Topspin against backspin.
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Topic: Topspin against backspin.
Posted By: baribari
Subject: Topspin against backspin.
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 1:45am
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I would like any tips people have for countering backspin (especially heavy chops) with topspin. Most of the time the ball goes into the net. I have tried starting lower and finishing higher (sometimes with my stroke being almost vertical), but I have a hard time putting it in consistently with good pace. Usually I will just push it back using the spin. I have the same problem with short backspin serves. I don't have any problem getting them back, but I have a hard time keeping topspin returns out of the net. So I stick to pushing. Thanks! I have max-thickness Yasaka Rakza 7 on both sides, for the record.
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Replies:
Posted By: Claudiu84
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 1:56am
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The swing shoulnt be almoast vertical, you must hit the ball trough the sponge. If y'are useing only the incoming speed of the ball, you will not be able to lift up the ball. You must aply your own pace, speed and power. The stroke must start lower and finish higher, with forward motion, hitting trough the sponge. Sorry for my English, I hope you understood. |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 3:22am
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It's just like looping a topspin. But it's easier since you don't have supply the topspin - ball already has the spin. So you just need to hit it low to high - just open your racquet, since ball already has the underspin, open racquet and use the same topspin loop technique and it should clear the net safely. I also like to hit the chops at the top of the bounce. ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: IneptVirtuoso
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 3:42am
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Almost any heavy backspin ball coming off the table should be looped using a long and often quick stroke. The angle of the stroke (vertical, horizontal) should be dependent on the speed of your arm stroke and viceversa. The faster your stroke, the less vertical your paddle should be. Here's is a step by step explanation of how you should hit those balls: First, you're in a neutral position with your hand and paddle in front of you. Knees bent and in an attacking position. Your knees should be bent and you should be low and slightly leaning forward to create a spring-like effect from your body to add power to your shot. As the ball with heavy under-spin is approaching you, you will drop your arm about knee high to create some momentum for your upcoming topspin stroke (remember to be low with knees bent and slightly leaning forward). When you're ready to bring your paddle from next to your knee, you will simultaneously bring your knees and body up along with your paddle and arm with the wrist almost totally relaxed. Also, remember to hit the ball at the highest point of its trajectory or slightly before it. When an under-spin ball is hit beyond its highest point, it's very likely that it will end up in the net as it becomes more difficult to pick up. And lastly, just hope for the ball to land :) Keep in mind these things: 1. Knees bent, 2. Slightly leaning forward, 3. Relaxed wrist, 4. Whip motion (drop hand then bring it up), 5. contact ball at highest point, 6. and most important, ALWAYS LOOK AT THE BALL! I hope I was of some help. If someone wants to correct some of my advice, please do so, we're all here to learn. ------------- In a rather unfortunate turn of events, I've officially joined the EJ club. My wallet is complaining, my heart isn't. Care to know what I own? You don't want to know. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 7:36am
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I won't tell you how to loop backspin - there are too many videos for that and a stroke is a stroke. But I will provide some tips/food for thought. 2. Penholders usually have absolutely no problem doing looping backspin/chop because they whip their wrists with max acceleration/speed at point of contact. So have a loose wrist, no matter your grip. 3. When approaching heavy spin, it is often helpful to avoid the main spin axis to make the ball easier to attack/return. 4. Opening the racket angle is necessary to counter the effects of really heavy backspin. The #1 reason why most people fail to loop heavy backspin is a refusal to open the paddle to sufficiently counter the backspin. Opening the racket doesn't mean going over 90 degrees - usually, 90 or maybe a 100 degrees is enough for even the heaviest backspin if you use sufficient racket head spin. It does mean that you have to use a far more more open motion than you use vs. topspin. 5. That said, because of the risk of overhitting because you overestimate the spin, only drive high backspin balls and slow spin/lightly brush low ones with plenty of margin until you have practiced your looping stroke well enough to know its limits and you can read the ball perfectly. 6. If the ball is high with backspin, you still need to open your racket and start beneath the ball but aim to finish higher on the ball. No matter the height of the ball - avoid lifting without a forward motion of some sort, even if only to the side after you make contact with the ball. 7. Time the ball so that your loop stays in the same plane if the backspin is too heavy to drive. (thanks to bes for his post for reminding me of this one). THerefore, don't hit forward and cover the ball - keep your racket angle the same and don't hit into the ball. Backspin is not topspin - it can often slow down and stay high, or it can skid quickly through the table - in either case, timing the ball so that your acceleration meets the back of the ball at the right time is crucial. 8. Backspin is easier to loop if you shift your feet to slight favor your looping motion. For a forehand, left foot should be in front of right for a right-handed player. It's even more critical to get this alignment with your stroke when driving the ball. There are lots of videos on looping backspin out there so the rest is practice. But the biggest tip is getting really good racket head acceleration. If you can do it with your arm, great, but most people use a whip motion supported by core and knee action. The reason why it takes so many people time to loop backspin and why their level jumps up when they do it properly is that it is the greatest test of generating consistently good racket head speed with good technique that commonly shows up in a match. It's actually not hard and there are tricks that one can use in the short term to make the process easier (learning to wrist loop backspin, which many try to do but don't get right because they miss the tick in the wrist whip and are forced to muscle the ball). But if you focus on generating racket head speed and brushing, the level of opponent and how much backspin he can create with a motion you cannot read becomes the issue, and not the backspin itself. Xu Xin has the best loop vs. backspin in the world. Watch his loop. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 9:09am
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Yeah not much I can add past what Next Level said. That's great. I'll just say this on my own personal account. I have moments where I judge the backspin ball and determine if I need to execute what I call my "soft loop" or "power loop" and it's largely based on if I consider the shot to be low percentage or not. Soft Loop: If the ball is low my soft loop is a high arching ball that clears the net easily and loaded with spin. The goal for me here is not to hit a fast ball. It's it hit a high arching, spinny ball that easily clears the net every time setting up for the next ball. Sometimes with players who might now expect this might hit the next ball off the table because the amount of topspin. If playing a modern defender, I have no worries about soft looping until I get a high ball. They're most likely going to keep chopping anyways. What you have to watch out for is an aggressive player who might think to attack that high arching ball vs say just blocking it or chopping again. Power Loop: If the ball is higher up and easier to attack, then that's why i'll go for a more powerful loop that is a little flatter & faster trying to end the point. It's a tough skill to learn but if you have someone at your club who is good at chopping, have a practice session with them where they simply stand back and chop while you try to get consistent, soft loops in back to them. Your feel for it will grow considerably and once you have that, you'll feel more confident going for stronger, more powerful shots.
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Posted By: bes
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 10:59am
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You have some good tips above, but I'll add one "Big Picture" thought for you and describe one very common problem. To lift backspin over the net effectively, your blade speed up the back of the ball needs to exceed the speed of the surface of the ball. This stroke - whether going for mostly power, mostly spin, or a mixture need pretty serious blade speed. This explains why some players - with REALLY fast strokes - can loop pretty heavy chop with impressively closed blades and low stroke angles. Most of my students initially struggle with this shot due more to timing than blade speed or even technique. (Note that "really good topspins" will be much easier to execute, stronger, and more consistent with better technique.) What commonly happens is that they start their stroke a bit (or a lot) early, then, when it becomes apparent that the ball isn't in the hitting zone (yet), they do one or both of the following:
Obviously, deceleration is a killer. If the blade slows to "less than ball surface speed", they either have to REALLY open their blade angle or dump the ball in the net. Making significant blade angle adjustments mid-stoke is not a great answer. Even when they pull it off, the resulting shot is generally really weak and relatively dead. Changing the stroke plane is also a killer. Stroke plane change clarification: A player intends to topspin with, for example, a 45 degree stroke plane - and they have adjusted their blade angle for this stroke. Unfortunately, they start their stroke early, hence the ball is too far forward and they won't be able to even touch it with a 45 degree angle. Their solution is to change their stroke plane angle to something like 30 degrees to make contact with the ball. Sadly, their blade angle is now almost always too closed and the ball rarely clears the net. One reason why "early" is a common mistake is due to the "checking up" effect of backspin balls. Balls with topspin bounce forward (and usually fairly low), dead or low spin balls leave the table a bit higher and slower, and backspin balls lose speed and bounce more "up" than forward. If this slowing down tendency isn't accounted for, players will tend to be early pretty regularly. Oh, and it appears that the 40+ balls exacerbate this a bit. They seem to check up more than the celluloid ones did. Also, new balls check up much more than "shiny" ones. Good luck! bes |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 11:29am
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Contact... Further away from the handle... Catching the ball higher up the rubber produces efficient loops... If you catch the ball at the bottom of the rubber, the minimal contact will hinder your loops... ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 11:31am
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Ive found that many people with this problem actually struggles more to read the amount of spin then they struggle with actually liftning it. If it is in fact a problem with liftning heavy backspin, have a friend chop/push hard to you and loop with a very open blade. Dont bother with keeping the ball low, simply make sure to loop so you clear the net safely. Once you feel confident at doing this, then its time to correct the angle of your blade and try to loop with more forward momentum. This is much easier once you know you have the ability to lift it back. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 11:41am
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The only thing I would add is to wait for the ball to start dropping and then swing up into the descending ball. Basically wait until the mid or late descending phase of the ball trajectory after top of bounce. This will give you more time to adjust your position and swing, as well as allow more time for the spin to dissipate. Once you get your consistency up you can contact the ball closer to top of bounce and drive the ball harder. ------------- DHS 301 Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 11:49am
This is really important - added my own version of it to the list - thanks. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
bes wrote:Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 12:38pm
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Sound... If you hear the "Thock" of your blade, you are hitting not brushing the ball.. "Thock" - Results in more of a driving motion, which can be done but produces a flatter faster ball... The almost silent sound of sponge brush contact is beautiful to behold...  ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 2:03pm
The part about matching the tangential speed of the ball is what I have been saying for years. What I don't agree with is the
I find reaching forward means my paddle is going more forward than up and the ball goes into the net. Sometimes the loop must get close to the table to hit the ball rather than waiting for the ball to come to the looper. As pointed out above the ball sometimes doesn't bounce forward as fast. One must move forward and swing up rather than reach forward and hit the ball into the net. When I get tired this is my biggest problem. I have posted this a few times before. It is in my favorites. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: bes
Date Posted: 04/08/2015 at 5:06pm
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You are disagreeing with something that was never said. Your chosen quote takes my original statement completely out of context. I never said or implied that reaching forwards was a good, ok, or correct thing to do... My post stated the opposite. bes
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Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 04/09/2015 at 5:10pm
The tips laid out were very useful and when combined with watching appropriate videos and doing some drills should help acquire the technique needed. However I think the above quoted sentence is a mistake - probably a typo or angle miscalculation - you cannot open the racquet at 100 degrees to do a loop.... at 100 degrees it would be a push.... 90 degrees you cannot loop either... as the bat would be totally vertical. the motion to loop vs underspin is up and forward... slightly more up than forward compared to looping vs a no spin, top spin or side spin ball... Nevertheless for a good loop the racquet face should never be more open than 75 degrees at the very most... and the motion should still be roughly a 45-50 degree stroke but the face of the bat needs to be at about 75 degrees vs heavy backspin... opening the face of the bat more will not allow good contact and result in you just "lifting the ball over" not looping it. ------------- OSP Virtuoso (Off-) MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/09/2015 at 6:02pm
It's really not worth debating. I'll just say I meant what I wrote and if it's wrong, I'll accept the error until I am forced to demonstrate it in a video and can't do it. If you get a copy of Danny Seemiller's TT book, you will see this paddle angle provided for looping heavy backspin. There are many techniques for looping heavy backspin, and this angle is key for some of them. It may just be terminology, but we play TT so I am not concerned with the words as much as the strokes. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 04/09/2015 at 6:36pm
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90 degree is a right angle = completely vertical (unless we understand 90 degree to be something different) - to my knowledge one cannot loop with that angle - it would be a flat hit /drive if the arm is going forward and moving up and forward you would be just lifting the ball not looping it... the ball would probably just go down anyway... It may not be worth debating because as you said this may just be a terminology mix up, but the intention of your post was certainly to be informative and therefore, it seems to me that it is worth clarifying... 1) If the bat is at 90 degree completely vertical - one cannot create New spin vs the opponent's spin 2) if the bat were at 100 degree (actually tilted backwards) you would be pushing, or if you are flicking the wrist, you would be flicking at best... I have never seen a video in which a pro was looping with his bat at 90 degree or tilted backwards beyond the 90 degree point... if you have an example it may prove very enlightening. ------------- OSP Virtuoso (Off-) MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 04/09/2015 at 6:37pm
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I agree with NextLevel opening the racquet makes it easy to loop underspin shots. Best thing to do is to try and it and see if it works. It works for me. ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/09/2015 at 7:29pm
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Jrscatman, Clarence247 is debating how open the racket can be. Clarence247, I have read your concerns. All I can say is that it is not worth my time right now to address then in detail. Pros have extremely fast racket head speed but some of them will with short pips, for example, will roll the ball with angles greater than 90 degrees. Others players who are not necessarily pros can use open racket angled like 90 degrees or more to counter the backspin before driving through it. Finally, some may do a vertical stroke time to brush the ball or even push it forward with a 100 degree angle. All these shots are topspin shots. Whether they are technically loops is a terminology issue (some are maybe "dummy loops") but none of them are pushes as I understand the term because they are all supposed to impart topspin and they are all supposed to continue the spin on the ball. As jrscatman said, you can get a chopper and try it. Sometimes it is really about where your first contact with the ball is made. At other times, it can be a purely vertical stroke that uses the incoming pace and spin of the ball to just add spin to get it over the net. It all depends on your looping technique. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 04/09/2015 at 8:05pm
When I first started playing hardbat, one of the first things I worked hard on was attacking underspin ... either pushes or chops. In my mind, I thought about keeping the racket face very open - even having it tilt backwards beyond 90 degrees. More specifically, I was thinking about contacting the ball below its middle so as to lift the ball. That's what was in my mind when I was teaching myself how to topspin back underspin and what I thought I was actually doing. But when I went to the trouble to record my stroke on video, I found that I never even opened the racket face as much as vertical. And that's with hardbat which requires a much more vertical and open stroke than inverted. I'd be surprised if anything resembling a loop is produced with inverted using racket faced angles even approaching 90 degrees. You certainly can topspin balls back with a 90 degree or greater racket face angle, but such shot will almost surely produce a relatively slow paced ball and wouldn't be considered a loop by most. In short, I think the racket angle may be much more vertical in our minds when we contact the ball than it is in fact. That certainly the case with me and hardbat. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 04/09/2015 at 9:20pm
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Opening the paddle past 90 degrees to return a chopped ball is not looping. The ball will go back with less spin than it had coming in. What wturber said is looping. OK so a hard bat can't loop a ball by itself but it certainly can when there is already a lot of back spin on the ball that now becomes the hard bat players top spin.
Sure you can. The paddle must simply have a tangential speed faster than the balls angular velocity. The problem is that the same tangential force that creates extra spin may also make the ball go to high or long. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 04/09/2015 at 10:26pm
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just noticing that good players don't let the ball drop that much , they go up/forward to the ball ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 04/09/2015 at 11:03pm
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If you're standing 10 feet from a 20 foot wall and I asked you to throw the brick over the wall, you would bend your back knee, lower your arm and throw the brick over the wall. Use the same motion to loop a heavy backspin ball |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 2:12am
Hardbat doesn't react as much to spin so the stroke is hardly the same though I agree in principle with your position on racket angles. There is also the question of how heavy the chop you were lifting was. But my point is simple - whether it is called a "loop" or not, it is possible to topspin a heavy chop with an angle greater than 90 degrees. Racket angles can compensate for the (in)ability to generate sufficient racket head speed.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 3:18am
juanito
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Posted By: Hopper
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 5:02am
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Happened to excersize topspin loop on backspin last night with Robopong 2050 robot (= heavy backspin). Also happened to do earlier mentioned alternatives:case 1. Return with 90 degrees angle with contact point at back of ball (3 o'clock) case 2. Return with 60-75 degrees angle with contact point a little higher on ball (2 o'clock) For both cases it is important to swing from low to heigh and have enough racket head speed. For case 1 , it appears to me. it is even more important to have a fully relaxed wrist and body (legs/waist combination). As soon as their is some tension in the body, the backspin grips on the bat and the ball goes down in the net. The moment I relax the body, the effort to bring the ball over the net goes down thus the return becomes much easier. The return for case 1 is a "slow" high return (upto 1 feet above the net) that lands deep on the oppnent's half of the table. The return for case 2 is a faster and lower return (1 -3 inch above the net) that lands halfway the opponent's half of the table.
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Posted By: viktorovich
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 6:05am
| ? 90 degrees relative to the table or the trajectory of the ball (for example ball is already below the table) ? |
Posted By: Hopper
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 7:33am
90 degrees to table/floor surface. Optimum timing of contact to be slightly after top of curve (descending ball) but it is possible to return with same technique if ball is below table surface. you just have to bend those knees a little more......
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Posted By: baribari
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 9:57am
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Today I had little trouble hitting typical backspin shots by just aiming up a bit, but against a chopper I had no such luck. If anything I had more success by simply hitting them flat but fast, but only about 1 in 10 avoided hitting the net. Trying to aim high made them sail long, starting low and finishing high just put them in the net.
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Posted By: dajdosta
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 10:36am
Excuse me how can you be sure it is 90 degrees? Did you filmed it and analyzed?
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Posted By: bes
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 10:49am
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baribari, If you could post a short video of yourself looping against pushes and chops I'm pretty sure you'd get some help. Without seeing your stroke, timing, blade angle, and stroke plane it is impossible to give precise suggestions. Do you have access to a coach? Assuming you don't have a coach handy, it might be best to work on this against medium or even medium light pushes - at least until you get the timing down and get more relaxed and comfortable with the stroke. ANY tension (too much grip pressure, tight hand, wrist, forearm, elbow...) tends to really drop blade speed, which is a killer. As mentioned before, timing is critical. Your backswing should immediately (or darn near immediately) flow into your stroke. Don't drop your blade too early! Your backswing is like winding a spring - but a spring that only stays wound for an instant. If you stop at the bottom of your backswing too long, this "spring effect" tends to disappear. Bend your "playing hand" knee as you rotate your shoulders back and down, then push off with it when you swing forward and up. Your off arm should move with your playing arm! Imagine they are tied together with a string. Use the off shoulder and arm to pull up and around. This gets your shoulders and core involved. Feel free to add a little "elbow" through contact. Finish the stroke high. Even "really high" is ok - whatever helps you get the feel. Watch any top player playing a chopper (plenty on youtube or ITTF-TV). Ignore their "Kill" loops for now, but pay close attention to their normal and control loops. See how relaxed they are. Watch their timing. Watch their stroke angle. Watch their blade angle. Watch their movement and positioning. Watch their finish position. Watch several players and see if you can find one with a similar body type/playing style as you - or kind of close. It isn't essential, but some players are longer and slower (e.g. Samsonov) and others are quicker (FZD or ML) Next, get in front of a large mirror and duplicate what they did. Do it very slowly. VERY SLOWLY. Get every detail perfect - ready position, foot position, posture, backswing, blade angle(throughout), stroke plane, (imaginary) contact, finish, return to ready position. Do this many, many times - yes, your family/friends, and pets will think you are crazy - it will really help. This "shadow training" will help teach yourself how to put it all together. Doing it slowly - even painfully slowly - works fine. Your brain needs to learn the sequence and positions - these are the same at any speed. After doing this carefully for several hours (over a couple days) you can gradually speed up the shadow strokes - but be careful to keep everything in the correct sequence and hit all the correct positions. I recommend doing this a bunch before trying to play. This will help you get your technique down without stress or confusion - or fear of failure. Sleep on it at least twice - your brain can do magic overnight! I recommend not opening your blade too much. "Open blade" strokes can help get the ball over the net, but yield a less spinny ball that is pretty easy to attack. This type stroke is finet as a deceptive "dead loop", but it is normally only effective when mixed in with normal, spinny loops. I do not, however, think it a good learning tool for a proper spinny loop. Also, while I'm sure there are some who really have this shot down, most (admittedly these lower level - guys and gals struggling to learn to loop) that I see using the open blade technique are fairly erratic - tiny blade angel changes seem to have big effects on the trajectory. Good Luck! bes
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Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 10:52am
Yes, it is true that racket angles can compensate for racket speed if the goal is to simply return the ball and even to return the ball with topspin. You do not need high racket speed to simply return a chop. However, you do need high racket speed and a more closed racket face to return a chop aggressively. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/10/2015 at 10:55am
Yes. I think people who are complaining about what I wrote have not played seriously heavy chop that tests the limits of their technique. Don't underestimate what the pros do. It's one thing to loop a opening push and another to repeatedly loop backspin against a decent chopper. Some of you will be surprised to have to finish your loops behind your head to get the ball over the net on some chops. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 04/11/2015 at 12:09am
A picture being worth at least 10,000 words, here's a good example corroborating what your last post was saying, NexLevel. It was taken at the semifinals? quarterfinals? (I can't remember) of the 1998 U.S. Hardbat Singles Open, with Danny Seemiller, both feet off the ground and follow through high over his head, topspinning a heavy chop from Marty Reisman, to Reisman's backhand side. I suspect that his racket was somewhat closed, i.e., 10-20 degrees from the perpendicular at impact, and he put the force of his entire body, from feet on upward, into that forehand topspin.
------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: baribari
Date Posted: 04/12/2015 at 11:41pm
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I found yesterday against a chopper with medium to backspin that by looking at how the ball bounced off the table (which obviously is different from a topspin shot) that I could do the mental math and guess where how to hit the ball to make it go in... which worked OK but not enough to win points consistently against a strong defender. Being able to hit a single chop back is good, but meaningless if you can't do it several times in a row if you're playing a good chopper... which is my least favorite type of player to play. Actually, I would intentionally hit high serves to temp them into returning them with some pace and topspin, because I can deal with those shots much easier than with pushes, chops, and junk shots. I suspect what I was actually doing last time wasn't so much looping it back but simply pushing it (with racket at 90 or slightly open) back really fast. That player in particular has much stronger backspin, and I had no luck at the time looping it back except for a few lucky shots. I will try the technique I found the other day next time... But I had zero luck with simply using my knees and a vertical stroke. In this case, my rubber might simply be too fast for me, and too susceptible to spin. No, I'm not going to record my practice and put it online. It would be too embarrassing. Yes, I have coaches but one of them only speaks Chinese... lol. For what it's worth, I don't have much of a problem using the vertical stroke technique to return backspin shots in multiball practice. It's only against a full-on chop that I have problems. And what does hardbat technique have to do with modern table tennis? Are not hardbats more or less spin-free (or at least not susceptible to spin).
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Posted By: Hopper
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 10:03am
I used a triangular set square.....
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Posted By: bes
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 10:49am
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I've used hardbat to help a number players with their strokes... While there are certainly some things that are easier with a hardbat, there are a lot of things that are tough. One critical thing is that, with a hardbat, you HAVE to hit forward through the ball. This is true whether the ball has topspin, no spin, backspin, or heavy backspin. Just "lifting" the ball won't get the job done. There are a pretty good number of folks at my club that too often use their rubber as a crutch. Rather than getting into position and actually stoking the ball, they often reach out and bump it, wrist it, or do several other things I don't have names for. Often these lazy half-hearted strokes "sort of" work thanks to their rubber, but they still aren't generally effective or consistent. Putting a hardbat in their hands is the quickest way I know to illustrate (to them) that they are not actually stroking the ball. After they see that the ball just drops or bounces short of the net when they are too passive or simply stroke across the ball, they usually realize they need to actually stroke forward if they want to hit the far side of the table. Even a short session with a hardbat can really help their stroke. As a bonus, their footwork usually also improves since it is easier to stroke the ball when you are in a "decent" position. For the record, this experience has damaged none of their inverted games - every one of them was soon hitting better - often much better - shots with their inverted. I'm certainly not promoting hardbat as a cure all, but the fact that it isn't inverted doesn't make is useless - even for inverted players. bes
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Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 11:08am
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That's an interesting point - I should try hardbat trick. One of my challenges is to make my FH stroke less vertical. Practicing in front of the mirror helps a bit, but there is no immediate feedback from the ball. ------------- USATT: ~1810 Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 11:18am
Practicing in front of the mirror is better than using a hardbat. Hard bats have their benefits but note that the racket angles are different. The real feedback should come from a higher level player/coach watching or analyzing your stroke, which is why people who are not willing to post at least some of their practice online, even if temporarily, are not going to get any fixes if they don't have someone coaching them in person. IT's too easy to lock in and shadow practice bad habits in this sport because the mind likes to deceive itself. We all look like Ma Long in our heads, but the camera always tells the truth. Moreover, the camera's truth is only visible to those who can see what it is really saying. Spin quality is only one of many important things - optimal technique has things like stroke consistency or making the body parts function properly together built into it as well, and you aren't going to tell that by looking at the spin on the ball. That said, the spin on the ball reveals timing, and that should always stay with you or improve even when your technique changes.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 12:09pm
I think this is very true. You need real feedback to improve, unless you are extremely good at imitating good players...which is rare. Using a video camera or phone camera is cheap and you can learn a lot from watching it yourself. Better yet, there are some experienced people on this forum who will offer free advice if you post footage and ask questions. I'm relatively new to forums and I'm kind of shocked that people don't post their footage and take advantage of the free advice from NextLevel and good regulars here. Cheers, Brett ------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 8:26pm
My point in introducing my hardbat experience was that even with relatively low spin hardbat, agressive topspin returns will still be more closed than 90 degrees. And no, hardbats are not more or less spin-free. Nor are they immune to the effects of spin. Also, modern table tennis includes a wide variety of surfaces including short pips with no sponge. Depending on the equipment that you are using, hardbat techniques can be directly or indirectly relevant. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 9:46pm
Could be so, but - this strikes me as a simple drill that appears to be valuable since it forces you to do one thing right and get the feel for the right motion. Sort of like one of these golf swing tips/exercises where they would tell you to put a towel under your armpit and swing so it stays put etc. It is not going to produce pro-level swing, but it isolates one part of the swing/stroke and provides immediate feedback. Yes, I get the point about the bat angle, but it's not aimed at that. You'll notice that Brett Clarke does the same in his videos with frisbee, bear, golf club and I'm sure something else - as long as it gives you a decent hint about correct motion, it is useful, I think. ------------- USATT: ~1810 Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 9:56pm
It takes some courage to post the footage, and it is a bit of hassle to make the videos. Not a lot, but still. Also - in almost 2 years at the club I don't think I saw anyone videotaping themselves. Yes, it probably says something about why people play TT there (more focus on fun, less on competition/ratings). Also, I think signal-to-noise ratio on the forum is not super high - most of the time you have no idea who is offering you advice, be it equipment or technique-related. And let's be fair, it is mostly equipment around here - note how long "Pictures of my blade" thread is  By the way, really enjoy your (and William's) videos on ttEdge - recent subscriber here. ------------- USATT: ~1810 Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 9:58pm
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Hardbat techniques can be directly relevant to the club player who depends on his sponge rubber covered racket to do most of the work in continuing or reversing spin, without the necessary (in order to improve as a player) incentive to incorporate efficient weight transfer, footwork, or offensive force and defensive bite. Whether offensively or defensively or all-round, it is difficult to advance much beyond the lower club level without the ability to move to a moving ball in such a manner as to stroke it back to your opponent or practice partner with a mixture of spin and force, particularly when using a racket with inverted sponge as a would-be contemporary attacker. It's pretty difficult to play effectively with a hardbat without at least decent footwork and weight transfer. With sponge, as bes has pointed out, you can see some pretty funky stuff from your typical club type that nevertheless is of limited effectiveness as the ball is an inanimate object and doesn't care how it is hit. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 10:24pm
Hey, if you want to do hardbat, go for it - just don't see it as a substitute to what I have suggested. My basic point is still that shadow swinging in front of a mirror is more important than hard bat, and that ultimately, you need the right form anyway and hardbat is not going to correct your form - only a coach or an expert eye will, or a view of yourself informed by expert commentary - as an example of what I said, as a TTEdge member, watch the Ben series and see how he can get instructions, make progress and still copy the wrong form. You also see another example of this on my thread at OOAK where again, I am told the correct form and I do something like it sometimes and I do something different at other times. And I had myself on videotape and had to be told to do the right thing all the time and to prioritize that thing over other things I thought were more important. There's a reason why Brett does what he does (and trust me, he put me through weeks of frisbee tosses and floor serves). If you don't want to post your video online, you can send it to him directly with an unlisted link and he will tell you what he thinks. If you want to improve rapidly, do that and forget the hardbat and you will cut your improvement time at least by 50%. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 04/13/2015 at 10:32pm
Hey pgpg, when BRS posted his forehand hit, I was surprised that the comments were solid. Perhaps I ignored some of the noise and just focused on the reasonable stuff, but the advice looked okay and definitely better than nothing. And you're right...it sure does take some courage to post footage although nobody cares about mistakes as much as one thinks. We've all seen thousands of people struggling with their backhands and it's not really a big deal. You are right about the equipment thing too. I know I shouldn't really talk about equipment, but I'll say this. Your technique and ability to read the play is 99% of the battle. Cheers, Brett ------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke |
Posted By: baribari
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 3:25am
Oh, OK. For some reason I was thinking hardbat was just with the wood...
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Posted By: baribari
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 3:33am
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For what it's worth, I seriously doubt a typical cellphone video would be a useful tool for coaching in this particular case. If anything, you would need a high-quality high-speed video taken from a tripod. I will just make sure I get plenty of backspin multiball next time... Does anyone have any more videos similar to https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=64&v=Dld67Quv0lg ? In this video, it's pretty clear he's using a very vertical stroke.
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Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 4:07am
baribari, I see you aren't a fan of 1080p smart phone cameras that be attached to a tripod these days and replayed back instantly in HD. Fair enough. Maybe I'm wrong and my advice is misinformed. In relation to the YoutTube video of Austalian player William Henzell, I know a guy that coached him for quite a few years and still helps him with his game etc. I could ask him about this "vertical stroke" if you like? ------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke |
Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 4:14am
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I just found a way to work on looping a strong backspin ball when I am alone. That is to position the table closer to a wall. Adjust the distance according to your power. Then you can start your topspin loop against the wall and let it bounce back. You will get backspin in return proportion to the amount of topspin you put in. Could be a tough exercise but lots of fun. The point is that you need a racket with spiny rubber to make a strong topspin otherwise the backspin will be minimum and too easy to lift. You can test the amount of backspin by just touching the return ball with an open bat. If it shoot right down then you are on the right track. Worth a try. ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: baribari
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 9:03am
By typical I meant shot off-hand. I know it could be useful in most cases (judging overall form), but I think in this case you would need high-speed video (much slower than smartphone slo-mo). The difference between going into the net and getting onto the table is pretty slim when you're looping a hard chop. I would welcome any details on the strokes of high-level players, of course!
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Posted By: baribari
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 9:06am
| For what it's worth, I just rewatched that video at 25% normal speed, and realized he's starting his stroke below his knees and finishing above his head. |
Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 9:19am
If I am not mistaken, Brett Clarke was (is?) William Henzell's coach, so he would be asking himself about 'vertical stroke'. His post above desperately needs a lot of smileys , since subtle humor does not travel well on the Internet.------------- USATT: ~1810 Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
Posted By: bes
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 9:39am
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Super quality video is almost certainly not needed. I strongly suspect that 720p@30fps would give a perfectly fine overall view of what you are doing. Fine enough for an experienced coach to pinpoint - or at least really narrow down - your problem(s). I would be fairly surprised if your issues required a detailed slo-mo break-down and precise blade and stroke plane analysis. 720p@60fps would likely be almost overkill. This is absolutely not a critique of you - it is based on my experience and that of several coaches I know. I rarely use anything more than this while coaching. Occasionally higher frame rates can help, but that is an exception rather than the rule. The overall timing, flow of the stroke, balance, foot position, weight shift, backswing, stroke plane, and finish position are all very telling and all can be seen in even "average" quality video. If you WANT to look at slo-mo, the iPhone 6 can do 240fps, which is pretty impressive. If you mark your ball with stripes and have pretty good light, you'll be able to see some pretty cool stuff. But I suspect that fixing your big-picture "looping backspin" issue can be resolved without this. Good Luck either way! bes |
Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 9:47am
This works even better when hitting vs glass or wood (2nd best) rather than the wall - I have a big closet with a big glass door (thick glass - no damage) and position the table there - the amount of underspin on the 2nd ball is really incredible - it also works hitting against a wooden door preferably not solid. Yet no matter how monstrous the backspin is I swing up AND forward, and maintain a 75 degree angle - of course a lot of racket speed and power - this is the only way to produce a quality dangerous shot - if the aim is just to get the ball back on the table it's a different thing - but in that case pushing back makes more sense. ------------- OSP Virtuoso (Off-) MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 9:51am
+1 I totally agree with this wturber - in fact normally not returning it this way is more of a disadvantage vs good player... it would almost be better just to short push back rather than giving the opponent an easy soft ball with slight topspin waiting for him to kill it! ------------- OSP Virtuoso (Off-) MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
Posted By: zhijie
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 9:51am
A video worth a thousand words :) Hope it helps. See videos below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c9YJyUEoC8&feature=related" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c9YJyUEoC8&feature=related (See how William play against long pips...heavy backspin) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hq0atvT5Lk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hq0atvT5Lk |
Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 9:52am
Don't forget there was a prize with my thread. You get what you pay for. LOL About posting footage, think of it this way, people see you playing in the club and at tournaments and they are right there. If it isn't embarrassing to be seen live, why is it different on a forum? It's because you can see yourself, it's nothing to do with other people. And if you don't want to see yourself, really accurately see what you are doing now, it is going to be difficult to make changes. You are not doing what you think you are doing. The camera and tripod I use cost less than $300 together. I'm sure you could get perfectly usable ones for less. I think it has been good value, compared to a few hours of coaching or a down payment on an SZLC setup.
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Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 10:03am
Thanks so much for smileys pgpg. It certainly appears that I need them as I resorted to posting humor that was solely for my own entertainment. As baribari likes William's play off backspin, I'll ask William to post some tips here. ------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 11:04am
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The best example of a control loop vs backspin right now is probably Xu Xin's. I am mainly referring to his efficiency. He looks super comfortable making that shot. The problem with emulating his solution, besides him being penhold, is the length of his take back. That's a big arm swing. However the problem is not the swing it's timing the ball with a swing that big. The up side is blade velocity at ball contact is more than adequate. It might be worth a try to get the feel and more importantly to relax more during the stroke. There is not a lot time pressure either. XX vs JSH Theres always the ZJK vid which is a good reference. Same stroke as XX essentially just not as much take back and more "explosive" torso opening/hip extension. Blade angle and stroke plane angle are fairly clear. Slight BH biased/neutral grip. Fan- bigger straight arm back swing than ZJK closer to XX. Executes pretty fast though. Neutral grip I will throw Timo in here as well in case you use a FH biased grip as the stroke mechanics are slightly different. Requires more bend at the elbow. ------------- DHS 301 Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 4:24pm
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This, taken from Volume III of Tim Boggan's History of U.S. Table Tennis might be worth a try, if you're a well-coordinated intermediate looper who has trouble against backspin. This single stroke brought American hardbat to its knees, not to rise again in a somewhat different guise 35 years later at the 1998 U,S, Open. Here is a brief description of the fh loops employed back in 1963 by the English loopers Stan Jacobson and Derek? Baddeley. [Loopers wait for the ball to fall until it gets maybe two feet from the floor, then, as the player drops his body-weight onto his back foot while keeping the shoulder of his playing arm well down, up in a flash comes his racket in a knockout uppercut…only, to use an analogy, as if some cosmic force were to swing at the ball-shaped planet Saturn, the intent would be to send it hurtling into space by brushing its rings; meanwhile, the body-lunge transfers the weight to the front foot, and the free arm is used as a counter-weight: whereas earlier it had been raised as the playing arm went down, now it’s quickly brought down while the playing arm is swinging to finish the stroke overhead]” (TTT, May, 1963, 19). I do not know what inverted rubber Jacobson and Baddeley used; probably D-13, but this prehistoric loop drive was devastating to a chopper's game and those of us who heard about this new development thought to ourselves there goes the neighbood; a terrible beauty? is born. This type of loop, in which you barely graze the ball with a vertical racket face, sending it high over the net (maybe a foot or so) so that it lands within about 6 inches to a foot on your opponent's side of the table, can probably be counterlooped down your throat by an advanced player with sound counterlooping technique. But for an intermediate player willing to practice it, judiciously used it might seriously break up a chopper's game, as its extreme spin makes it both difficult to chop or counterloop. Who knows? D-13 compared to today's rubbers is very housebroken, but throw one of these skyscraper loops with Tenergy or Omega or Bluefire or whatever against your friendly neighboorhood chopper and it's Katie bar the door.
------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: baribari
Date Posted: 04/14/2015 at 11:58pm
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What does the last part mean? Would it be trouble for the looper or the chopper? Also, Zhang Jike's stroke is starting about a foot off the floor and finishing above his head. The angle he seems to be using is a little bit more open (but still less than 90 degrees) than that of a typical topspin forehand..
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Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 04/15/2015 at 12:45am
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(baribari) What does the last part mean? Would it be trouble for the looper or the chopper? ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: baribari
Date Posted: 04/15/2015 at 1:25am
| I'm up for anything that gives choppers a hard time... hehehe |
Posted By: beenaamsa
Date Posted: 01/06/2021 at 11:48pm
| This can be a difficult stroke to learn. Increasing speed is a matter of trusting the movement of the stroke and getting your arm to move faster through the stroke. At first you will have to forget about trying to get the ball on the https://bestpingpongs.com/best-ping-pong-table-under-500/" rel="nofollow - table and just think about getting the arm to move faster. Also make sure you are getting a good brushing contact on the ball to get the lift. Also make sure your rubber has some grip to be able to lift the ball. |