China and Germany, I can tell you that most of the lot boosts in competitions.
...And most of them don't complain about others boosting. That's how professionals are.
I have often asked them as to why they boost...And surprisingly the answer is that they like the feeling (lightness is the term a player used) after boosting.
For a professional who spends a lot of years practicing, having equipment which feels exactly the way they want it to is very important...For hobby players, not so much.
Now let's talk about cost....TT events never have a big purse.
For example, a state level event which has WR top 150 players participating has the winners prize of close to 500 USD in India. Not more than 2-3 players out of a field of 300+ are sponsored. How do you expect them to pay for a pair of $70 Tenergy? They use old sheets, use H3N, use whatever they can to do the best they can.

As long as the top rubbers cost a lot, boosting will always be used to equalize the field.
Heck that is the reason I started boosting my H3N. I played 6 days a week and 3 hours a day, and even though I am a hobby player (I play around 2200), I went through a sheet of Tenergy in 1 month on the FH.
That's a lot of money in India. With H3N, I could go for 2 months with a $10 sheet.
In some places where people don't make a lot of money, it matters.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:14am
Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

My question is why are we focusing on the chinese players only? 

Chinese players win ONLY BECAUSE they boost (not because of training and work ethic)


I very strongly disagree with this.  There are no words for how much I disagree with this.


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:35am
HuLimei: "Chinese players win ONLY BECAUSE they boost (not because of training and work ethic)"

BAAL: "I very strongly disagree with this.  There are no words for how much I disagree with this."

Baal, I think that was sarcasm.

FdT


Posted By: HuLimei
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:42am
hehehe


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

My question is why are we focusing on the chinese players only? 

Chinese players win ONLY BECAUSE they boost (not because of training and work ethic)


I very strongly disagree with this.  There are no words for how much I disagree with this.

This user HuLimei likes to use logical fallacies and inane polarized statements in lame attempts to push his opinions, rather than critically thought through arguments. Just FYI. 


Posted By: HuLimei
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Baa Baa wrote:


I very strongly disagree with this.
I'm very sorry. I forgot to add one important detail: because they use Hurricane 3 as well.


Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I would like to add a few things to this post.

I think that Chinese players get most of the criticism for boosting because they do most of the winning.
Having interacted with a lot of players at high club levels in India, China and Germany, I can tell you that most of the lot boosts in competitions.
...And most of them don't complain about others boosting. That's how professionals are.
I have often asked them as to why they boost...And surprisingly the answer is that they like the feeling (lightness is the term a player used) after boosting.
For a professional who spends a lot of years practicing, having equipment which feels exactly the way they want it to is very important...For hobby players, not so much.
Now let's talk about cost....TT events never have a big purse.
For example, a state level event which has WR top 150 players participating has the winners prize of close to 500 USD in India. Not more than 2-3 players out of a field of 300+ are sponsored. How do you expect them to pay for a pair of $70 Tenergy? They use old sheets, use H3N, use whatever they can to do the best they can.

As long as the top rubbers cost a lot, boosting will always be used to equalize the field.
Heck that is the reason I started boosting my H3N. I played 6 days a week and 3 hours a day, and even though I am a hobby player (I play around 2200), I went through a sheet of Tenergy in 1 month on the FH.
That's a lot of money in India. With H3N, I could go for 2 months with a $10 sheet.
In some places where people don't make a lot of money, it matters.


+1, boosters are a great equalizers, and yes not everyone makes enough money to afford tenergy, that is the beauty of the entire thing, imho boosting is only bad when you can't do it right

-------------
http://www.bladesbycharlie.com/models/hinokighost" rel="nofollow - BBC Hinoki Ghost
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74126&title=feedback-rocketman222" rel="nofollow - My Feedback


Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 2:10pm
Read more on cost of TT rubbers here.
https://www.indiaforsports.com/campaign/pooja-sahasrabudhe


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by panany panany wrote:

now all professional chinese player use booster .... ย but if not professional yes all use yet speed glue haha


top players boost as early as 14 yo. they carry a small metal bottle with booster in their bags..there are boosters for several brands, i know booster from donic butterfly stiga nittaku but they are not sold some players will sell you secretly even some coaches make their own boosters .
i know a guy who got a tenergy from muramatsu and the smell is so strongly chemical


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Originally posted by Baa Baa wrote:


I very strongly disagree with this.
I'm very sorry. I forgot to add one important detail: because they use Hurricane 3 as well.


I still very strongly disagree.

They are better because they start younger, train harder with the best coaches, the best infrastructure, and most importantly, constant exposure to the highest level of competition anywhere on the planet.  If there was no Hurricane and no boosting, they would still be the best.

But Japan is coming up.  Will be interesting soon.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:


This user HuLimei likes to use logical fallacies and inane polarized statements in lame attempts to push his opinions, rather than critically thought through arguments. Just FYI. 


The user HuLimei is on my radar.


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 5:57pm
(Baal)  They are better because they start younger, train harder with the best coaches, the best infrastructure, and most importantly, constant exposure to the highest level of competition anywhere on the planet.  If there was no Hurricane and no boosting, they would still be the best.

Then why would the players on the Chinese National Team feel the need to contravene ITTF regulations regarding boosting, if in your considered opinion (as an authority on international table tennis or as an authority on the properties of boosting oils from a scientific standpoint) they would not need to use a rubber such as Hurricane and would certainly not need to augment its properties further by boosting oils, resort to nevertheless using boosting oils if "they would still be the best" against other national teams who use them?

At any rate, your statement is hypothetical and moot, since the sources I have cited agree that all or virtually all of the world's top players use boosting oils.  In your considered opinion as a scientist, is their any reason from a scientific standpoint that you can think of that explains why they do this?


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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:


This user HuLimei likes to use logical fallacies and inane polarized statements in lame attempts to push his opinions, rather than critically thought through arguments. Just FYI. 


The user HuLimei is on my radar.
and I thought you did not have a sense of humour


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:00pm
My explanation is not scientific. It is more sociological. I suspect nobody accepts the reasons given by Sharara for the booster rule (he once claimed it was for health reasons). Also, it is impossible to detect them without also detecting other ingredients normally present in rubber. Look, I am not here to say that nobody boosts. I think nearly every pro boosts and if they don't it is simply because (like me) they don't like the effect.

It just does not affect my enjoyment of the game. I honestly don't care. I also do not care if my opponent boosts.


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

My explanation is not scientific. It is more sociological. I suspect nobody accepts the reasons given by Sharara for the booster rule (he once claimed it was for health reasons). Also, it is impossible to detect them without also detecting other ingredients normally present in rubber. Look, I am not here to say that nobody boosts. I think nearly every pro boosts and if they don't it is simply because (like me) they don't like the effect.

It just does not affect my enjoyment of the game. I honestly don't care. I also do not care if my opponent boosts.


Would "the game", that is, the sport of table tennis as played at the world class level, be any less enjoyable for you if none of the top players played with unboosted or factory boosted/player boosted rubbers?  And if boosting a rubber, already factory boosted or not, has no significant effect on the amount of spin and speed that rubber can impart, why do you suppose that "nearly every pro boosts" if they in fact gain no advantage with respect to increased speed and increased spin when using boosted rubbers with the help of the various kinds of boosting oils now available?  This is and has been an illegal practice since speed gluing, once legal, was banned and boosting as a substitute took its place.

Could it be because both they and the ITTF know that since it is presently impossible to detect the presence of non-VOC based boosters by current devices that they feel that they can get away with boosting because unless they are actually caught in the act of using a boosting oil they can use boosters with impunity without a risk of getting caught?

A hell of a way to run the ITTF railroad and a reflection of the stupidity of the ITTF in letting this situation to occur and a reflection of the lack of integrity on the part of the world's present best players in their nearly universal practice of using boosting oils despite the ITTF's inability to enforce the very regulations they have instituted.  Whether you agree or disagree with the ITTF's regulation regarding the use of illegal boosters, it remains an ITTF rule and if a player, detectable or not, violates that rule in an ITTF sanctioned tournament by nevertheless using a boosting oil that player, caught or not caught, is a cheater and does the sport of table tennis no honor.


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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: ttTurkey
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 3:00am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:


A hell of a way to run the ITTF railroad and a reflection of the stupidity of the ITTF in letting this situation to occur and a reflection of the lack of integrity on the part of the world's present best players in their nearly universal practice of using boosting oils despite the ITTF's inability to enforce the very regulations they have instituted.  Whether you agree or disagree with the ITTF's regulation regarding the use of illegal boosters, it remains an ITTF rule and if a player, detectable or not, violates that rule in an ITTF sanctioned tournament by nevertheless using a boosting oil that player, caught or not caught, is a cheater and does the sport of table tennis no honor.


This is the part where I reach into my cupboard for a really small violin.

This happens in so many sports; the top players play to what is enforced in practice by the match officials on the day, not what is printed in the rulebook (which they may or may not be totally familiar with in many cases).

The net effect is zero, because players are neither advantaged nor disadvantaged. A few examples would be the table tennis service rule, the time that tennis players take between points, tennis players taking injury timeouts when not injured (like Fed at the Aus Open this year) and the basketball travelling rule.


Posted By: Olio
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 4:15am
Coming back to the original question...

It is difficult to formally prove such a broad statement.

However, all the pros I know boost. And all the good Chinese players I know (very good players, but not even pros) boost.

I know (and you know) what some of them use, but that does not make a big difference.

I even doubt that TB and MJ are not boosting. I think they get their treated rubbers straight from BTY (which would then be legal), but that's just me assuming.


Posted By: penholderxxx
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 4:41am
 Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:


A hell of a way to run the ITTF railroad and a reflection of the stupidity of the ITTF in letting this situation to occur and a reflection of the lack of integrity on the part of the world's present best players in their nearly universal practice of using boosting oils despite the ITTF's inability to enforce the very regulations they have instituted.  Whether you agree or disagree with the ITTF's regulation regarding the use of illegal boosters, it remains an ITTF rule and if a player, detectable or not, violates that rule in an ITTF sanctioned tournament by nevertheless using a boosting oil that player, caught or not caught, is a cheater and does the sport of table tennis no honor.

I would have agreed totally with this but for the point that; specifically for the CNT, the culprits are not the players but the administrators and coaches.
If these rascals (LOL) do not condone or allow boosting, I do not think any players would dare do it.
I think their mentality is if they will not be caught or sanctioned, then its ok; regardless if boosting is illegal or cheating.......cheating, yes; no honour, yes I agree ( but not THEM),but not the players, its the managers and coaches.
By extension, any other players who boost are also doing so with the connivance of the coaches; if not explicit orders

penholderxxx


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Iloveplayingtabletennis


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 10:29am
Berndt, I honestly don't care.

I am simply not going to argue with people who dislike the sport I play and watch; especially over idiotic stuff that ITTF does, and players response to it -- since I have no control over any of it.  In spite of Sharara's efforts to mess everything up, the product still amazes me, such as the ML-FZD final at the WTTC this year. 

I watch Chinese players closely.  They are better in nearly every dimension of the game than everyone else.  Right now the only European player who is close to their level is Ovtcharov.  Boll and Samsonov used to be, but they are passed their sell-by date (although I still love watching them).  The footwork, strength, balance, overall technique, and even tactical skills in the case of Ma Long, of Chinese players is superior.  That is not a product of any one rubber or a booster oil.  People who suggest that Hurricane + Booster are the sole reason they dominate make me laugh.


I like jazz.  I once had a roommate who thought it was very uncool of me to like it.  He was into Hair Bands.  I tuned him out and went back to my Coltrane albums.  At some point since the lease was in my name, I threw him out. 

This is a website devoted to table tennis -- as it is played now.  Keep it in mind.



Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 10:37am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF73mAu9-h0


FdT


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF73mAu9-h0


FdT


That is a very interesting video clip, FdT.  But if the RAE instrument used to detect the presence of VOCs in this particular player's rubbers cannot detect whether not the player used a boosting oil, how then can the tester determine whether or not his racket is legal, or any racket for that matter of any international player who boosts his/her racket with a boosting oil?















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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 3:55pm
berndt: the racket passed the test. That is all you need to know. That is all that matters. Anything else is moving the goalpost.

FdT


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Berndt, I honestly don't care.

I am simply not going to argue with people who dislike the sport I play and watch; especially over idiotic stuff that ITTF does, and players response to it -- since I have no control over any of it.  In spite of Sharara's efforts to mess everything up, the product still amazes me, such as the ML-FZD final at the WTTC this year. 

I watch Chinese players closely.  They are better in nearly every dimension of the game than everyone else.  Right now the only European player who is close to their level is Ovtcharov.  Boll and Samsonov used to be, but they are passed their sell-by date (although I still love watching them).  The footwork, strength, balance, overall technique, and even tactical skills in the case of Ma Long, of Chinese players is superior.  That is not a product of any one rubber or a booster oil.  People who suggest that Hurricane + Booster are the sole reason they dominate make me laugh.


I like jazz.  I once had a roommate who thought it was very uncool of me to like it.  He was into Hair Bands.  I tuned him out and went back to my Coltrane albums.  At some point since the lease was in my name, I threw him out. 

This is a website devoted to table tennis -- as it is played now.  Keep it in mind



I am well aware that you do not care that virtually all of today's best players, including Ma Long and the rest of the Chinese National Team deliberately and with intent to augment the speed and spin of the rubbers they use, boost those rubbers with boosting oils, even when the rubbers some use are already factory boosted.  You have stated that a number of times, and also stated that there is nothing wrong with table tennis as it is played now and I presume also has been played since the introduction of boosting oils.  This is, as you are well aware, contrary to present ITTF regulations.  It is by definition illegal, and therefore also by definition cheating, despite what you or I might think of the ITTF as an exemplar of intellectual eminence and scholarship sublime.

Presumably the members of the Chinese National Team, who train in such a rigorous fashion as to make a Spartan shiver, should not need to have recourse to either factory boosted rubbers or factory boosted rubbers additionally augmented by boosting oils, as presumably they do not need them.  Why then do the members of the CNT, as do virtually every other international player who competes in an ITTF sanctioned competition, feel that they have to boost their rubbers with boosting oils, a practice pretty much known to many people who follow international table tennis tournaments?

And why then should any player who willfully and deliberately ignores an ITTF regulation deserve admittance to the International Table Tennis Hall of Fame, no matter how impressive his or her table tennis accomplishments?


-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 6:21pm
You chose to ignore what I wrote about not wanting to argue about this.  I not only don't care about whether the players boost, I also don't care what you think about it. You have made your point.



Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 6:59pm
http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/" rel="nofollow - Home โ€บ http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/blog" rel="nofollow - Blogs โ€บ http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/blog/3" rel="nofollow - Larry Hodges's blog

August 18, 2015

Tue, 08/18/2015 - 12:48 โ€” Larry Hodges

Table Tennis Boosting and Why Cheating is Rampant in Our Sport

http://www.t3atl.com/speed-glue-prohibition-and-the-55-mph-speed-limit/" rel="nofollow - Here's an article  by Coach Jon Gustavason about the problems with boosting (and perhaps speed gluing) in table tennis. He wrote, "It also appeared that at least some of the players were using boosters or speed glue on their rackets. There is absolutely no way of knowing how much was taking place, since there was no attempt to test rackets and โ€” even if there had been โ€” current testing methods canโ€™t detect every possible way that table tennis rubbers can be altered."

Next to the problems with http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2176" rel="nofollow - hidden serves , this is the most abused rule in table tennis at the higher levels. The rules state, "The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment." This makes both speed glue and boosting illegal. 

Boosting is the problem, not speed gluing. Boosting on a tensor sponge gives nearly the same effect but is essentially undetectable, and unlike speed glue, has little health risks. I'd be surprised if any but a tiny minority still speed glue. First, if they did, you can hear the unique sound it makes, and we'd know. Second, it's the top players who are most likely to look for such enhancements, and they know that their racket likely would be tested at the biggest tournaments, and so they wouldn't be able to speed glue at the tournaments that are likely most important for them. Third, and probably most important, I'm told that speed glue doesn't really work well with modern tensor sponges, which just about every top player uses. So what's the point? A tensored sponge that's boosted gives the effect of speed glue without being detectable. (Also, where would they get the speed glue? It's no longer being produced by manufacturers. They'd have to go back to the old bicycle glues used in the 1970s, which aren't as effective as the ones produced later for table tennis.)

Others have protested about the boosting problem. Here's an article from Tabletennista, " http://tabletennista.com/2013/1/jun-mizutani-boycotts-ittf-for-his-battle/" rel="nofollow - Jun Mizutani Boycotts ITTF For His Battle Against Illegal Boosters ." (Mizutani is world #6.) It's a worldwide problem.

So it is boosting that is the problem. (Most estimates are that it increases spin and speed about 10%.) I'm not going to name names, but it's pretty much common knowledge that nearly every top player boosts. Not all - there are a few who simply won't do it because it's illegal. For example, Samson Dubina has gotten involved in this issue as he's a top U.S. player who is regularly handicapped because he won't "cheat," and so he doesn't boost, while most of his opponents likely do. When he complained to an official while I listened, the official simply encouraged him to boost himself, since others were doing so. Yes, as Samson can verify, the referee/umpire told him to cheat. The official also argued that few others are complaining โ€“ but that's because nearly all of the players are boosting, so of course they aren't complaining! (There's also a top player at my club who faces this same dilemma, as he refuses to boost since it's cheating โ€“ but he's getting tempted. "Come to the dark side, we have cookies and booster!")

It's somewhat similar to the problem with steroids and other performance enhancing drugs in sports. They weren't legal, but large number of players used them for decades despite the fact that they were both risking their health and their reputations by cheating. With boosting, there is little danger of either, and so it's pretty much commonplace. I've watched players routinely boost for years; many probably don't even know it's illegal. (Unlike speed glue, which is done just before playing, boosting is done well before you play, and lasts much longer.) 

I'm sure some are wondering just what boosting is. Sorry, I'm not going to tell you. I'm sure with a little research you can find it on your own. When/if it becomes legal (or essentially legal, as explained in #3 below), I'll post about it. 

So how can we solve this problem? I've already tried to solve it, but met up with bureaucratic roadblocks. Just like steroids before, many of the current generation of officials simply don't take the problem seriously - it's out of sight, out of mind thinking, plus they don't want the hassle of dealing with a mostly invisible problem - even though they are really hurting players who won't "cheat."

Let's look at this logically. I see three possibilities. 

  1. Ignore the problem, allow rampant cheating, and handicap those who won't cheat. Sorry, this isn't acceptable to me. 
  2. Spend extremely large sums of money on extremely sensitive equipment that'll detect boosting. (It would probably have to be developed for this express purpose.) Unfortunately, this just isn't affordable and so isn't feasible.
  3. Change the rules (or to resolve the problem in the U.S., just the USATT Tournament Guide) to specify that any racket that passes the racket testing procedure shall be deemed legal for that tournament. Then boosting becomes normal, and the only change is that the few top players who currently don't boost because it is illegal will no longer be handicapped since their boosted rackets would be declared legal.

Number three seems the only possible solution. Some would argue that they would still be cheating, since they have used a "treatment" on their racket โ€“ but any treatment is a matter of degree. Cleaning your rubber with water or racket cleaner is a treatment, but doesn't rise to the level that's considered a treatment. All this does is set the limit for what is considered to have been a treatment.



-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by Olio Olio wrote:

Coming back to the original question...

It is difficult to formally prove such a broad statement.

However, all the pros I know boost. And all the good Chinese players I know (very good players, but not even pros) boost.

I know (and you know) what some of them use, but that does not make a big difference.

I even doubt that TB and MJ are not boosting. I think they get their treated rubbers straight from BTY (which would then be legal), but that's just me assuming.


i heard that TB use dymax booster


Posted By: SmackDAT
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 9:30pm
OK in all seriousness, as an economics student (long paragraph[s] alert)

Considering this in terms of the table tennis economy objectively, banning tuning outright (no factory or self tuning) would cause the majority of modern table tennis rubbers to be removed from the market, which would result in a downturn and therefore reducing the popularity of table tennis, or at least an outflow from players who outburst due to missing their old rubbers, which would reduce funding for the ITTF, for example but not limited to reasons such as advertising budgets for such brands going down. And we all know what a reduced budget does for the sport, lower quality everything pretty much and the sport popularity goes way down. 

Also, a separate point is that slower table tennis play is (pretty much) objectively less entertaining than faster, witness men's vs women's tennis. Unless we're all mysogynists, the reason men are getting paid more is because of higher numbers, which proves my point.

Outright banning tuning would remove any grey areas, for example Timo or other pros claiming he doesn't boost but receiving a heavily boosted T05 that would be rock hard had it not been, and would literally mean pros would have to play with stuff like Sriver/Mark V at a maximum for speed, rubbers such as MX-P would be banned in an instant, no questions asked. 

I feel like this is a trade off between entertainment/popularity/economy of the sport for reasons I have mentioned above or morality/ethics (for lack of better words). 

I think the former is a better choice in my humble opinion. I'm not here to convince you which trade off is better, but there is a reason why the sport has moved on and I'm actually the one presenting my argument unlike someone who is just copy/pasting random articles and pictures of prott.vip (???).

Anyone else agree or am I the only one?



-------------
Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g)
Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B)
Tenergy 19 (2.1, R)
https://goo.gl/bFWoxW" rel="nofollow - https://goo.gl/bFWoxW


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 10:42pm
The rule is stupid!!

- Boosting oils are widely available.
- VOCs are not present in these oils so they are not a health risk.
- This only applies to official ITTF tournaments.
- Factory tuned rubbers make the ITTF's position ambiguous.
- The ITTF is unable to enforce the rule for lack of equipment.
- The ITTF real agenda is to slow down game play, it's not about the health risks to the players or     keep the game fair for everyone. The ITTF is in the business of making money, I don't buy for one    second they really care about the players health of fairness of the games otherwise they would deal with the issue of illegal serves which IS a bigger problem than the use of boosters.
- The new plastic ball is another effort by the ITTF to slow down the game. I don't buy the BS that it was about making it safer bc celluloid was flammable or whatever. They made celluloid balls for nearly a century, what took them so long to decide?

Sometimes rules are stupid and should be changed. For example, once SLAVERY was legal! But we recognised it was wrong and we changed the laws. The US got in a terrible civil war over it while other countries simply changed the laws regarding slavery. Another example of a failed policy....



FdT





Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 09/14/2017 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

The rule is stupid!!

- Boosting oils are widely available.
- VOCs are not present in these oils so they are not a health risk.
- This only applies to official ITTF tournaments.
- Factory tuned rubbers make the ITTF's position ambiguous.
- The ITTF is unable to enforce the rule for lack of equipment.
- The ITTF real agenda is to slow down game play, it's not about the health risks to the players or ย  ย  keep the game fair for everyone. The ITTF is in the business of making money, I don't buy for one ย  ย second they really care about the players health of fairness of the games otherwise they would deal with the issue of illegal serves which IS a bigger problem than the use of boosters.
- The new plastic ball is another effort by the ITTF to slow down the game. I don't buy the BS that it was about making it safer bc celluloid was flammable or whatever. They made celluloid balls for nearly a century, what took them so long to decide?

Sometimes rules are stupid and should be changed. For example, once SLAVERY was legal! But we recognised it was wrong and we changed the laws. The US got in a terrible civil war over it while other countries simply changed the laws regarding slavery. Another example of a failed policy....



FdT





if the game slows down you create the perfect market for table tennis companies anf new rubbers and blades will be required to adapt the new ball the ittf is the salesman of the tt industry


Posted By: penholderxxx
Date Posted: 09/15/2017 at 1:04am
Fulanodetal,
I agree with your comment.
In my opinion, ITTF should allow the use of boosters or speed glue to improve performance of rubbers.
These rubbers and sponges are already treated with chemicals and whatever base materials during the manufacturing process, meaning they are no more natural rubbers and these rubbers as we should know have different characteristics; spring technology, high tension tech etc.
If some rubber manufacturers are allowed to treat and alter the natural character of rubbers to make 'high' performance rubbers, why cant others do it; including individuals (players).
It is worth noting that in ITTF sanctioned tournaments, they have always insisted on having a well ventilated area or room for gluing purposes. Does this not say something ?
Its not particularly nice to say this or that player is cheating because he/she boosted the rubbers when manufacturers are already doing those though doing so in different manners.
I had earlier commented that the coaches are the culprits, but what do we know, they may be actually saying that since these manufacturers are already 'cheating' they might very well join in; so long as they are not caught.
At this stage, I feel ITTF should do away with this restriction. For undue advantages; there are such other requirements as in sponge thickness and overall thickness of rubbers and maybe others.
of course there is the business side of the equation but whichever way it is, manufacturers are very innovative and it certainly has been business all along. Do not believe these manufacturers are doing us a social favour; they are in for the money. 

penholderxxx


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Iloveplayingtabletennis


Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 09/15/2017 at 9:16am
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1485041144925021&id=145007505595065



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